Failure on Retrospective to talk about the, well, seeming failures of Fractals.

[Blackbird.9074]

Over the past 2 releases of Fractals you have failed spectacularly (my own perspective and my understanding of general community feedback). My disappointment isn't entirely with fractals, I think (and I could be misquoting or putting words in his mouth) Preach said something along the lines of "Guild Wars 2 has the highest of highs and the lowest of lows.". Aurene's "Death", the failure of utitilizing one of the best villians (imo) in the franchise, Joko, no future game plan on what Guild Wars 2 is or will be in X Years ("No Trinity" at launch, no raids, lws1 failure, lws2 change, now expacs, now raids and "soft trinity", lws3/4 iteration, expac (seemingly like you've got a plan), complete failure of IBS and moving from raiding to strikes (only to go back to raids again even though, and I can't remember the statistic, but like 5% of players actually engaged in raids so....(?) changing back to expacs with EoD, changing again to yearly expacs).

Hopefully I'm able to communicate my premise which is: 1.) What is your vision for this game (it's been 12 years Anet), 2.) Who is your audience that you're catering to (imho you can't support wvw, pvp and pve, you're not Blizzard or a big company, choose a specialty and stick with it instead of taking years to implement a wvw update only to need to do a lot more work to support it and now you want to add a new pvp gamemode (and ideally you'd support it) and now Raids, Legendary Raids (or is it strikes, I don't do either nor care), CM Raids, Convergences, Spears (more balance which means more headaches; A problem with Gw1 and a reason stated as to why they moved on to GW2, and was stated by a GW2 dev that they had admittedly failed in that objective)) and 3.) What the bleep is your definition of fractals? To add on to point 3: From my perspective you have a complete disconnect from how players interact with, play, and enjoy fractals, so I want to know what you're thinking when developing Silent Surf and Lonely Tower because you've a track record for moving on pretty much immediately after a release so I expect no updates and these fractals to be a blight on the game mode so I just want to know. Fractals, like all game modes that you've left to fester for x000days or whatever, has been left for the players to interact with and find ways to enjoy in their own way. Whether that is CM's (I'm talking Old CM's personally.... which may be an indicator of a problem I'm not sure but I kind of think so), meta comps for pugs to easily and quickly(ish) complete their dailies, finding cool skips or shortcuts, or solo or however they enjoy interacting with the gamemode. You seem to have no clue how players have evolved and enjoy fractals now which, from my perspective, is shown through your recent releases.

I'd just like to semi-end this on 2 points which are basically one point. You sort of lied or misled or failed (again imo) your community with your posts (my perception). To quote from some post around the Silent Surf release 

Quote

New Fractals of the Mists content is just around the corner, but you're going to need to wait a little bit longer to hear the juicy details. However, we did want to share a quick note on how we're approaching its design. When started development on the new fractal, we took some time to review the feedback from our last fractal release, Sunqua Peak. One of the main themes in the feedback was that players prefer less waiting around and more action, especially when you're replaying the instance often. One of our goals for this upcoming release is to deliver a fractal with a tighter gameplay experience, while still providing story content as fractals do.

Not all of this is bad but I'll point out the "Less waiting around and more action".... Don't think I need to expound on that further. It's literally an hp sponge waiting for mechanics to repeat ad nauseum.  Oh and also one shot mechanics are really fun so waiting around while dead, or worse, watching the same player die over and over or fail a mechanic leading to instant death is fun gameplay for the team and you (insert sarcasm here). The fight is quite literally the antithesis to "Less waiting and more action". But of course we've moved on from this fractal and it isn't going anywhere.

And the Second Point I'd like to point out (and am finally getting to the main point) is that.... You didn't address Fractals at all during your "Retrospective of Soto". That's what was really disappointing to me. You stated that you wanted to talk about everything you learned from SoTo (i.e. the whole point of doing a Retrospective) but you didn't address one important aspect of what was advertised for the Expansion (Fractal and Fractal CM). It's a Fractal release..... And how you feel about how it played out, what you'd like to do better or are happy with it, your perspective and how you'd like to move on with fractals in the future is extremely important to understand so that we, the community, can understand and set our expectations straight. If you'd have said "With the addition of Strikes and our intention of bringing Raiding back as well as our focus on the new PvP mode and continuing to support and update WvW we've felt that we cannot give Fractals the love and care that it deserves". People would be angry, yes, but at least they would (hopefully) understand that A.) No need to question what is coming next (a constant plague for gw2 (is there going to be a next expac?, When is the next raid, x days since last raid or whatever)) and B.) It sets expectations so players are hopefully less emotional and understanding of what GW2 actually is capable of providing and what to expect. 

