New Professions or Elite specializations.

[draxynnic.3719]

5 hours ago, VocalThought.9835 said:

Although I'm not for them adding a new profession, I can see the benefit of a player starting a new character. They just need to continue with adding action oriented game play, bring more role-playing elements, and sharpen the story writing.  After this expansion would be the perfect time for them to introduce new races, make racial skills have some purpose in PVE, and add new game modes to PvP and, hopefully a new GvG.

I still think they they should add a final elite specialization, including a new weapon, wrapping up any loose ended themes that currently exists within each profession.  

Oh, I'd prefer to see at least one, possibly even two elite specialisations introduced per profession as well. Would give them to opportunity to properly address some neglected archetypes (ranged elementalist, elementalist with less than four attunements, proper support warrior, bard mesmer, etc). Just noting that the investment required for that might actually be on the order of making a new weapon.

It's particularly worth noting that in EoD ritualist feels like it's almost replaced elementalist in Cantha and they seem to have gone to some effort to implement ritualist NPCs - it could be interesting if, at some point, a future expansion going deeper into Cantha brings ritualist back, with some explanation to the effect that ritualist PCs were some other profession until they took the opportunity to become a ritualist sometime after EoD. Mechanically this would be basically the same as was done with revenant - you'd make a new character and be able to play through all the regular story as a ritualist, it's just that canonically ritualists weren't present in Tyria until after EoD.

[VocalThought.9835]

On 7/25/2024 at 9:50 AM, draxynnic.3719 said:

Oh, I'd prefer to see at least one, possibly even two elite specialisations introduced per profession as well. Would give them to opportunity to properly address some neglected archetypes (ranged elementalist, elementalist with less than four attunements, proper support warrior, bard mesmer, etc). Just noting that the investment required for that might actually be on the order of making a new weapon.

It's particularly worth noting that in EoD ritualist feels like it's almost replaced elementalist in Cantha and they seem to have gone to some effort to implement ritualist NPCs - it could be interesting if, at some point, a future expansion going deeper into Cantha brings ritualist back, with some explanation to the effect that ritualist PCs were some other profession until they took the opportunity to become a ritualist sometime after EoD. Mechanically this would be basically the same as was done with revenant - you'd make a new character and be able to play through all the regular story as a ritualist, it's just that canonically ritualists weren't present in Tyria until after EoD.

Is it just me? I feel that Revenant  kinda loosy embodies all the missing classes from GW1. Shiro is the Assassin, Jalis is the Paragon, Ventari is the Monk, Mallyx is the Dervish, and Kalla, as well as the overall theme, is the Ritualist. Because of this, I can't see them ever adding anything more than a "Ritualistic" feel to the other professions.

[VocalThought.9835]

On 5/4/2024 at 6:00 PM, Antycypator.9874 said:

EoD showed us that there's barely room for "new" specs. Half of them is literally copy-paste X class mechanic to Y class, e.g. Necromancer (shroud) -> Specter. Ranger (pet) -> Mechanist. Engineer (weapon kit) - > Bladesworn. Daredevil (playstyle&mobility) -> Willbender. They're not NEW elite specs. You probably played them for years.

I thought the point of an e-spec was to 1) kinda of have a dual class feel, 2) bring aspects to a profession that's missing. I know that there are similarity between professions, but I don't think they were going for creating something totally new.

Edited September 13 by VocalThought.9835

[VocalThought.9835]

On 6/14/2024 at 4:21 PM, Purple Effects.2503 said:

I’d disagree, 

Everything bardish about the class is pretty much RP. 
 

I agree. I don't understand the fascination of a player singing a song or playing a lute in an action combat game, but who am I to judge. I simply find the current skills on point because they have the effect you expect Bard skills to have, but I get they don't have the animation. 

Edited September 7 by VocalThought.9835

[draxynnic.3719]

5 hours ago, VocalThought.9835 said:

Is it just me? I feel that Revenant  kinda loosy embodies all the missing classes from GW1. Shiro is the Assassin, Jalis is the Paragon, Ventari is the Monk, Mallyx is the Dervish, and Kalla, as well as the overall theme, is the Ritualist. Because of this, I can't see them ever adding anything more than a "Ritualistic" feel to the other professions.

Yeah, it probably is just you. The assassin successor is the thief. Kalla is ritualist-esque, but one legend of two does not make a ritualist. Ventari is a healer, but focusing that healing on the tablet makes that legend feel more like a ritualist healer (it's a bit of a shame from that perspective that healren hasn't worked for years). Jalis, Mallyx, and Glint all feel like they're embodying different versions of dervish rather than separate professions.

