Will Mirage be better than Chrono in any situation?

[otto.5684]

@OriOri.8724 said:

@Zenith.7301 said:It seems like they only care to give actual DPS traits and utilities to thieves, warriors, and guardians only.

It's laughable how Guardian traps are necromancer wells on steroids with almost half the cooldown and they provide boons instead.

Thief staff auto does more DPS than 100 blades or blurred frenzy, and many times more than our sword auto. And to top it off, thief staff auto also has a reflect component.

Warrior gets to sit on a spec that does 30k DPS while also contributing a raid DPS of about 15k per subgroup a PS warrior is in.

But the best mesmer DPS spec (core mesmer power) can't even aoe, has significant ramp up, and doesn't even break 30k DPS.

They seem hellbent on keeping mesmer, power ranger, and power necro in the DPS gutter. They nerfed condi ranger into irrelevance and condi necro is mediocre despite providing little group utility.

This stems, at least partly, from our contradictory class mechanic. They can't buff our personal DPS too much, otherwise it could be OP when we can have 3 phantasms up for prolonged periods of time (made even worse now with PF). Likewise, they can't solely rely on phantasms (even though they seem kitten bent on trying) due to significant ramp up time and the single target mechanic.

Until they go back and fix core mesmer mechanic problems, I doubt we will ever see a cohesive DPS spec that is both flexible in different situations and also not completely broken in some way.

Sad, but true.

I started GW2 as Mesmer main, few month before HoT release. While chrono is strong, I greatly disliked because of its over reliance on shatter.

In Mirage in particular it seemed as a poorly designed concept. You use illusions to "hide," yet shatter them to dodge. You cannot even maintain phantasms with shatter, like chrono does. Will see how it works

[Esplen.3940]

@TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275 said:I'm confused, what builds are you considering? Are you thinking dueling will be better than chaos for mirage? Also, when you say scepter is significantly better than axe, are you presuming triggering illusionary counter off CD?

Condi Mesmer PvE BuildAs such, the comparable equivalent Condi Mirage build will be as shown

You say the only advantage of mirage is not moving while dodging, but, presuming your version of a mirage build (not taking chaos, taking scepter, dune cloak, ), these are the real trade offs:

Condi Mesmer:

Chaotic Transference - Gain condition damage based on your toughness (10%) = 100 condition damageChaotic Persistence - Outgoing boon and condition duration for every boon on you = 15% in an average situation?

Condi Mirage:

Mirage Cloak/Ether Barrage: Unknown DPS increase ( no downtime of skills while dodging + nice condi spell )Crystal Sands: Unknown DPS increaseRiddle of Sand: Unknown DPS increaseNomad's Endurance - Shatter skills give vigor, which grants condition damage: Unknown uptimeDune Cloak - Use Sand Shards when you gain Mirage Cloak. Conditions applied to bleeding foes have increased duration (20%): 20% permanent condition duration + extra bleeds

That's 5 different things, so while your version of a Mirage build wouldn't change too much from base mesmer, it's certainly more than you made it out to be. It will definitely be interesting to see how axe fairs vs scepter when we get access to raid golems.

Ok, I've stated this before but I can't find it and I don't really care to redirect you so here goes:

Chaos provides: 100-270 Condition Damage (100 in Raids with 100% uptime) and 0-33% Condition Duration (Minimum 9, average 18, Peak 27).Mirage provides: 150 Condition Damage (??? uptime, not close to 100% unless you have a PS Deadeye with 100% bd or a Chaos Chrono) and 20% Condition Duration (100% uptime in Raids)

The downtime of dodging is quite literally 0.75s and let me ask you these questions:

Do you dodge before an attack hits you or as it hits you? Do you ever dodge pre-emptively to get out of the way of attacks? Have you ever dodged for the movement to reposition or avoid known attacks? Have you ever dodged to cancel a skill?

These are all things a Mirage can't do. The only time dodging will impact your damage output is when you are in the middle of Scepter3, in regards to a Condi build. Also, Ether Barrage is only a slight damage increase over just auto attacking, and by incorporating your dodge into your rotation, you impact your survivability pretty heftily. We don't have good access to Vigor or Endurance Regen so it's not really fair to say that Ether Barrage is a huge DPS increase. You'll use it when you dodge, but you won't really dodge to use it.

Crystal Sands is terrible DPS for what it's fighting for. Assuming all 6 shards hit, you get a decent damage output, but a Condi Mesmer doesn't have free Utility slots (Signet of Dom + Midnight, Feedback vs Matthias). If you're using it vs a boss other than Matthias, that's fine, but Condi Mes isn't brought for anything else.Riddle of Sand gets out once. You aren't going to shatter to get it out again.Sand Shards from Dune Cloak is less than 700 DPS if you somehow manage to have the 100% perfect scenario (not counting power damage as that's somewhat hard to calculate). Source The bleeding is pretty minimal, and it requires you to sacrifice the whole reason you bring Condi Mes over Power Mes (ranged damage). Dune Cloak is fine, but Sand Shards should not be considered a damage increase as it is similar to an Ambush: something you get when it happens, but you shouldn't build your rotation around it.

