The lore of teleports

[Kalavier.1097]

1 hour ago, DarkK.7368 said:

Advancing the story, today in LW3, Amber Bay, I got a nice dialogue. Spoilers ahead.

There's a whole circus in the abandoned island. Some ship that crashed here a year ago. She asks you for a ship to return. You say there's an Asura gate nearby, but she says the big pet won't fit there so will wait for some ship...

So they've been there 1 year... and were not able to use some teleport. Even having an Asura waypoint a meter close. Nobody had some coin? The commander doesn't care? More questions arises.

I won't question why they don't go to the new Asuran gate and there ask for help, that's questioning someone's dumbness and not the lore itself.

I would point out that technically, the Asura waypoint was likely not there the entire year and only was setup when the Asura made a base camp there with the gate.

[TeeracK.3601]

The way I understood it was Asura gates are more of a thing for trading since you can carry though huge carts of goods, but waypoints only work on your person and things on your person so you cant really use it to upply a shop in any major scale.

[The Chosen One.5369]

It was mentioned in Ghosts of Ascalon that to use the asura gates you had to fill out a some paper work and even then the gates themselves were kinda finiky. That might have just been because they were going from Queensdale to Ebonhawke but I would imagine that that would be a deterrent.  Knowing how much the asura love paper work I bet its not just one form to go through a gate. 

And I do remember after beating Scarlets Giant Marionet in the story Tiami tells Logan he will have to pay the teleport/waypoint fees. I don't remember the exact wording but that lends support to the idea that the "normal" citizen can't afford the fees.

[Trejgon.9367]

11 hours ago, The Chosen One.5369 said:

That might have just been because they were going from Queensdale to Ebonhawke

They were going from Lions Arch, to Ebonhawke - bypassing the usual procedures, and reattuning gates specifically for this purpose - and in great secrecy, because if Ebonhawke have found out that Asura can and are willing to shift the gate in the heart of Ebonhawke to connect to anywhere that is not divinity's reach, they would be very unhappy about that.

But going to usual locations that gate was configured to connect to, there was usual customs around those gates, similar to airport security, or crossing a border (as some of those gates would cross borders actually).

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

5 hours ago, Trejgon.9367 said:

They were going from Lions Arch, to Ebonhawke - bypassing the usual procedures, and reattuning gates specifically for this purpose - and in great secrecy, because if Ebonhawke have found out that Asura can and are willing to shift the gate in the heart of Ebonhawke to connect to anywhere that is not divinity's reach, they would be very unhappy about that.

But going to usual locations that gate was configured to connect to, there was usual customs around those gates, similar to airport security, or crossing a border (as some of those gates would cross borders actually).

They filled out paperwork going from Divinity's Reach (specifically Rurikton) to Lion's Arch, for what @The Chosen One.5369 was referring to. They did later go from Lion's Arch to Ebonhawke undercover, but it was not because they didn't want it known that the asura can and will shift the gate - this is done frequently in the lore, them being static is purely mechanical zone travel restrictions. This is explicitly stated in Ghosts of Ascalon (Rurikton's asura gate, at the time the only asura gate in DR, would go to different destinations depending on the time of day), in Asura Gate Operator Wikka's dialogue which tells us that the DR gate in The Upper City goes to not just Lion's Arch, but also Rata Sum and the Grove, and lastly, the asura gate in Eye of the North during Icebrood Saga - The Commander uses it canonically to go to various points across Central Tyria to reach places being attacked by destroyers and Icebrood multiple times, but also in Mechanist Ninn's dialogue which is the lore explanation for the ability to unlock access to cities and other places. We even use this in Season 3, where we spend an entire memory minigame to relink the Rata Novus asura gate from going to Rata Sum to going to the one in the dragon lab to keep it secret, and then the story has us relink it (no memory minigame thank god) to the Ring of Fire isles.

Basically, it's very common knowledge among asura gate lore that they can be relinked to new locations.

By all indications, the asura gates during GW1 were fixed to a single location. In the 250 years since, no doubt because of the events in GW1, the asura have developed asura gates that can be relinked to new locations. Since Rata Novus' gate could be relinked, the tech came about fairly shortly after Eye of the North and Beyond.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

21 hours ago, DarkK.7368 said:

Advancing the story, today in LW3, Amber Bay, I got a nice dialogue. Spoilers ahead.

There's a whole circus in the abandoned island. Some ship that crashed here a year ago. She asks you for a ship to return. You say there's an Asura gate nearby, but she says the big pet won't fit there so will wait for some ship...

So they've been there 1 year... and were not able to use some teleport. Even having an Asura waypoint a meter close. Nobody had some coin? The commander doesn't care? More questions arises.

