How is vindicator balanced?

[Razor.6392]

Bro shits out damage just by existing lmao, almost no telegraphs either and then boom 4000 7000 6000 8000 1200x7 damage with all of them being crits. Surely this isn't ok right?

[Vinny.7260]

It's not really the damage that's the problem, it's the amount of evade frames it has.

It requires a base understanding of the profession to use it effectively, which is why you'll sometimes have some vindis drop like paperweights and then the next one be straight up unkillable.

It has 2 dodges + endurance regeneration via F2 + Shiro evade + evade from Hammer 3 + Evade from Blue Alliance.

It has a lot of cleansing, resistance uptime via Devastation, etc.

It makes it difficult to punish with Weakness and Blinds. Meaning you can't reduce their evade uptime much, can't prevent their hits or critical hits (thanks to Daredevil relic).

 

It's essentially doing what Mirage used to do with Chaos Staff, but Power.

[youle.5824]

Vinny saying it how it is ^^ but yeah  vindi def needs tuning down, except then there won't be any viable rev spec cause herald and rene are not even close viability level. So I hope you also considered buffing something else on rev when you started asking for vindi's demize.

[Razor.6392]

5 minutes ago, Vinny.7260 said:

It's not really the damage that's the problem, it's the amount of evade frames it has.

Well yeah, it's the full package. It does warrior levels of damage with zero of the downsides. 

What's vindi's weakness? Can't be kited, has 200 evades, has good cleanse, has like 8 military level nukes that MUST be dodged.

????

[youle.5824]

3 minutes ago, Razor.6392 said:

Well yeah, it's the full package. It does warrior levels of damage with zero of the downsides. 

What's vindi's weakness? Can't be kited, has 200 evades, has good cleanse, has like 8 military level nukes that MUST be dodged.

????

If you must know condi is its main weakness, or cc. Spellbreaker wins it, czerk hard wins it, condi axe DE wins it, creaper is kind of 50/50, hammer cata wins it.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

59 minutes ago, youle.5824 said:

 condi is its main weakness

This is right in practice, but I can't imagine why. Tree Song is right there.

Quote

cc

This isnt.  Vindi will instabreak with archemorus or riposting, whichever is up, after which the evade game begins again. 

1 hour ago, Vinny.7260 said:

It's essentially doing what Mirage used to do with Chaos Staff, but Power.

I'm mildly jealous of the effortless damage delivery, I'll be frank. The only part of your loop where skill separates bad vindicators from good ones, is knowing how to create space in the loop so you can put away your urn without getting interrupted. 

Everything else is padded out because you have almost a full second between dodges to anticipate, audit what you need to do next, and adjust your swaps as necessary. 

 

Edited July 1 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[arazoth.7290]

uwu

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

1 minute ago, arazoth.7290 said:

uwu

Again, nothing against that playstyle or anything it consists of. Just kinda wish the devs were that unhinged across the board

[youle.5824]

Cc is a weakness against a good spb, same weakness as always for shiro revs,  once they swap shiro use shorter cc so they shiro breakstun then bullcharge end of evade and thats gg for vindi

3 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

 

This isnt.  Vindi will instabreak with archemorus or riposting, whichever is up, after which the evade game begins again. 

 

[arazoth.7290]

1 hour ago, Vinny.7260 said:

It's not really the damage that's the problem, it's the amount of evade frames it has.

It requires a base understanding of the profession to use it effectively, which is why you'll sometimes have some vindis drop like paperweights and then the next one be straight up unkillable.

It has 2 dodges + endurance regeneration via F2 + Shiro evade + evade from Hammer 3 + Evade from Blue Alliance.

It has a lot of cleansing, resistance uptime via Devastation, etc.

It makes it difficult to punish with Weakness and Blinds. Meaning you can't reduce their evade uptime much, can't prevent their hits or critical hits (thanks to Daredevil relic).

 

It's essentially doing what Mirage used to do with Chaos Staff, but Power.