So no, that's really not.And the reason why Scepter is significantly better than Axe is because Axe's high damage (condi) attack is Axe2, because it has 8 whirl finishes. But it spawns a clone, meaning it's unusable in Raids. The Axe auto attacks are roughly the same as Scepter, and the Axe3 is a really, really weak attack. Yes it provides 5 Confusion on an 8-10s cd with 0.75s cast time, but it also repositions you randomly which may put you in a bad spot (gl if it ports you outside of VG arena or into a flaming tornado vs Matthias or into the poison vs Slothasar). Additionally, and I can keep saying this again and again, the point of being a Condi Mesmer in raids is partially for your ranged damage output. By going in melee, what separates you from a Power Mesmer? Next to nothing, especially when you have significantly lower DPS if there aren't mechanics forcing you off the boss.

[Zenith.7301]

@Exciton.8942 said:For PvP mirage, the only possible role it can be viable is to become a top-tier duelist.

Just like mesmer, mirage needs clone to do damage no matter you go for shatter or clone ambush. However, clones die like flies in teamfight. So mirage is just gonna kitten in teamfight without utility like F5 moa or gravity that chrono can do.

Currently chrono is a decent duelist but loses to scrapper, some warrior builds, SD thief, many guardian builds. Only if mirage build is so strong to compete against those, it can have some potential viability.

It loses to any competent thief and even some properly specced revs as well.

Chrono is only really relevant in PvP because of portal and moa, in every other way it's a lesser version of a thief. It has higher burst potential but the burst is far more telegraphed and the clones themselves die before they reach a target to cleave unlike steal combos (because steal for some reason is still instant, which is ridiculous), with longer cd's.

Nobody can really touch daredevil on roaming, and if we want point duelists druid and scrapper already exist and do the job far better anyways.

[Windwalker.7421]

Oh yee of little faith! ;-)

We have a "for profit" company releasing an Xpac to an aging game; a game that is otherwise completely free to play. (After 2 years of no expansions no less.)

Are they going to put a conservative stance on game balance over profits, at all cost?

• Exhibit A: HoT

Really? Do any of you actually believe Mirage will be terrible/boring?

~15 Minutes of Dev time on just tweaking the existing Mirage, just as we saw on BWE, will be more than enough to turn it into a very strong Elite. The cool thing is, the one thing many people are lamenting, is that Mirage is almost guaranteed to leave Chrono viable/fun/playable, because it is so fundamentally different. That in no way means that Mirage will be terrible or that you won't want to have one on your PvP team. (Sorry to say, but I do feel that it is intended to be more of a PvP Elite, or maybe a solo open world PvE I guess too.) It is clearly a very Thief-like Elite, and especially as compared to Condie Chrono, I have to believe that playing one will be loads more fun.

Maybe I'll be the one eating my words in a few days, but my money's on capitalism every time. ;-) (Pun intended.)

It is pretty hard to "overhear" the very vocal lamenting over Mirage in BWE on this board, and elsewhere, and I doubt they will turn a blind eye to this input. They want to sell this Xpac, so they will make every Elite either blatantly OPd, or ridiculously fun to play, or both.

[Curunen.8729]

@Windwalker.7421 said:Oh yee of little faith! ;-)

We have a "for profit" company releasing an Xpac to an aging game; a game that is otherwise completely free to play. (After 2 years of no expansions no less.)

Are they going to put a conservative stance on game balance over profits, at all cost?

• Exhibit A: HoT

Really? Do any of you actually believe Mirage will be terrible/boring?

~15 Minutes of Dev time on just tweaking the existing Mirage, just as we saw on BWE, will be more than enough to turn it into a very strong Elite. The cool thing is, the one thing many people are lamenting, is that Mirage is almost guaranteed to leave Chrono viable/fun/playable, because it is so fundamentally different. That in no way means that Mirage will be terrible or that you won't want to have one on your PvP team. (Sorry to say, but I do feel that it is intended to be more of a PvP Elite, or maybe a solo open world PvE I guess too.) It is clearly a very Thief-like Elite, and especially as compared to Condie Chrono, I have to believe that playing one will be loads more fun.

Maybe I'll be the one eating my words in a few days, but my money's on capitalism every time. ;-) (Pun intended.)

It is pretty hard to "overhear" the very vocal lamenting over Mirage in BWE on this board, and elsewhere, and I doubt they will turn a blind eye to this input. They want to sell this Xpac, so they will make every Elite either blatantly OPd, or ridiculously fun to play, or both.

Agreed - it's not going to be bad and will certainly be good enough to sell enough copies of PoF. Whether that means it's fixed up by friday or within the next few weeks/months, it'll definitely be worth playing.

Whether players prefer chrono or mirage is another thing altogether, and tbh it'll be very healthy for the game's variety if there is no clear winner when compared across different game modes.

Whatever the situation - the mechanics are certainly fun and personally more fun than spamming shatters under alacrity.

[FaboBabo.3581]

Thats my Mirrage raid build for example ; http://de.gw2skills.net/editor/?vhAQRAna7anELD1LjVoBOoBMMjlVDzvA2AngldgjTAAdLcGqCA-jVSAQBA4kA0V1dCo+hIqSg12HgtKBDpyPP8EAW3CDrDGAmIlgZmZmGZmZmZmpUAVpsC-w

SHOULD have more dps than mesmer, cause we use axe CD's when scepter is off cooldown, and those provide us with conditions rather then with sword and only power dmg.Dune cloak gives us the needed 100% condi- duration on all 3 damaging condis we have. This provides us with extra ferocity. Scepter ambush should be used more then Axe. Can be afford by delaying weapon swaps by 1 or 2 seconds, while not doing ambushes preswaping scepter IF u got 50 endurance or less.

