With ''Extirpation'' being removed - a proposal for a new condition instead: OCCLUSION

[ProtoMarcus.7649]

Granting highly unique effects to specific professions or skills has always been a curious approach that I've always found... Underwhelming?

AFAIK we still do not know the reasoning behind the upcoming removal of ''Extirpation''/''Extirpate'' from Necro Spear - but the Boonball Meta is still too strong (and pretty boring) - so why not create a new, adjacent solution to it?

I present the proposal of a new condition: OCCLUSION

OCCLUSION

• Non-damaging condition
• Can stack up to 5 times
• Blocks the application of a single boon per stack of occlusion
• Becomes the new ''corruption''/''corrupted'' version of AEGIS (if Aegis is corrupted into a condition, it is corrupted into a stack of Occlusion)
• If converted into a boon, it would be converted into AEGIS

By changing such an effect into a condition,

• It allows for other classes or skills to potentially apply this effect
• It offers some counter play through condition removal/conversion
• It may contribute in fixing the boon ball meta

[eldrevo.1746]

This is a great idea. Honestly, a way to fix current boon creep and improve combat depth / class identity would be adding more new boons and conditions.

With what effects we have today, I feel like there is too little you can slap on a new weapon or ability to make it feel cool, so usually we end up with boon/condition creeping everything that needs to feel cool. When a Core ability would give Blindness or Weakness and it'd feel strong enough, nowadays we need Blindness, Weakness, Vulnerability, Cripple and maybe a Daze for a skill to be considered strong. Boons became more like shopping lists for Support builds to check out, and it became pretty easy for a lot of Professions to check almost every box. New types of effects can help with that, just like how adding Quickness, Alacrity, Superspeed, Resistance, Barrier helped make existing specs more interesting before (well before every class had Quick and Alac slapped onto it).

So, Occlusion is a good thing to add, but we can go further:

• A boon version of Occlusion, preventing conditions from applying
• Healing over time versions of Poison, Confusion and Torment, to add more alternatives to Regen and make healer gameplay more interesting
• A condi version of Resistance that'd make some boons ineffective (could be split in two for offensive and defensive boons)
• A boon and/or condition that causes you to auto-cleanse conditions / lose boons over time
• Anti-barrier that absorbs incoming healing
• A condition that prevents you from using movement abilities like leaps and teleports (but still allows movement)

Surely, adding a lot of stuff to current system might end up very confusing and destabilizing the combat and meta, but slowly tweaking the entire system, with one or two new things per expansion, should be the right way forward. The boon system as it is right now feels old, and the game has grown too big for it. I would really like the devs to have courage to get their hands a little dirty with it, instead of just cranking things up in a way they are.

[ProtoMarcus.7649]

Yeah over the years I've imagined a few such effects to ''round up'' the boons:conditions - namely;

Quote

• A boon version of Occlusion, preventing conditions from applying

PURIFICATION

• Prevents one stack of condition from being applied per stack of PURIFICATION
• Stacks up to 5 times

 

Quote

• Healing over time versions of Poison, Confusion and Torment, to add more alternatives to Regen and make healer gameplay more interesting

While I do think all 3 is a bit much, one that would regen + have another effect could be interesting;

RESTORATION

• The beneficial opposite of poison
• Heals over time like regen, but also increases incoming healing (the opposite of poison's reduced healing)

----

I also once envisioned some condition that would reduce boon duration actively - in that if you had that condition, boons would be ''used up'' 25/33% quicker. Back then I thought it could be an interesting effect to add to BURNING as burning is otherwise just a ''bleed'' in that it is simply ''damage over time'' without any unique effect, whereas Poison, Torment, Confusion are DoT with unique effects!

So a target with BURNING would have damage over time, but also see their boons being ''used up'' quicker, as if ''magic is being burned away''

 

Beyond that, I do think adding too many new boons and conditions can lead to diminishing returns - both for players, gameplay mechanics, and add extra strain to server load - but I definitely would like to see some new/different effects!

 

[bq pd.2148]

1 hour ago, ProtoMarcus.7649 said:

Granting highly unique effects to specific professions or skills has always been a curious approach that I've always found... Underwhelming?

AFAIK we still do not know the reasoning behind the upcoming removal of ''Extirpation''/''Extirpate'' from Necro Spear - but the Boonball Meta is still too strong (and pretty boring) - so why not create a new, adjacent solution to it?

the reason it gets removed should be rather obvious, because it massively underperformed.
if you apply a strip, you remove entire stacks of boons. while extirpate was only canceling single application. - wow your next 3 stacks of might didnt get through, but the other 200 did just fine.
it was essentially a much weaker potential strip, just like your new suggestion, especially as yours also has to get past a million condi cleanses.

personally i think the spamm itself is the problem.