I guess what I really want is for you to (extreme opinion so whatever) get rid of Silent Surf and Lonely Tower completely. Take it out of the game. Following that my most extreme opinion is that I would like for you to NOT SELL THIS NEW FRACTAL. Stop developing it. I don't know or trust whatever it is you've got baked, but I'm not interested in looking at what fractal dailies are today and going "Oh it's Lonely Tower, guess I'll do something else". Because, once again, you release and move on. If it's bad then, after a few weeks, that's the state it's going to be in forever. And then I suppose I would like to hear that you're narrowing your focus on things that you can truly release in a "complete" state and actually follow up and support whatever releases or gamemodes you choose to focus on. If Fractals isn't interesting to you then that's fine. I want a good game and my perspective is you don't have the resources to give everything you've "thrown at the wall" the love that they deserve. WvW and PvP deserve a lot of love and it basically took 12 years to begin working on WvW and what was it? Like 4 years to actually implement an actual patch for it (Once you'd actually decided to throw dev effort into the project). During HoT you released the PvP map "Stronghold" which (as far as my shoddy recollection goes) was immediately abandoned. Your track record shows that you just move on after a release and if you do follow up on it, it seems to be in the "give it a couple years category".

When was the last Guild update? Isn't being part of an MMO being a part of a community and isn't a core system needed for community an in-game system that promotes a feeling of connection and groups and activities that you're incentivized to participate/help in? Rivalries, Drama, Community. These are the things that get people invested in the game and community and there has been zero focus on it which I find interesting (I don't count Guild decorations and would be interested in hearing what player interaction with that system looks like because I've yet to speak with anyone who really plays with it). I don't really count WvW towards that goal as my perception is Guilds were merely a tool to help make it easier to implement their patches (could be wrong as when I do WvW it isn't with a guild or group).

Please don't advertise features for marketing or whatever, I just want a good game and honesty. This isn't a AAA studio, stick with what you can do because, quite frankly you've released some amazing things over the years and I know you guys have the talent for it.

Apologies for the long post, I tend to rant.

[Randulf.7614]

The issue with taking out Lonely Tower is that it's disrespectful to those of us who enjoy Lonely Tower. My only gripe is that is the two twin demon bosses are treated with such disdain. I'd rather do both of these than do Sunquaa or Observatory or Twilight Oasis ever again. I would never advocate for thier deletion

I do think there is a point to be had about them not acknowledging feedback on the two fractals or their often stubborn resistance to improvements to a lot of content - instances and metas especially - once launched. And it's one I think that has hurt the game at various points.

What I'd prefer is;

- Better engagement with the community over instances. I know there's a wall now between devs and players for various reasons on both sides, but there needs to be some thawing. The game can only thrive when the two work in sync. If they want a raid to work for more people and don't talk to anyone, how will that succeed in its mission? And I don't mean talking to specific guilds nehind the scenes where they speak on others' behalf. I mean open dialogue.

- Be more open to updating content where it's not working. Deletion should NEVER be the option on the table nor should it be mooted as one. One person's hate is another's enjoyment. But, if there are consistent problems to a particular piece of content, then make changes to it. I understand time and resources would be involved, but surely that's better than a piece of content languishing. There's too much of "well we'll learn next time" rather than "yeah OK, maybe we can go back and make it better". That's the beauty of a live game, it's never once and done

- Talk more about the instance mission goal. This is touched on in the OP and point 1 about engagement

Ultimately, I was a bit disappointed they didn't address instances more in their retrospective as well. But I also disagree about deleting content. That has never been the answer

[Shadows Creed.3902]

i agree on better engagement with the community over instances. Lot of times its silence which feels like it drives up player annoyance with a situation.  

The past few fractals for me personally seem a bit of a cluster and come across as "well the last one had x so therefore we need to do more to out do it"; a bit of the Fast & Furious movie series where it went from street racing to launching a tank on a highway and w.e. else goes on there.   

