Vindicator has far too much evades, blocks, defense to be doing the amount of damage, and aoe damage that it does, what's the philospophy?

[Flowki.7194]

2 hours ago, Master Ketsu.4569 said:

Revenant tends to get more complaints than warranted when it has a playable meta build because it's "cheese mechanic" is not as easy to understand or obvious to people as the cheese that other classes have access to. 

Every class has something cracked in its favor. IE Thief has stealth spam cheese, Mesmer has attacking-while-defending cheese, Warrior has assloads of sustain cheese, Ele has a ton of skills that lack meaningful counterplay/can't be blocked or evaded cheese, etc etc list goes on. All of these are annoying, BUT they are also pretty easy to understand.

Revenant's cheese is only understood by playing the class and actually getting somewhat good at it - which is that the low cooldowns plus energy system can either be dumped into offense or defense, and this allows rev to kite and chain blocks/evades for a very long time. This leads less savvy players to complain a lot because top rev builds will seem like they have too many defensive actions in relation to damage access. What they don't realize, is that this ability to chain defenses is no different than a Thief saying "Peace out" of a fight and just going into stealth to reset, because while a Rev is chaining defenses, it doesn't have as much energy for offense. If you see a Rev use something like 'Riposting shadows->Block->Riposting shadows' you now know they have no energy for a PT Burst combo for at least 10 seconds. So it's not actually as broken as it first seems.

When you take the time to learn Rev, opposing Rev's actually become the easiest class to for you to deal with in the game, because unlike other classes cheese, Rev's cheese has much more counterplay since it's predictable. If you see a Rev using certain skills, you know whether or not they have enough energy for certain combos, and thus always know what is coming. But at low skill levels, players just don't know how Revs energy system works at all which makes it seem very OP especially if the Rev player also understands their opponents class. More-so than any other matchup in the game "Revenant who understands opponents class mechanics VS any other class being played by someone who doesn't understand Rev mechanics" is the biggest shutout. The same is true for every matchup, but for a Rev to kill a player who doesn't understand Rev is always BIGTIME child's play. This is why silver/golds complain so hard when a Rev build is meta, because a good rev during a season that has an actual competitive rev build will just endlessly farm bad players out of spawn by taking advantage of the low cooldowns. As a plat+ rev main myself I have taken advantage of this to gatekeep probably hundreds of gold players out of high rated games because as soon as I notice someone doesn't know how to fight Rev I will place them on free-farm for the rest of the game. I am not sorry. 

It still amazes me the amount of plat players who try to CC when I exploded tablet right infront of them. Anything past the cookie cutter herald/vindi builds see no light of day (including hammer), and it shows to me clearly when fighting players I know are decent. There are some very strong support/condi builds across vindi/core, I have a current vindi hammer support that has the most cleanse possible in this game+massive utility, and people still try to load it up with condi when I'm hard countering it in a very specific way, which has counter play if they know how (as some do).

Edited April 25 by Flowki.7194

[Eddbopkins.2630]

Having weapon skills that do evade frames is one of the worst ideas to be implemented into this game. Every class had the same amount of dodges and chances to evade damage and out play your emeny. But not anymore some special classes get way more opportunities to dodge then some because of weapons that have evade frames. It's just another reason why this game can never be fair, fun, and competitive 

Edited April 25 by Eddbopkins.2630

[ArthurDent.9538]

16 minutes ago, Eddbopkins.2630 said:

Having weapon skills that do evade frames is one of the worst ideas to be implemented into this game. Every class had the same amount of dodges and chances to evade damage and out play your emeny. But not anymore some special classes get way more opportunities to dodge then some because of weapons that have evade frames. It's just another reason why this game can never be fair, fun, and competitive 

Yeah, all classes should have the same mechanics just with different particle effects so that we can get balance.

[arazoth.7290]

4 minutes ago, ArthurDent.9538 said:

Yeah, all classes should have the same mechanics just with different particle effects so that we can get balance.

Okay, now I get the sarcasm 😁

[Zekent.3652]

The whole 1st page talking about warrior in a post bout Vindi💀

[Lighter.5631]

seems like in mAT warrior is just cap bot in a burst meta where everybody just zapping and nuking.

seems like it is the only side noder that can cap something without getting exploded, since everyone else are just nuke and run, that's about it with warrior, cap point in a 1v1..can barely actually kill anyone too as people can just run away

Edited April 26 by Lighter.5631

[Mythras.2091]

On 4/20/2024 at 4:35 PM, arazoth.7290 said:

You never played revenant I guess in general.