I won't question why they don't go to the new Asuran gate and there ask for help, that's questioning someone's dumbness and not the lore itself.

The existence and usage of waypoints between mechanics and lore has always been a bit weird. Like for example, the nobles at Noble Ledges in Verdant Brink - or the entire plot of Verdant Brink and recovering Pact soldiers and sending them back to Camp Resolve for recovery makes no sense the moment you take into account the waypoints' presence. Same with Bloodstone Fen, Ember Bay as mentioned, and many others. Similarly, the existence of waypoints in many maps like all of PoF and LWS4 (and even half of LWS3) doesn't make much sense without assuming that some allies had set them up beforehand.

Waypoints are a thing in lore, and like asura gates they don't function the same way in lore as they do in mechanics, but given the story in many maps, there's no way many waypoints we see in-game would exist and still make sense narratively. So generally speaking, I assume the waypoints don't exist unless pointed out in some dialogue or by event mechanics (like Dragonfall literally bringing them to set up camp).

[Kalavier.1097]

1 hour ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

The existence and usage of waypoints between mechanics and lore has always been a bit weird. Like for example, the nobles at Noble Ledges in Verdant Brink - or the entire plot of Verdant Brink and recovering Pact soldiers and sending them back to Camp Resolve for recovery makes no sense the moment you take into account the waypoints' presence. Same with Bloodstone Fen, Ember Bay as mentioned, and many others. Similarly, the existence of waypoints in many maps like all of PoF and LWS4 (and even half of LWS3) doesn't make much sense without assuming that some allies had set them up beforehand.

Waypoints are a thing in lore, and like asura gates they don't function the same way in lore as they do in mechanics, but given the story in many maps, there's no way many waypoints we see in-game would exist and still make sense narratively. So generally speaking, I assume the waypoints don't exist unless pointed out in some dialogue or by event mechanics (like Dragonfall literally bringing them to set up camp).

I think a good way to see it is, do we see npcs using it, and is it in a stable area (as we know, the Asura were keen to keep the waypoint system stable and functional). Meaning it's likely we have waypoints at Ascalon settlement, but we wouldn't have a waypoint in a Centaur camp or in HoT jungle.

[Trejgon.9367]

On 9/4/2024 at 4:12 PM, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

They filled out paperwork going from Divinity's Reach (specifically Rurikton) to Lion's Arch, for what @The Chosen One.5369 was referring to.

Well it is up to anyone's guess which exact part of the trip @The Chosen One.5369 have meant, since they stated "from Queensdale to Ebonhawke" which as you have mentioned included two gate travels. I interpreted second travel as intended on account of the mention of gate being "kinda finiky" which is description I could only attribute to second phase, with hoe reattuning process went.

On 9/4/2024 at 4:12 PM, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

This is explicitly stated in Ghosts of Ascalon (Rurikton's asura gate, at the time the only asura gate in DR, would go to different destinations depending on the time of day)

That one I did not remember. My bad.

On 9/4/2024 at 4:12 PM, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

the asura gate in Eye of the North during Icebrood Saga - The Commander uses it canonically to go to various points across Central Tyria to reach places being attacked by destroyers and Icebrood multiple times,

Which is considerably later in the storyline, which gives Asura time to refine attuning process. The reattuning of a gate was a lengthy process in the book, with a high risk attached of something going wrong with it. I suppose the bigger issue for Ebonhawke would not be knowledge of Asura being capable of doing so, but more being willing to do so without consulting city about it first. It was at the time very much city under siege, and having that gate lead to different places would pose considerable security risk.

On 9/4/2024 at 4:16 PM, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

The existence and usage of waypoints between mechanics and lore has always been a bit weird. Like for example, the nobles at Noble Ledges in Verdant Brink - or the entire plot of Verdant Brink and recovering Pact soldiers and sending them back to Camp Resolve for recovery makes no sense the moment you take into account the waypoints' presence.

In my understanding, based on a handful of cases of us seeing npc use a waypoint, and the additional dialogue from JW, it would seem that in lore the waypoints allow traversal from one waypoint to another, and not from anywhere to a waypoint like the game mechanic goes. Additionally I think for the sake of HoT story, that waypoints in the jungle are after-story development and/or just for gameplay purposes.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

22 hours ago, Trejgon.9367 said:

Which is considerably later in the storyline, which gives Asura time to refine attuning process. The reattuning of a gate was a lengthy process in the book, with a high risk attached of something going wrong with it. I suppose the bigger issue for Ebonhawke would not be knowledge of Asura being capable of doing so, but more being willing to do so without consulting city about it first. It was at the time very much city under siege, and having that gate lead to different places would pose considerable security risk.

