Necro spear- a missed opportunity?

[draxynnic.3719]

8 hours ago, mirage.8046 said:

Bringing nerfs to existing weapons, ranged or melee, to make room for the new role only shifts the power onto that new weapon. DPS would drop a bit on the ranged weapons I guess.

True, but having a condi melee weapon to pick up the slack if the ranged weapons get nerfed would at least mean there's an alternative. I've seen some rumblings that full ranged condi necros are just a bit too good, even if the focus of that is primarily on cvirt - if cvirt gets nerfed, cnecro might be next on the block.

8 hours ago, mirage.8046 said:

As for my thoughts on existing weapons: Power necro wasn't hot until reaper came along. I was never around in the 2012-2015 era, but I'm sure players made it work what with wells, mh dagger, focus or warhorn, and shroud.

Yeah, basically exactly that mix.

As someone who was around back then, though, I don't think the situation then reflects the situation now. Reaper exists now. Necromancer currently has (not counting offhands) two power-oriented melee weapons, two power-oriented ranged weapons, two condi-oriented ranged weapons, one ranged hybrid, and exactly zero melee condi weapons. There's a gap in that lineup, and it's not a dire need for a third power melee weapon. Better to fix existing weapons than to simply try to replace them, while giving condi an option outside of the sceptre/pistol/staff holy trinity.

With spear as is, when it's released, there are going to be literally double the options for power (greatsword, sword, spear, axe, sword, hybrid staff) as there are for condi (sceptre, pistol, hybrid staff), outside of reaper chill shenanigans. That's getting pretty lopsided, especially on a profession where 2/3 elite specs are mostly built for condition damage (yes, there's a trait set for power harbinger, but 'power harbinger' is always going to be at least somewhat hybrid since harbinger shroud always has damaging conditions associated with it).

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

10 hours ago, mirage.8046 said:

As for my thoughts on existing weapons: Power necro wasn't hot until reaper came along. I was never around in the 2012-2015 era, but I'm sure players made it work what with wells, mh dagger, focus or warhorn, and shroud.

Turns out, that was the best DPS of any Necro build pre-HoT.  Necro was godawful before Reaper came.  Only thing it really had going for it were the brief periods Life Blast hit like a truck in comparison to all the other damage skills in the game, especially as Life Blast can't be avoided by strafing like most projectiles can.

[mirage.8046]

On 6/17/2024 at 11:19 PM, draxynnic.3719 said:

[trimmed]

As someone who was around back then, though, I don't think the situation then reflects the situation now. Reaper exists now. Necromancer currently has (not counting offhands) two power-oriented melee weapons, two power-oriented ranged weapons, two condi-oriented ranged weapons, one ranged hybrid, and exactly zero melee condi weapons. There's a gap in that lineup, and it's not a dire need for a third power melee weapon. Better to fix existing weapons than to simply try to replace them, while giving condi an option outside of the sceptre/pistol/staff holy trinity.

With spear as is, when it's released, there are going to be literally double the options for power (greatsword, sword, spear, axe, sword, hybrid staff) as there are for condi (sceptre, pistol, hybrid staff), outside of reaper chill shenanigans. That's getting pretty lopsided, especially on a profession where 2/3 elite specs are mostly built for condition damage (yes, there's a trait set for power harbinger, but 'power harbinger' is always going to be at least somewhat hybrid since harbinger shroud always has damaging conditions associated with it).

Oh I totally agree it's better to fix existing weapons than to introduce new ones that would replace them. I would nominate daggers to be slightly buffed on the condi side. Hybrid damage is cool and all but condi reaper makes the best use of main-hand dagger IMO. It's also core necro's only terrestrial weapon with that melee AA. Poor daggers need to be buffed, man.

I think spear may be an alternative for a faster power melee style than what greatsword can do. Greatsword however hits like a truck so spear has to compete similarly or else it won't be used. In addition, we don't know what cast times will be like or what the flow will be like until the beta, so no judgment on the spear from me rn.

Yeah, power harbinger unironically inflicts almost every condition in the game except slow and taunt (unless you corrupt quickness on enemies). Not many power builds can inflict many conditions on that level. 

[Funky.4861]

On 6/12/2024 at 9:42 PM, Magmi.6723 said:

Melee does the highest damage, while the most meta DPSers are ranged? Lol

Yes, because those ranged options have to huddle in melee range not only for buffs, but for their projectiles to have the shortest travel-time to the target.