Argument that scepter is better then Axe in condition build is something i dont understand tbh : u dont swap sceper for axe, u swap the sword. Sword does a bit more power dmg on foes without boons then axe auto. and sword 2 does a big chunk more dmg. Therefore axe 2 has a lower CD and we get Axe 3, while sword 3 does no dmg. Should be an upgrade in terms of dmg, because we have those conditions.

[Esplen.3940]

@FaboBabo.3581 said:Argument that scepter is better then Axe in condition build is something i dont understand tbh : u dont swap sceper for axe, u swap the sword. Sword does a bit more power dmg on foes without boons then axe auto. and sword 2 does a big chunk more dmg. Therefore axe 2 has a lower CD and we get Axe 3, while sword 3 does no dmg. Should be an upgrade in terms of dmg, because we have those conditions.

Wot. I think you have a misunderstanding of how to wield weapons. You don't run Scepter + Sword on a Condi set. You run Scepter/Torch + /Pistol.

Yes, you can run Scepter + Axe, but the damage gain is pretty minimal because you're only going to be using Axe3 which isn't a large damage increase. The loss of range, however, is something you should be concerned about.

If you want to milk extra stats, don't run grieving. You should be running Sinister. You're also sacrificing a lot of stats to get to 100% condition duration when you could just be running full Vipers and a rare veggie pizza. Sure you don't get that cheesy endurance regen and sigil of energy for more ambushes, but you're wasting a ton of stats to get there.

And I don't know how many times I have to say it, but:Axe2 is not a usable skill in raids because it summons a clone.Axe3 is a pitiful damage increase compared to Axe2 (and Scepter3).Dune Cloak and Nomad's Endurance's stat gains are almost word for word what we get from Chaos (which is what we trade for Mirage).Sand Shards requires you to be melee and is a very, very small damage increase.

Lastly, if you force yourself to run Axe or use Sand Shards, you trade the only factor that Condi Mesmer is taken over Power Mesmer and that's range. The only reasons why Condi Mesmer is better than Power Mesmer versus Matthias is because you don't have to move as much, and you can continue attacking sooner after a mechanic. By putting on an Axe, you forfeit those advantages and might as well run Power Mesmer (which has significantly higher DPS with less skills to use).

[TheFrighteningFrenchFry.32]

@Esplen.3940 said:

@TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275 said:I'm confused, what builds are you considering? Are you thinking dueling will be better than chaos for mirage? Also, when you say scepter is significantly better than axe, are you presuming triggering illusionary counter off CD?

Condi Mesmer PvE Build

As such, the comparable equivalent Condi Mirage build will be

as shown

You say the only advantage of mirage is not moving while dodging, but,

presuming your version of a mirage build

(not taking chaos, taking scepter, dune cloak, ), these are the real trade offs:

Condi Mesmer:

Chaotic Transference - Gain condition damage based on your toughness (10%) = 100 condition damageChaotic Persistence - Outgoing boon and condition duration for every boon on you = 15% in an average situation?

Condi Mirage:

Mirage Cloak/Ether Barrage: Unknown DPS increase ( no downtime of skills while dodging + nice condi spell )Crystal Sands: Unknown DPS increaseRiddle of Sand: Unknown DPS increaseNomad's Endurance - Shatter skills give vigor, which grants condition damage: Unknown uptimeDune Cloak - Use Sand Shards when you gain Mirage Cloak. Conditions applied to bleeding foes have increased duration (20%): 20% permanent condition duration + extra bleeds

That's 5 different things, so while your version of a Mirage build wouldn't change too much from base mesmer, it's certainly more than you made it out to be. It will definitely be interesting to see how axe fairs vs scepter when we get access to raid golems.

Ok, I've stated this before but I can't find it and I don't really care to redirect you so here goes:

Chaos provides: 100-270 Condition Damage (100 in Raids with 100% uptime) and 0-33% Condition Duration (Minimum 9, average 18, Peak 27).Mirage provides: 150 Condition Damage (??? uptime, not close to 100% unless you have a PS Deadeye with 100% bd or a Chaos Chrono) and 20% Condition Duration (100% uptime in Raids)

The downtime of dodging is quite literally 0.75s and let me ask you these questions:

Do you dodge before an attack hits you or as it hits you? Do you ever dodge pre-emptively to get out of the way of attacks? Have you ever dodged for the movement to reposition or avoid known attacks? Have you ever dodged to cancel a skill?

I dodge to get an evade frame, normally it's slightly before an attack hits, so as to still have the evade frame when the attack hits. I hardly ever dodge just for the movement, but I do occasionally in fractals, simply to get out of melee range when I'm low on health and don't trust my reaction timing enough to continue meleeing. Occasionally this can get me killed, because the boss uses a ranged attack or leaps at me just as my evade backwards is ending.

However, IF I was using a scepter condition build and I was in melee range, I'd simply dodge and use the teleport of the ambush skill to get out of melee range.

Instead of using my dodge to cancel a skill, I stow my weapon. Having done some PvP years ago I quickly learned that using a dodge to cancel a skill was extremely wasteful, while using a stow weapon to cancel costs nothing.