I want you to try this challenge, full glass renegade shiro/kalla stance invo/deva traitline shortbow+ staff as weapons in ranked.

Tell me how it went ;).

 

Let me give you the builds to try even what I am using atm =>

Renegade: Kalla stanca/assassin stance

•Devastation traitline: 1-2-2

•Invocation traitline: 3-2-1

•Kalla traitline: 1-3-1

Berserker amulet/ rune of the eagle /relic of the sunless.

Shortbow => sigils of cleansing + energy

Staff => sigils of escape + energy

 

I tried your build and from my casual g3 point of view its very nice. I played something like this before the spirit rework with dwarf, but now its super fun. The build has a nice burst, teleport + sbow 5 can surprise anyone with blocks and the spirits shall be taken serious (Kalla for president!). The incredible amount of life steal can work wonders for long term survival, though i played it with Resistance rune to help against condi a little.

It is vulnerable to focus and without a decent team (or any team like formation) the spirit utility its not that good. I tried to 1v1 with it, for me its a kill or be killed: if someone survives the burst, its hard to run away and reset. Also, condi and cc is a problem, if enemy has daze mes, condi necro and condi tif (and they will likely have 2 of them), you need to play super careful.

Aaand for the topic: i liked your build much more than death-drop hammer vindi 😛 If you play hammer vindi, your dodges are predictable and your burst is hit or miss. Someone mentioned 3 heals, lol 😄 You have to cicle through those to have a decent heal yeah, but you need to use those skills and you cant do a thing during this: no block, no counter pressure and by the time you finished you lost the amount of health from attacks that makes equal to any other heal and have no legend swap or might be dead. CC and focus kills this build too, as any other.

[Terrorhuz.4695]

14 hours ago, Master Ketsu.4569 said:

Revenant is a class favored by the best players, and the best players tend to win

 

[Myror.7521]

I found it actually realy funny. That they nerfed Warriors dmging role in strength line cause it does too many dmg. But then they bring in something like vindicator who is doing litterly the same but even worse xD. 

Actually the only annoying stuff in it is. That it can pretty mutch Dodge everything another class got to somehow doing dmg on it. But since the Dodge also do dmg its just like a "me Press Dodge me counter Play you multiple Times cause i can Press it so many Times" scenario xd

Edited April 26 by Myror.7521

[Unknown.6851]

I'm inclined to agree. But it's because I don't like vindis design, anything to keep its mechanics away..

[arazoth.7290]

5 hours ago, Mythras.2091 said:

I tried your build and from my casual g3 point of view its very nice. I played something like this before the spirit rework with dwarf, but now its super fun. The build has a nice burst, teleport + sbow 5 can surprise anyone with blocks and the spirits shall be taken serious (Kalla for president!). The incredible amount of life steal can work wonders for long term survival, though i played it with Resistance rune to help against condi a little.

It is vulnerable to focus and without a decent team (or any team like formation) the spirit utility its not that good. I tried to 1v1 with it, for me its a kill or be killed: if someone survives the burst, its hard to run away and reset. Also, condi and cc is a problem, if enemy has daze mes, condi necro and condi tif (and they will likely have 2 of them), you need to play super careful.

Aaand for the topic: i liked your build much more than death-drop hammer vindi 😛 If you play hammer vindi, your dodges are predictable and your burst is hit or miss. Someone mentioned 3 heals, lol 😄 You have to cicle through those to have a decent heal yeah, but you need to use those skills and you cant do a thing during this: no block, no counter pressure and by the time you finished you lost the amount of health from attacks that makes equal to any other heal and have no legend swap or might be dead. CC and focus kills this build too, as any other.

Nice you liked it, kalla isn't 100% there how they probably imagined it after rework but oke.

I made it with shortbow/staff on renegade to show certain things can be done too and you don't need to be vindicator hammer. Aside that I have a higher cleave build for renegade I like to use too 

Renegade: Kalla stanca/assassin stance

•Devastation traitline: 1-2-2  Salvation 3-2-2(If enemy team has like 3 or more condi builds, you take salvation)

•Invocation traitline: 3-2-1

•Kalla traitline: 1-3-1

Berserker amulet/ rune of the eagle /relic of the sunless.

Hammer => sigil of cleansing +sigil of energy

Greatsword => sigils of escape +sigil of cleansing

 

I just love using hammer even before the buffs months ago, because it's a longer ranged power weapon. This should help you some against condis. 

Greatsword can be used for some extra more cleave if you can afford it. Or for kiting away, a leap and block can help with this and then other evades from shiro in case.

