Let's say, theoretically, I wanted to refund Janthir Wilds...

[Jumpin Lumpix.6108]

3 hours ago, Cernoch.8524 said:

What are you even talking about? Balance patches happens in EVERY online game since day one, all the time, no, it is not removing "content". Removing content would be if they completely removed the spear after a week or two. In that case yes, it is a valid reason for a refund. Just changing something that was OP is not, they did not even change its mechanic, how the skill works (for example range auto attack would become melee) or anything like that, they only changed the damage and the fact that you have to hit the enemy with skill 4 which is not a big change. Changes like this happens every 3 months.

Let me say it this way, if anet changed the skills completely but it would be more OP than it already was (and still is btw) OP would never come with this idea of refund. His issue is only that the skills got a bit nerfed. Did anet ever showed the numbers and stats before JW release and said they will stay like this forever? No. Do they change and balance things almost every patch? Yes. And they will keep doing it until this game die.

Transfusion just got nerfed a lot, more than any of those warrior skills, so did heal scourge, does people want refund for PoF? No lol

You really have to be completely crazy or naive to think from now on they will not balance or change anything tied to JW. They keep doing it for 12 years, just like every other online game.

lowering the damage is removing content.  the damage you lost is removed.

[Cernoch.8524]

9 minutes ago, Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

lowering the damage is removing content.  the damage you lost is removed.

So....if they buff dmg of all classes by 20% they add content to the game?

[Jumpin Lumpix.6108]

2 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

None of what he -intentionally vaguely- linked contains anything that makes balance patches against the law/regulations. It's not "my refusal to educate myself about law!" that makes his attempted argument (or rather accusation) false, it's the fact he's guessing when no laws are being broken here. Your idea -if it's even an honest one- that someone is free to scream "this breaks the law!" and whoever he talks to is supposed to make a basis for that claim for him is a ridiculous nonsense. That's simply not how any of that works, whether you like it or not.

They're also not mutually exclusive and in this case it's clear he's unable to provide anything for a long time now.

im sorry where did I say that the spear nerf was illegal?  I dont ever recall saying that, please show me where I said that since you love quoting so much.  In fact I recall clarifying that I didn't think it was. I was addressing your insistence to derail the thread onto the topic of gacha game legal issues surrounding community outrage.  You're constantly making stuff up and accusing users of making arguments they didnt make, while simultaneously having no position yourself and mercilessly attacking people in threads where there is any form of dissatisfaction with the game.  I'm seriously concerned for your mental health, you should take a look in the mirror and reflect on your behavior and go outside and touch some grass.

[Jumpin Lumpix.6108]

2 minutes ago, Cernoch.8524 said:

So....if they buff dmg of all classes by 20% they add content to the game?

yes this is why people are ok with buffs and not nerfs.  This is also historically where power creep comes in most of the time, not only as a selling point but due to players not wanting buffs removed.

Edited September 14 by Jumpin Lumpix.6108

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

4 minutes ago, Cernoch.8524 said:

So....if they buff dmg of all classes by 20% they add content to the game?

Balance patches and reworks of underused weapons are content. If you couldn't use a weapon because it was bad, then they revamped it so it's usable or good, you have access to new functionality.

There is always a shifting framework of how much things can be pushed or pulled before the changes become specifically deleterious to game enjoyment. 

Edited September 14 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Cernoch.8524]

5 minutes ago, Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

yes this is why people are ok with buffs and not nerfs.

So if lets say you play a elementalist, every other class get buffed while your class is unchanged (keep in mind it is an example, we saw it happen to almost every other class everyone now and then). And you are a wvw player, which means your class is significantly harder to play against other classes, that is removing the content for you too, right?

And other way arround, if they nerf every other class but yours it is adding content for you as pvp player?

 

No, balancing classes whether it is buffing or nerfing, without changing core mechanics, is not adding or removing content, it does not even make sense.

[Cernoch.8524]

8 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Balance patches and reworks of underused weapons are content.

Reworks yes, I can agree with that. But nerfing OP things is not. Just like buffing weak skills is not. Damage change is not reworking, just to be clear here but if you believe it is, then goodluck finding online game that never changed anything.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

3 minutes ago, Cernoch.8524 said:

Reworks yes, I can agree with that. But nerfing OP things is not. Just like buffing weak skills is not. Damage change is not reworking, just to be clear here but if you believe it is, then goodluck finding online game that never changed anything.

They did more than nerf an OP thing, that's what I'm trying to convey to you. The spear was reworked.

I have no entitlement to trivialized wins, but I do expect my weapons to work in the context of the gamemode I enjoy. 

We can argue all day about where that line ought to be, but for me it was crossed.

Edited September 14 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Jumpin Lumpix.6108]

15 minutes ago, Cernoch.8524 said:

So if lets say you play a elementalist, every other class get buffed while your class is unchanged (keep in mind it is an example, we saw it happen to almost every other class everyone now and then). And you are a wvw player, which means your class is significantly harder to play against other classes, that is removing the content for you too, right?