These are all things a Mirage can't do. The only time dodging will impact your damage output is when you are in the middle of Scepter3, in regards to a Condi build. Also, Ether Barrage is only a slight damage increase over just auto attacking, and by incorporating your dodge into your rotation, you impact your survivability pretty heftily. We don't have good access to Vigor or Endurance Regen so it's not really fair to say that Ether Barrage is a huge DPS increase. You'll use it when you dodge, but you won't really dodge to use it.

Good is all relative, but if your going to run dueling, you do get close to 50% uptime on vigor. In fractals, you can run the fractal potion. You'll still only dodge to evade attacks, but it will prevent your damage from falling off when you do. Neither of us have numbers on the exact damage increase of ambush skills, but I find it odd you list trivial traits like 100 extra condition damage , only to scoff at an extra damage skill every 5-10 seconds.

Crystal Sands is terrible DPS for what it's fighting for. Assuming all 6 shards hit, you get a decent damage output, but a Condi Mesmer doesn't have free Utility slots (Signet of Dom + Midnight, Feedback vs Matthias). If you're using it vs a boss other than Matthias, that's fine, but Condi Mes isn't brought for anything else.

Yeah, if there is a utility skill that's needed over crystal sands, absolutely go for it.

Riddle of Sand gets out once. You aren't going to shatter to get it out again.

Yeah, I totally forgot about SoD, so I was thinking of mirror images to quickly get your clones back. It also seems you favor a phantasm build, so shattering would be costly too.

Sand Shards from Dune Cloak is less than 700 DPS if you somehow manage to have the 100% perfect scenario (not counting power damage as that's somewhat hard to calculate). Source The bleeding is pretty minimal, and it requires you to sacrifice the whole reason you bring Condi Mes over Power Mes (ranged damage). Dune Cloak is fine, but Sand Shards should not be considered a damage increase as it is similar to an Ambush: something you get when it happens, but you shouldn't build your rotation around it.

You, you shouldn't build it into your rotation, but it does provide some extra damage if your in melee range. However, you do bring up a good point, no reasons to be in melee range in the first place.

So no, that's really not.And the reason why Scepter is significantly better than Axe is because Axe's high damage (condi) attack is Axe2, because it has 8 whirl finishes. But it spawns a clone, meaning it's unusable in Raids. The Axe auto attacks are roughly the same as Scepter, and the Axe3 is a really, really weak attack. Yes it provides 5 Confusion on an 8-10s cd with 0.75s cast time, but it also repositions you randomly which may put you in a bad spot (gl if it ports you outside of VG arena or into a flaming tornado vs Matthias or into the poison vs Slothasar). Additionally, and I can keep saying this again and again, the point of being a Condi Mesmer in raids is partially for your ranged damage output. By going in melee, what separates you from a Power Mesmer? Next to nothing, especially when you have significantly lower DPS if there aren't mechanics forcing you off the boss.

Yeah, if going to run phantasms, axe is bad. But how does axe + clones work out? I guess we'll have to wait for raid golem DPS tests with Mirage. The axe re-position could be disastrous in certain fights, but in others ( such as some fractals ), it could be safe to use.

I probably will use scepter, simply because of it being ranged. But axe by no means is to be under-estimated, and I'll be interested to see what it can do once it goes live.

Bonus: Seeing as other mesmers have in the past misunderstood my criticism of a few of their statements, I should clarify. Mirage is in no way a perfect elite spec, and some balance changes could most certainly help out.

[Exciton.8942]

@TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275 said:

Yeah, if going to run phantasms, axe is bad. But how does axe + clones work out? I guess we'll have to wait for raid golem DPS tests with Mirage. The axe re-position could be disastrous in certain fights, but in others ( such as some fractals ), it could be safe to use.

I probably will use scepter, simply because of it being ranged. But axe by no means is to be under-estimated, and I'll be interested to see what it can do once it goes live.

Bonus: Seeing as other mesmers have in the past misunderstood my criticism of a few of their statements, I should clarify. Mirage is in no way a perfect elite spec, and some balance changes could most certainly help out.

If you go for clone build, you won't be able to take dune cloak as you will need infinite horizon. That already loses you 20% condition duration.

I don't really feel 3 clones with IH can do as much damage as 3 pistol phantasms. The upside is that you can shatter for a bit more damage but I am really not sure if it can make up the difference. Also you want scepter clones not axe clones to do optimal dps. So axe 2 is still bad in this case.

Overall, I am not very hopeful on a clone build.

[FaboBabo.3581]

@Esplen.3940 said:

@FaboBabo.3581 said:Argument that scepter is better then Axe in condition build is something i dont understand tbh : u dont swap sceper for axe, u swap the sword. Sword does a bit more power dmg on foes without boons then axe auto. and sword 2 does a big chunk more dmg. Therefore axe 2 has a lower CD and we get Axe 3, while sword 3 does no dmg. Should be an upgrade in terms of dmg, because we have those conditions.

Wot. I think you have a misunderstanding of how to wield weapons. You don't run Scepter + Sword on a Condi set. You run Scepter/Torch + /Pistol.

Yes, you can run Scepter + Axe, but the damage gain is pretty minimal because you're only going to be using Axe3 which isn't a large damage increase. The loss of range, however, is something you should be concerned about.

If you want to milk extra stats, don't run grieving. You should be running Sinister. You're also sacrificing a lot of stats to get to 100% condition duration when you could just be running full Vipers and a rare veggie pizza. Sure you don't get that cheesy endurance regen and sigil of energy for more ambushes, but you're wasting a ton of stats to get there.

