New offhand options POLL

[Forgotten Legend.9281]

I've wanted a dual wielding sword thief since beta. 

There's many possibilities for dual skill (filling the 3 slot, only)

Anakin slicing off Dooku's head

Block with one sword while striking with the other

Cloud Strife's Omnislash limit break (oh wait that's basically revanent sword 3) okay, I'm laughing too hard to continue the list...

Edited May 24 by Forgotten Legend.9281

[draxynnic.3719]

I can see potential for any offhand, although I might roll my eyes a bit at warhorn, and I can see an argument for greatsword as long as we get another offhand already first!

But I narrowed it down to two:

Focus to give the option to go full shadowmage with scepter, or to be able to use shadow magic as a supporting offhand combined with a more martial mainhand.

Or...

Sword, but...

It's not the melee offensive offhand some people think of (at least when it comes to the 4 and 5 skills). What I'm really imagining here is basically a main gauche dagger - massive hilt designed for parrying and, importantly, held blade up rather than the icepick grip that daggers are forced into. So the skills could include a block/riposte skill (fairly common for offhand swords, especially before the revenant offhand sword rework) and possibly a backwards roll as a disengage skill (it's important that it's usable as an offhand to a ranged weapon, especially since 3/5 mainhands are now ranged). Now, obviously people who just want dual swords can still do that, but I'm really hoping for a parrying dagger skin or two.

[bq pd.2148]

5 hours ago, Doggie.3184 said:

I'd pick off-hand Sword at this point but I want literally any off-hand that isn't stealth focused to synergize with main-hand Sword and the stealthless Speed/Evasion/Brawler builds we used to have. No more backward teleport spam type skills either like 'Measured Shot' and 'Shadow Strike' plz. 🙏🥺

what kind of skills would you want sword/sword 3-5 to be and why would you then pick it over s/d  or s/p ?  keep in mind that 4-5 will be available to the other main hands too

[Frozey.8513]

7 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Sword, but...

It's not the melee offensive offhand some people think of (at least when it comes to the 4 and 5 skills). What I'm really imagining here is basically a main gauche dagger - massive hilt designed for parrying and, importantly, held blade up rather than the icepick grip that daggers are forced into. So the skills could include a block/riposte skill (fairly common for offhand swords, especially before the revenant offhand sword rework) and possibly a backwards roll as a disengage skill (it's important that it's usable as an offhand to a ranged weapon, especially since 3/5 mainhands are now ranged). Now, obviously people who just want dual swords can still do that, but I'm really hoping for a parrying dagger skin or two.

Blocking and riposting is cool and all but doesn't really fit in the play style of a thief, so hopefully we'll just get the big hitter sword and then you can finally play GW1 Assassin in GW2.

[draxynnic.3719]

33 minutes ago, Frozey.8513 said:

Blocking and riposting is cool and all but doesn't really fit in the play style of a thief, so hopefully we'll just get the big hitter sword and then you can finally play GW1 Assassin in GW2.

It does, actually. Thief is a lighter armour fighter and the less armour you have, the more you need to rely on defending yourself by not being directly hit. Blocks and parries are a means of doing this. It's also generally what off-hand weapons were normally mostly used for historically - but weapons intended for that purpose were normally held blade-up, so in the GW2 context it'd have to be a sword skin.

Again, any offhand would have to work with all of the existing mainhand weapons. A high-damage melee attack on slot 4 or 5 wouldn't achieve that. A block does. A disengage also does - a melee build can use it to hit and run, a ranged build can use it to kite. Now, it doesn't need to be specifically what I proposed, but the point still stands - 3/5 thief mainhands are ranged, any new offhand needs to work with a ranged mainhand. Also worth noting here that GW1 assassin builds also tended to rely on some form of block enchantment (Critical Defenses being a common choice) in order to stay alive - you generally don't go full offense with your entire bar unless you want to embody the Factions launch assassin meme of popping like a balloon five seconds after shadowstepping in.

You can have a big melee damage skill on skill 3 when used with a MH sword or dagger. And with the initiative system, you don't really need more than that unless they try to make something gimmicky like axe again.

Edited May 24 by draxynnic.3719

[Kanaima.2546]

My vote is for focus largely because it gives the devs designing the skills for it the most creative freedom from a thematic standpoint as a general magical implement. For a sword off-hand to work along side weapons like pistol and scepter I feel like they'd either end up making skills that are so close to being magical in nature that it may as well be a focus, or we'll end up with weird weapon combos that simultaneously want you to be in close and mid-long range.

A focus could summon a shadow buckler for dagger/focus or shadow sword for sword/focus dual skills for example, while others could be more directly magical in nature. I think a sword off-hand would be a lot more difficult to feel both thematically appropriate for all weapon pairings while still feeling unique from other professions.

Then again the duplicating-telekinetic-explosion-generating axe proved that thematically appropriate doesn't necessarily factor in so... who knows what we might get?

Edited May 24 by Kanaima.2546

[Frozey.8513]

12 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

It does, actually. Thief is a lighter armour fighter and the less armour you have, the more you need to rely on defending yourself by not being directly hit. Blocks and parries are a means of doing this. It's also generally what off-hand weapons were normally mostly used for historically - but weapons intended for that purpose were normally held blade-up, so in the GW2 context it'd have to be a sword skin.

Lighter armoured fighters would much rather pick up a shield should defense be their primary concern. Thieves tend to also play with their mobility and stealth, so blocking and riposting doesn't really thematically add up there. From game play perspective a bigger hitter burst weapon would also be more desirable.