With this you can potentially 1v1 actually still some pretty nice amount if done wel and with obstacles used for kiting and so on. The 1v1's I have done with this vs thiefs, willbenders, DH's power ele's, engineer in general, harbringers (reapers you counter less because they have less projectiles ofc.) I have won till now. There are some more to list but you get the idea, it's more then possible although It's not made for 1v1's

[Arheundel.6451]

The same arguments every time...

"My build takes skill, you lose because you suck"

But the interesting part is how the fotm build for how "skill intensive" it is , will happen to be rather common always  , enough to warrant several nerf threads. 

Skill intensive builds are neither common or meta for the class most times than not

Common =/ skill intensive...walking with a chip on the shoulders won't change that  

P.s may I add something more?

More often than not, the same individual on a different build on the same class...gets steamrolled by the same "nab" they just trashed  a moment ago while using their "skilled build" and when that happens...ha it's because I am now the one running the cheese build and that's why I won...and that comes from the "nobility of pvp". 

Ha..forgot to say that when I win and they lose...I was a on a core spec and they weren't on their fotm spec...but ofc I am the nab and they're pro

The gw2 playerbase full of individuals with integrity and honesty...

Edited April 26 by Arheundel.6451

[youle.5824]

Someone doesn't get sarcasm, Arthur was referring to the fact every team had one staff spb side noding at quarter final and above, and no vindis. But this is also not representative of current state since war staff got big nerfs after so..

[ArthurDent.9538]

1 hour ago, youle.5824 said:

Someone doesn't get sarcasm, Arthur was referring to the fact every team had one staff spb side noding at quarter final and above, and no vindis. But this is also not representative of current state since war staff got big nerfs after so..

Correct but the original op (there are at least 2 threads merged together) was saying vindi should have been hot fixed along with staff spb. Hotfixes are typically reserved for builds that dominate the meta and are required on every competitive team not a build that can't even get into the semifinals of the last monthly. People wanting hotfix nerfs to your favorite class as soon as it becomes  mid tier meta viable after over a year of mediocrity is obnoxious. Btw, hammer vindi still rarely seen in my q's, I'm still not seeing the problem everyone else is having against it.

[Shao.7236]

Imagine my shock seeing that people complain about Vindi being bloated. Haven't been saying that ever since it's been reworked at all.

[Myror.7521]

@ArthurDent.9538 Well vindi now or less is Played by most top Players rn. Cause its clearly OP. And yes i say its OP. I would never telling a build OP but hell this one is xD. Also i think the reason why not everyone is playing it is .... cause peops don't know when to dodge stuff xd

[Sereath.1428]

1 hour ago, Shao.7236 said:

Imagine my shock seeing that people complain about Vindi being bloated. Haven't been saying that ever since it's been reworked at all.

Buddy here feels that their core revenant builds would be winning tournaments if Vindicator didn't exist.
(No, it was the same case when Power Herald was a thing. For them, Power Herald-Shiro needed to be gone from the game because core rev is the real way to play revenant, it is just that for around a decade no one has ever been good enough for it. Not even the top players.)

Edited April 27 by Sereath.1428

[Yerlock.4678]

14 hours ago, Unknown.6851 said:

I'm inclined to agree. But it's because I don't like vindis design, anything to keep its mechanics away..

Yep, vindi’s design is just awkward. “Let’s make a rev spec that jumps on people with damage from the sky.” I mean sure thief has a similar dodge skill with daredevil, but that’s just a grandmaster trait. The entire spec doesn’t revolve around that. So much of vindi’s focus seems to be evades and orbital bombardments from the sky with dodge spam there needs to be more to it than that in my opinion.

[Flowki.7194]

15 hours ago, Myror.7521 said:

I found it actually realy funny. That they nerfed Warriors dmging role in strength line cause it does too many dmg. But then they bring in something like vindicator who is doing litterly the same but even worse xD. 

Actually the only annoying stuff in it is. That it can pretty mutch Dodge everything another class got to somehow doing dmg on it. But since the Dodge also do dmg its just like a "me Press Dodge me counter Play you multiple Times cause i can Press it so many Times" scenario xd

What are you actaully smoking? Vindi is nowhere near what staff SPB was, and the specs fill completely different roles anyway. Ive been dueling and doing unranked all week and hammer vindi is rare, unlike WB/SLB/power necro/power mirage. Sides are still pretty much the same; Warrior/druid/holo/SLB/WB/thief. Infact ive seen more heralds lateley than hammer vindi.

