Will Mirage be better than Chrono in any situation?

[TheFrighteningFrenchFry.32]

@Esplen.3940 said:

@TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275 said:Self-Deception. Quit literally, and the trait :P

There's no Deception skill with lower than a 20s cooldown. The average Deception cooldown is 30s, with a minimum of 20, and a maximum of 45. Condi Mesmer in Raids can't typically afford a utility slot to be given up, and even if you do give it up, you're sacrificing a lot of damage output (Sig of Dom/Midnight) or group utility (Sig of Humility/Feedback) or ramp time (Sig of Ether).

Jaunt, and alacrity from other party members. Sorry, but I just couldn't let you get away with a snidy comment : P

@Knox.8962 said:

@Esplen.3940 said:

@Knox.8962 said:You guys who think scepter + pistol phantasms is better than axe + pistol phantasms must have tested a drastically different game than I tested during the preview weekend. Axe/pistol condi mirage should be in the ballpark of 32k DPS with current numbers. If they buff anything, it should go higher than that.

The only way you're going to reach numbers that high is by using Axe2 which also lowers your sustained dps. In a fight of over 10s, Axe is going to perform roughly equally to Scepter, but with the added disadvantage of having to constantly summon Phantasms.

We'll just have to agree to disagree.

I guess we'll just have to take your word that Condi Mirage is going to hit 32k dps. Yup yup. Seems legit.

[Esplen.3940]

@TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275 said:

@Esplen.3940 said:

@TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275 said:Self-Deception. Quit literally, and the trait :P

There's no Deception skill with lower than a 20s cooldown. The average Deception cooldown is 30s, with a minimum of 20, and a maximum of 45. Condi Mesmer in Raids can't typically afford a utility slot to be given up, and even if you do give it up, you're sacrificing a lot of damage output (Sig of Dom/Midnight) or group utility (Sig of Humility/Feedback) or ramp time (Sig of Ether).

Jaunt, and alacrity from other party members. Sorry, but I just couldn't let you get away with a snidy comment : P

45s Reduced to 33s with 100% Alacrity uptime. Definitely lower than 20s.

[Knox.8962]

@Esplen.3940 said:

We'll just have to agree to disagree.

I guess we'll just have to take your word that Condi Mirage is going to hit 32k dps. Yup yup. Seems legit.

I'll bite.

Assuming that torment and bleeding are functionally equivalent in PvE:

A scepter AA chain does a total of 1.75 coefficient and 15s (15s torment) of base condi duration over a tooltip cast time of 1.75s

A traited axe AA chain does a total of 2.3 coefficient and 18s (10s torment 8s bleeding) of base condi duration over a tooltip cast time of 1.5s

That means 1 axe AA chain hits for 31.4% more power damage and 20% more condi damage than a scepter AA chain. Furthermore, the axe AA chain tooltip cast times are faster. (I'm aware that the tooltip cast times are not reliable measures of actual execution time, but I don't have actual activation times for axe, so I'm working with what we do have)

Adjusting for the cast time difference, the axe AA chain does 53.3% more power damage per cast time and 40% more condi damage per cast time compared to scepter AA.

Scepter has the advantage of confusing images, but that isn't even 40% better than the scepter AA by itself, and is nowhere near strong enough to bring the scepter's kit into striking distance of the axe AA.

Over the course of several hours of DPS testing during the preview weekend, I was very consistently getting Axe/Pistol mirage (3 duelists) numbers 25-30% higher than the Sc/P core condi mes setup. Furthermore, my axe DPS setup with 0 phantasms (still using dust cloak) was out damaging the core condi mes using duelists by roughly 20%.

Axe clones are also massively more powerful than scepter clones, so any time you need to ramp up your phantasms, the axe clones you have available while waiting are going to drastically improve your ramp up damage.

I know hating the Mirage is the cool thing to do here, but let's stop pretending that for straight up PvE DPS that traited axe isn't going to absolutely crush scepter DPS.

