Necro spear feedback (post twitch reveal)

[StraightPath.3972]

I like it, I like it a lot, despite it being very unsafe for the user.
One thing that i think needs change however is the Extirpation condition duration (the anti-boon unique condition).

Assuming it is a new type of condi and scales with condition duration, at least 6-8s base duration in PvE is needed.
Bosses usually recast their boons every 10s or so. If i use the spear 5 skill quickly to remove them, the stacks become useless
because they'll drop off naturally before the enemy even gets around to trying to buff itself again...

[XECOR.2814]

It is not a condi, its a unremovable debuff like vampiric signet stacks.
Nothing matters in pve. They can give you a stick that does 30k damage and you can use that with alacrity and quickness.
It will still be relevant.

From pvp/wvw perspective:
The life siphon is a lame mechanic that is slapped onto every new weapon, it does not provide enough sustain.
There are no builders for the set to do "execute", no might or vuln to enable the gameplay. 1 stack of might lol.
All your life force generation is loaded into 1skill that is the number3 addle which is 130 range single target attack with no multi hits so if it misses or gets blinded or blocked you would have 0 life force in this kit. The other skill that has life force is auto chain #3 in 130 range which you will never reach in pvp/wvw scenarios.
Did i mention this is 130range again?
There is no fear in this set so all your fear related traits are useless, most importantly dread is unusable which is supposed to enable many power builds.
Auto attacks are 3/4s cast.
#4 Isolate doesnt pierce, even though its unblockable so it wont reach your target. Someone else will eat it up at the front so you cant actually isolate a target lmao.
There is tons more that i can point out.
This spear set is quarter baked atm not even half baked.

Edited June 22 by XECOR.2814

[Arianth Moonlight.6453]

they tried... Kinda... I guess... 😐

[Purple Effects.2503]

3 hours ago, XECOR.2814 said:

The life siphon is a lame mechanic that is slapped onto every new weapon, it does not provide enough sustain

? 

spear doesn’t consume health to use like the swords do, lol it only self heals. Which is fine lol, 

3 hours ago, XECOR.2814 said:

Nothing matters in pve. They can give you a stick that does 30k damage and you can use that with alacrity and quickness

The game mode with the vast majority of players don’t matter, pretty sure Anet wouldn’t agree here.

3 hours ago, XECOR.2814 said:

There are no builders for the set to do "execute", no might or vuln to enable the gameplay. 1 stack of might lol

But it does have a stacking function which does increase their damage enabling burst, and we know Anet intend to as rhey referred it to as a assassin type weapon with burst

3 hours ago, XECOR.2814 said:

All your life force generation is loaded into 1skill that is the number3 addle which is 130 range single target attack with no multi hits so if it misses or gets blinded or blocked you would have 0 life force in this kit. The other skill that has life force is auto chain #3 in 130 range which you will never reach in pvp/wvw scenarios

Being melee doesn’t just make it bad lol.

3 hours ago, XECOR.2814 said:

here is no fear in this set so all your fear related traits are useless, most importantly dread is unusable which is supposed to enable many power builds.
Auto attacks are 3/4s cast

There are plenty of weapons that are used that don’t include a fear lol, pistol / torch is a good example of that. 

3 hours ago, XECOR.2814 said:

4 Isolate doesnt pierce, even though its unblockable so it wont reach your target. Someone else will eat it up at the front so you cant actually isolate a target lmao

That could be a issue in wvwvw sure, but I feel like also in this game mode roaming is considered a type of gameplay and this is a lot less of a problem there 

theres valid argument to it shoulda been a ranged power option, given necro lacks this right now, however I don’t think its gonna be bad by default 

Edited June 22 by Magmi.6723

[XECOR.2814]

14 hours ago, Magmi.6723 said:

? 

spear doesn’t consume health to use like the swords do, lol it only self heals. Which is fine lol, 

The game mode with the vast majority of players don’t matter, pretty sure Anet wouldn’t agree here.

But it does have a stacking function which does increase their damage enabling burst, and we know Anet intend to as rhey referred it to as a assassin type weapon with burst

Being melee doesn’t just make it bad lol.

There are plenty of weapons that are used that don’t include a fear lol, pistol / torch is a good example of that. 