And I don't know how many times I have to say it, but:Axe2 is not a usable skill in raids because it summons a clone.Axe3 is a pitiful damage increase compared to Axe2 (and Scepter3).Dune Cloak and Nomad's Endurance's stat gains are almost word for word what we get from Chaos (which is what we trade for Mirage).Sand Shards requires you to be melee and is a very, very small damage increase.

Lastly, if you force yourself to run Axe or use Sand Shards, you trade the only factor that Condi Mesmer is taken over Power Mesmer and that's range. The only reasons why Condi Mesmer is better than Power Mesmer versus Matthias is because you don't have to move as much, and you can continue attacking sooner after a mechanic. By putting on an Axe, you forfeit those advantages and might as well run Power Mesmer (which has significantly higher DPS with less skills to use).

Axe 2 is the skill most ppl complain about, it never summons a clone. I think u could work with this, if it stays like that. I think swaping weapons adds way more Dmg the u think tbh. Scepter 3 has a cooldown and scepter 2 is situational. Using the cooldowns and swap to axe should significantly increase ur DPS, since on SCepter u'd just Auto Attack.

Range is a thing i agree, but afaik there are other Meeles in Raids. Am i wrong here?I dont feel like i'd need Precision over ferocity, so i'd take Griever instead. Sinisty would give me 4% Precision, while Grieiving gives me 10% More ferocity. 10% Ferocity should be worth way more tbh.

Most arguements i see is ; yeah its more damage, but only a little bit.More dmg = More dmg

[TheFrighteningFrenchFry.32]

@Exciton.8942 said:

@TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275 said:

Yeah, if going to run phantasms, axe is bad. But how does axe + clones work out? I guess we'll have to wait for raid golem DPS tests with Mirage. The axe re-position could be disastrous in certain fights, but in others ( such as some fractals ), it could be safe to use.

I probably will use scepter, simply because of it being ranged. But axe by no means is to be under-estimated, and I'll be interested to see what it can do once it goes live.

Bonus: Seeing as other mesmers have in the past misunderstood my criticism of a few of their statements, I should clarify. Mirage is in no way a perfect elite spec, and some balance changes could most certainly help out.

If you go for clone build, you won't be able to take dune cloak as you will need infinite horizon. That already loses you 20% condition duration.

I don't really feel 3 clones with IH can do as much damage as 3 pistol phantasms. The upside is that you can shatter for a bit more damage but I am really not sure if it can make up the difference.

Overall, I am not very hopeful on a clone build.

Yeah, we'll have to see. In a perfect world we would get IH baseline. One can hope : )

[Esplen.3940]

@TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275 said:I dodge to get an evade frame, normally it's slightly before an attack hits, so as to still have the evade frame when the attack hits. I hardly ever dodge just for the movement, but I do occasionally in fractals, simply to get out of melee range when I'm low on health and don't trust my reaction timing enough to continue meleeing. Occasionally this can get me killed, because the boss uses a ranged attack or leaps at me just as my evade backwards is ending.

I noted that specifically because as I was raiding today, I realized that I dodged attacks with my dodge button, but most of the time I don't dodge as the attack hits. I dodge to get out of the way of the attack (or circle, etc). There are some exceptions, such as Slothasar where you dodge both for the movement and evade (during his slamming ground attacks).

These are all things a Mirage can't do. The only time dodging will impact your damage output is when you are in the middle of Scepter3, in regards to a Condi build. Also, Ether Barrage is only a slight damage increase over just auto attacking, and by incorporating your dodge into your rotation, you impact your survivability pretty heftily. We don't have good access to Vigor or Endurance Regen so it's not really fair to say that Ether Barrage is a huge DPS increase. You'll use it when you dodge, but you won't really dodge to use it.

Good is all relative, but if your going to run dueling, you do get close to 50% uptime on vigor. In fractals, you can run the fractal potion. You'll still only dodge to evade attacks, but it will prevent your damage from falling off when you do. Neither of us have numbers on the exact damage increase of ambush skills, but I find it odd you list trivial traits like 100 extra condition damage , only to scoff at an extra damage skill every 5-10 seconds.

The reason why I brought up that trait is because there's no other reason for Condi Mesmer to run Chaos. It is quite literally brought for the stat gains from Minors than any Major it offers.

Condi Mesmer (or Mirage) is not wanted or ran in Fractals. The 50% uptime of Vigor is nice, but that puts the stat gain at an effective 75 Condition Damage vs the 100 from Chaos. Arguably, you can get more from bouncing SoI, but nothing is guaranteed when it comes to Vigor as that's not a boon that's necessary for anyone's rotation. If it was, they should be able to be self-sufficient (........).

Yeah, if going to run phantasms, axe is bad. But how does axe + clones work out? I guess we'll have to wait for raid golem DPS tests with Mirage. The axe re-position could be disastrous in certain fights, but in others ( such as some fractals ), it could be safe to use.

If you use Axe2, it will almost always spawn a clone in PvE (it has a pretty large range of spawning the clone). In PvP it may not spawn a clone due to enemies running away from the mirror or you. If you have 3 Phantasms out, the oldest Phantasm will get destroyed in place of the clone.

I probably will use scepter, simply because of it being ranged. But axe by no means is to be under-estimated, and I'll be interested to see what it can do once it goes live.

Bonus: Seeing as other mesmers have in the past misunderstood my criticism of a few of their statements, I should clarify. Mirage is in no way a perfect elite spec, and some balance changes could most certainly help out.