As far as traits are concerned:You're welcome to make the argument that 20% condi duration, 12s AoE bleeds on dodge and some fraction of 150 condi damage you get from Mirage traits is worse than the 100 condi damage and 18%-ish condi duration from Chaos traits. I would disagree with that assessment, but I don't think it would be unreasonable to assume that those trait options are very close at least.

TL;DR - traits are pretty close, but axe damage absolutely crushes scepter damage. Expect a ballpark of 25% DPS boost over core condi mes.

[Kundry.1249]

@Knox.8962 said:PvE Condi DPS mirage should be a sizeable upgrade over condi DPS mesmer. Both of those are better than chrono DPS.

DPS Chrono does 29k dps, which seems higher than condi mesmer.

[Esplen.3940]

Okay, so...

Axe clones are also massively more powerful than scepter clones, so any time you need to ramp up your phantasms, the axe clones you have available while waiting are going to drastically improve your ramp up damage.

You only ramp once, and you get out 3 Phantasms instantly (Mage -> Duelist -> Ether -> Duelist -> wait -> Duelist).I'm not arguing that the stats gained from Mirage are worse than Chaos. They're comparable, literally equal on paper. The gains you get from running Mirage are pretty insignificant and not going to boost your DPS by 6k.The majority of a Condi Mesmer's DPS is Duelist. Like, almost 60% unlike Power Mes where it's 40-50%.

Power damage is relatively negligible in a Condi setup, even running full Viper (auto attack power damage accounts for ~8-10% of your total DPS). Confusing Images accounts for another 4%.

Over the course of several hours of DPS testing during the preview weekend, I was very consistently getting Axe/Pistol mirage (3 duelists) numbers 25-30% higher than the Sc/P core condi mes setup. Furthermore, my axe DPS setup with 0 phantasms (still using dust cloak) was out damaging the core condi mes using duelists by roughly 20%.

What numbers were you getting? How/where were you testing?

As far as traits are concerned:You're welcome to make the argument that 20% condi duration, 12s AoE bleeds on dodge and some fraction of 150 condi damage you get from Mirage traits is worse than the 100 condi damage and 18%-ish condi duration from Chaos traits. I would disagree with that assessment, but I don't think it would be unreasonable to assume that those trait options are very close at least.

TL;DR - traits are pretty close, but axe damage absolutely crushes scepter damage. Expect a ballpark of 25% DPS boost over core condi mes.

I mean, I'm not saying that the 20% Condi Duration and 150 Condi Damage is bad. I'm just saying that numerically it's almost equal to Chaos (which is, for the umpteenth time, what you're trading for Mirage). The advantages are you get actual traits, such as Riddle of Sand, Mirrored Axes, and Sand Shards.

And yes, you're right that you can squeeze out every last drop of DPS by running Axe, but you lose out on range, and if you're going Melee as a Mesmer, you're now fighting Power Mesmer territory, who has significantly higher DPS than Condi Mesmer, as well as access to more evasion(BF)/utility(slots).

The damage is not absolutely crushing, either. If you look at actual numbers, Duelists end up pumping out more than 50% of your damage output on a Condi build. The rest of your damage is pitifully through Confusion (~10-15%), Torment (~10-13%), and Burning (~6%). Your Power damage is very minimal through Confusing Images (~4%), Ether Clone (~3%), Ether Bolt (~2%), and Ether Blast (~2%). Even the Duelist's power damage makes you look like an idiot, sitting at 10-15% of your total damage output. So while you may gain the advantage of slightly higher damage on the Axe auto attacks and Sand Shards, you're also sacrificing the whole purpose of being a Condi Mesmer in lieu of slightly higher DPS.

Weakness is not always directly correlated to numerical damage.