That could be a issue in wvwvw sure, but I feel like also in this game mode roaming is considered a type of gameplay and this is a lot less of a problem there 

theres valid argument to it shoulda been a ranged power option, given necro lacks this right now, however I don’t think its gonna be bad by default 

1. Sword give back more health than they consume. The consume is nerfed on swords because it was a dysfunctional mechanic anyway. 
Essentially just making it a normal life siphon. Not to mention the life siphon on sword#3 is quite notable and the only source in the whole necromancer arsenal that gives enough of it to call it sustain. My problem is not with the mechanic itself but with the devs not giving it high enough number to make actually sustain. Other than sword#3 everything else that has life siphon is trash. either in usuability or in number. it just eats up power budget and gives nothing back.
2.  Yeah it doesnt matter. They can give you any theme and you would still have to stand in one place with all boons and dps. So the intricacies can changed according to pvp/wvw perspective. 
3.  Come back to me when u see in reality that the stacking buff does 10% more damage max rather than what might and vuln give. Not to mention your other traits that wont interact because u do 0 debuff on enemies and 0 buff on yourself. Not to mention might, fury, vuln makes all yours skills do more damage not just 1. Also when Anet give these mechanic they automatically correct the numbers to a lower amount because they assume people will get 25 might from somewhere else then it could break the game together with the stacking. Making your attacks weak noodle in general when u dont have allies to buff u. Instead a strong original number with buffing, debuffing capabilities is much rather preferred. Its not like the stacking buff will make skill do 100% more damage from its original strong base value. It will be corrected and hence will be bad.
4. Being melee 130 range makes it bad. Im not sure what kind of game you play. You think any enemy without stab or aegis will be in 130range of you in any gamemode?
5. Those weapons are 1 handed. they leave option to take fear on offhand. Torch has inbuit cc, Greatsword came with reaper at that time dread didnt even exist.
Releasing a two handed melee range weapon with no strong cc and no fear is asking the weapon to be thrown into trash bin

If the spear doesnt have more effects in general slapped on to it. It will be doa.
Unless anet does some weird shenanigans of making it 1 shot kinda stupid damage thats bad for the game or something and justify their lame design.

[Purple Effects.2503]

1 hour ago, XECOR.2814 said:

4. Being melee 130 range makes it bad. Im not sure what kind of game you play. You think any enemy without stab or aegis will be in 130range of you in any gamemode

I don’t understand ur argument here.

are you saying a melee weapon is unusable in SPvP?… I see multiple melee weapons being used in spvp by several classes. 

[Purple Effects.2503]

1 hour ago, XECOR.2814 said:

the spear doesnt have more effects in general slapped on to it. It will be doa.
Unless anet does some weird shenanigans of making it 1 shot kinda stupid damage thats bad for the game or something and justify their lame design

Damage will be likely be high I doubt that high however, 

theyve referred to it as a Asssassin style, so I imagine its idea is its ability to pop on top of someone and put out a metric ton of damage instantly. And Swap out the weapon once slamming into CDs. 

would have been nice, if we got swiftness in the kit however, if it’s ment to be a assassin style weapon I think it would have been a good move as we currently lack anything. 

however I don’t think it’s outright bad for being melee, many melee weapons exist which seem to handle it fine. 

it will suck In beta however, every assassin type brought last time also did that’s because co-efficiency and damage are last to balance. So it’s likely

the weapon will hit like a wet noodle for most of the betas, and it will prolly suck, normally will be the case 😂

Edited June 23 by Magmi.6723

[draxynnic.3719]

4 hours ago, XECOR.2814 said:

2.  Yeah it doesnt matter. They can give you any theme and you would still have to stand in one place with all boons and dps. So the intricacies can changed according to pvp/wvw perspective. 

Raids, strikes, and fractals don't represent all of PvE.

[XECOR.2814]

14 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Raids, strikes, and fractals don't represent all of PvE.

thats cool. how is my statement wrong in open world?

[XECOR.2814]

17 hours ago, Magmi.6723 said:

I don’t understand ur argument here.

are you saying a melee weapon is unusable in SPvP?… I see multiple melee weapons being used in spvp by several classes. 

ah there might be difference between other classes and necromancers kit if you havent noticed.

[draxynnic.3719]

Just now, XECOR.2814 said:

thats cool. how is my statement wrong in open world?

