Defense events are now extremely stupid

[aelflune.8590]

A few times already this week, I've experienced entire fights with zergs inside my team's keeps, with orange swords and everything, killing at least some and once wiping out the entire zerg without the keep even being contested.

Whoever made the changes to how defense events work is really incompetent. Seriously, who the heck looks at this and thinks it's fine? Wtf.

[Tom.6032]

In order for a Keep/Tower/Camp etc to be contestested enemy players need to be either attacking walls/gates with siege or attacking the lord within the time limit.  To get 'Credit' for a defence event you need to 'kill' an enemy player who either used siege to damage the walls/gate or hit the lord.  The idea is to get round waypoints being constantly contested due to people attacking the guards/throwing siege.  But this does lead to the situation, especially in Garrison, where the enemy have gotten in and killed the lord but as the timer has run out the keep will no longer be contested and there will be no more defence events.

At the moment for AN its a damned if they do and damed if they dont.  WIth the previous system waypoints where constantly contested prevented their use but without any actual attack on the keep.  With the current system its rather difficult to get credit for a defence.  Personaly I am in favor of preventing waypoints being contested for hours on end because some thief thinks its funny but somthing more needs be done concerning defence events.  At the very least they should be removed from the WVW weeklies/dailies, along with the jumping puzzles and EotM which arent really WVW, and replaced with somthing else.

[ilMasa.2546]

8 minutes ago, Tom.6032 said:

Personaly I am in favor of preventing waypoints being contested for hours on end because some thief thinks its funny 

See ?! Everywhere you look the problem is always the same: thief.
And the solution has always been one: nerf stealth.

 

[Riba.3271]

11 minutes ago, ilMasa.2546 said:

See ?! Everywhere you look the problem is always the same: thief.

Stealth or thief is not the problem. Minstrel druid or willbender could do same and not die to 2 people chasing them with fast builds. Could probably do same with mesmer using portals but never seen that since I assume mesmer players are all honorable?

Edited September 14 by Riba.3271

[bq pd.2148]

36 minutes ago, Tom.6032 said:

In order for a Keep/Tower/Camp etc to be contestested enemy players need to be either attacking walls/gates with siege or attacking the lord within the time limit. 

that is not quite the entirety of the options.

• hitting a gate, that is already at 98% or below, even with just your weapons will contest the structure. thus the one opponent keeping your stuff in combat is still a thing, they just need to prep the gate with a warclaw quickly - not like anyone would notice that while the structure is not contested yet.
• the lord needs to be in combat, but you do not need to attack the lord. the lord just needs something in range that they want to kill/destroy - does not need to be a player.

strangely enough tho warclaw's siege damage does not contest structures, otherwise we could just pull a wall with it while passing by. then again this in theory means people can at the moment open structures without contesting them, if they bothered.

[Leger.3724]

It is incredibly stupid.

Whoever made these changes to what a contest is or is not, added a second EWP option... it just wasn't thought through.

At this point revert "defense" to killing someone inside or near an objective.

It's not like this is a serious game mode and the game should be discerning about who it rewards. Figure it out for GW3. Reward people for now in GW2.

It's also a punish whenever a daily or weekly wizard's vault is defend 1 or defend 10. Daily there's a chance. Putting in probably ~10 hours this week I'm at 4/10 so far. I'm not getting 6 defenses on Sunday so that's 50 astral acclaim down the drain.

Edited September 14 by Leger.3724

[Tom.6032]

16 hours ago, ilMasa.2546 said:

See ?! Everywhere you look the problem is always the same: thief.
And the solution has always been one: nerf stealth.

 

Stealth on the Theif is a problem and should be addressed, but in fairness they are not the only ones who can do it, any high mobility class could in the past contest by throwing siege and was unlikley to be caught and killed.

16 hours ago, bq pd.2148 said:

that is not quite the entirety of the options.

• hitting a gate, that is already at 98% or below, even with just your weapons will contest the structure. thus the one opponent keeping your stuff in combat is still a thing, they just need to prep the gate with a warclaw quickly - not like anyone would notice that while the structure is not contested yet.
• the lord needs to be in combat, but you do not need to attack the lord. the lord just needs something in range that they want to kill/destroy - does not need to be a player.

strangely enough tho warclaw's siege damage does not contest structures, otherwise we could just pull a wall with it while passing by. then again this in theory means people can at the moment open structures without contesting them, if they bothered.