And other way arround, if they nerf every other class but yours it is adding content for you as pvp player?

 

No, balancing classes whether it is buffing or nerfing, without changing core mechanics, is not adding or removing content, it does not even make sense.

People dont like the class they play to be directly weakened, even if they scaled the entire game up and made everything harder so its all relative they dont like the class they play to be diminished from what they're used to, since they either paid for it, they play it, they're invested in it or all of the above, and they dont want to see "features" such as damage, utilities directly reduced.  If the class gets too weak because everything else was buffed they call for a buff of their class, but they dont feel like things were taken away from them.

You have a point, it is all relative. I also want to clarifying that I acknowledge that balancing needs to occur its just how it occurs thats important.  Nobody wants their class to be weakened and this is why power creep is introduced in almost every game due to hesitance on the developer to go in and nerf each class, because of the psychological effect it has on the playerbase.

I think if they left spear the way it was, and buffed every weapon in the entire game and increased the defense/hp of every mob in the entire game so it was balanced, nobody would be complaining about this right now (which to your argument is the same result/outcome) because the view is that no content affecting their class was removed. But thats a ton of work and the devs arent going to do that. So now people are upset since the spear was just sold as this powerful new weapon and now its nerfed so people feel jipped.

Edited September 14 by Jumpin Lumpix.6108

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

4 minutes ago, Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

So now people are upset since the spear was just sold as this powerful new weapon and now its nerfed so people feel jipped.

I care less about the power of the weapon, and more that they reintroduced the ineffective nature of the skills that they initally changed with feedback.

I would have been able to tolerate less damage, but not in tandem with the skill changes. If the weapon released from beta as it was, I would not have bought it, and now the weapon has been changed to function largely like it did in beta. 

Edited September 14 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Obtena.7952]

59 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Thought experiment.

Lets say you're looking at the cosmetic shop of another game. There's a really cool blue jacket with some blue particle trails on it that you like, as blue is your favorite color.  You buy it.  The next day, there's a change note that says that due to some issues with how that jacket renders on a certain subset of machines, some changes had to be made to the jacket. 

The jacket is now yellow, with yellow particle trails.  You still have access to the jacket, but it is markedly different from the one you bought and has features you did not consider or expect when making your purchase.

Is this a content loss? The item you wanted and bought is technically still in the game, it just is not the one your purchased.

More importantly, are you entitled to a refund of the jacket?

No it's not a content loss ... you still have the jacket. The dig here isn't if you deserve a refund or not. It's the dishonest claim that Anet 'removed content' so you are entitled to a refund. It's a half-truth that you posted to the forum as a ruse to complain about game changes and balance. 

Edited September 14 by Obtena.7952

[Jumpin Lumpix.6108]

3 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

No it's not a content loss ... you still have the jacket. The dig here isn't if you deserve a refund or not. It's the dishonest claim that Anet 'removed content' so you are entitled to a refund. It's a half-truth that you posted to the forum as a ruse to complain about game changes and balance. 

well if a weapon does x amount of damage and x utilities, and then they make it so it does less damage and the utilities are diminished, then that difference is content that is lost.  I mean where did the missing damage go?  Where did what the utilities used to do go?  Its gone.  Its removed content.  A nerf is removed content.

Edited September 14 by Jumpin Lumpix.6108

[Obtena.7952]

1 minute ago, Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

well if a weapon does x amount of damage and x utilities, and then they make it so it does less damage and the utilities are diminished, then that difference is content that is lost.  I mean where did the damage go?  Where did the utilities go?  Its gone.  Its removed content.

That makes no sense. It's simply dishonest to claim that a loss in damage is equitable to lost content. It's a half-truth to claim that changing function is removal of content as well. 

Edited September 14 by Obtena.7952

[Jumpin Lumpix.6108]

2 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

That makes no sense. You don't 'lose' content if Anet makes changes to weapon skills. It's simply dishonest to claim that a loss in damage is equitable to lost content. 

if a weapon does damage, and applies burning.  And now the weapon does damage and applies no burning.  Thats a nerf, and the weapon has LOST its ability to do burning damage. That content is REMOVED.  the weapon no longer does that.  they actively went in and removed that utility from the weapon.  What else would you call that lol?

Its a nerf, a removal, and a balance all at once.

Edited September 14 by Jumpin Lumpix.6108

[Obtena.7952]

1 minute ago, Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

if a weapon does damage, and applies burning.  And now the weapon does damage and applies no burning.  Thats a nerf, and weapon has LOST its ability to do burning damage. That content is REMOVED.  the weapon no longer does that.  they actively went in and removed that utility from the weapon.  What else would you call that lol?

I'm not arguing with you about what constitutes 'content'. The idea that a weapon applying a condition is 'content' is a contrived argument. 