Axe is definitely strong, but it has glaring weaknesses. Mirage is supposed to be a mid-close range spec, but Axe is exclusively close range. Axe3 causes you and clones to leap, which means it can get stuck on terrain (there's a reason why Sword3 is no longer a leap even though it's a leap finisher). Axe2 is a very, very strong whirl, but it's not reliable. First, it leaves you vulnerable with no evade (the evade is on Axe3 instead). Second, if you want the clone, it's not guaranteed, but if you don't want the clone, it's almost guaranteed.

Yes that last statement is somewhat contradictory, but there's no way to use the ability without guaranteeing you don't get the clone. If you do want the clone, there's the off chance that it won't appear due to the enemy running away from you or juking/kiting.

As for the statement about me favoring Phantasm builds over Shatter, that's simply because Shatter isn't a reliable form of sustained DPS and I'm talking about PvE (for the most part).

[Samnang.1879]

I don't see mirage being useful in any situation. Unless anet makes the cloaking applies to maybe 2 or 3 other party members. But as it is, it's not useful, it's not like chronos don't have a zillion blocks/evades already.

Continuum split and quickness are just too OP. Also, shield 4 block is >>>> any of the mirage cloaks.

[Esplen.3940]

@FaboBabo.3581 said:Axe 2 is the skill most ppl complain about, it never summons a clone. I think u could work with this, if it stays like that. I think swaping weapons adds way more Dmg the u think tbh. Scepter 3 has a cooldown and scepter 2 is situational. Using the cooldowns and swap to axe should significantly increase ur DPS, since on SCepter u'd just Auto Attack.

You don't use Scepter 2. Scepter 3 has an effective 9s cooldown, as well as the auto attack providing enough Condis. You can milk out ~2 more stacks of a condition by properly timing your weapon swap, but that makes you lose your range for literally 2 stacks of a condition (the bonus condis gained from Axe3). You could most definitely do that, but it's not a worthy tradeoff. You're forcing yourself to lose the only advantage you have in order to gain ~4.5 Confusion every 9s.

Range is a thing i agree, but afaik there are other Meeles in Raids. Am i wrong here?I dont feel like i'd need Precision over ferocity, so i'd take Griever instead. Sinisty would give me 4% Precision, while Grieiving gives me 10% More ferocity. 10% Ferocity should be worth way more tbh.

Most arguements i see is ; yeah its more damage, but only a little bit.More dmg = More dmg

I suppose there's no end to saying the same thing over and over again to different people.In Raids, the only reason Condi Mesmer is brought over Power Mesmer is because it has Range, making it a more reliable option versus Matthias. Any other time, you opt for Power Mesmer, which has no range and far superior damage output (and no, switching to Mirage won't bring you that close, the difference is huge).

In terms of your Ferocity gain, that equates to a 7% power damage increase at the cost of 225 Condition Damage. The Condition Damage loss is 11% while at 25 stacks of Might, up to 14% with no Might. The 7% damage loss is pretty insignificant because the bulk of your damage is Condi, which makes the 11% damage loss extremely noticeable.

Also, I'm not quite sure why you're running Power Infusions and if you're all about milking that extra damage, you should be running Riddle of Sand for the extra 2 Confusion at the start of a fight.

[TheFrighteningFrenchFry.32]

@Esplen.3940 said:

@TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275 said:I dodge to get an evade frame, normally it's slightly before an attack hits, so as to still have the evade frame when the attack hits. I hardly ever dodge just for the movement, but I do occasionally in fractals, simply to get out of melee range when I'm low on health and don't trust my reaction timing enough to continue meleeing. Occasionally this can get me killed, because the boss uses a ranged attack or leaps at me just as my evade backwards is ending.

I noted that specifically because as I was raiding today, I realized that I dodged attacks with my dodge button, but most of the time I don't dodge as the attack hits. I dodge to get out of the way of the attack (or circle, etc). There are some exceptions, such as Slothasar where you dodge both for the movement and evade (during his slamming ground attacks).

These are all things a Mirage can't do. The only time dodging will impact your damage output is when you are in the middle of Scepter3, in regards to a Condi build. Also, Ether Barrage is only a slight damage increase over just auto attacking, and by incorporating your dodge into your rotation, you impact your survivability pretty heftily. We don't have good access to Vigor or Endurance Regen so it's not really fair to say that Ether Barrage is a huge DPS increase. You'll use it when you dodge, but you won't really dodge to use it.

Good is all relative, but if your going to run dueling, you do get close to 50% uptime on vigor. In fractals, you can run the fractal potion. You'll still only dodge to evade attacks, but it will prevent your damage from falling off when you do. Neither of us have numbers on the exact damage increase of ambush skills, but I find it odd you list trivial traits like 100 extra condition damage , only to scoff at an extra damage skill every 5-10 seconds.

The reason why I brought up that trait is because there's no other reason for Condi Mesmer to run Chaos. It is quite literally brought for the stat gains from Minors than any Major it offers.

Condi Mesmer (or Mirage) is not wanted or ran in Fractals. The 50% uptime of Vigor is nice, but that puts the stat gain at an effective 75 Condition Damage vs the 100 from Chaos. Arguably, you can get more from bouncing SoI, but nothing is guaranteed when it comes to Vigor as that's not a boon that's necessary for anyone's rotation. If it was, they should be able to be self-sufficient (........).