Was not aware you could contest with weapons, though it makes sense as you can, with a lot of time, take the gate down.  But I think it still leaves the issue that to get credit for defence you need to kill the player that did the damage.  In case when thirty enemies are trying to cap the circle after the lord is dead they should be the priority not some random guy who ran back and is attacking a gate.  And this is what should be rewarded.

 

16 hours ago, Leger.3724 said:

It is incredibly stupid.

Whoever made these changes to what a contest is or is not, added a second EWP option... it just wasn't thought through.

At this point revert "defense" to killing someone inside or near an objective.

It's not like this is a serious game mode and the game should be discerning about who it rewards. Figure it out for GW3. Reward people for now in GW2.

It's also a punish whenever a daily or weekly wizard's vault is defend 1 or defend 10. Daily there's a chance. Putting in probably ~10 hours this week I'm at 4/10 so far. I'm not getting 6 defenses on Sunday so that's 50 astral acclaim down the drain.

Defence events should definatly be removed from the wizards vault until a better system for getting credit is introduced.  At the moment those doing WVW weeklies already suffer with jumping puzzles - which for OS are an invitation to troll players, and more difficult, well more of a hinderance to do the Alpine ones if you are stuck with RBL as home - so you get punished twice.  Then there is the EotM objectives, at this stage I think we can all agree EotM is basically PVE with WVW stats and nothing more.

WvW really does need some changes, any nerfs will cause complaint but I cant see anyone really being upset with weekly/daily defence being removed until a better solution is introduced.   Simple changing it to kill an enemy player within the defence event would suffice and extending the defence event to the range of catas/trebs would encourage players to go out and engage the enemy before they get in.

 

  

[aelflune.8590]

It's the fifth fight in a row I've had defending a keep where I've killed a number of attackers and didn't get credit for defense. My WvW weekly is at 2/3 keep defense and it looks like I won't be getting that last one before the week ends despite a few days of trying.

This triggers me. How could it be so difficult? Yes, they made it more difficult already once upon a time, but it was still manageable given enough opportunities. Now opportunities are hard to come by.

I think they just don't give a kitten.

[ArchonWing.9480]

Would it really be that hard to make it so if you kill someone in the objective's territory, you get credit? There would be no more convoluted  guessing anymore.

Or how about this, make it into a Defense OR wall repair daily. For the weekly, you have to repair different walls.  This way nobody can use the repair to abuse SMC credit (not that it should have mattered to begin with) and we solve this nonsense once and for all

Edited Sunday at 06:50 PM by ArchonWing.9480

[Tom.6032]

2 hours ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

Would it really be that hard to make it so if you kill someone in the objective's territory, you get credit? There would be no more convoluted  guessing anymore.

Would be the easiest and fairiest solution.

2 hours ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

Or how about this, make it into a Defense OR wall repair daily. For the weekly, you have to repair different walls.  This way nobody can use the repair to abuse SMC credit (not that it should have mattered to begin with) and we solve this nonsense once and for all

Problem with using wall/gate repair is it encourages people to waste supply repairing walls that are still under attack.  Might work to replace defence weekly/daily with spend supply regardless of if its on repair or building siege.  Though that would just be more encouragement for people to spam useless blue siege (why its still a thing I don't know).

Ultimately the first option is the best, encourages defence but you still have to put a little work in to get it.

[ArchonWing.9480]

2 hours ago, Tom.6032 said:

Problem with using wall/gate repair is it encourages people to waste supply repairing walls that are still under attack. 

Just make it so only a single wall repair completes the daily so there is no need to waste supply. The problem with the old system was you could farm it indefinitely.

And at this state in this game, people not bothering to repair is a far bigger problem.

Edited Sunday at 11:07 PM by ArchonWing.9480

[Kulvar.1239]

5 hours ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

Would it really be that hard to make it so if you kill someone in the objective's territory, you get credit? There would be no more convoluted  guessing anymore.

Or how about this, make it into a Defense OR wall repair daily. For the weekly, you have to repair different walls.  This way nobody can use the repair to abuse SMC credit (not that it should have mattered to begin with) and we solve this nonsense once and for all

Would be nice if the "defend 3 forts" became "defend 3 forts or castles" too. Sometimes I never defend any fort but I defend SMC several times.

[ilMasa.2546]

Now, to give a serious answer to the topic.
Imo the point is that devs want to treat WvW like they treat open world pve.
I can't say if this is due to the fact that those who work at WVW are kinda incompetent with PVP or if they generally work on PVE and find themselves doing PVP stuff too.(cos they have to)

But if we look at the changes made in WvW over the last 7-8 years it's the only reason that comes to mind.
They should have understood certain things back in the day when they tried to push spvp as an Esport and it failed miserably because everyone was running bunker builds and no one wanted to see a duel that lasted 30 minutes... but then why do they keep pushing for this boonball, which imo works just like bunkers but zerg edition?

