October 8 Balance Update Preview

[Malus.2184]

52 minutes ago, reddie.5861 said:

didnt read a single comment, but i didnt see a single nerf for willbender in this patch.
how we suppose to take it serious? 😄

they could lower the dmg and or increase the cooldown on skills.
theres no way a class should be able to kitten all boons have invul and so much blocks can dish out this much dmg without a downside.

in general the dmg in WvW is way to high, and boon uptime aswell..
important boons should just be capped to 2 or 3 seconds max.
stab 2 seconds alac 2 seconds quickness 3 seconds.

might etc can be 1min but not these insane kitten boons making a huge different.
they still make a huge different but they do if u use them correct, nowadays every1 runs around with 100 boons on them having insane up time.

They're getting a massive nerf simply by Cele no longer having Concentration and Expertise. Cele is really good for WIllbender as they rely on their Boons to give them massive defensive and offensive power. The doubling of duration for all of them means that the weakness of Cele, the less than mediocre stats on everything, is majorly offset by the Boons. Low Toughness? All damage Strike Damage reduced by 33% is a lot more than the loss in toughness, and all Condi damage reduced by 33% for long periods of time is more than offset by the long Resolution uptimes. I could go on like this. The fact is that Cele on its own is a rather weak set. It's the toolkit of Willbender that makes this prefix extremely strong. By nerfing the prefix the toolkit will be massively affected as now Willbenders will have windows where you can vail on them.

[Malus.2184]

3 hours ago, Tammuz.7361 said:

Necromancer: Transfusion and Extirpate changes.  Stripping away a classes core mechanics is really kinda sad.

Making Core Class mechanics better than Elite Spec mechanics better by an order of magnitude is worse.

[Malus.2184]

3 hours ago, Kulvar.1239 said:

That would be much better. And make it the same in PvE so we don't split the gear between PvE and WvW.

Normalize runes so they no longer give ???/5%/???/10%/???/10% boon or condition duration,
but ???/35/???/65/???/125 concentration or expertise, that's 10% less boon or condition duration.

Lower the 639 to each attribute of celestial to be between 500 and 550 to each attribute (exact value left to ANet).
3-stats total is 3300 and 4-stats total is 3600, so celestial going from 5751 to between 4000 and 4950 total seems fine.

A problem will still be a problem if you allow the cause to remain. It'll just be less of a problem or a problem less often. It'll still exist though.

[Malus.2184]

2 hours ago, Zily.3152 said:

It goes much farther back than that. Necro isn't the first class to lose their uniqueness and necro has already lost one identity. Now it's about to lose its other one. 

This is a rather dumb take as Transfusion was never an identity, being able to enter a Shroud is. Transfusion is a CHOICE on a Traitline that's also a CHOICE to take. If it was part of their identity then it would be baked into the spec.

Yes, Shift Signet also makes me salty.

[intomatar.4539]

I'd like to see traits that will increase CC damage from support classes.

[Shade.8037]

31 minutes ago, Malus.2184 said:

This is a rather dumb take as Transfusion was never an identity, being able to enter a Shroud is. Transfusion is a CHOICE on a Traitline that's also a CHOICE to take. If it was part of their identity then it would be baked into the spec.

Yes, Shift Signet also makes me salty.

I totally disagree with you. I have never see any scourge heal not run that trait line. It's no more a choice than running the healer trait line for chrono. 

Also scourge doesn't even go into Shroud, not like other necro's, we just throw crap on the ground and swirl, no new abilities, no transformation. The class identity USED to be corruption, they took that, then it was resurrections based healer. Now they are just leaving us with the worst buffs, the worst healing, and barriers that they keep adding more and more to other classes. 

The ONLY unique thing about scourge, was that it could manipulate downed state in a way other healers could not, that is it's identity weather or not you like it, and they are destroying that for every pve player because some people in wvw are salty, it's selfish and lazy.

[Malus.2184]

7 minutes ago, Shade.8037 said:

I totally disagree with you. I have never see any scourge heal not run that trait line. It's no more a choice than running the healer trait line for chrono. 

Also scourge doesn't even go into Shroud, not like other necro's, we just throw crap on the ground and swirl, no new abilities, no transformation. The class identity USED to be corruption, they took that, then it was resurrections based healer. Now they are just leaving us with the worst buffs, the worst healing, and barriers that they keep adding more and more to other classes. 

The ONLY unique thing about scourge, was that it could manipulate downed state in a way other healers could not, that is it's identity weather or not you like it, and they are destroying that for every pve player because some people in wvw are salty, it's selfish and lazy.

It's still a Shroud they use, it's just a better-balanced one than Reaper. Also, just because everyone using it means that they use the meta builds. They can still choose differently even if it makes them suboptimal. If it really was a part of the Scourge class identity then it would be on the Scourge trait line. As of now, Core Necro can take it, Reaper can take it, and Harbinger can take it. You're moving the goalpost when you start by saying that it was a Core identity, Shroud is the Core identity, and now talking about how Scourge is bad because there's no more transfusion which means that it was never a Core Class identity, it was a Scourge one, which is their Sand Swells and their special version of Shroud.