Because outside of tank and spank open world bosses with a high level of organisation and relatively few mechanics, open world generally doesn't involve being able to stand in one place with all boons whaling away. When you're on your own, you don't have that heal and boon support that your statement assumes, just what you've brought to the table yourself.

[Purple Effects.2503]

3 minutes ago, XECOR.2814 said:

ah there might be difference between other classes and necromancers kit if you havent noticed.

Yes they do. 

but we also sit in melee, our shrouds entirely melee… lol

[XECOR.2814]

7 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Because outside of tank and spank open world bosses with a high level of organisation and relatively few mechanics, open world generally doesn't involve being able to stand in one place with all boons whaling away. When you're on your own, you don't have that heal and boon support that your statement assumes, just what you've brought to the table yourself.

are u saying that any meta where everyone stacks boons even without knowing what you are doing or very very rare organized groups which purposely cover all boons.
Or the case where u are just solo f about in open world where everything dies just by pressing 2 skills?
In any case my point was that just damage under % effect is not as good as people think it is cause its always corrected before release or patched.
Because it would be broken in other scenarios where u have all boons. So without boons it makes u wet noodle.
So a buff, debuff as a effec on skills is objectively better than damage %

Edited June 24 by XECOR.2814

[draxynnic.3719]

1 minute ago, XECOR.2814 said:

are u saying that any meta where everyone stacks boons even without knowing what you are doing or very very rare organized groups which purposely cover all boons.
Or the case where u are just solo f about in open world where everything dies just by pressing 2 skills?
In any case my point was that just damage under % effect is not as good as people think it is cause its always corrected before release or patched.
Because it would be broken in other scenarios where u have all boons. So without boons it makes u wet noodle.

Clearly you haven't tried solo or unorganised bounties, solo hero points in HoT, exploring certain minidungeonesque regions or events in open world that throw multiple veteran+ opponents at you, and a variety of other situations where solo open world really can stretch you if you go off the beaten path.

[XECOR.2814]

4 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Clearly you haven't tried solo or unorganised bounties, solo hero points in HoT, exploring certain minidungeonesque regions or events in open world that throw multiple veteran+ opponents at you, and a variety of other situations where solo open world really can stretch you if you go off the beaten path.

sure, tell me how a damage % will help you more than buff debuff, or are you just arguing after reading first line just for the sake of it.
The funny part is, the spear would be even worse in those scenarios lmao.

Edited June 24 by XECOR.2814

[draxynnic.3719]

1 minute ago, XECOR.2814 said:

sure, tell me how a damage % will help you more than buff debuff, or are you just arguing after reading first line just for the sake of it.

Your argument through the entire thread has included some variant of "doesn't matter, you already have all the buffs in PvE". But that isn't necessarily so. If you're not in an organised group, you have what you brought yourself, apart from jade bot buffs that no longer last longer than their recharge, and many people aren't going to be OCD enough to make sure they're on permanently anyway, especially since the duration tends to be wiped whenever you enter any instance, including story instances.

[Sigmoid.7082]

32 minutes ago, XECOR.2814 said:

In any case my point was that just damage under % effect is not as good as people think it is cause its always corrected before release or patched.
Because it would be broken in other scenarios where u have all boons. So without boons it makes u wet noodle.
So a buff, debuff as a effec on skills is objectively better than damage %

So what stops Anet from correcting the buff / debuff as an effect before release or patching it? 

[XECOR.2814]

6 hours ago, Sigmoid.7082 said:

So what stops Anet from correcting the buff / debuff as an effect before release or patching it? 

people who dont give feedback about whats needed and try to argue against people who do.

[Purple Effects.2503]

On 6/24/2024 at 2:24 PM, XECOR.2814 said:

people who dont give feedback about whats needed and try to argue against people who do

Tbh Anet likely don’t take the forum into that much account to what and doesn’t need buffing. 

everyone wants their class to be overpowered. That’s common knowledge, if you were to take that input and apply it the game would be wild 

and the argument pve don’t matter isn’t really true, necromancwr wasn’t ignored in pve for 5 years because people didn’t care what you were playing. 