Yes, you have higher theoretical numbers, but there's a reason why Power Mesmer is able to get high DPS on fights (usually top/near top DPS in groups) even though it doesn't have the highest "realistic" benchmark by any means. As soon as mechanics kick in, you lose damage. As soon as you have to position, you lose damage. As soon as you have to avoid certain areas, you lose damage. Power Mesmer can ignore almost every mechanic while maintaining ramped damage. The main issue with it is that it lacks range, so if you get hit by a mechanic that forces you to stay back or reposition, you lose hefty damage. Most bosses this will only last a second or two, but on some bosses you lose out on huge amounts of damage output (Matthias, Cairn Shared Agony). In these cases, it's arguably better (not necessarily in Cairn) to run Condi Mesmer if you are running DPS Mesmer. This is because you can negate the loss of DPS when positioning or dealing with mobility mechanics by still DPSing from afar. If you trade Scepter for Axe, you gain damage bonuses when positioning next to the boss, but that completely dismisses the advantage of going Scepter Condi Mesmer and you're now competing with Power Mesmer in terms of DPS, which is a fight you're not going to win, even in the Condi Meta.

[Knox.8962]

Explain to me how axe duelist condi mirage is at a disadvantage to sword power mesmer if both do similar DPS on the golem?

Power mes has to either dodge a mechanic or delay blurred frenzy (by far the highest DPS skill they have) and then interrupt their current cast in order to avoid a mechanic. Either way they sacrifice some (albeit small) DPS to stay on the target.

The condi mirage literally gains damage every time they have to avoid a mechanic.

For something like gorseval slam, you just keep attacking while you blur, and for something like black circles on deimos where you need to relocate yourself (if for some reason couldn't just side step) you can just use jaunt.

[TheFrighteningFrenchFry.32]

@Esplen.3940 said:

@TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275 said:

@Esplen.3940 said:

@TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275 said:Self-Deception. Quit literally, and the trait :P

There's no Deception skill with lower than a 20s cooldown. The average Deception cooldown is 30s, with a minimum of 20, and a maximum of 45. Condi Mesmer in Raids can't typically afford a utility slot to be given up, and even if you do give it up, you're sacrificing a lot of damage output (Sig of Dom/Midnight) or group utility (Sig of Humility/Feedback) or ramp time (Sig of Ether).

Jaunt, and alacrity from other party members. Sorry, but I just couldn't let you get away with a snidy comment : P

45s Reduced to 33s with 100% Alacrity uptime. Definitely lower than 20s.

"Count Recharge: 20s"

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Jaunt

[Mitzruti.5719]

I've seen a few people saying axe2 is a problem from killing phants, but that sceptre auto is somehow magically okay despite that is also spawns clones constantly.Is this just people talking out their ass, or is it just bugged? thought all clone spawns are blocked when you're full on phants.

@Exciton.8942 said:

If you go for clone build, you won't be able to take dune cloak as you will need infinite horizon. That already loses you 20% condition duration.

I don't really feel 3 clones with IH can do as much damage as 3 pistol phantasms. The upside is that you can shatter for a bit more damage but I am really not sure if it can make up the difference. Also you want scepter clones not axe clones to do optimal dps. So axe 2 is still bad in this case.

Overall, I am not very hopeful on a clone build.

Axe clones have the best autoattack (as a bonus, they cleave), and scepter clones auto is godawful (in part because they do not do their full combo)Axebush is questionable at best; you really don't want to interrupt their combo chain. meanwhile, sceptrebush is gutted for clones because reasons.

Unless ambushes get a significant buff, you're still going to run dune cloak on clone builds atm.possible exception for staff, because staffbush is actually decent (if it hits, but that's a pvp problem). but axe clones have a noticeably stronger auto than staff, so I'm doubtful "decent" will be enough to close the gap.

[Hot Boy.7138]

Mirage is a better for me than Chrono in pvp/wvw because of my unique playstyle. I don't see it being a better option in pve.

[Esplen.3940]

@TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275 said:"Count Recharge: 20s"

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Jaunt

Whoops, in my head it was 45s per charge.

[Pyroatheist.9031]

@Mitzruti.5719 said:I've seen a few people saying axe2 is a problem from killing phants, but that sceptre auto is somehow magically okay despite that is also spawns clones constantly.Is this just people talking out their kitten, or is it just bugged? thought all clone spawns are blocked when you're full on phants.