Edited September 14 by Obtena.7952

[Jumpin Lumpix.6108]

Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

I'm not arguing with you about what constitutes 'content'. The idea that a weapon applying a condition is 'content' is a contrived argument. 

its a nerf, a balance, and removal of content all at once.  Usually people dont like it either, thus the topic of this thread.

[Obtena.7952]

2 minutes ago, Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

its a nerf, a balance, and removal of content all at once.  Usually people dont like it either, thus the topic of this thread.

If your definition of content is so broad that it can include anything you want, then if I use that definition, I would argue that Anet is well within their rights to 'remove content' for the sake of game balance and hence, it's not some automatic refundable condition when it happens. 

So again, WHATEVER the definition of 'content' is, the thread is simply a ruse to complain about game balance by the OP pretending the forums and average players are authorities on what constitutes a refundable position. 

Edited September 14 by Obtena.7952

[Jumpin Lumpix.6108]

1 minute ago, Obtena.7952 said:

If your definition of content is so broad that it can include anything you want, then using that definition, I would argue that Anet is well within their rights to 'remove content' for the sake of game balance. 

So again, WHATEVER the definition of 'content' is, the thread is simply a ruse to complain about game balance. 

sure anet can do what they want and then the community can be upset about it, which is what this thread is.

[Obtena.7952]

Just now, Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

sure anet can do what they want and then the community can be upset about it, which is what this thread is.

NO, that's NOT what the thread is. That's what you want to argue the thread is to avoid all the instances you don't make sense when you make posts in it. 

It's pretty clear what the thread is. In fact, if you are admitting the thread is about being upset about changes to the game, you are actually making my point AGAINST the OP. 

Edited September 14 by Obtena.7952

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

14 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

No it's not a content loss ... you still have the jacket. The dig here isn't if you deserve a refund or not.

See that's where you and I differ.  If a company does that I'm not going to accept it without looking to return it. It's not what I paid for. 

Quote

It's the dishonest claim that Anet 'removed content' so you are entitled to a refund. It's a half-truth that you posted to the forum as a ruse to complain about game changes and balance. 

I haven't complained at all here.  I mentioned multiple times Anet has the right to balance their game however they please. I just didn't feel compelled to unconditionally support that this time for no benefit. 

As for dishonesty, I no longer have what I paid for, as much as you want to convince me otherwise. 

Edited September 14 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Jumpin Lumpix.6108]

3 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

NO, that's NOT what the thread is. That's what you want to argue the thread is to avoid all the instances you don't make sense when you make posts in it. 

the point of the thread is the OP was upset and asked for a refund, that should be concerning for devs, because if the OP is doing that, how many others are doing that and are simply not vocal about it.  I'm not happy with it.  It messed up my strats in wvw and my strike group. I made an entire class with full stats and a new look only to have it completely nerfed. 

So yah i'm not too please they went and did this after all of this stuff was supposed to be tested in the beta, it seems very deliberate that they waited a month to do this after the expansion.

I'm not asking for a refund as theres other aspects of the expansion i enjoy, but if i was liek the OP and all I did was spvp or wvw I could see asking for a refund.

Edited September 14 by Jumpin Lumpix.6108

[Obtena.7952]

2 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

See that's where you and I differ.  If a company does that I'm not going to accept it without looking to return it. It's not what I paid for. 

No, we don't differ on that ... I'm not arguing IN YOUR EXAMPLE it's not what you paid for. I'm arguing that you don't have a reasonable expectation for how the game can change and that you aren't being honest about how you want to argue you deserve a refund.  

2 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

I haven't complained at all here.  I mentioned multiple times Anet has the right to balance their game however they please. I just didn't feel compelled to unconditionally support that this time for no benefit. 

Exactly, you didn't complain, you should have ... the thread is a ruse. SOMEHOW you thought the BEST place to ask if you could get a refund for 'removed content' was the forum. Problem is that the content isn't removed and the average player isn't the authority on what constitutes a refundable position. 

Edited September 14 by Obtena.7952

[Randulf.7614]

This perhaps a time to walk away. Balance changes and their ilk are not only part and parcel of every live game service, they are part of the contractual agreement signed up for when joining the game. Every game company knows that balance changes will ALWAYS upset some and aid others. They know this better than anyone

I'm not sure what is being gained by goung round in circles arguing. The OP got their refund. It's Saturday night peeps, go have some fun 😉

[Obtena.7952]

1 minute ago, Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

the point of the thread is the OP was upset and asked for a refund

NO, that's NOT the point of the thread. The point of the thread was that the OP asked the forum if they thought they were entitled to a refund. 

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

Just now, Randulf.7614 said:

This perhaps a time to walk away. Balance changes and their ilk are not only part and parcel of every live game service, they are part of the contractual agreement signed up for when joining the game. Every game company knows that balance changes will ALWAYS upset some and aid others. They know this better than anyone

I'm not sure what is being gained by goung round in circles arguing. The OP got their refund. It's Saturday night peeps, go have some fun 😉

^ this is correct, happened on page 2. Idk why its almost 10 pages long now