12 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Again, any offhand would have to work with all of the existing mainhand weapons. A high-damage melee attack on slot 4 or 5 wouldn't achieve that. A block does. A disengage also does - a melee build can use it to hit and run, a ranged build can use it to kite. Now, it doesn't need to be specifically what I proposed, but the point still stands - 3/5 thief mainhands are ranged, any new offhand needs to work with a ranged mainhand. Also worth noting here that GW1 assassin builds also tended to rely on some form of block enchantment (Critical Defenses being a common choice) in order to stay alive - you generally don't go full offense with your entire bar unless you want to embody the Factions launch assassin meme of popping like a balloon five seconds after shadowstepping in.

GW2 hasn't been fully ranged only combat friendly ever, so it wouldn't be an issue where weapon swapping, stacking up with allies, or even enemy coming right to one's face would all make melee ranged sword more than qualified. GW1 front line tank Assassin's did indeed use Critical Defenses for soaking up damage, yet they did not have access to mobility and stealth of GW2 thieves which in this game are their primary defensive tools. In PvP scenarios that skill would not even be used unless playing a very niche style of Assassin, whilst most Assassin's would optimise their kit for pure dps burst to quickly bring their prime target down.

[agnlaa.7594]

ive been thinking a lot about how theyre never going to give us a new offhand. as much as i hate the idea of them giving us a new 2h weapon, i think its gonna be worse. i think every other class will get a new weapon next expansion and thieves will just get told to unequip our offhand so we can use that 3 skill (twisting fangs, stab, etc)

[bq pd.2148]

2 hours ago, agnlaa.7594 said:

ive been thinking a lot about how theyre never going to give us a new offhand. as much as i hate the idea of them giving us a new 2h weapon, i think its gonna be worse. i think every other class will get a new weapon next expansion and thieves will just get told to unequip our offhand so we can use that 3 skill (twisting fangs, stab, etc)

unarmed skills for all classes so we could run without an offhand would indeed be interesting.

edit: just need a way to get the stats that would be tied to weapons/sigils.

Edited May 25 by bq pd.2148

[draxynnic.3719]

12 hours ago, Frozey.8513 said:

Lighter armoured fighters would much rather pick up a shield should defense be their primary concern. Thieves tend to also play with their mobility and stealth, so blocking and riposting doesn't really thematically add up there. From game play perspective a bigger hitter burst weapon would also be more desirable.

Again, the primary use of an offhand weapon has, historically, been defensive, in situations where carrying a large shield (and all the shield skins ARE large - skins that would work as bucklers and other small shields are typically found on focii) is impractical - and for a fantasy class as agility-themed as thief, that absolutely applies. GW2 has precedent in warrior and mesmer offhand swords each having a block.

Big burst damage can happen on the dual skill - and this allows it to work with either melee or range. The initiative system means that when you want to focus on damage it's often about spamming the best damage skill on your bar anyway - if that's the dual skill, you don't NEED a big burst damage skill on 4 or 5, you want some form of utility, stealth access, defence, a skill that works when your dual skill doesn't, or the like. Skills 4 and 5 need to work with any weapon.

12 hours ago, Frozey.8513 said:

GW2 hasn't been fully ranged only combat friendly ever, so it wouldn't be an issue where weapon swapping, stacking up with allies, or even enemy coming right to one's face would all make melee ranged sword more than qualified. GW1 front line tank Assassin's did indeed use Critical Defenses for soaking up damage, yet they did not have access to mobility and stealth of GW2 thieves which in this game are their primary defensive tools. In PvP scenarios that skill would not even be used unless playing a very niche style of Assassin, whilst most Assassin's would optimise their kit for pure dps burst to quickly bring their prime target down.

ArenaNet is not going to want to go to the effort of making dual skills for pistol, scepter, and axe only to have those skills be DOA because the offhand is only ever paired with the melee weapons. Thief is also probably the profession best suited to having a ranged set and a melee set, since outside of builds that swap to trigger the initiative-on-weaponswap trait, they don't benefit from swapping to access more damage skills like other professions do, so their swaps are more likely to be adjusting to circumstances rather than being on rotation.

I would note that there's already precedent for thieves having a block. It IS more oriented towards other forms of defence, but a block would still be a suitable defensive measure.

[Iustitian.9176]

Actually the thief offhand weapons have a specific function for dual skills: 

Dagger = Movement (except scepter 😑)

Pistol = Enemy control and multihit-damage

 

I would like to see one of these additionaly: 

Sword = Enemy control and strong double-hit combos

Focus = Defense and support

 

The normal weapon skills could be: 

Sword 4: Evade attack and cripple to multiple enemies ("Lower cut")

Sword 5: leap attack dealing much vulnerability and damage ("piercing thrust")

Focus 4: Shadow punch that deal torment and remove a boon

Focus 5: Block missiles and grant barrier ("shadow cape")

[draxynnic.3719]

11 hours ago, Iustitian.9176 said:

Actually the thief offhand weapons have a specific function for dual skills: 

Dagger = Movement (except scepter 😑)

Pistol = Enemy control and multihit-damage

 

Dagger offhand dual skills are still about damage. Sword/dagger? The dual is the main damage skill. Dagger/dagger? Same. Scepter/dagger? Again. Pistol/dagger? You teleport away, and then it flips to Repeater, which is, you guessed it, a significant part of your damage.

Pistol offhand dual skills are also mostly about damage, the exception being dagger/pistol, where it's used to close before using Heartseeker and/or Backstab.

Ultimately, any thief offhand needs to have 4 and 5 skills that are useful regardless of what the mainhand is. Can't have an offhand who's 4 and 5 skills are designed entirely for melee.