• reduce sources/frequency of boons but at longer duration so that strips themself become more impactful.
• then have strips with fixed priority lists, some do have them (like thief bountiful theft and rending shade traits or their s/d larcenous strike) but many do not.
  this would allow you to more deliberately target the boon you actually need gone (stab/resistance for cc, protection/resolution for damage etc.) instead of needing to strip the opponent of all their boons.

[ProtoMarcus.7649]

1 hour ago, bq pd.2148 said:

the reason it gets removed should be rather obvious, because it massively underperformed.

I'm not so sure that is the (sole) reason - I remember during the stream they proudly said they'd monitor the effect closely and could quickly adjust the values if needed - if it underperformed it feels like they simply could've cranked up the numbers?

Or perhaps they are planning on eventually re-introducing the effect as a new condition and bundling it with some other skills across the game 🤔

Quote

personally i think the spamm itself is the problem.

It is definitely a problem indeed that needs more than a new effect (that they're removing anyway) to fix

[bq pd.2148]

7 hours ago, ProtoMarcus.7649 said:

I'm not so sure that is the (sole) reason - I remember during the stream they proudly said they'd monitor the effect closely and could quickly adjust the values if needed - if it underperformed it feels like they simply could've cranked up the numbers?

Or perhaps they are planning on eventually re-introducing the effect as a new condition and bundling it with some other skills across the game 🤔

i don't think cranking up the numbers comes without issues either.

as the larger the scale, the higher the boons/s. thats due to boon applications that have more than 5 people target cap, any support skill more likely to support to its capacity by supporting squad members when the own subgroup members are out of reach/need and most importantly: the larger the group the more % of your players can be support if you can coordinate your damage.

so it will be difficult or impossible to find a value that is noticeable on larger scales without being too strong on smaller ones.

[Funky.4861]

If boon application frequency is the problem, then boon strip/corrupt application frequency is an easy answer. Make boon strips much more available across every class (they can make it a competitive mode-only thing) AND make boon strips prevent re-application of that boon for, let's say 5 secs. The problem with boonball meta in wvw as i see it, is that anet wants players to enjoy that power fantasy. Until this flawed thinking is fixed, boons will always be a problem in wvw. Other power fantasies, such as area denial, control and debuffing seem to have fallen out of favour.

[PetrLivingLife.8516]

On 9/14/2024 at 10:14 AM, ProtoMarcus.7649 said:

Granting highly unique effects to specific professions or skills has always been a curious approach that I've always found... Underwhelming?

AFAIK we still do not know the reasoning behind the upcoming removal of ''Extirpation''/''Extirpate'' from Necro Spear - but the Boonball Meta is still too strong (and pretty boring) - so why not create a new, adjacent solution to it?

I present the proposal of a new condition: OCCLUSION

OCCLUSION

Great idea! Other ideas above for new boons/conditions also great!

But! too many conditions/boons could be bad overall. The boon/buff/debuff/condition space is already out dated. And cant handle the boon meta plus everything else. Imagine few new icons.

After playing wvw and pvp for year I unfortuately don't trust the balance team know what they are doing. So this would make things even more complicated.

Ad boon meta - why create another "solution" instead of fixing root cause. This is the reason why pvp is so awful - they are not willing to just nerf damage, stuns etc and instead they buff damage of other classes so we have even more spikes of damage and gameplay experience goes to sewage.

Again great idea, not sure they can handle it well.

[Cuks.8241]

22 hours ago, Funky.4861 said:

If boon application frequency is the problem, then boon strip/corrupt application frequency is an easy answer. Make boon strips much more available across every class (they can make it a competitive mode-only thing) AND make boon strips prevent re-application of that boon for, let's say 5 secs. The problem with boonball meta in wvw as i see it, is that anet wants players to enjoy that power fantasy. Until this flawed thinking is fixed, boons will always be a problem in wvw. Other power fantasies, such as area denial, control and debuffing seem to have fallen out of favour.

Disagree. You don't fix spam with more counter spam. Well you can but it just makes combat even more spam spam spam.

It's what we have with condi applications vs cleansing. There is not much tactics at all. Maybe in spvp but even there it's degraded.  Anything at larger scales is just as long as you spam more cleanses than condis you're good. Otherwise you're probably just dead.

And while strips are currently too scarce or at a minimum threshold for the most coordinated groups, increasing strips is imo a bad solution. We would be just adding more spam to counter the boon barf. Boons need to be cut down. Both in the number of available boons (each boons that is off the table has big impact on strips effectiveness) and in available applications. 

While Occlusion seems like a great tactical condi I'm not sure it would have much impact in this game and how spammy and low cd the overall combat is. They were trying to bring some tactics already with Torment and Confusion and I doubt it had an effect they wanted. In a slower and more tactical games this could work great. In this game if you catch your enemy with no cleanses available, whats your priority? Prevent 5 boon applications or just burn him down.

[Funky.4861]

No actually- you can fight fire with fire. If boons are stripped quickly (and their reapplication is delayed) that creates a window of opportunity for an organised squad to at least chip away at a boonblob. GW2 is a spammy game anyway.