[Flumek.9043]

On 6/24/2024 at 8:11 AM, Magmi.6723 said:

Yes they do. 

but we also sit in melee, our shrouds entirely melee… lol

Lets make optimal dream scenario:

1) greatsword + dagger + reaper

2) fair 1v1

3) fight on node.

You still lose vs. any real sidenode build.  Thats how bad our melee weapons are.  The class is designed to facetank trade blows yet other have bigger pressure.  Theres reason why all necros do in PVP is kiting + while pocketed by support

[Purple Effects.2503]

57 minutes ago, Flumek.9043 said:

You still lose vs. any real sidenode build.  Thats how bad our melee weapons are.  The class is designed to facetank trade blows yet other have bigger pressure.  Theres reason why all necros do in PVP is kiting + while pocketed by support

Well of course yes lol. Necro plays a team fight role, but it not changing your role doesn’t rly make it bad. No weapon unless busted AF is gonna take necro and put it on par with a side node build.

a stand alone weapon is never gonna achieve that 

without a rework or elite spec this isn’t rly possible to achieve so if this is the criteria your setting for spear you’ve set urself up to be disappointed. 

they’re not gonna put active defense in the classes weapon kit prior Reaper shroud being reworked. So until you see that, you can bank a weapon will never change it 

and before someone brings up scourge or harbinger don’t have second life bars, it’s irrelevant for aslong as they share a weapon pool with reaper.

its not because our melee weapons are bad, its because when it comes to PvP active defense will always be stronger then passive. But passive defence is easier to use. That’s kinda the trade off made here.

our kit is simplified by making it low intensity by default, but the class is also limited due to that simple design.

others do have higher pressure, but they also have less Hp, don’t have 33% dmg reduction and don’t carry the quantity of CC a lot of weapons we have do,

you can’t have 1 class with 60k hp dealing equal damage to another class with 17k hp. If necro brought more hp to the table with equal DPs it’d make the other options redundant  

so with support we are one of the strongest among, and without we die fast, it’s a balancing act a trade off you take. 

Edited June 26 by Magmi.6723

[Asum.4960]

9 hours ago, Magmi.6723 said:

they’re not gonna put active defense in the classes weapon kit prior Reaper shroud being reworked. So until you see that, you can bank a weapon will never change it 

and before someone brings up scourge or harbinger don’t have second life bars, it’s irrelevant for aslong as they share a weapon pool with reaper.

its not because our melee weapons are bad, its because when it comes to PvP active defense will always be stronger then passive. But passive defence is easier to use. That’s kinda the trade off made here.

our kit is simplified by making it low intensity by default, but the class is also limited due to that simple design.

others do have higher pressure, but they also have less Hp, don’t have 33% dmg reduction and don’t carry the quantity of CC a lot of weapons we have do,

you can’t have 1 class with 60k hp dealing equal damage to another class with 17k hp. If necro brought more hp to the table with equal DPs it’d make the other options redundant  

so with support we are one of the strongest among, and without we die fast, it’s a balancing act a trade off you take. 

The irony here being that Power Reaper is by far the squishiest Elite Spec Necromancer has - at least from a PvE solo challenge player's perspective (I'm not particularly up to date on PvP, but it seems even Reaper went Condi there now). 

Doing solo T4 Fractal runs and co., it's wild how far behind Reaper and Power Necro as a whole is. It's melee and can't kite while delivering it's damage, it's sustain is awful and it gets absolutely pummeled in content a equally well put together Scourge or even Harb build don't even drop below 99% HP if you try. 

 

But that's probably the biggest flaw of a mechanic like Shroud. That it looks good on paper to some at a glance, which always seemed to include Anet themselves. That an Evade or two, or a duration Block, Invuln., or such on a kit can match the effective HP of the whole Shroud mechanic if used well (in a teamfight or co.) seems to go past them completely. Likewise , how much EHP good sustain adds. What a big difference boons like Prot make, and especially Stability and Aegis, allowing a player to avoid being put or locked into high pressure spots, and to a lesser, reactive, degree cleanses and stunbreaks as well ofc. 

Or mainly how crippling it is to have all your pressure tied to all your defense, so you can never strategically deploy one or the other, chain them, keep one in your back pocket, engage with your offense, disengage with your defense etc. 

You are right ofc., as long as Shroud exists Necromancer isn't getting active defense. Which is why Shroud is the worst thing to ever have happened to this Profession, because it's looks strong while being weak and completely crippling the design space for actually solid mechanics. 