Edited Sunday at 05:18 PM by Malus.2184

[Shade.8037]

12 minutes ago, Malus.2184 said:

It's still a Shroud they use, it's just a better-balanced one than Reaper. Also, just because everyone using it means that they use the meta builds. They can still choose differently even if it makes them suboptimal. If it really was a part of the Scourge class identity then it would be on the Scourge trait line. As of now, Core Necro can take it, Reaper can take it, and Harbinger can take it. You're moving the goalpost when you start by saying that it was a Core identity, Shroud is the Core identity, and now talking about how Scourge is bad because there's no more transfusion which means that it was never a Core Class identity, it was a Scourge one, which is their Sand Swells and their special version of Shroud.

Oh yeah, Mesmer portals is totally not part of the class identity because it is a utility people can choose.

Your argument is silly.

Edited Sunday at 05:29 PM by Shade.8037

[Malus.2184]

4 minutes ago, Shade.8037 said:

Oh yeah, Mesmer portals is totally not part of the class identity because it is a utility people can choose.

Your argument is silly.

Correct. People bring Mesmers for other things. The Portal is only a part of "their core identity" for skipping.

[Shade.8037]

1 minute ago, Malus.2184 said:

Correct. People bring Mesmers for other things. The Portal is only a part of "their core identity" for skipping.

Welp good thing i never said that portal was the only reason they got brought huh? Now who is moving the goal posts.

[Lucy.3728]

So, back to borish minstrel boon ball meta in wvw everyone was complaining about before the cele meta. The whining will never decrease that way when switching one complaint for the next complaint.

Why's transfusion nerfed in pve? I mean you nerf something like that and send a class form useful to useless. What's the point? Did raid bosses complain?

[Gaiawolf.8261]

1 hour ago, Malus.2184 said:

What is the reward when you can never win against an equally skilled opponent in Cele gear if they have a build that takes advantage of all the stats?

Sure, you would have a point if that was true, but quite frankly it's not. I play marauder, trailblazer, and cele builds. Marauder has the advantage in all fights except against power ganker glass cannons. Having an advantage against one type of build does not equate to game mode dominance. That's just called an effective counter to a popular playatyle.

[Malus.2184]

14 minutes ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

Sure, you would have a point if that was true, but quite frankly it's not. I play marauder, trailblazer, and cele builds. Marauder has the advantage in all fights except against power ganker glass cannons. Having an advantage against one type of build does not equate to game mode dominance. That's just called an effective counter to a popular playatyle.

Then you've never played against Roamers that can take full advantage of Cele. I have no issue with any other stat and I win as many as I lose on that, except with Cele, then I just lose. If I go to my Cel Garbinger I can win easily against anyone save Cele Daradevel D/P, SB, and Relic of the Warrior.

What Tier are you in?

[Malus.2184]

20 minutes ago, Shade.8037 said:

Welp good thing i never said that portal was the only reason they got brought huh? Now who is moving the goal posts.

You explicitly mentioned portals as part of their identity. It's just something they can use. Their identity is clones and phantasms.

[Shade.8037]

Just now, Malus.2184 said:

You explicitly mentioned portals as part of their identity. It's just something they can use. Their identity is clones and phantasms.

And portals. You know things can have multiple components to it right? Either way i am done arguing with you, anyone that says Mesmer portals have nothing to do with the class identity, is self evidently wrong and not worth engaging in further.

[Lukeers.2053]

I Understand that Anet are trying to make alacheal tempest viable, the rebound getting stab is amazing.

But honestly I would go one step further,

Replace elemental bastion to heal on aura plus grant alac to allies you grant an aura to. Switch it to might in pvp/wvw

Make lucid singularity to make overloads ground targeted and also minor overload around your location too.

The problem with heal tempest is that there needs to be some healing when you're attuned to other elements except for water. Overloading in other elements leaves you at a stalemate sometimes, so it's good to have that extra heal at the end of an overload channel.

Love the other buffs however. And finally quick cata is made easier...

I would make the energy gain baseline on activating an jade sphere. Maybe reduce it a bit to compensate, as it can be very difficult in real fights to coordinate your bursts to fuel up your energy in between jade sphere casts.

[Gaiawolf.8261]

54 minutes ago, Malus.2184 said:

Then you've never played against Roamers that can take full advantage of Cele. I have no issue with any other stat and I win as many as I lose on that, except with Cele, then I just lose. If I go to my Cel Garbinger I can win easily against anyone save Cele Daradevel D/P, SB, and Relic of the Warrior.

What Tier are you in?

I've played against players of all skill levels. Player skill trumps gear any day of the weekly matchup. Stat preference is a minor concern on any match I've been involved with since 2012. I'm on Rall's Rest (T3?) now. Last month we were T2.

