Renegade is slow

[Lavyros.6258]

@Lavyros.6258 said:Not for speed, for all together another build, it's just better for solo play. Plus it's power, condi has build up and open world mobs have small hp pools.

Rev is literally best condi dps in game atm, from both power and condi perspective only thing better is ele. If you don't count in encounters with breakbars, where holo, dh and ele is always better. From support perspective no class is better then what curently is in meta (chrono, druid, bs), but rev is fine in non meta comps for dungeons as boon support. And from perspective all in 1, no other class does better it then rev, you literally have everything. No other class bring so much utility to the table, without sacrificing ability to do highest dps it can. Yes you lose some dps for some time, but u are not losing it for the full duration of the fight.

Malyx in pvp? What for? How about using all those blocks and dodges you have? Also to the point, why even play condi rev in pvp? You can't burst after last balance patch, not that condi rev was good for past year. Power is better choise. Why even take rev in pvp altogether. 5 slots 9 classes, some will be left out, no metter what. It's not the best in it's role.

[ArmageddonAsh.6430]

@Lavyros.6258 said:Rev is literally best condi dps in game atm, from both power and condi perspective only thing better is ele. If you don't count in encounters with breakbars, where holo, dh and ele is always better. From support perspective no class is better then what curently is in meta (chrono, druid, bs), but rev is fine in non meta comps for dungeons as boon support. And from perspective all in 1, no other class does better it then rev, you literally have everything. No other class bring so much utility to the table, without sacrificing ability to do highest dps it can. Yes you lose some dps for some time, but u are not losing it for the full duration of the fight.

Malyx in pvp? What for? How about using all those blocks and dodges you have? Also to the point, why even play condi rev in pvp? You can't burst after last balance patch, not that condi rev was good for past year. Power is better choise. Why even take rev in pvp altogether. 5 slots 9 classes, some will be left out, no metter what. It's not the best in it's role.

Maybe its strong in PvE, i wouldnt know about PvP but in WvW it is very different. Power of course a better option, even then its still lacking. The Renegade just flat out sucks and may just be the WORST spec of this expansion and the last. The problem with Revenant. Everything they can do. Other classes can do MUCH better while offering more to their team. In WvW it pretty much has one role: Stay at back of Zerg, spam Hammer! That. Is. It.

[otto.5684]

This thread is funny. People arguing over wither having 100% uptime on swiftness makes you mobile or not.

@Lavyros.6258 said:

@Lavyros.6258 said:Not for speed, for all together another build, it's just better for solo play. Plus it's power, condi has build up and open world mobs have small hp pools.

Rev is literally best condi dps in game atm, from both power and condi perspective only thing better is ele. If you don't count in encounters with breakbars, where holo, dh and ele is always better. From support perspective no class is better then what curently is in meta (chrono, druid, bs), but rev is fine in non meta comps for dungeons as boon support. And from perspective all in 1, no other class does better it then rev, you literally have everything. No other class bring so much utility to the table, without sacrificing ability to do highest dps it can. Yes you lose some dps for some time, but u are not losing it for the full duration of the fight.

Malyx in pvp? What for? How about using all those blocks and dodges you have? Also to the point, why even play condi rev in pvp? You can't burst after last balance patch, not that condi rev was good for past year. Power is better choise. Why even take rev in pvp altogether. 5 slots 9 classes, some will be left out, no metter what. It's not the best in it's role.

Dude what the hell are you talking about? For PvE power dps, nothing is viable but Ele, DH, Holo and Thief in any non-open PvE context or dungens. And the only viable dps, Renegade, cannot use any utility in the rotation, cuz they cost energy; you have to sacrifice damage to use F-skills.

And I have to say: "How about using all those blocks and dodges you have?" is probably one of the most hilarious comments I have seen regarding sPvP. You do understand all classes have blocks, evades and dodges, right? Did you ever play sPvP before? I would like to see you dodge 2 scourges on point while also being attacked by Holo or SB.

This is just baloney.

[Lavyros.6258]

@otto.5684 said:This thread is funny. People arguing over wither having 100% uptime on swiftness makes you mobile or not.

@Lavyros.6258 said:

@Lavyros.6258 said:Not for speed, for all together another build, it's just better for solo play. Plus it's power, condi has build up and open world mobs have small hp pools.

Rev is literally best condi dps in game atm, from both power and condi perspective only thing better is ele. If you don't count in encounters with breakbars, where holo, dh and ele is always better. From support perspective no class is better then what curently is in meta (chrono, druid, bs), but rev is fine in non meta comps for dungeons as boon support. And from perspective all in 1, no other class does better it then rev, you literally have everything. No other class bring so much utility to the table, without sacrificing ability to do highest dps it can. Yes you lose some dps for some time, but u are not losing it for the full duration of the fight.

Malyx in pvp? What for? How about using all those blocks and dodges you have? Also to the point, why even play condi rev in pvp? You can't burst after last balance patch, not that condi rev was good for past year. Power is better choise. Why even take rev in pvp altogether. 5 slots 9 classes, some will be left out, no metter what. It's not the best in it's role.