Scepter auto explicitly states that at full illusions it deals extra conditions instead of summoning a clone.

[Refia Montes.3205]

All clone generators replace illusions (phantasms included) except sceptre auto. It would be better if it worked for every skill/trait. But I see some of its use mostly with sword clone and boonripping

[Esplen.3940]

Also sword clone for the location swap.

[Carighan.6758]

@Mitzruti.5719 said:I've seen a few people saying axe2 is a problem from killing phants, but that sceptre auto is somehow magically okay despite that is also spawns clones constantly.Is this just people talking out their kitten, or is it just bugged? thought all clone spawns are blocked when you're full on phants.

Sadly, the "fix" ANet put in place is only for the AA of Scepter. It explicitly states that it'll deal extra condition damage instead of spawning another clone when you already have 3 illusions up.

[FaboBabo.3581]

@Esplen.3940 said:

@FaboBabo.3581 said:Axe 2 is the skill most ppl complain about, it never summons a clone. I think u could work with this, if it stays like that. I think swaping weapons adds way more Dmg the u think tbh. Scepter 3 has a cooldown and scepter 2 is situational. Using the cooldowns and swap to axe should significantly increase ur DPS, since on SCepter u'd just Auto Attack.

You don't use Scepter 2. Scepter 3 has an effective 9s cooldown, as well as the auto attack providing enough Condis. You can milk out ~2 more stacks of a condition by properly timing your weapon swap, but that makes you lose your range for literally 2 stacks of a condition (the bonus condis gained from Axe3). You could most definitely do that, but it's not a worthy tradeoff. You're forcing yourself to lose the only advantage you have in order to gain ~4.5 Confusion every 9s.

Range is a thing i agree, but afaik there are other Meeles in Raids. Am i wrong here?I dont feel like i'd need Precision over ferocity, so i'd take Griever instead. Sinisty would give me 4% Precision, while Grieiving gives me 10% More ferocity. 10% Ferocity should be worth way more tbh.

Most arguements i see is ; yeah its more damage, but only a little bit.More dmg = More dmg

I suppose there's no end to saying the same thing over and over again to different people.In Raids, the

only reason

Condi Mesmer is brought over Power Mesmer is because it has Range, making it a more reliable option versus Matthias. Any other time, you opt for Power Mesmer, which has no range and far superior damage output (and no, switching to Mirage won't bring you that close, the difference is huge).

In terms of your Ferocity gain, that equates to a 7% power damage increase at the cost of 225 Condition Damage. The Condition Damage loss is 11% while at 25 stacks of Might, up to 14% with no Might. The 7% damage loss is pretty insignificant because the bulk of your damage is Condi, which makes the 11% damage loss extremely noticeable.

Also, I'm not quite sure why you're running Power Infusions and if you're all about milking that extra damage, you should be running Riddle of Sand for the extra 2 Confusion at the start of a fight.

I just realised if i'd switch the grieving stats with sinister it would give a only 44 condition damage more, dont know where the 225 comes from. So i'd argue again ; 11% ferocity is better then 44 condition damage. im using a pretty normal way to get 100% condiduration. mostl ppl take something like trapper + nightmare , while i think my way is fitting for mirrage; gettin bleeding , confusion and torment on almost the same passive lvl and building the rest as general duration. U can even choose to go with plate of fire plank steak for another 100 power and 70 condi damage, since u dont need the duration here.

[Esplen.3940]

@FaboBabo.3581 said:I just realised if i'd switch the grieving stats with sinister it would give a only 44 condition damage more, dont know where the 225 comes from. So i'd argue again ; 11% ferocity is better then 44 condition damage. im using a pretty normal way to get 100% condiduration. mostl ppl take something like trapper + nightmare , while i think my way is fitting for mirrage; gettin bleeding , confusion and torment on almost the same passive lvl and building the rest as general duration. U can even choose to go with plate of fire plank steak for another 100 power and 70 condi damage, since u dont need the duration here.