Yeah, if going to run phantasms, axe is bad. But how does axe + clones work out? I guess we'll have to wait for raid golem DPS tests with Mirage. The axe re-position could be disastrous in certain fights, but in others ( such as some fractals ), it could be safe to use.

If you use Axe2, it will almost always spawn a clone in PvE (it has a pretty large range of spawning the clone). In PvP it may not spawn a clone due to enemies running away from the mirror or you. If you have 3 Phantasms out, the oldest Phantasm will get destroyed in place of the clone.

I probably will use scepter, simply because of it being ranged. But axe by no means is to be under-estimated, and I'll be interested to see what it can do once it goes live.

Bonus: Seeing as other mesmers have in the past misunderstood my criticism of a few of their statements, I should clarify. Mirage is in no way a perfect elite spec, and some balance changes could most certainly help out.

Axe is definitely strong, but it has glaring weaknesses. Mirage is supposed to be a mid-close range spec, but Axe is exclusively close range. Axe3 causes you and clones to leap, which means it can get stuck on terrain (there's a reason why Sword3 is no longer a leap even though it's a leap finisher). Axe2 is a very, very strong whirl, but it's not reliable. First, it leaves you vulnerable with no evade (the evade is on Axe3 instead). Second, if you want the clone, it's not guaranteed, but if you don't want the clone, it's almost guaranteed.

Yes that last statement is somewhat contradictory, but there's no way to use the ability without guaranteeing you don't get the clone. If you do want the clone, there's the off chance that it won't appear due to the enemy running away from you or juking/kiting.

You can evade while using axe two, that's the beauty of mirage! Yeah, I wish axe 2 reliably generated a clone without some nonsense mechanic, it would make axe a lot better in PvE and PvP.

As for the statement about me favoring Phantasm builds over Shatter, that's simply because Shatter isn't a reliable form of sustained DPS and I'm talking about PvE (for the most part).

I don't mean a shatter build per say when I mentioned clones. Clones dish out conditions without shattering them, and then when you have the CDs up, you can shatter and quickly re-summon them to get in some extra conditions from the shatter.

Also, Exciton, I just remembered. You don't need to run dueling if you're running clones, so you could bring chaos, which would help out with the condition duration loss from taking IH. That's why I was questioning the usefulness of dueling in Esplen's build, but he went with pistol phantasm bleeds.

[Esplen.3940]

@TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275 said:You can evade while using axe two, that's the beauty of mirage! Yeah, I wish axe 2 reliably generated a clone without some nonsense mechanic, it would make axe a lot better in PvE and PvP.

Yes, but that's a forceful application of a bandaid as opposed to addressing the core issue. If you dodge everytime you use Axe2 to accommodate it's predictability, you end up forcing out your own dodges.

As for the statement about me favoring Phantasm builds over Shatter, that's simply because Shatter isn't a reliable form of sustained DPS and I'm talking about PvE (for the most part).

I don't mean a shatter build per say when I mentioned clones. Clones dish out conditions without shattering them, and then when you have the CDs up, you can shatter and quickly re-summon them to get in some extra conditions from the shatter.

You get a lot more conditions from a single Duelist than 3 clones + IH ambush + shatter every 16 seconds.

Also, Exciton, I just remembered. You don't need to run dueling if you're running clones, so you could bring chaos, which would help out with the condition duration loss from taking IH. That's why I was questioning the usefulness of dueling in Esplen's build, but he went with pistol phantasm bleeds.

Even in a clone build, you want Dueling for Sharper Images. Especially since clone ambushes will trigger it. And you'd probably still want Illusions because it provides a lot of good minors.

[TheFrighteningFrenchFry.32]

@Esplen.3940 said:

@TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275 said:You can evade while using axe two, that's the beauty of mirage! Yeah, I wish axe 2 reliably generated a clone without some nonsense mechanic, it would make axe a lot better in PvE and PvP.

Yes, but that's a forceful application of a bandaid as opposed to addressing the core issue. If you dodge everytime you use Axe2 to accommodate it's predictability, you end up forcing out your own dodges.

As for the statement about me favoring Phantasm builds over Shatter, that's simply because Shatter isn't a reliable form of sustained DPS and I'm talking about PvE (for the most part).

I don't mean a shatter build per say when I mentioned clones. Clones dish out conditions without shattering them, and then when you have the CDs up, you can shatter and quickly re-summon them to get in some extra conditions from the shatter.

You get a lot more conditions from a single Duelist than 3 clones + IH ambush + shatter every 16 seconds.

Well, now that is an exaggeration. Now I don't know if axe + clones is better than three duelists + scepter, but I'm definitely gonna want to check it out vs raid golem.

Also, Exciton, I just remembered. You don't need to run dueling if you're running clones, so you could bring chaos, which would help out with the condition duration loss from taking IH. That's why I was questioning the usefulness of dueling in Esplen's build, but he went with pistol phantasm bleeds.

Even in a clone build, you want Dueling for Sharper Images. Especially since clone ambushes will trigger it. And you'd probably still want Illusions because it provides a lot of good minors.

Yeah, that's a good point. I'd imagine sharper images should probably be better than running chaos, but that is also something to test out.

[Knox.8962]

You guys who think scepter + pistol phantasms is better than axe + pistol phantasms must have tested a drastically different game than I tested during the preview weekend. Axe/pistol condi mirage should be in the ballpark of 32k DPS with current numbers. If they buff anything, it should go higher than that.