3 cleanses every 15 seconds average is a lot yes ;).

Taking salvation traitline is lot less damage unless you take salv dev traitlines but then you have less fury uptime and no swiftness for mobility/less mobile to escape.

Wanted to clear that 1 statement out ^^

[arazoth.7290]

4 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Again, nothing against that playstyle or anything it consists of. Just kinda wish the devs were that unhinged across the board

They nerf something, but nerf wrong, I play rev so I facepalmed with the nerf on it earlier "solving it"

Edited July 1 by arazoth.7290

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

4 minutes ago, youle.5824 said:

Cc is a weakness against a good spb, same weakness as always for shiro revs,  once they swap shiro use shorter cc so they shiro breakstun then bullcharge end of evade and thats gg for vindi

I'd hazard that it's modified for vindi in that actually getting to a state where you can cc them out of riposting is several times harder than herald or core, because of the extra breathing room the dodge affords.

Def true that ccing a rev after riposting turns them into a fine mist though.  

Good spb matchup probably is also pain. 

Edited July 1 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[arazoth.7290]

1 hour ago, youle.5824 said:

Vinny saying it how it is ^^ but yeah  vindi def needs tuning down, except then there won't be any viable rev spec cause herald and rene are not even close viability level. So I hope you also considered buffing something else on rev when you started asking for vindi's demize.

Herald/renegade are just weak compared to so many specs 😂. Even some core rev builds outperform these 2

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

1 minute ago, arazoth.7290 said:

They nerf something, but nerf wrong

Aint that a kitten mood

[arazoth.7290]

1 minute ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Aint that a kitten mood

What you gonna do about it, they don't really listen to suggestions 😂

[whooot.5784]

Every build that litteraly just spam dodges/block/invuln like an assisted monkey while doing big damage in the same time is braindead and unhealthy for the game in my opinion.

I take for exemple the old acrobatic pistol whipe dardevil thief who just litteraly spammed 3 while dodging, while doing damage, with cc paired with it... It was fun to play tbh, but completly degenerated, and I understand why people hated it, and why it got nerfed to the bone. It was a well desearved nerf (I say it as a main thief). The old daredevil thief staff was the same kind of thing.

Same for the old enge who bombed you to death just by dodging on you, mirage who could (still can) 100-0 you while perma dodging/invuln (very very fun....)

Vindicator is the epitome of all that: ultra easy to do damage and to play as well, way way way too much dodge/evade frame for the damage he can deal and the sustain he can have.

There is no counter play to this gameplay exepted dodging absolutly every single skill of him, you can't immob it cause he can instant cleanse it, or just beeing immune cause of resistance.

Can't blind him for the very same reasons, can't weakness him as well.

So yeah, it might be good and fun from pve perspectiv, but for pvp? It's clearly unhealthy and degenerated. God I miss power herald so much, that was a true build that required true skill to play. With vindicator, you're basicly in auto pilot mod. Like other people said, this is an effortless build to play. And thoses kinds of builds shouldn't be that strong, not in pvp at least.

[Flowki.7194]

4 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

This isnt.  Vindi will instabreak with archemorus or riposting, whichever is up, after which the evade game begins again.

Everything else is padded out because you have almost a full second between dodges to anticipate, audit what you need to do next, and adjust your swaps as necessary. 

 

Vindi is not a DPS race, its an energy fight, which even good players don't seem to get. CCing a vindi is never a waste, and will always result in him doing less damage x1 > leaving fight x2 > dead x3. I have never seen a single vindi survive more than 3 CC unless team mates peeled like mad. The evade game is all it has, but it has windows to exploit, which I agree, is far easier if you have access to more than 1 CC. Would you say the game lacks CC?, while keeping in mind everything on rev not using tablet has the worse stab access in game.

 

If people want less vindi evades, then vindi needs more stab, its really that simple.