[VocalThought.9835]

9 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Yeah, it probably is just you. The assassin successor is the thief. Kalla is ritualist-esque, but one legend of two does not make a ritualist. Ventari is a healer, but focusing that healing on the tablet makes that legend feel more like a ritualist healer (it's a bit of a shame from that perspective that healren hasn't worked for years). Jalis, Mallyx, and Glint all feel like they're embodying different versions of dervish rather than separate professions.

I did say loosely... lol. I wonder what suggestions you would have for a new elite specs added to Revenant that would make them feel more in line with a Ritualist?

[draxynnic.3719]

6 hours ago, VocalThought.9835 said:

I did say loosely... lol. I wonder what suggestions you would have for a new elite specs added to Revenant that would make them feel more in line with a Ritualist?

From me?

None.

It's not possible, however much some people claim it would be. It's hard to think of something more fundamentally ritualist-esque as a revenant elite specialisation than renegade is already. The problem is that Jalis, Shiro, and Mallyx are all melee-oriented legends, so unless you're a healer (and that would require boosting Kalla's healing abilities), any "ritualist" elite specialisation that's intended to be damage-oriented is still going to be spending roughly half of its time on a melee-oriented legend, and while melee ritualist was technically possible, it's not exactly what people think of.

Hypothetically speaking, if someone was to try to make a revenant build that reproduced ritualist, it'd need to be a new core legend. I'd probably go with Lord Odran in that case.

The other problem that I see with attempts to turn revenant into ritualist, though, is that ritualist in GW1 was a profession characterised by a high degree of customisability. Revenant, by contrast, is the opposite of that even by GW2 standards - every legend has a set group of skills that they can't deviate from. As a result, if I was going to try to make a profession more ritualist-like through an elite specialisation, I'd probably start with another profession such as necromancer.

[Dadnir.5038]

2 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

From me?

None.

It's not possible, however much some people claim it would be. It's hard to think of something more fundamentally ritualist-esque as a revenant elite specialisation than renegade is already. The problem is that Jalis, Shiro, and Mallyx are all melee-oriented legends, so unless you're a healer (and that would require boosting Kalla's healing abilities), any "ritualist" elite specialisation that's intended to be damage-oriented is still going to be spending roughly half of its time on a melee-oriented legend, and while melee ritualist was technically possible, it's not exactly what people think of.

Hypothetically speaking, if someone was to try to make a revenant build that reproduced ritualist, it'd need to be a new core legend. I'd probably go with Lord Odran in that case.

The other problem that I see with attempts to turn revenant into ritualist, though, is that ritualist in GW1 was a profession characterised by a high degree of customisability. Revenant, by contrast, is the opposite of that even by GW2 standards - every legend has a set group of skills that they can't deviate from. As a result, if I was going to try to make a profession more ritualist-like through an elite specialisation, I'd probably start with another profession such as necromancer.

It all depend on one's perception of the GW1's ritualist.

Most people think "spirit" and objectively there is nothing closer to GW1's ritualist's spirits than... Mesmer's clones and fantasms. Alternatively, revenant do have Kallah's legend skills (not really close to GW1's spirit feel)

Some would say "Ashes" which was basically a clunckyer version of revenant's legend system.

Some would say "Weapon spells" and, well, the closest thing we got to that are boons.

The last component would be the lightning attribute of the ritualist's spells and there you'd have to look at engineer and it's scrapper e-spec to get the feel.

Obviously, thematically, we could have a necromancer that deal with ghost and evil spirit but, so far, necromancer seem to prefer to become the ghost/evil spirit rather than dealing with those.

Objectively, Revenant just need a "mesmer" e-spec alongside a weapon with "lightning" visual on it's skill to be a "GW1's ritualist".

Should the devs do just that? Probably not. In any way, no matter how many hint like Saint victor's urn for example they add to the revenant, the players will still be unsatisfied and looking out for a successor of the ritualist where they want it to be (In any way, none of the GW2's professions really fit GW1's professions, apart from some skills name and visual thematic, they are all vastly different).

[draxynnic.3719]

Yeah, I think that realistically, most people thinking "ritualist" are thinking of the spirits. The rest is essentially... supporting themes. In a GW1 context, spirit weapons were basically a unique spin on enchantments which could not be stripped but where a particular target could only ever have one at a time, while ashes were a unique self-buff that replaced your weapon. Because it was generally only practical to have one spirit weapon or ash skill on your bar at a time, they usually weren't the defining characteristic of ritualists - sure, you could then build the rest of your bar around that skill, but in practice if you weren't bringing spirits you were generally just emulating another profession (usually elementalist or monk).

Which is part of the reason I raised necromancer as a possibility. Both were themed around using magic oriented around the dead, and GW2 necromancer already has spectral themes, so building off necromancer would probably work, especially since Rt/N minionmancers were a thing so even the existing minions aren't too far off base.

