Thief's Cluster Bomb... Do I need to "Get Gud"?

[arazoth.7290]

2 hours ago, Flowki.7194 said:

Ahh reaction times.. the thing that tricks the average power jump player into thinking they are better than they are, until they play a condi spec with no jump and counter cleanse. Or in SPBs case, to thinking pressing FC on a multi cast or high broadcast ability is the same as just stowing an FC. But lets not bring science into GW2 😜 

great... I just bit my lip while reading this...

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

On 8/24/2024 at 10:34 PM, Saiyan.1704 said:

But not knowing a thief was Pew Pew'ing with nearly 5k cluster bombs every .5 seconds... this is undoubtedly "normal" and I should just... "get gud", right?

Naaaah man, people can't just say "git gud" to this. It is getting to a three stooge slapstick dumb level of damage lately for mechanics & easy use of that skill.

Look at this combat log -> https://imgur.com/osZyaBo

As you can see in the log, this was a 1v1 between him and I. He wasn't getting buffs from anyone. This dude is just straight tossing 6.2k and 6.3k clusters at me.

I mean.... what the hell? Look at the damage coming from his other attacks in the logs. That is insanely disproportionate. No idea what's going on there.

 

Edited September 8 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Sinister.5792]

hi

[Endo.1652]

4 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Naaaah man, people can't just say "git gud" to this. It is getting to a three stooge slapstick dumb level of damage lately for mechanics & easy use of that skill.

Look at this combat log -> https://imgur.com/osZyaBo

As you can see in the log, this was a 1v1 between him and I. He wasn't getting buffs from anyone. This dude is just straight tossing 6.2k and 6.3k clusters at me.

I mean.... what the hell? Look at the damage coming from his other attacks in the logs. That is insanely disproportionate. No idea what's going on there.

 

What other attacks? He did no other attacks in your screen shot except a dodge roll. You tanked 3 unsplit clusters from someone probably running full glass cannon.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

8 hours ago, Endo.1652 said:

What other attacks? He did no other attacks in your screen shot except a dodge roll. You tanked 3 unsplit clusters from someone probably running full glass cannon.

Dude he crits with Wild Strike - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W) for 631 - it has coefficient 0.8

Then crits me with Bound - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W) for 1628 - it has coefficient of 0.5 in pvp

He then crits me 3x with Cluster Bomb - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W) for 6310, 6256, and 6256 - it has a coefficient of 1.45 "why is this so high?"

All the powerhouse singles strike attacks have similar level coefficients. Heartseeker - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W) is 1.0 coefficient above 50% health, 1.5 at 50%.health, and 2.0 under 25% health. Then Larcenous Strike - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W) is 1.4 coefficient and even has a universal debuff on top of it of -15% damage in pvp/wvw. The difference here is that these attack 1 target only and are melee.

But Cluster Bomb can deal all the damage of Heartseeker or Larcenous Strike in an AoE ground targeted ranged attack that hits 5 targets. That ground targeted attack comes with other benefits like being able to hit around corners or objects or through floors, being able to be used while running forward and firing backwards behind you, and being able to generally ignore projectile reflect if you place the AoE correctly.

Furthermore, something like a Ranger, to tag that kind of ranged AoE damage, has to stand still and cast Barrage for 2 1/2 seconds while standing still, creating an obvious telegraph ground target that lasts longer than the 2 1/2 seconds, that people would have to stand still inside of and not move, to capture the kind of damage output that Cluster is pumping out from a couple sudden #2 spams that happens nearly instantly and usually directly out of stealth.

CB needs to lose some damage now with 2024 levels of power creep. Sorry man. Being able to 1shot a whole team fight by spamming 3 Cluster Bombs with a single bar of initiative is getting to be over the top due to the mechanics surrounding that damage output.

Edited September 8 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Terrorhuz.4695]

40 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

That ground targeted attack comes with other benefits like being able to hit around corners or objects or through floors

and being slower than a bone minion with a handy red circle telling you where you don't want to be...