Edited July 1 by Flowki.7194

[Flowki.7194]

3 hours ago, whooot.5784 said:

Vindicator is the epitome of all that: ultra easy to do damage and to play as well, way way way too much dodge/evade frame for the damage he can deal and the sustain he can have.

lol, you are either a p2+ player who can master any spec quickly, or are completely delusional.

 

Was it this thread or another? I can't recall.. but people were saying vindi has no broadcast. What actually happened to this playerbase? Track back in the forums and everybody collectively agreed one of the main reasons vindi sucked was becuase of its notorious broadcasting.. hammer is no different aside from hammer2 at point blank.

Edited July 1 by Flowki.7194

[Shagie.7612]

47 minutes ago, Flowki.7194 said:

If people want less vindi evades, then vindi needs more stab, its really that simple.

Vindi doesn't deserve anything lol

Have you ever considered this is the same situation you ran into with Cata, and the issue is actually you?

[Flowki.7194]

8 minutes ago, Shagie.7612 said:

Vindi doesn't deserve anything lol

Have you ever considered this is the same situation you ran into with Cata, and the issue is actually you?

I have you all figured out, ren sucks, and you can't stand that vindi is good. You are the weaver of ele, who also hated cata. Jelousy.

[Shagie.7612]

1 minute ago, Flowki.7194 said:

I have you all figured out, ren sucks, and you can't stand that vindi is good. You are the weaver of ele, who also hated cata. Jelousy.

No, I'm just not someone who thinks they have a clue about game balance or how to play despite having a sub-50% win rate every season.

Yeah it does suck, but Vindi is inherently better than the other two elites and will always be that way because of design, not tuning. They can't make skills do nothing, so Vindicator is always going to have the advantage. Plus Anet has no idea how to handle modified dodges and should probably stop doing them because every elite spec that's had them has been a nightmare.

[Flowki.7194]

22 minutes ago, Shagie.7612 said:

No, I'm just not someone who thinks they have a clue about game balance or how to play despite having a sub-50% win rate every season.

Yeah it does suck, but Vindi is inherently better than the other two elites and will always be that way because of design, not tuning. They can't make skills do nothing, so Vindicator is always going to have the advantage. Plus Anet has no idea how to handle modified dodges and should probably stop doing them because every elite spec that's had them has been a nightmare.

Just come out and say it rather than trying to bait me in with your bs. My spec is team based, with no roam carry potential, so I sit in g3 mostly, do show me the core revs on this build finishing plat every season? You talk about balance as if getting to plat on ren (which is more suited to do that than my build) makes you an expert on rev, it does not.. and it certainly does not negate any points I make on vindi.

 

The last part of you post is again just jelousy. So ren/herald mechanics suck by your account, and you are not happy becuase vindis mechanics also don't suck. What a bitter individual.

Edited July 1 by Flowki.7194

[Shagie.7612]

11 minutes ago, Flowki.7194 said:

Just come out and say it rather than trying to bait me in with your bs.

What, that I think you're both unskilled and uninformed, and it leads to your bias and why you think things like Hammer Cata and Vindi shouldn't be/have been nerfed?
I thought that much was obvious.
Clearly they were/are just really hard to play and it was your skill that meant you won, right?

11 minutes ago, Flowki.7194 said:

The last part of you post is again just jelousy. So ren/herald mechanics suck by your account, and you are not happy becuase vindis mechanics also don't suck.

It's not jealousy to want a clearly powercrept spec to not be overloaded by design. Especially not when it means the things it shares in common with what I play get caught by strays.

[Flowki.7194]

53 minutes ago, Shagie.7612 said:

What, that I think you're both unskilled and uninformed, and it leads to your bias and why you think things like Hammer Cata and Vindi shouldn't be/have been nerfed?
I thought that much was obvious.
Clearly they were/are just really hard to play and it was your skill that meant you won, right?

It's not jealousy to want a clearly powercrept spec to not be overloaded by design. Especially not when it means the things it shares in common with what I play get caught by strays.