Mind you, an observation I've made previously is that ritualists feel like they've essentially replaced human elementalists in Cantha (there are Ministry of Security Sorcerers and Sorceresses, who appear to be fire elementalists, but in terms of enemies, you tend to find Purist or Speaker ritualists taking the role of "heavy area attacks forcing you to reposition to avoid being blasted" role you'd normally expect elementalists to fill). So elementalist could be a possibility - weapon conjures already kinda behave a bit like spirit weapons and ashes, and it probably wouldn't be too hard to find a justification for ghostly manifestations of other elements than just lightning. Guardian also canonically draws from ritualist teachings for some of their skillset - guardian does have a similar issue to revenant in being designed for melee, but it's probably still easier to make ritualist work as a guardian elite specialisation through virtues, traits, and utility skills that support a ranged build.

I'd say that Kalla is already about as much of a "mesmer" e-spec as revenant should have - they just went with a weapon involving firing arrows through mists portals instead of conjuring lightning from the Mists. I get that people want that specific theme back (honestly, GW2 is pretty bad at facilitating a satisfying lightning theme in general), but I tend to think that it's a bit of a waste for revenant to just copy themes and playstyles other professions already have: revenant is conceptually the opportunity to go crazy and come up with themes that wouldn't otherwise be available to players. Other professions, after all, have to keep within established themes, while revenant can, in theory, copy anything. It's part of the reason I was disappointed with vindicator, since Archemorus and Viktor could have been represented through having inspired a fighting style that developed into a modern elite specialisation on one of the other professions.

[Dadnir.5038]

9 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

It's part of the reason I was disappointed with vindicator, since Archemorus and Viktor could have been represented through having inspired a fighting style that developed into a modern elite specialisation on one of the other professions.

Vindicator's fighting style is quite unique, thought... And you could probably imagine that it inspired daredevil...

9 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Because it was generally only practical to have one spirit weapon or ash skill on your bar at a time, they usually weren't the defining characteristic of ritualists - sure, you could then build the rest of your bar around that skill, but in practice if you weren't bringing spirits you were generally just emulating another profession (usually elementalist or monk).

I don't quite agree with you on the fact that it ended up being emulating another profession. The feel of playing with ashes was very unique not just some kind of emulation.

9 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Mind you, an observation I've made previously is that ritualists feel like they've essentially replaced human elementalists in Cantha (there are Ministry of Security Sorcerers and Sorceresses, who appear to be fire elementalists, but in terms of enemies, you tend to find Purist or Speaker ritualists taking the role of "heavy area attacks forcing you to reposition to avoid being blasted" role you'd normally expect elementalists to fill).

You certainly didn't encounter enough jade brotherhood that reckt your team with doubledragon (Yeah, I've been wiped one to many time by this move and I never managed to make it work that well myself. On another hand I was in love with the unsteady ground elite skill that can be found in the jade sea). The **** kappa with their water magic rock that hit like a truck and leave you stoned. The blinking "dragons" in the crater with their impossible aggro range... etc. Elementalists were there in Cantha, everywhere and as deadly as possible (in fact, in my opinion it felt like there were to many elementalists NPC in faction). I'm not saying that ritualists weren't in a dominant position but that's supposed to be cultural. However I just can't agree with your claim that ritualists replaced elementalists.

10 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I'd say that Kalla is already about as much of a "mesmer" e-spec as revenant should have - they just went with a weapon involving firing arrows through mists portals instead of conjuring lightning from the Mists.

Kallah is closer to a turret engineer than a mesmer. But, yeah, creating "rifts" that vomit damage was a ritualist thing as well.

 

If necromancer's shroud can be shamelessly spread to so many other professions (druid/specter), I don't see why mesmer's clones and fantasms can't be spread as well.

How about a thief that leave after image of himself as clone? Or even make his own shadow fight together with him?

How about a necromancer that send spiteful spirits/ghosts to haunt his foes?

How about rangers summoning animal or plant spirits to fight alongside him? They can already create image of some animals when using specific skills, what prevent them from going further? Why can't they even get a pet that summon clones of itself like a mesmer with a beast skill that would allow the ranger to blast those clones?

 

[draxynnic.3719]

4 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

Vindicator's fighting style is quite unique, thought... And you could probably imagine that it inspired daredevil...

Mostly because of the dragoon jump, which pretty much came out of nowhere - there's no indication that either of the vassal pair could do that in life. They clearly wanted to have it, but it could probably have been worked in to any other legend they could have come up with - heck, if the dragon-themed elite didn't already exist that would have been a more fitting choice.

4 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

I don't quite agree with you on the fact that it ended up being emulating another profession. The feel of playing with ashes was very unique not just some kind of emulation.

Eh. In practice, usually ashes ended up working in one of three ways:

1) You used it to charge up channelling skills, behaving similarly to an elementalist.

2) You used it to charge up support skills, behaving similarly to a monk.