Dude what the hell are you talking about? For PvE power dps, nothing is viable but Ele, DH, Holo and Thief in any non-open PvE context or dungens. And the only viable dps, Renegade, cannot use any utility in the rotation, cuz they cost energy; you have to sacrifice damage to use F-skills.

And I have to say: "How about using all those blocks and dodges you have?" is probably one of the most hilarious comments I have seen regarding sPvP. You do understand all classes have blocks, evades and dodges, right? Did you ever play sPvP before? I would like to see you dodge 2 scourges on point while also being attacked by Holo or SB.

This is just baloney.

Can you read? I said nothing about playing power rev in pve. I said that rev is 2nd best dps on encounters that don't preriotise power dps, and that it's the best condi dps in pve atm. There is a difirence between spending energy and locking skill slot on other classes. Yeah, it does cost energy, yes, you lose dps. When othere classes have to change to some encounters and compromise build abit, rev just loses some energy for some time. Second, revenant has 2 blocks, extra endurance regen and dodge+endurance on shiro. Plus evade on staff and sword. Tanking all damage with your face is stupid.

@ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:

@Lavyros.6258 said:Rev is literally best condi dps in game atm, from both power and condi perspective only thing better is ele. If you don't count in encounters with breakbars, where holo, dh and ele is always better. From support perspective no class is better then what curently is in meta (chrono, druid, bs), but rev is fine in non meta comps for dungeons as boon support. And from perspective all in 1, no other class does better it then rev, you literally have everything. No other class bring so much utility to the table, without sacrificing ability to do highest dps it can. Yes you lose some dps for some time, but u are not losing it for the full duration of the fight.

Malyx in pvp? What for? How about using all those blocks and dodges you have? Also to the point, why even play condi rev in pvp? You can't burst after last balance patch, not that condi rev was good for past year. Power is better choise. Why even take rev in pvp altogether. 5 slots 9 classes, some will be left out, no metter what. It's not the best in it's role.

Maybe its strong in PvE, i wouldnt know about PvP but in WvW it is very different. Power of course a better option, even then its still lacking. The Renegade just flat out sucks and may just be the WORST spec of this expansion and the last. The problem with Revenant. Everything they can do. Other classes can do MUCH better while offering more to their team. In WvW it pretty much has one role: Stay at back of Zerg, spam Hammer! That. Is. It.

It's not pvp spec, it's suck in pvp. You can't expect every spec to be good in all mods.

[ArmageddonAsh.6430]

@Lavyros.6258 said:It's not pvp spec, it's suck in pvp. You can't expect every spec to be good in all mods.

Wasn't it Anet themselves that said ANY class could perform ANY role? So is it REALLY that wrong to assume that ALL specs SHOULD be able to be competitive in every mode? Of course no class SHOULD be top of every game mode but EVERY class and Elite spec SHOULD be able to be competitive. That however is NOT the case.

[Carighan.6758]

@"ArmageddonAsh.6430" said:Wasn't it Anet themselves that said ANY class could perform ANY role? So is it REALLY that wrong to assume that ALL specs SHOULD be able to be competitive in every mode? Of course no class SHOULD be top of every game mode but EVERY class and Elite spec SHOULD be able to be competitive. That however is NOT the case.

ANet themselves that said ANY class could perform ANY role

ANY class could

class

And then right after that sentence you make the misguided assumption that if 9 classes can be balanced, always assuming they pick the correct spec and loadout for each mode, then for some reason it should be just as possible to balance 27 class-defining specs. Nevermind if we look at the thousands of possible combinations, or billions once gear / runes / etc are taken into account.

Balancing 27 "classes" is entirely utopian for a MMORPG, more so if you don't decide on just a single game mode by which to judge your balance. But even if you did that it'd be more or less impossible. Sorry. If WoW can't do it, with their sheer endless amount of resources and with being willing to throw out entire spec-systems whole, then you can assume ANet won't have the resources to make it possible. Even more so because they are very unwilling to re-do elements once they're done and filed.

Balancing 9 classes is already a stretch at the pace ANet is doing balance patches. Very much a stretch. We're nearly there, but not quite, and the combat system has huge underlying issues affecting all classes which - when and if ever resolved - would again upset all this class balance. And that's just for 9!

[ArmageddonAsh.6430]

@"Carighan.6758" said:And then right after that sentence you make the misguided assumption that if 9 classes can be balanced, always assuming they pick the correct spec and loadout for each mode, then for some reason it should be just as possible to balance 27 class-defining specs. Nevermind if we look at the thousands of possible combinations, or billions once gear / runes / etc are taken into account.

Balancing 27 "classes" is entirely utopian for a MMORPG, more so if you don't decide on just a single game mode by which to judge your balance. But even if you did that it'd be more or less impossible. Sorry. If WoW can't do it, with their sheer endless amount of resources and with being willing to throw out entire spec-systems whole, then you can assume ANet won't have the resources to make it possible. Even more so because they are very unwilling to re-do elements once they're done and filed.