[Esplen.3940]

@Knox.8962 said:You guys who think scepter + pistol phantasms is better than axe + pistol phantasms must have tested a drastically different game than I tested during the preview weekend. Axe/pistol condi mirage should be in the ballpark of 32k DPS with current numbers. If they buff anything, it should go higher than that.

The only way you're going to reach numbers that high is by using Axe2 which also lowers your sustained dps. In a fight of over 10s, Axe is going to perform roughly equally to Scepter, but with the added disadvantage of having to constantly summon Phantasms.

@TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275 said:

@Esplen.3940 said:You get a lot more conditions from a single Duelist than 3 clones + IH ambush + shatter every 16 seconds.

Well, now that is an exaggeration. Now I don't know if axe + clones is better than

three

duelists + scepter, but I'm definitely gonna want to check it out vs raid golem.

You're right. You can't actually maintain 3 clones every 16 seconds without 2 mainhand weapons.

[TheFrighteningFrenchFry.32]

@Esplen.3940 said:

@Knox.8962 said:You guys who think scepter + pistol phantasms is better than axe + pistol phantasms must have tested a drastically different game than I tested during the preview weekend. Axe/pistol condi mirage should be in the ballpark of 32k DPS with current numbers. If they buff anything, it should go higher than that.

The only way you're going to reach numbers that high is by using Axe2 which also lowers your sustained dps. In a fight of over 10s, Axe is going to perform roughly equally to Scepter, but with the added disadvantage of having to constantly summon Phantasms.

@TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275 said:

@Esplen.3940 said:You get a lot more conditions from a single Duelist than 3 clones + IH ambush + shatter every 16 seconds.

Well, now that is an exaggeration. Now I don't know if axe + clones is better than

three

duelists + scepter, but I'm definitely gonna want to check it out vs raid golem.

You're right. You can't actually maintain 3 clones every 16 seconds without 2 mainhand weapons.

Self-Deception. Quit literally, and the trait :P

[Knox.8962]

@Esplen.3940 said:

@Knox.8962 said:You guys who think scepter + pistol phantasms is better than axe + pistol phantasms must have tested a drastically different game than I tested during the preview weekend. Axe/pistol condi mirage should be in the ballpark of 32k DPS with current numbers. If they buff anything, it should go higher than that.

The only way you're going to reach numbers that high is by using Axe2 which also lowers your sustained dps. In a fight of over 10s, Axe is going to perform roughly equally to Scepter, but with the added disadvantage of having to constantly summon Phantasms.

We'll just have to agree to disagree.

[Abelisk.4527]

I think axe is mainly taken for ambush/axe 3, not dps.

[Esplen.3940]

@TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275 said:Self-Deception. Quit literally, and the trait :P

There's no Deception skill with lower than a 20s cooldown. The average Deception cooldown is 30s, with a minimum of 20, and a maximum of 45. Condi Mesmer in Raids can't typically afford a utility slot to be given up, and even if you do give it up, you're sacrificing a lot of damage output (Sig of Dom/Midnight) or group utility (Sig of Humility/Feedback) or ramp time (Sig of Ether).

@Knox.8962 said:

@Esplen.3940 said:

@Knox.8962 said:You guys who think scepter + pistol phantasms is better than axe + pistol phantasms must have tested a drastically different game than I tested during the preview weekend. Axe/pistol condi mirage should be in the ballpark of 32k DPS with current numbers. If they buff anything, it should go higher than that.

The only way you're going to reach numbers that high is by using Axe2 which also lowers your sustained dps. In a fight of over 10s, Axe is going to perform roughly equally to Scepter, but with the added disadvantage of having to constantly summon Phantasms.

We'll just have to agree to disagree.

I guess we'll just have to take your word that Condi Mirage is going to hit 32k dps. Yup yup. Seems legit.

[Zenith.7301]

@Windwalker.7421 said:Oh yee of little faith! ;-)

We have a "for profit" company releasing an Xpac to an aging game; a game that is otherwise completely free to play. (After 2 years of no expansions no less.)

Are they going to put a conservative stance on game balance over profits, at all cost?

• Exhibit A: HoT

Really? Do any of you actually believe Mirage will be terrible/boring?

~15 Minutes of Dev time on just tweaking the existing Mirage, just as we saw on BWE, will be more than enough to turn it into a very strong Elite. The cool thing is, the one thing many people are lamenting, is that Mirage is almost guaranteed to leave Chrono viable/fun/playable, because it is so fundamentally different. That in no way means that Mirage will be terrible or that you won't want to have one on your PvP team. (Sorry to say, but I do feel that it is intended to be more of a PvP Elite, or maybe a solo open world PvE I guess too.) It is clearly a very Thief-like Elite, and especially as compared to Condie Chrono, I have to believe that playing one will be loads more fun.

Maybe I'll be the one eating my words in a few days, but my money's on capitalism every time. ;-) (Pun intended.)

It is pretty hard to "overhear" the very vocal lamenting over Mirage in BWE on this board, and elsewhere, and I doubt they will turn a blind eye to this input. They want to sell this Xpac, so they will make every Elite either blatantly OPd, or ridiculously fun to play, or both.

Scrapper has been garbage for the entirety of HoT in PvE, as well as reaper.

[FaboBabo.3581]

"In pve" guess its time again ;There are pve specsThere are player vs player specs.Not Everything is good in pve and this is ok.