Its time to increase base hp

[zeyeti.8347]

On 5/16/2024 at 8:54 AM, Kyon.9735 said:

I don't know if I'm misremembering it but wasn't the original "reason" to the base health/armor differences back in 2012 was that:

Warriors have minimal access to defensive boons so they get high base health and armor. Guardians on the other hand had access to a lot of defensive boons and some healing, add the fact that they are heavy armor in lore (plus were not very mobile compared to warriors), so they get high base armor but low health pool. Now Ele on the other hand, had access to a lot of defensive boons and has a ton of built in healing (weapon skills, traits, water field + combo finishers etc) which is why even at lowest base HP and Armor they had acceptable levels of effective HP..

It's 2024 and these reasons don't apply anymore. Warriors now have access to a ton of defensive boons and healing. IMO, the class "weaknesses" that balanced the effective HP back in 2012 are a thing of the past at this point.

That was indeed the argument for ele , guardian and thief .

The other class back in game release had very poor option on defensive and sustain , ele has many skills to heal himslef and the group , guardian has passiv healing with virtues and thief with stealth could basically escape any sticky situation.

But nowaday every class can opt for a defensive chocie so this argument about sustain has no more value.

On 5/16/2024 at 10:50 AM, mirage.8046 said:

you can also get away with mixing marauder and dragon gear if you desire more sustain

That's not the point here , why should we mix to get lesser damage vs classes who can go full zerk full viper and still feel like a tank. just do you feel safe playing your weaver in open world with the full dps snowcrow build ? i do it with my zerk herald and reaper and it's cakewalk, not sure you will feel the same with a 14000 hp weaver in eggshell armor.

On 5/15/2024 at 3:19 PM, Dadnir.5038 said:

This site give you a glimpse of what hardcore raiders play as only those players feed such site with data. Said hardcore raiders could probably go through all the raid wings with any profession and any build but mostly chose the simplest option to get rid of the "chore".

Elementalist simply ask more investment from the player than the other options so it's left out.

Increasing the base health pool isn't going to reduce the attention requiered by the player when playing elementalist. You could give elementalist 19k base health pool in PvE and it would change nothing to it's popularity in wingman as the one that are dying with 12k hp would still die with 19k hp.

What the elementalist need to be popular on wingman is a potent build with a simple rotation. Nothing more, nothing less.

It's the opposite , the only players you will see "perform" well with an ele are hardcore players , and when i say perform i mean PERFORM , being number 1 dps with a huge 4k gap between he and the 2nd , if for you performing is doing average dps and being slightly above support dps we are not on the same ride... as awlays when i play the glass canon it's a no go for me to be below a class who has double my hp and double easy rotation.

But you are right about an easy build  with potency , but there again why would people choose a 14000 hp class doing the same than a class with 22000 hp ... and not talking about the crappy cc the ele has ... ele has no success in pve cause it is squeashy , complicated and erquire huge sacrifice to have the base tankiness or sustain the other class have.

Snowcrow removed the catalyst quickness from the build and put it in legacy ... that shows what even pros think about the ele... you can make any argument you want about ele advantages i can find any class doing  it better and with more ease. 

And weaver having base+120 vitality in earth only , if you play power you don't go in earth only for weave self so it's basically a placeholder . And catalyst is a failed spec so nobody cares about the +10% +20% stats you can get after 5 secondes of combat and that you will start loosing when your target is moving away. You can look in any way you want ele is a failed spec in pve if you have to compare it to the other monster we have as classes. It's not played for a reason and i really doubt average players can get the juice out of an ele.

[AliamRationem.5172]

54 minutes ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

That was indeed the argument for ele , guardian and thief .

The other class back in game release had very poor option on defensive and sustain , ele has many skills to heal himslef and the group , guardian has passiv healing with virtues and thief with stealth could basically escape any sticky situation.

But nowaday every class can opt for a defensive chocie so this argument about sustain has no more value.

That's not the point here , why should we mix to get lesser damage vs classes who can go full zerk full viper and still feel like a tank. just do you feel safe playing your weaver in open world with the full dps snowcrow build ? i do it with my zerk herald and reaper and it's cakewalk, not sure you will feel the same with a 14000 hp weaver in eggshell armor.

It's the opposite , the only players you will see "perform" well with an ele are hardcore players , and when i say perform i mean PERFORM , being number 1 dps with a huge 4k gap between he and the 2nd , if for you performing is doing average dps and being slightly above support dps we are not on the same ride... as awlays when i play the glass canon it's a no go for me to be below a class who has double my hp and double easy rotation.

But you are right about an easy build  with potency , but there again why would people choose a 14000 hp class doing the same than a class with 22000 hp ... and not talking about the crappy cc the ele has ... ele has no success in pve cause it is squeashy , complicated and erquire huge sacrifice to have the base tankiness or sustain the other class have.

Snowcrow removed the catalyst quickness from the build and put it in legacy ... that shows what even pros think about the ele... you can make any argument you want about ele advantages i can find any class doing  it better and with more ease. 

And weaver having base+120 vitality in earth only , if you play power you don't go in earth only for weave self so it's basically a placeholder . And catalyst is a failed spec so nobody cares about the +10% +20% stats you can get after 5 secondes of combat and that you will start loosing when your target is moving away. You can look in any way you want ele is a failed spec in pve if you have to compare it to the other monster we have as classes. It's not played for a reason and i really doubt average players can get the juice out of an ele.