Lengthy as in several minutes, hours tops. Not exactly something that would be impossible in the IBS narrative to exist, unmentioned.

I don't recall any "high risk attached of something going wrong with it" personally - all the risk came from the fact that they were bringing a charr into Ebonhawke under false pretenses from my memory. And yes, "willing to do so without consulting the city" would be a major issue as well, but that's an utterly different matter of "being capable of doing it" as you first mentioned. 😉 So I guess there we are now in agreement.

22 hours ago, Trejgon.9367 said:

In my understanding, based on a handful of cases of us seeing npc use a waypoint, and the additional dialogue from JW, it would seem that in lore the waypoints allow traversal from one waypoint to another, and not from anywhere to a waypoint like the game mechanic goes. Additionally I think for the sake of HoT story, that waypoints in the jungle are after-story development and/or just for gameplay purposes.

Correct, this is how waypoints function in lore - as well as being a bit unstable to the point of needing to be relocated "seemingly randomly" (read: because they run off ley-lines which asura didn't confirm the existence of yet because until Zhaitan's death they weren't so numerously and tangibly visible). But even simply needing to be at the waypoint physically to use it wouldn't stop at least half of the narrative "we are isolated" story beats from being instantly solved. In general, treating them to exist after the story works, but at the same time, after the story there's no reason for them to be placed there either! Which continues the conundrum but in a slightly different manner.

[Trejgon.9367]

20 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

I don't recall any "high risk attached of something going wrong with it" personally

There was a line from asuran performing the reattuning, when someone hurries him, and he starts spurting what could go wrong, if the tuning is not perfect. Smuggling the charr was an aspect of risk on it's own, and was a reason why they were rushing the engineer in the first place.

20 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

would be a major issue as well, but that's an utterly different matter of "being capable of doing it" as you first mentioned. 😉 So I guess there we are now in agreement.

It was capable and willing, specifically added "and willing" there, because there are example of people being capable of something but not willing to do it. But we are in agreement, I may have underestimated that asuran are not exactly hiding the capable part :) (I genuinely forgot the rurikton gate shifting the destination by the part of the day)

20 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

But even simply needing to be at the waypoint physically to use it wouldn't stop at least half of the narrative "we are isolated" story beats from being instantly solved.

Didn't one of big points of the nobles in the verdant brink whole event chain to actually establish working waypoint to get them out? A number of those narratives could be workable if you have no waypoint to set up at hand (proper leyline placement of it being additional factor in the story). To be fair, I would need to go through all of the instances of "we are isolated" subplots to properly judge how many of them are just conveniently omitting waypoints being a thing, and how many are cases of waypoints not being easily accessible.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

11 hours ago, Trejgon.9367 said:

There was a line from asuran performing the reattuning, when someone hurries him, and he starts spurting what could go wrong, if the tuning is not perfect. Smuggling the charr was an aspect of risk on it's own, and was a reason why they were rushing the engineer in the first place.

Well, yeah, "rushing it" would be problematic, but that doesn't mean it takes hours or would be risky under normal circumstances.

11 hours ago, Trejgon.9367 said:

Didn't one of big points of the nobles in the verdant brink whole event chain to actually establish working waypoint to get them out? A number of those narratives could be workable if you have no waypoint to set up at hand (proper leyline placement of it being additional factor in the story). To be fair, I would need to go through all of the instances of "we are isolated" subplots to properly judge how many of them are just conveniently omitting waypoints being a thing, and how many are cases of waypoints not being easily accessible.

No. The event chain ends in them lighting a fire to call in a chopper, but because there's so much luggage they could only take one servant and the nobles are left behind (said chopper then crashes in SCAR Lane, where said servant and pilot joins the Scar warband.

The waypoint there is never once referenced in the event line dialogue.

[Kalavier.1097]

There is dialogue by one of the Kodan settlements (the warclaw training area) between an Asura and the Kodan, where he's trying to explain the benefits of using them.

"You can travel to the fishing hut instantly!" 
"What about the far lodge/hunting town?"

"I believe we set up a waypoint at that location too."

Something like that. So in terms of "In universe" It'd be something they actively setup and install, which would probably only happen in verdant brink after the events of HoT really with the dangers of the jungle and all.

[Kulvar.1239]

On 5/24/2024 at 12:33 PM, Jobber.6348 said:

So if we take launch Gw2 gold value as the "lore value" of Gold, then the Commanders of today are stinking, filthy, horrendously, atrociously, rich. 

I wouldn't be saving the world to remain poor and exploited. At least the Commander did work for that money, unlike most of the nobles in Divinity's Reach.