[Last Crab.6054]

13 hours ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

and being slower than a bone minion with a handy red circle telling you where you don't want to be...

this is like shaking hands with the joker

[Endo.1652]

On 9/8/2024 at 7:37 AM, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Dude he crits with Wild Strike - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W) for 631 - it has coefficient 0.8

Then crits me with Bound - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W) for 1628 - it has coefficient of 0.5 in pvp

He then crits me 3x with Cluster Bomb - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W) for 6310, 6256, and 6256 - it has a coefficient of 1.45 "why is this so high?"

All the powerhouse singles strike attacks have similar level coefficients. Heartseeker - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W) is 1.0 coefficient above 50% health, 1.5 at 50%.health, and 2.0 under 25% health. Then Larcenous Strike - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W) is 1.4 coefficient and even has a universal debuff on top of it of -15% damage in pvp/wvw. The difference here is that these attack 1 target only and are melee.

But Cluster Bomb can deal all the damage of Heartseeker or Larcenous Strike in an AoE ground targeted ranged attack that hits 5 targets. That ground targeted attack comes with other benefits like being able to hit around corners or objects or through floors, being able to be used while running forward and firing backwards behind you, and being able to generally ignore projectile reflect if you place the AoE correctly.

Furthermore, something like a Ranger, to tag that kind of ranged AoE damage, has to stand still and cast Barrage for 2 1/2 seconds while standing still, creating an obvious telegraph ground target that lasts longer than the 2 1/2 seconds, that people would have to stand still inside of and not move, to capture the kind of damage output that Cluster is pumping out from a couple sudden #2 spams that happens nearly instantly and usually directly out of stealth.

CB needs to lose some damage now with 2024 levels of power creep. Sorry man. Being able to 1shot a whole team fight by spamming 3 Cluster Bombs with a single bar of initiative is getting to be over the top due to the mechanics surrounding that damage output.

So first. Reflects do work on the unsplit version. It will just bounce back at the caster. The split version you have to split before the point it reflects off of for it to land which causes it to only do partial damage. If you want to nerf cluster. Make it cost 4 initative not 3.  I think the damage is fine, you should be more upset about axe thief than anything else.

Second. Power coefficients are one thing but also there is base damage. Also you're taking the pve versions of the power coefficients as well and mixing them up with pvp. Wild strike in pvp is 0.43. Pve its 0.8. It feels like you're trying to mislead with pve information on one skill (wild strike, doesnt even claim which part of the game mode its from) and stating pvp coefficients on another skill. (Bounding dodger). People who wont look it up will think its a pvp coefficient. Stop trying to twist the narrative.

[Terrorhuz.4695]

On 9/8/2024 at 12:37 PM, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

The difference here is that these attack 1 target only and are melee.

sb2 must be used in melee, 240\300 range at most, because it's very slow. It can be used from range only against someone doing jumping puzzles; that is reasonable, since it's the only answer thief gets to jumping puzzles abuse.

Edited September 9 by Terrorhuz.4695

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

On 9/8/2024 at 6:37 AM, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Being able to 1shot a whole team fight by spamming 3 Cluster Bombs with a single bar of initiative.

If eating three cluster bombs from a glass thief is considered a oneshot and not grounds for downstate, I don't want to play this game anymore.

Catching TWO of them is a skill issue. 3 is mockery.

 

Edited September 9 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[jdawgie.1835]

On 9/8/2024 at 3:37 AM, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

But Cluster Bomb can deal all the damage of Heartseeker or Larcenous Strike in an AoE ground targeted ranged attack that hits 5 targets.

It can also be instant. With 2 Double Tap. Which is what is used more often. The combo is Steal w/blind --> into stealth and bow 2 (x1-2) ---> Dagger storm. Dead. 

On 9/8/2024 at 3:37 AM, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Dude he crits with Wild Strike - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W) for 631 - it has coefficient 0.8

Then crits me with Bound - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W) for 1628 - it has coefficient of 0.5 in pvp

He then crits me 3x with Cluster Bomb - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W) for 6310, 6256, and 6256 - it has a coefficient of 1.45 "why is this so high?"