Hammer cata got nerfed into the ground after condi cata, why is that good? Hybrid scepter tempest got nerfed into the ground after condi cata, why is that good? What specific problems did you have with hammer cata and hybrid scepter tempest that makes you think they deserve to be nerfed out of existence, the very thing they did to your beloved ren spec, which I also think is bad, ren was the first rev spec I played. Vindi is strong, it has issues, but it is by no means a free carry.. and 1 heavy handed nerf will make it just another hammer cata/herald, not worth the difficulty/punishment to play for 99% of us. You'd be happy at-least?

 

On hammer cata, I never won a 1v2 after months of playing, on bladesowrn, after 2 days of playing, I won a 1v2. Stop pretending hammer cata is a carry? I played hammer cata and ren for long enough to know youre talking absolute rubish, play it for a month, you'll soon see its dificulty/effectiveness ratio is worse than ren. Also ren is similar in difficulty to core rev, both of those rev specs are mechanically easier than hammer cata for dps/personal sustain. The only thing making those rev specs harder is taking on a more support/team fight spec, as there is then more to consider in healing/CC peeling for team mates. Vindi of all the rev specs is closer in mechanical difficulty to hammer cata, herald is slightly less mechanically difficult but far more punishing, being why I can never play it, its too punishing for the difficulty, compared to things like WB.

 

So do you know many core revs in plat? In-fact do you even know any core revs in g3?

Edited July 1 by Flowki.7194

[Shagie.7612]

45 minutes ago, Flowki.7194 said:

Hammer cata got nerfed into the ground after condi cata, why is that good? Hybrid scepter tempest got nerfed into the ground after condi cata, why is that good?

lol they'd already done significant amounts of nerfs to Cata before the signet and written in stone buffs. Heck they'd even already done some before the scepter buffs.

45 minutes ago, Flowki.7194 said:

play it for a month, you'll soon see its dificulty/effectiveness ratio is worse than ren.

Not even close, lol, Cata is both better and easier to get significant results out of than Renegade. There is, at best, a more difficult initial learning curve in trying to figure out what your skills do because you have more options, but some dude mashing buttons on Cata is still going to do better than some dude mashing buttons on Renegade.

But it is actually ineffective now compared to a meta sidenoder like Spb, you're right about that. I wouldn't ever deny that. But it's because they nerfed it for like a year straight because it was an absolute terror, and pre-nerf Hammer Cata was ABSOLUTELY just as faceroll as anything else. You're utterly delusional if you don't think it was.

You're making this massive mistake that you and plenty of other people constantly make in thinking that something is harder because it has more abilities, and that's not always true.
Having more answers, having the options to respond to more situations because you have more things, like blocks, projectile hate, or whatever else, is EASIER than being forced to handle them in some other way. Having the ability to recover from mistakes because you have actual sustain, or the ability to escape because you have actual disengage (that's not necessarily ele, just an example), is EASIER than having to have incredible positioning lest you instantly get w keyed and die.

Nobody in their right mind would say that someone like Gief, who has a fairly simple game plan, is easier than Luke or Ken (are these guys still strong? idk i don't keep up with street fighter i only play anime fighters cus air dashes are cool) because he has less options.

It's the same thing here. Number of abilities is not some inherent indicator of skill, nor is poor number tuning.
Vindicator has far more answers to any situation than either Herald or Renegade. It takes very, very little skill, if there's even a point where it matters at all, to meet the level at which those two can never hope to compete just based on spec design alone.

44 minutes ago, Flowki.7194 said:

So do you know many core revs in plat? In-fact do you even know any core revs in g3?

There are in fact a couple on NA. I forget their names, don't see them often. They play some goofy Mallyx/Ventari build. It does nothing but afk on mid and hope the enemy team is dumb enough to target them.
It's entirely ignorable and has no other game plan other than that.

Edited July 1 by Shagie.7612