3) You dropped it for an effect, generally either a support skill or a PBAoE attack that you could precast, thereby most likely behaving similar to a monk or a PBAoE elementalist

4) Some combination of the above.

They were a unique effect in GW1, to be sure, but you generally weren't making an entire bar of them, and in a GW2 context ashes would probably be just another weapon-replacing bundle item of many.

4 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

You certainly didn't encounter enough jade brotherhood that reckt your team with doubledragon (Yeah, I've been wiped one to many time by this move and I never managed to make it work that well myself. On another hand I was in love with the unsteady ground elite skill that can be found in the jade sea).

Please tell me where you've encountered jade brotherhood that wrecked your team with double dragon in Guild Wars 2.

I killed plenty of them in GW1 - with more success than you by the sound of it, I usually brought some form of interrupt or CC to keep them from doing too much damage - but I thought it was been evident from my reference to both friendly and hostile entities in Guild Wars 2 that I was talking about GW2, not GW1. And I think my observation holds there. Purists and Speakers have ritualists everywhere, but I don't think there are any human elementalists you fight in End of Dragons - instead, ritualist enemies and bosses have the sort of mechanics you'd normally expect from elementalists, just with big spirits making it even clearer that a big attack is coming.

(In GW1, I think elementalists probably had similar social standing to ritualists. The Jade Brotherhood was presented as the "spoiled rich kids" counterpart to the Am Fah which mostly recruited from the poorer rungs of society, and I think the original profession mixes reflected that - the Jade Brotherhood mostly represented the more prestigious professions while the Am Fah had those that you were more likely to see among the underclasses. Canthan upper-class society in GW1 also had a few elemental references such as the original four ministries.)

4 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

The **** kappa with their water magic rock that hit like a truck and leave you stoned. The blinking "dragons" in the crater with their impossible aggro range... etc. Elementalists were there in Cantha, everywhere and as deadly as possible (in fact, in my opinion it felt like there were to many elementalists NPC in faction). I'm not saying that ritualists weren't in a dominant position but that's supposed to be cultural. However I just can't agree with your claim that ritualists replaced elementalists.

Ahem.

"Mind you, an observation I've made previously is that ritualists feel like they've essentially replaced human elementalists in Cantha (there are Ministry of Security Sorcerers and Sorceresses, who appear to be fire elementalists, but in terms of enemies, you tend to find Purist or Speaker ritualists taking the role of "heavy area attacks forcing you to reposition to avoid being blasted" role you'd normally expect elementalists to fill)."

I hope I shouldn't have to tell you that kappa and dragons aren't human. Mind you, the kappa in GW2 also seem to have lost their water magic (although the naga made up for it... which is ironic, since in GW1 kappa were often the elementalists of naga packs).

But while End of Dragons have plenty of human enemies, they seem to be pretty much every profession but elementalist. There are those Ministry of Security sorcerers and sorceresses I mentioned, but most people probably don't even notice them because they're not enemies. Naga, saltspray dragons, wardens, kirin, and possibly others, but not humans.

4 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

Kallah is closer to a turret engineer than a mesmer. But, yeah, creating "rifts" that vomit damage was a ritualist thing as well.

Which just makes it more ritualist-y, because ritualist was originally conceived as a way to bring turret engineer gameplay into a relatively low-tech setting.

4 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

 

If necromancer's shroud can be shamelessly spread to so many other professions (druid/specter), I don't see why mesmer's clones and fantasms can't be spread as well.

How about a thief that leave after image of himself as clone? Or even make his own shadow fight together with him?

How about a necromancer that send spiteful spirits/ghosts to haunt his foes?

How about rangers summoning animal or plant spirits to fight alongside him? They can already create image of some animals when using specific skills, what prevent them from going further? Why can't they even get a pet that summon clones of itself like a mesmer with a beast skill that would allow the ranger to blast those clones?

 

Well, technically all of those, or things like them, already exist, so it would just be expanding on existing themes.

I don't think any of them really need to be copying clones/phantasms specifically so much as being some kind of short-term summon, though.

Edited September 9 by draxynnic.3719

[Twilightmage.8309]

Give me an ele spec where you are locked to one attunement but it's amped up to heck and back.

[Panda.1967]

3 hours ago, Twilightmage.8309 said:

Give me an ele spec where you are locked to one attunement but it's amped up to heck and back.

So something along the lines of…

”Primal Elementalist, gain access to weapon swap, Attunement may only be changed outside of combat. Traits that previously triggered on attunement swap now trigger on weapon swap when attuned to the appropriate element.”

or maybe even

”Arcanist, eschew your connection to the elements and embrace pure arcane power, all weapons now use Arcane skills instead of elemental skills. Attunements become temporary states accessible only for a few seconds once every few minutes.”

Edited September 13 by Panda.1967