[Funky.4861]

On 6/14/2024 at 3:57 PM, Magmi.6723 said:

Spears competitive to great sword won’t be relevant though, as we have weapon swap, even if great sword remains stronger, spear will used with it providing its better then the other existing options.

greatsword tends to mesh well with shroud due to being able to drop down the finishers from its abilities which we can whirl in for higher damage. While spear offers a free reset coming out of shroud. It’s possible we will end up using GS + spear. I can’t see these competing against one another really 

You're limiting yourself to reaper- think about the other specs too. If spear has no traits to buff it like dagger and axe do, it will need to have higher damage as baseline. If we go outside of reaper and into say, power harb, i don't know if traitless spear will have a place (the shroud cd reset is meaningless when you can always enter shroud on harb).

[Funky.4861]

On 6/17/2024 at 5:04 AM, Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

To be fair, the only holes we have are "defensive" and "support" weapons and ANet doesn't seem to want us to have either for some reason (though mainhand dagger does work well as a sustain weapon).

Granted, core and Reaper have shroud as a "defensive" weapon set.

Still, there's only so much we can get that isn't overlapping in role with something else.  We don't need more damage on our condition builds.

We don't need more damage on our condi builds- we DO need more OPTIONS.

[Purple Effects.2503]

5 hours ago, Funky.4861 said:

You're limiting yourself to reaper- think about the other specs too. If spear has no traits to buff it like dagger and axe do, it will need to have higher damage as baseline. If we go outside of reaper and into say, power harb, i don't know if traitless spear will have a place (the shroud cd reset is meaningless when you can always enter shroud on harb).

Harbingers too Squishy to throw down a Pure DPS Focused weapon that lacks sustain in all honesty.

If ur expecting this spear to become the choice for every power build on necro, its Unlikely the likelyhood is it'll have a build or 2, Like most weapons in the game, If you aim for EVERY power build to use one, your gutting like 99% of the classes weapon pool lol. It shouldnt be a case of litterally every power build wanting to use Spear, 

Spear tbh, May not be great anyway, its Shroud regen seems abysmal, Which is a MAJOR issue considering how much of necromancers powers inbedded in its shroud skills which is a sore point for all speccs, weather that gets rectified is yet to be seen, it seems like alot of the spears fall short, this could change after testing, that no way means their buried before launch, but theres no denying they're going to need work,

Ironically i think Mesmer Really won with spear, It'll be Questionable how reliable you can get clarity to proc in PVP enviroments, but i feel like thats the only real concern when it comes to the weapon. if its reasonable however and has a play around, Mesmer spear could become a really good option espically if theyre intending to revive power Mirage via it. 

[Asum.4960]

On 6/17/2024 at 11:33 PM, mirage.8046 said:

As for my thoughts on existing weapons: Power necro wasn't hot until reaper came along. I was never around in the 2012-2015 era, but I'm sure players made it work what with wells, mh dagger, focus or warhorn, and shroud.

(Power) Necro really wasn't a thing until even longer, when they reworked a lot of things in 2017. Before then, Well of Darkness for example was literally just a pulsing Blind, no Chill and zero damage. 

This is the patch which finally started to push Reaper, and with that Power Necro as a whole, into viability. 

Condi Necro/Scourge more or less accidentally took off after This patch in 2021 changed Torment. 

2012-2017/21, Necromancer was in a pretty dire state (really just used for Epi on some encounters) and there really wasn't much to "make it work" with in PvE, leaving the class to be mostly insta kicked. 

I still recall how even just joining groups on my Necro and instantly logging to swap characters would have me already kicked by the time I got through the loading screen. "No Necros" was even a semi-common tag-ling in LFG's for group content. Fun times. 

 

Anyway, that trivia aside, yes, Necro Weapons needed a major overhaul literally since the game's beta events in 2012. Compared to other games, it's insane how lazy Anet has gotten away with being in terms of updating and balancing lacking player tools especially.

It's hard to imagine these days that a class was just left in such a horrible state for 5+ years, in the most popular game mode no less. And while new Weapon additions such as with Elite Specs (primarily GS for Power and Pistol/Torch for Condi) have acted as band-aid's since, Necromancer is a field of not just ripe, but by now rotten low hanging fruit for changes.