You'd think 12 years of an uninterrupted Focus Necro First because they can't defend themselves meta would have been a dead giveaway for some changes being  needed, but hey.

Edited June 27 by Asum.4960

[Purple Effects.2503]

4 hours ago, Asum.4960 said:

You'd think 12 years of an uninterrupted Focus Necro First because they can't defend themselves meta would have been a dead giveaway for some changes being  needed, but hey.

It’s where necros huge popularity is its downfall, even WoW, only registers balance requirements when play rate drops, and they’ve admitted this.

Necro is seen as a huge popularity, so it runs the highest risk of loss when it comes to changing. so nothing will change. Companies determine good design on Popularity in large sectors really, so for as long as it’s an over populated environment Anet will forever think it’s fine. 

Of course game types can be played in here, but necro is hugely popular in all game modes ironically lol

[Asum.4960]

3 hours ago, Magmi.6723 said:

It’s where necros huge popularity is its downfall, even WoW, only registers balance requirements when play rate drops, and they’ve admitted this.

Necro is seen as a huge popularity, so it runs the highest risk of loss when it comes to changing. so nothing will change. Companies determine good design on Popularity in large sectors really, so for as long as it’s an over populated environment Anet will forever think it’s fine. 

Of course game types can be played in here, but necro is hugely popular in all game modes ironically lol

It's popularity isn't the downfall, incompetent devs balancing/designing according to that are - but in essence you are correct of course. 

Anet especially is really bad about those things (like: almost all the content we release, update and promote is LW -> the most played content is LW -> we should completely double down and do nothing but LW as it's the most popular -> game almost dies with IBS as revenue freefalls because that's not how you read statistics and most players were still around despite such a huge focus on LW, not because of it -> Anet panics and course corrects towards expansions and adding group content and the like again). 

People play Necromancer for it's theme, that will always be especially true for Light and Dark themes (see Guard and Necro being the most played professions). That's not because of it's design, but in this game's case, at least for many, actively despite of it. 

Especially things like Minions people play despite full well knowing how utterly garbage they are in GW2, simply because they are craving the theme enough to sacrifice 80%+ efficiency for it. Any dev who thinks that just because something has a decent playrate it's balanced or designed well, and largely relies on that as indicator, isn't good at their job.

Edited June 27 by Asum.4960

[draxynnic.3719]

On 6/28/2024 at 12:28 AM, Asum.4960 said:

It's popularity isn't the downfall, incompetent devs balancing/designing according to that are - but in essence you are correct of course. 

Anet especially is really bad about those things (like: almost all the content we release, update and promote is LW -> the most played content is LW -> we should completely double down and do nothing but LW as it's the most popular -> game almost dies with IBS as revenue freefalls because that's not how you read statistics and most players were still around despite such a huge focus on LW, not because of it -> Anet panics and course corrects towards expansions and adding group content and the like again). 

People play Necromancer for it's theme, that will always be especially true for Light and Dark themes (see Guard and Necro being the most played professions). That's not because of it's design, but in this game's case, at least for many, actively despite of it. 

Especially things like Minions people play despite full well knowing how utterly garbage they are in GW2, simply because they are craving the theme enough to sacrifice 80%+ efficiency for it. Any dev who thinks that just because something has a decent playrate it's balanced or designed well, and largely relies on that as indicator, isn't good at their job.

"People play X for its theme" only goes so far. Elementalist is also a popular theme, such that you very rarely have a fantasy game without something that can be built as an elementalist. Yet it has one of the lowest playrates in instanced PvE content, competing with thief and warrior, which aren't exactly niche themes. While necromancer is one of the highest. There's clearly a threshold where people do start abandoning something in content where performance matters however popular the theme is, and in instanced PvE at least, necromancer is performing well. If it was actually underperforming... well, in the HoT days, it was necromancer that was almost never seen while elementalist and warrior were meta. In that environment at least, the theme being popular simply doesn't seem to be enough to keep people playing when it's underperforming.

I can't comment in other modes, but in PvE at least, necromancer wouldn't be among the top professions played in instanced content if it wasn't bringing a lot to the table. This can be demonstrated by how low the play rate was when it genuinely didn't bring much to the table.