Balancing 9 classes is already a stretch at the pace ANet is doing balance patches. Very much a stretch. We're nearly there, but not quite, and the combat system has huge underlying issues affecting all classes which - when and if ever resolved - would again upset all this class balance. And that's just for 9!

You have played Rift? Back in the day (when it wasnt a P2W mess) it was awesome, It was 4 base classes. From picking the base class you would get the option to pick 3 out of 10 talent trees and you could spend talent points in what ever way you wanted in that tree the more you spend in one tree the stronger you are at that and you unlock additional traits and skills separate from the ones that you gain from unlocking. Each base class type (Warrior, Cleric, Mage, Assassin) could make builds that would be able to Tank, Dps (Ranged and Melee) and Heal among so much more. Not played it in a long time but back in the day it was VERY well balanced.

Too be fair, seeing as how the BASE classes arent even balanced its kinda expected that they wouldnt be able to balance the others but i am just pointing out it was Anet that said - play how you like, play what you like. That went out of the window (with a lot of things too be fair) rather early after release.

[Carighan.6758]

@"ArmageddonAsh.6430" said:Too be fair, seeing as how the BASE classes arent even balanced its kinda expected that they wouldnt be able to balance the others but i am just pointing out it was Anet that said - play how you like, play what you like. That went out of the window (with a lot of things too be fair) rather early after release.

This gets misconstructed a lot. They said: "every class can do everything".

The meaning, at the time, was btw quite clear. Heed the context. There were other MMORPGs where classes were locked into specific hard-designed roles. If you rolled a tank, you'll be a tank. You won't suddenly get to be a healer.

Of course, Guild Wars 2 didn't have that and while some other games offered chances to easily swap between your classes' different specializations there wasn't quite something like GW2. It wasn't half as impressive as the marketing crew (back then they had some! #AAAAAHHH) wanted to sell you, but it was still cool to see such a "role-less" approach baked into the base game. It showed in a lot of elements, such as the standardized approach to support and healing, Regen being the by-far best-scaling and also only significant way of healing other players, etc.

So by virtue of most things being normalized among classes and the game virtually never asking you to bring some specific RPG-role, yes, no class had the wrong basic setup, ever. Sure you might need different gear, weapons, traits, etc, but you didn't have to delete your characters or be unable to do something. This still applies today. Balance might be terrible, but that's not a hard can/cannot do thing, that's a soft "less chance to win than to lose"-thing.

[ArmageddonAsh.6430]

@"Carighan.6758" said:This gets misconstructed a lot. They said: "every class can do everything".

The meaning, at the time, was btw quite clear. Heed the context. There were other MMORPGs where classes were locked into specific hard-designed roles. If you rolled a tank, you'll be a tank. You won't suddenly get to be a healer.

Of course, Guild Wars 2 didn't have that and while some other games offered chances to easily swap between your classes' different specializations there wasn't quite something like GW2. It wasn't half as impressive as the marketing crew (back then they had some! #AAAAAHHH) wanted to sell you, but it was still cool to see such a "role-less" approach baked into the base game. It showed in a lot of elements, such as the standardized approach to support and healing, Regen being the by-far best-scaling and also only significant way of healing other players, etc.

So by virtue of most things being normalized among classes and the game virtually never asking you to bring some specific RPG-role, yes, no class had the wrong basic setup, ever. Sure you might need different gear, weapons, traits, etc, but you didn't have to delete your characters or be unable to do something. This still applies today. Balance might be terrible, but that's not a hard can/cannot do thing, that's a soft "less chance to win than to lose"-thing.

Well, SOME of them maybe, as i pointed out with Rift which was actually released before Guild Wars 2 as just one example of an MMO that ddint follow the holy trinity in the traditional sense, it kinda went the way Anet tried but did it MUCH better. It had MUCH more depth and customization for the class you played. The systems that Rift and Guild Wars 2 offer are VERY similar. Anet went with the easy route, the easier to understand, easier to "balance" route. Rift went WAY more indepth and did a much better job. Man that talent and class system is still imo the best there has been. No idea what its like these days as its pretty much a Free2Play money store mess, such a shame as the game was great back in the day. Too be fair, not really much of Guild Wars 2 is revolutionary or anything, many games do what Guild Wars 2 does but better. Anet will have a tough task on their hands when it comes to Guild Wars 3 - Especially after how they have handled themselves here with Guild Wars 2. As the saying goes: Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

[Obtena.7952]

@ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:

@Lavyros.6258 said:It's not pvp spec, it's suck in pvp. You can't expect every spec to be good in all mods.

Wasn't it Anet themselves that said ANY class could perform ANY role? So is it REALLY that wrong to assume that ALL specs SHOULD be able to be competitive in every mode? Of course no class SHOULD be top of every game mode but EVERY class and Elite spec SHOULD be able to be competitive. That however is NOT the case.

Um, I don't think they said that ever. You're also mistaking 'role' for different game elements. Doing PVP vs. WvW vs. PVE is not a 'role'. And yes, it is wrong to assume every spec should be competitive for every mode, because that's not how specs/classes are designed. The theme dictates what the class/spec does, not it's performance in a 'role'.