Just my POV but I enjoyed the earlier ones more because it was different aspects of Tyria past/future that they didn't need to do full Living stories for.  I get maybe the original ones were a tad simple but think there is a big gap between them and the past few that seem to be a bit all over the place with mechanics and randomness. 

Thaumanova Reactor is an example of an addition fractal post the original ones that was a cool add without it being over the top out of control.  Nightmare Tower, with CM, didn't feel like it was an avoid situation. 

Edited August 19 by Shadows Creed.3902

[ZephyrusSpring.5728]

On 8/15/2024 at 4:16 AM, Randulf.7614 said:

But I also disagree about deleting content. That has never been the answer.

Proposing for content to be disabled is merely a form of bargaining to have something done about it.  In my opinion these fractals (you know the ones) detract from the fractal experience as a whole, and so the bargain is "if you aren't going to fix them then please get rid of them".  Of course we'd all prefer if they were fixed and improved to be an overall positive addition to the fractal pool.  No one would deny that improving these fractals is what players really want.  But we understand Anet's history with this kind of thing and would rather see these fractals gone than left as they are.

For me personally, the bugs are the main concern and the overly "gamey" nature is my second concern.  When I can't tell if a mechanic has a niche quirk or is just bugged it's a really bad look.  Grabbing tethers from other players in SS is a perfect example of this.  Are we encouraged to do it or is it a bug / purely negative mechanic that we should avoid?  When bugs like that appear in other games they disable the content until its fixed.  The "gamey" nature of the recent fractals is something more subjective.  When things happen too frequently on obvious timers or there's too many MacGuffins (coloured essences) it really pulls me out of the experience.  Like @Shadows Creed.3902, I get the impression that the devs feel like they need to do more with each fractal, and that has manifested as being overly mechanical and gamey.  Think about the parts of each cm fractal that you like compared to the parts you don't like and you'll realise you probably feel the same way.  I want bosses that simply try to hit me in the face in interesting ways, and for my defensive tools to work against them.  Stopping bosses from powering up or knocking them out of mapwide attacks has never been very interesting to me.

The gamey nature is not grounds to have the content removed because it is a very subjective thing which people are willing to put up with.  But in combination with these horrific bugs that we aren't even sure aren't intended mechanics, it displays that these fractals are in dire need of attention from the developers.  And if they aren't going to give these fractals the attention they need it would be an overall positive improvement for the fractal experience if they were disabled.

[Edibleghost.5631]

Agree, I went from daily t4's before Silent Surf and Lonely Tower to literally 0 fractals unless I need it for the weekly.

[AliamRationem.5172]

I don't hate Silent Surf, but it's not very interesting.  The boss mechanics are repetitive and like most of their mechanics, overly punishing to melee play styles.  But I like it well enough that it's always on my CM rotation.  I can't say the same for lonely tower.  I haven't found my appreciation for that one yet.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

Silent Surf is truly a l2p issue. It's actually an extremely easy fractal, and when it comes to CMs, it is the easiest CM fractal once players learn the mechanics.

Lonely Tower however, is just a mess for a plethora of reasons people have already written about in other threads, and it needs a serious overhaul/fix.

[zeyeti.8347]

On 9/2/2024 at 3:39 AM, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Silent Surf is truly a l2p issue. It's actually an extremely easy fractal, and when it comes to CMs, it is the easiest CM fractal once players learn the mechanics.

Lonely Tower however, is just a mess for a plethora of reasons people have already written about in other threads, and it needs a serious overhaul/fix.

Same can be said for lonely tower cm , i had issues but now that i have a well trained group and know how to deal with mechanics it has become easier and easier , but this one need a bit more preparation than all the others one who need ppl to undersatnd only personal mechanics as in lolnely tower you have to agree on which one take which color of orbs (except healer always taking blue ones) and who is gonna split for rift phase at 65 and 35 or slow the empowered mobs.

And fractals are designed to be a good to go mini dungeon run without many preparation and no assign specific roles to a specific person, maybe that's the part that annoys the most players about lonely tower.

But once you figure out how to manage eparch mechanics it become very simple , but still unforgivable when eparch is under 35% hp and have some orb stacks. Also the randomizer on who he is gonna suck orb stacks from and which demon champion is gonna spawn from rifts is kinda annoying to be fair.