Edited Sunday at 06:50 PM by Gaiawolf.8261

[Titan.7853]

1 hour ago, Riba.3271 said:

This doesn't change celestial tankiness against burst since all they are doing is taking away boon duration and condition duration. This means boon duration only gives you value after boons would regularly run out. Almost all sources of stability last ~5 seconds and protection 3+ seconds, meaning your tankiness for those 3 seconds is unchanged.

Celestial will be as tanky against burst damage as before and will still serve its purpose for surviving short duration.

Yes, and?  Why not take away Power and Precision too?  The same could be said for Minstrels.

My point was that Cele is not really worth taking without Concentration and Expertise, because those things make it worthwhile offensively.  It was never quite as good as a dedicated offensive set, but you could make a build around it that had decent offensive and good survivability.  In other words, something that made WvW tolerable, where you didn't feel like a glass cannon ready to pop at a moments notice.  Without Concentration and Expertise, your offensive output will feel rather pathetic.

Edited Sunday at 06:11 PM by Titan.7853

[Zily.3152]

1 hour ago, Malus.2184 said:

This is a rather dumb take as Transfusion was never an identity, being able to enter a Shroud is. Transfusion is a CHOICE on a Traitline that's also a CHOICE to take. If it was part of their identity then it would be baked into the spec.

Yes, Shift Signet also makes me salty.

Tell me you don't know what an identity is, without telling me you don't know what an identity is.

 

Also, shift signet is an engineer skill (mechanist), not a necro skill. And with no quote as a buffer between the two statements, that tells me all I need to know with this.

[Titan.7853]

Here's a thought exercise for everyone reading this. 

Think of WvW as ranked PvP where people of all skill levels (including beginners) are in the same match.  Ever PvP against a platinum player?  It's a whole lot different than playing against a silver player.  It's easy to blame Cele, when you lose to a platinum player.  Sure, blame the equipment (you can't in PvP).

Well, now that equipment is being nerfed, and it was one of the things that made WvW tolerable, because you at least had a combination of survivability and decent offense.  That's about to be gone.  I would rather see specs that overperform with Cele gear balanced, rather than Cele nerfed.  Things are about to get worse, not better, particularly for new and casual players in WvW.

Edited Sunday at 06:25 PM by Titan.7853

[GeraldBC.4927]

2 hours ago, Malus.2184 said:

They're getting a massive nerf simply by Cele no longer having Concentration and Expertise. Cele is really good for WIllbender as they rely on their Boons to give them massive defensive and offensive power. The doubling of duration for all of them means that the weakness of Cele, the less than mediocre stats on everything, is majorly offset by the Boons.

Why nerf celestial for everyone if you can simply solve that issue by nerfing willbender specifically? Just decrease the durations on the virtues' boons. Then double the cooldowns on every wb mobility skill and it's fixed. 

[Karuji.2705]

Just another quick pass by asking to reconsider removing Transfusion in PvE 🙏

 

#JusticeForHealScourge
#JokoWouldNotDoThis

[Riba.3271]

41 minutes ago, Titan.7853 said:

 

My point was that Cele is not really worth taking without Concentration and Expertise, because those things make it worthwhile offensivel

You are wrong about this as there were several celestial roaming builds already before concentration and expertise were added to it. It even saw some use in blob builds after release of HoT. It was always good statline to put in your build when you wanted to put in some tankiness while keeping damage high.

They added Concentration and Expertise because celestial wasn't used in PvE. In WvW it was very much used occassionally, especially if you count builds that only ran part celestial.

Edited Sunday at 06:53 PM by Riba.3271

[Gaiawolf.8261]

41 minutes ago, Titan.7853 said:

Yes, and?  Why not take away Power and Precision too?  The same could be said for Minstrels.

My point was that Cele is not really worth taking without Concentration and Expertise, because those things make it worthwhile offensively.  It was never quite as good as a dedicated offensive set, but you could make a build around it that had decent offensive and good survivability.  In other words, something that made WvW tolerable, where you didn't feel like a glass cannon ready to pop at a moments notice.  Without Concentration and Expertise, your offensive output will feel rather pathetic.

That's a true story. Concentration and/or expertise are pretty much the only thing going for it, except with the rare builds that prime condi damage but also happen to have decent strike coefficients. Defensive stats can be found on other gears.. Any necessary nerfs could have been handled better with numbers tweaking rather than removing functionality.

[Riba.3271]

1 minute ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

47 minutes ago, Titan.7853 said:

 

That's a true story. Concentration and/or expertise are pretty much the only thing going for it, except with the rare builds that prime condi damage but also happen to have decent strike coefficients. Defensive stats can be found on other gears.. Any necessary nerfs could have been handled better with numbers tweaking rather than removing functionality.

Wrong. Celestial was used actively in several WvW builds before concentration and expertise were added to it. Lot of them were mix of several stats, some full celestial and others even blob builds.

Edited Sunday at 06:58 PM by Riba.3271