All the powerhouse singles strike attacks have similar level coefficients. Heartseeker - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W) is 1.0 coefficient above 50% health, 1.5 at 50%.health, and 2.0 under 25% health. Then Larcenous Strike - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W) is 1.4 coefficient and even has a universal debuff on top of it of -15% damage in pvp/wvw. The difference here is that these attack 1 target only and are melee.

You cooked here Trevor well done. 

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

1 hour ago, Endo.1652 said:

So first. Reflects do work on the unsplit version. It will just bounce back at the caster.

Not if you aim it at the ground just next to and outside of the anti-projectile radius.

IE: A Druid Staff #5 anti projectile line is in between you and the Druid. The Druid is standing ON the line, which normally will stop all projectiles from any direction. But with Cluster Bomb, if you aim the detonation point about 20-30 range in front of line instead of on it, it will explode as normal and the actual AoE ground target damage will hit the Druid. This works the same way vs. all anti-projectile fields. They only stop the actual Cluster Bomb vector, not the damage if it explodes.

1 hour ago, Endo.1652 said:

Second. Power coefficients are one thing but also there is base damage. Also you're taking the pve versions of the power coefficients as well and mixing them up with pvp. Wild strike in pvp is 0.43. Pve its 0.8. It feels like you're trying to mislead with pve information on one skill (wild strike, doesnt even claim which part of the game mode its from) and stating pvp coefficients on another skill. (Bounding dodger). People who wont look it up will think its a pvp coefficient. Stop trying to twist the narrative.

You're right, Wild Strike is .8 in pve and .43 in pvp. I didn't realize it had a pvp split.

All of the other information is correct so get off it.

1 hour ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

sb2 must be used in melee, 240\300 range at most, because it's very slow. It can be used from range only against someone doing jumping puzzles; that is reasonable, since it's the only answer thief gets to jumping puzzles abuse.

This statement is somehow three things in one:

1. An extreme over exaggeration
2. Misinformation
3. Disinformation

They commonly use Cluster Bomb from stealth which you cannot see when the first shot is lobbed, and then due to its travel speed, they are able to swap and steal/backstab at you same time when the Cluster hits. The slow travel speed on Cluster is actually advantageous for them when landing backstab combos, not a disadvantage.

Cluster Bomb is dealing too much damage.

1 hour ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

If eating three cluster bombs from a glass thief is considered a oneshot and not grounds for downstate, I don't want to play this game anymore.

Catching TWO of them is a skill issue. 3 is mockery.

Nah man. Team fights are getting crazy with both hard and soft CC lately.

It is a very common thing during a 3v3 let's say, where you get a bunch of Reapers & DHs & Spellbreakres CCing and freezing each other to the floor, where a Thief quick comes out of stealth just above the fight or sometimes almost inside of it just off the side of a safe spot, and they start spamming Cluster Bomb. Honestly the hard & soft CC is so heavy nowadays, if the Thief is smart and waits to see something like a Chilled To The Bone or Maw go off, you'll be hard pressed to react quickly enough before 2 or 3 Clusters hit.

It's just dealing too much damage in 2024 mechanics. It's time that damage is cut. Even in 1v1s lately, which earlier I was in a game against Sind on a side all game, the good SD Daredevils are starting to play like weird Engis with a super grenade/mortar. They just abuse Cluster Bomb launching it at you from weird places around above or under LOS and stay in a place where you can't hit them the entire time. Thing is, the CB damage is so high that it actually does force you off nodes because they are able to spam it so often. And if you do try to stay on node and burn CDs to defend vs it, his init will come back a lot faster than your CDs, and then you're bottomed out on CDs when a SD starts porting in at you. It results in a situation where if the SD just plays uber defensively, they will bait out of your CDs and ultimately widdle you down until they know they can start safely porting in at you with melee and kill you. And if they have any doubt on their push, they just go back to ultra over defensive play again. Even if you're on a class with ports to chase, it's a thief and it has more stealth/ports than you do, it continues to kite and continues to lob Clusters at you. The damage has gotten to be too high man.