And silent surf would be ok if you don't spend 33% of your time running away from kannaxai avoiding axe aoe , boon steal aoe and especially the teleportation dealing 50% of your max hp taking ages to be done .... this one is even more boring when under 33% and you have to face the background just like kannaxai scoled you like a toddler and you have to face a wall till you are not scoled anymore.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

2 hours ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

Same can be said for lonely tower cm , i had issues but now that i have a well trained group and know how to deal with mechanics it has become easier and easier , but this one need a bit more preparation than all the others one who need ppl to undersatnd only personal mechanics as in lolnely tower you have to agree on which one take which color of orbs (except healer always taking blue ones) and who is gonna split for rift phase at 65 and 35 or slow the empowered mobs.

Yup. LT isn't a big deal in terms of difficulty if you have a great group. Problem is, this is just impractical to maintain on a regular basis, in terms of training enough willing people as well as those you do train, being able to stay on the same schedule for fractal clears. All of this just results in it being a fractal that people like to clear once for KE and then avoid it. I don't blame them honestly. Every time I try to run 100 with PUG groups, there still seems to be like a 75% of failure and having to reset, which just feels like a sincere waste of time for what it's worth.

This problem ties directly into the first problem, that PUGs just don't perform "Well enough" to trust them with running 100CM without it becoming a serious time sink. Like if you post "99-96 CMs - NA" it's like a 90% chance you'll get a run with no wipes/resets. But PUGing for even just "100 CM" turns into this wait time in the LFG first of all, where I'm fishing for KEs who actually want to do this. Usually takes 15-20 minutes in NA for the time zones I play in. And then even when getting those KE players in there, even good ones, there is always still like a 50% chance someone is gonna screw up an orb mechanics here and there, resulting in realizing you have GG or get force wiped pas 33% and reset. Even during an average daily run full of actual good KE players, when it's not a static organized group, Eparch mechanics are just messy enough to where groups playing together for the first time always still possess this like 50% fail rate vs. Eparch. So it turns a 100 CM daily complete into about 15 minutes waiting in the LFG + about 15 minutes to complete the fractal, which is a 30 minute completion time to get this single fractal daily. And honestly usually, with PUG groups, they'll wipe or have GG a couple times before completing Eparch and it'll turn into a 40 minute to 50 minute clear time for one fractal. <- That is enough time to complete all of the other CMs & T4s combined. And THAT is why people skip 100. It's not that the KEs can't do it. It's just seriously not worth the hassle.

I state again, they need to either up the reward substantially for 100CM completion, or just nerf the kitten orb mechanics so they aren't such a rubix cube for PUG groups.

 

[Nimris.3781]

8 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

I state again, they need to either up the reward substantially for 100CM completion, or just nerf the kitten orb mechanics so they aren't such a rubix cube for PUG groups.

Imo it has very simple solution:  nerf gluttony.

currently wb gluttony carries 100cm hard (given others are not headless chickens). burst is insane, dps is insane ( peaks 80k+?) but not every run can have experienced wb player

so after they stealth buffed envy they should cut gluttony dmg by 50% and make it scale linearly with stacks, not exponencialy ( currently you get more procs and procs do more dmg the more stacks you have)

with gluttony being in line with other essences they could nerf champion hp by 20% or so.  eparch hp is fine, maybe spites could also get little hp nerf

very easy way to make less organized groups be more successfull and super organized groups dont faceroll over it.

but Anet already gave up on that fractal...

[MercurialKuroSludge.8974]

4 hours ago, Nimris.3781 said:

Imo it has very simple solution:  nerf gluttony.

currently wb gluttony carries 100cm hard (given others are not headless chickens). burst is insane, dps is insane ( peaks 80k+?) but not every run can have experienced wb player

so after they stealth buffed envy they should cut gluttony dmg by 50% and make it scale linearly with stacks, not exponencialy ( currently you get more procs and procs do more dmg the more stacks you have)

with gluttony being in line with other essences they could nerf champion hp by 20% or so.  eparch hp is fine, maybe spites could also get little hp nerf

very easy way to make less organized groups be more successfull and super organized groups dont faceroll over it.

but Anet already gave up on that fractal...

The overreliance on "Glutt not 12, stop dps".
Is indeed a really dumb thing to have.
Currently LT CM is only hard to get consistent becuz of the Adds, not the main fight, thats not healthy gameplay design at all.
Spites/Champs definitely need nerfs along with Glutt, maaaaaybe even Rage.

Edited yesterday at 03:43 AM by MercurialKuroSludge.8974