 

It just makes me laugh at peoples perceptions in this game. SLB/Mirage for example, still dropping people in under 3 seconds from stealth, and regularly doing it in group fights. WBs still TPing into 3 people, and getting away.. the plate virsion of thief. Still 2x necro per team, with mass AOE cc and now decent mobility, I mean.. where are all the vindis? are they in 2s only?

 

I get it, nobody likes death drop, but this thread is rediculous. 

39 minutes ago, gmmg.9210 said:

Yep, vindi’s design is just awkward. “Let’s make a rev spec that jumps on people with damage from the sky.” I mean sure thief has a similar dodge skill with daredevil, but that’s just a grandmaster trait. The entire spec doesn’t revolve around that. So much of vindi’s focus seems to be evades and orbital bombardments from the sky with dodge spam there needs to be more to it than that in my opinion.

 

Hammer vindi does not revolve around that either,  the real burst is in landing hammer abilitys, and it does not have as much dodge spam as people make out. You also need to use dodge for the damage buffs before burst, regardless of somebody being in melee range or not. The sword abilitys are very telegraphed, if the enemy has a dodge/block and is not CC'd (hammer vindi has poor CC) then its easily avoided damage. The issue is that its like ele, there are a lot of abilitys and you have to know what ones should be dodged. That isn't easy ofc, but it is better than 1 hit wonder specs, like zerker rifle or DH when it was kitten <dodge this 1 ability you win, don't dodge it you lose>. Hammer vindi is not like SLB or power mirage, if you die in under 5 seconds to it, you kitten up, it is in view, it has very low CC output, and every hard hitter is well telegraphed. It is also not like WB, where you have to wait out blocks and stab indefinately during its burst, with vindi, you can CC between dodges/burst, at any time, if you time it right. Just landing 1 CC/condi bomb on a vindi can really fk the burst up, as stun breaks are not cheap on energy, and condi will force a defensive reaction.

 

Im not defending death drop damage here.. just reality checking the statements that are expanding 1 bad mechanic across the entire spec.

Edited April 27 by Flowki.7194

[Shao.7236]

57 minutes ago, Sereath.1428 said:

Buddy here feels that their core revenant builds would be winning tournaments if Vindicator didn't exist.
(No, it was the same case when Power Herald was a thing. For them, Power Herald-Shiro needed to be gone from the game because core rev is the real way to play revenant, it is just that for around a decade no one has ever been good enough for it. Not even the top players.)

I never said anything like that. You can stop lying.

[arazoth.7290]

1 hour ago, gmmg.9210 said:

Yep, vindi’s design is just awkward. “Let’s make a rev spec that jumps on people with damage from the sky.” I mean sure thief has a similar dodge skill with daredevil, but that’s just a grandmaster trait. The entire spec doesn’t revolve around that. So much of vindi’s focus seems to be evades and orbital bombardments from the sky with dodge spam there needs to be more to it than that in my opinion.

There is a lot more, that part you describe is just a fraction of it, but you rather keep glasses on to not see it 🤷

[arazoth.7290]

1 hour ago, Shao.7236 said:

I never said anything like that. You can stop lying.

Tbf you don't have to exactly say it, we all know you think core rev should be it and the 1 real working rev e-spec nopeee.

 

[arazoth.7290]

power vindi is again some available but not even seen a lot compared to many others, not even in the mood anymore to list it you all have eyes I hope.

But people can't have it when rev in general is some available in pvp again and want it instant nerfed back. Because they don't want to learn fighting it/ counter building their spec around it...

3 hours ago, Myror.7521 said:

@ArthurDent.9538 Well vindi now or less is Played by most top Players rn. Cause its clearly OP. And yes i say its OP. I would never telling a build OP but hell this one is xD. Also i think the reason why not everyone is playing it is .... cause peops don't know when to dodge stuff xd

Also you clearly stated you still easy take them out. Compare that to OP builds in the past that a beginner could start playing kt and suddenly they could go toe to toe with others having much more experience and even killing them.

It clearly is not at that level, it's strong yes, too strong nope. It's not even like you see multiples in teams or if 1 doesn't has a vindi it's instant lost, it's not like that even...

 

[Shao.7236]

9 minutes ago, arazoth.7290 said:

Tbf you don't have to exactly say it, we all know you think core rev should be it and the 1 real working rev e-spec nopeee.

Gaslighting me won't change anything, Vindi current design is bloated and it's a fact. 

[arazoth.7290]

2 minutes ago, Shao.7236 said:

Gaslighting me won't change anything, Vindi current design is bloated and it's a fact. 

Lets get it to core lvl yes, that's how you like it, not gaslighting, speaking facts only