Your runes make up a difference, as well. Most of the people who use Trapper + Nightmare (or other combination of non-Berserker runes) do so because they don't have good access to Condition Duration in Traits/Utilities. Mesmer can gain 32% relatively easily (slight screwiness, but 32% is easy to maintain) and Mirage can gain 40%. As such, you can opt for more offensives Runes which make up the difference. I took the stats on your build template and compared it to the stats on an equivalent "min max" condi build template (without infusions). I ignore your infusions as they're Power infusions on a condi build.

[expandas.7051]

Mirage allows you to play glass shatter Mesmer within a zerg, albeit extremely selfishly.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vhAQNAR8dnknBVphFrBeqBMMjFVDjMAUAKOldgjz2w/AuAjgA-w

• GS4 --> GS2 --> dodge for shared evades --> point blank shatter with 3 illusions
• F4 --> F5 --> F4 right before warden spawns --> S3 & dodge for shared evades --> point blank shatter with 3 illusions

I wish Blurred Inscriptions and Inspiring Distortion had their positions swapped, with Mirage Cloak granting distortion instead of evades.

[Esplen.3940]

That's just standard power shatter mesmer. Technically it's weaker since it doesn't run Illusions.

[expandas.7051]

Without Infinite Horizon your core shatter mesmer will have its illusions cleaved down while trying to set up the burst.

[Esplen.3940]

Shatter Mesmers don't have that issue because they don't try to pull off fancy shatters. It's a lot more crude in application. Your rotation only requires a Mirage Cloak because you want to summon a GS4 before the burst. The Focus combo is pretty standard, as well.Both attack patterns don't benefit from Mirage other than giving you an extra second before shattering due to IH. Additionally, the GS Ambush is pretty weak, and the Sword Ambush relieves pressure more than it adds damage.

[expandas.7051]

Silly me and my fancy shatters.

[Arshay Duskbrow.1306]

The answer is no. Not in any role, not in any game mode. This spec is stillborn.

[Daharahj.1325]

Something for you guys to keep in mind; Firebrand has access to perma-quickness for the group and Renegade now has alacrity. Chrono's niche is being taken away.

For that reason alone Mirage might see more play in PvE, and let's get this misconception out of the way: Chrono does not, in any way shape or form, have more sustained condition damage than Mirage. The math doesn't add up.

[Refia Montes.3205]

@Daharahj.1325 said:Something for you guys to keep in mind; Firebrand has access to perma-quickness for the group and Renegade now has alacrity. Chrono's niche is being taken away.

For that reason alone Mirage might see more play in PvE, and let's get this misconception out of the way: Chrono does not, in any way shape or form, have more sustained condition damage than Mirage. The math doesn't add up.

Chrono do has however 25k dps when traited and build to only sustain perma Alacrity. Renegade does have Alacrity but to maintain perma alacrity it requires him to run Ventari. Maybe it would move it to Firebrand+Chrono instead of Firebrand+Renegade.

[Esplen.3940]

@Daharahj.1325 said:Something for you guys to keep in mind; Firebrand has access to perma-quickness for the group and Renegade now has alacrity. Chrono's niche is being taken away.

For that reason alone Mirage might see more play in PvE, and let's get this misconception out of the way: Chrono does not, in any way shape or form, have more sustained condition damage than Mirage. The math doesn't add up.

What.

What.

What.

You'd trade 2 Supports (2 Chrono) for 4 Supports (2 Firebrand, 2 Renegade)? You do know the current "meta" only has 4 DPS slots, and you want to shunt that down to 2?

Also, Core Mesmer is the sustained Condi Damage spec, and it has relatively equal output as Mirage.

Sidenote:Firebrand perma quickness is reliant on a way to bypass the ICD of a trait.Renegade perma alacrity relies on a strict Kalla-Ventari Energy rotation meaning you have low to no damage output. It also may not actually reach 100% uptime.