The Cluster mechanics are providing broken dynamic for SD. I don't find it as busted on DP, but rather very specifically on SD Daredevils. This started happening gradually with more and more power creep, until eventually you realize "woah, this skill is just dealing way too much damage nowadays for the mechanics surrounding it".

 

Edited September 9 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Endo.1652]

12 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Not if you aim it at the ground just next to and outside of the anti-projectile radius.

IE: A Druid Staff #5 anti projectile line is in between you and the Druid. The Druid is standing ON the line, which normally will stop all projectiles from any direction. But with Cluster Bomb, if you aim the detonation point about 20-30 range in front of line instead of on it, it will explode as normal and the actual AoE ground target damage will hit the Druid. This works the same way vs. all anti-projectile fields. They only stop the actual Cluster Bomb vector, not the damage if it explodes.

You're right, Wild Strike is .8 in pve and .43 in pvp. I didn't realize it had a pvp split.

All of the other information is correct so get off it.

This statement is somehow three things in one:

1. An extreme over exaggeration
2. Misinformation
3. Disinformation

They commonly use Cluster Bomb from stealth which you cannot see when the first shot is lobbed, and then due to its travel speed, they are able to swap and steal/backstab at you same time when the Cluster hits. The slow travel speed on Cluster is actually advantageous for them when landing backstab combos, not a disadvantage.

Cluster Bomb is dealing too much damage.

Nah man. Team fights are getting crazy with both hard and soft CC lately.

It is a very common thing during a 3v3 let's say, where you get a bunch of Reapers & DHs & Spellbreakres CCing and freezing each other to the floor, where a Thief quick comes out of stealth just above the fight or sometimes almost inside of it just off the side of a safe spot, and they start spamming Cluster Bomb. Honestly the hard & soft CC is so heavy nowadays, if the Thief is smart and waits to see something like a Chilled To The Bone or Maw go off, you'll be hard pressed to react quickly enough before 2 or 3 Clusters hit.

It's just dealing too much damage in 2024 mechanics. It's time that damage is cut. Even in 1v1s lately, which earlier I was in a game against Sind on a side all game, the good SD Daredevils are starting to play like weird Engis with a super grenade/mortar. They just abuse Cluster Bomb launching it at you from weird places around above or under LOS and stay in a place where you can't hit them the entire time. Thing is, the CB damage is so high that it actually does force you off nodes because they are able to spam it so often. And if you do try to stay on node and burn CDs to defend vs it, his init will come back a lot faster than your CDs, and then you're bottomed out on CDs when a SD starts porting in at you.

The Cluster mechanics are providing broken dynamic for SD. I don't find it as busted on DP, but rather very specifically on SD Daredevils. This started happening gradually with the mor and more power creep, until eventually you realize "woah, this skill is just dealing way too much damage nowadays for the mechanics surrounding it".

 

Nah when you state the power coefficients dont make sense. I am going to correct you on it. Its relevant since you brought it up.

Now for the main thing. If the cluster does 6k or 4k youd still complain about it. because the problem for you (and you dont realize this), isnt the damage. Its the frequency of it. If you want go your route to "fix" the problem, lets erase the damage it would be landing 2-3k on a beserker amulet class with a bunch of damage mods. Cause surly that makes sense right?? 🤔

Regarding the reflects. you can just walk away to the further end of your reflect line or ring then it doesnt hit you. Wow! Imagine that!  Or just keep holding the w key away from the thief and just watch em whiff a bunch of clusters. 

SD thieves also dont come into team fights from stealth. Their only sources of stealth is cloak n dagger which they have to be in melee range to land. Which means they port in to land it. I guess you know a thief is nearby once that happens right? Or they got it from a stolen item.

If one is sitting back and freecasting clusters in a team fight. Just focus the thief til he leaves or is dead... you're a ranger main. You can be literally built for that.