I can't say that it really matters in group play.  You have support and in most cases whatever support can't save you from the extra health isn't going to help with.  I'd also argue that, at least for weaver, the issue isn't low health but lack of boons.  I don't have a problem surviving in open world and even soloing champions in full viper DPS builds (For example, Balthazar, Commander Razorwing, Chak Lobber).  The bigger issue for me is I want that to feel rewarding and it doesn't.  In fact, I can match all of these times using Trailblazer gear because without boons power damage is extremely weak and does practically nothing for me.  Maybe it made sense for weaver to have no boons in 2017, but it no longer makes sense when practically every spec but weaver is now loaded with boons. 

Give me quickness, fury, and more vulnerability.  Get rid of the 10-stack might cost on Pyromancer's Puissance.  Then I'll be putting out 30k+ DPS in champion solos like the best builds can.  Will I die if I don't play my cards right?  Yeah, but I'm okay with it.  I just want that glass cannon damage and there's no way to get it without boons.  So, again, not having boons on a spec in 2024 is not acceptable.  You made boons the baseline for everyone else.  It's time for an update to weaver!

As for the complexity/difficulty to reward ratio?  I don't know what the answer is there.  They seem hell bent on ensuring that complexity is not rewarded and I understand why.  The last thing they want is for players to feel left out if they can't play La Campanella double time with one arm tied behind their back.  On the other hand, I'm sure it doesn't feel great when you sweat it out on weaver or catalyst, then swap to some of these other classes that do the same damage by basically just auto-attacking and pushing skills off cooldown.  Which along with our weak support options for PvE probably explains the abysmal class representation on ele.

[ZephidelGRS.9520]

Love how every thread about Ele improvement is always met with “nu uh, in WvW/PvP Ele do this, Ele do that blah blah blah”. Nobody cares. In PvE gameplay it sucks major a-s for reasons repeated ad nauseam at this point, that I doubt Anet isn’t aware and isn’t purposefully doing nothing.

Have you noticed that it's always the same suggestions brought up every single year, by old and new players alike? If that many players notice the same thing, maybe something is clearly wrong and it's time for a long due QoL change.

[AliamRationem.5172]

8 minutes ago, ZephidelGRS.9520 said:

Love how every thread about Ele improvement is always met with “nu uh, in WvW/PvP Ele do this, Ele do that blah blah blah”. Nobody cares. In PvE gameplay it sucks major a-s for reasons repeated ad nauseam at this point, that I doubt Anet isn’t aware and isn’t purposefully doing nothing.

Have you noticed that it's always the same suggestions brought up every single year, by old and new players alike? If that many players notice the same thing, maybe something is clearly wrong and it's time for a long due QoL change.

They probably figure it wouldn't change much.  Even if you give boons, extra health, and more damage the fact that elementalist is harder to play well is going to keep a lot of players away from it.  But it's that uniqueness and complexity that makes ele players such fans of the class.  Just look at the reddit threads that pop up all the time asking what everyone's favorite class is.  Elementalist is always one of the classes that gets the most shout outs.  But frame the question differently and ask what class players would recommend to others and ele is about the only class that people take the time to actively warn other players against!

I'm not saying they should do nothing, but the main issue for me is that complexity isn't rewarded, can't be rewarded without causing an uproar, and the alternative of dumbing down the class would also cause an uproar.  What ya gonna do? 

[zeyeti.8347]

19 minutes ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

complexity isn't rewarded

We must shout this with a megaphone at 0.5 cm from anet ears ! and even then they gonna end up "but ele is meta defining duhhhh" yeah it define the meta in what it shouldn't be , how to balance the game ? look at ele and do the exact opposite !

[Sweetbread.3678]

15 hours ago, Codename T.2847 said:

Necro was designed with pretty respectable damage and strong DoT in mind, paired with inherently high health and damage-sponginess of shroud, hence they not getting kitten like blocks, blinks, blind, invuln etc. With Harbinger, they kept the big damage formula, but got rid of high health (it now decreases) and damage sponginess of shroud. It was literally designed to be a risky class to play, so it should die even harder to Necro's big weaknesses in return imo.

Yeah not really. Maybe when max Blight was still -50% health in the EoD beta that might've been true, but it sure as kitten isn't with Blight only doing -37.5% health. To reiterate the post immediately before yours...

19 hours ago, Sweetbread.3678 said:

Fun Ele health factoid: even with max stacks of Blight (-37.5% total health), a Necro with 0 vitality will still have 16% more health than an Ele with 0 vitality. Yup, even when a Necro pushes the single remotely skill based mechanic of their entire class to it's absolute maximum risk level and cuts an entire 8104+ from their max health, they'll still have an inherent 1863 more health than an Ele lol.

And that doesn't even mention Blight's ridiculous heal scaling; it's literally a 600%+ more powerful Healing Signet passive at max stacks. Couple that with Blood Bank and it actually becomes quite possibly the most ridiculously overtuned effective health and sustain upgrade in the entire game. The only reason it's considered "risky" is because the rest of Necro's class design has set the bar so low that it's in the Earth's molten core, and comparatively makes Harb's skill sub-sub-sub-sub-sub-sub-basement look like it requires a Manhattan Project level brain trust to operate.

[Liewec.2896]

i agree with this.

i play full zerker specs on every class and it is often the case that the classes with way more health have far more damage

perfect example comparing zerker staff ele to zerker warrior (pick whatever zerker warrior spec you like!)

glasscannon staff ele sitting on a sliver of health should be putting out a mountain of damage, risk = reward! but it simply doesn't.

and if Anet for some reason don't want to give glasscannon staff eles the damage that warrants being the squishiest character in the game

then there is no reason for my staff ele to be so ridiculously squishy.

risk should grant reward.