Or do we want to talk about desert BL? I don't remember that the community asked arenanet for a map full of pve mechanics, lords with pve raid mechanics and a labyrinthine navigation of the map. And yet that's what they did.

The gameplay we have today is the same as the Karma Train days on EOTM. "Member"when zergs  ignored each other to farm the map in a circle(almost by mutual agreement) ?.

There were once guilds that specialized in fortifying towers and castles, and sieges took time.Gone
Today it takes a blob seconds to break through a wall and just as many seconds to clear defensive sieges. So what's the point of spending time and resources setting up defensive sieges when you can easily tank everything because you have crazy sustain?

Then they added the gliders (and most people were against it), because obviously they had to sell the skins to the pvpers but they also had to make morphological changes for example in EBG for this addition.
Then they added mounts (people didn't want them), because again they had to sell the skins to the pvpers. But then those who didn't have them felt heavily penalized and warclaws were nerfed to the ground. Couldn't they have thought of it before?

Imo they removed what was the buildup that led to the siege mechanic (and obviously everything that came from it) to speed everything up by normalizing the karma train and making it meta.

But not only that: every single expansion has introduced new mechanics, the problem is that many others have not been updated to keep up.
A clear example are mortars: 8 or 9 years ago they were fine, because 8 or 9 years ago you could spend 10 seconds turning it in the direction of an offensive trebuchet and spend another minute guessing the distance and the right power.

Today who builds a trebuchet outside the walls? Nobody.(maybe some roamers?just for the sake of being really annoying?)
Today a commander arrives with his zerg, throws 4 catapults and by the time you turn the mortar the wall is already gone.

It's a s***show lol

Edited Monday at 04:03 PM by ilMasa.2546

[Lucy.3728]

On 9/14/2024 at 6:22 PM, aelflune.8590 said:

Defense events are now extremely stupid

Now? NOW?

It's been stupid since they removed repairing walls out of the def event variables without adding something else instead (like destroying siege, for a start) or without increasing range of "event". When siege and players are out of the event range, it won't count as defense either no matter if you destroyed their mountain of trebs and their zerg (+repaired t3 walls afterwards).

Also it's been complained about and made fun of since then too and you know what they did?

They have made it even worse.

Edited Monday at 07:41 PM by Lucy.3728

[Tom.6032]

2 hours ago, Lucy.3728 said:

Now? NOW?

It's been stupid since they removed repairing walls out of the def event variables without adding something else instead (like destroying siege, for a start) or without increasing range of "event". When siege and players are out of the event range, it won't count as defense either no matter if you destroyed their mountain of trebs and their zerg (+repaired t3 walls afterwards).

Also it's been complained about and made fun of since then too and you know what they did?

They have made it even worse.

I am thinking that AN really does not want anyone to defend anything, yet we are given Weekly/Daily defender and Defender achievements (at the same level as capturing keeps/towers) so it kind of a confused mess.

While its great they have added more rewards for WVW they do tend to create a rather a perverse incentive, since Im unlikly to get credit for defending a tower I might as well let it flip and recap.  Since I am unlikly to get credit for defending a keep I might as well hunt dollies/flip camps.  AN needs to either increase the reward for defending or make it easier to get.  But then again there are alot of problems with WvW which need to be addressed.

[Spiral.3724]

100% agree.

They changed defense credit a while back and it's one of my biggest frustrations, especially when I have it as a Wiz Vault weekly. 

They need to change the requirements so that repairing walls and killing enemy siege gives credit. Those are both part of actively defending an objective.

[aelflune.8590]

On 9/17/2024 at 3:39 AM, Lucy.3728 said:

Now? NOW?

It's been stupid since they removed repairing walls out of the def event variables without adding something else instead (like destroying siege, for a start) or without increasing range of "event". When siege and players are out of the event range, it won't count as defense either no matter if you destroyed their mountain of trebs and their zerg (+repaired t3 walls afterwards).

Also it's been complained about and made fun of since then too and you know what they did?

They have made it even worse.

I'm talking about the latest change. Yeah, it was hard after they took away credit for repairing walls, but it was doable. Now it's just an impossible piece of crap unless you're kitten lucky or you have all day to waste.