If warrior's spear was bloated, what's guard's spear? 💀

[WingSwipe.3084]

17 hours ago, Kuya.6495 said:

Isn't baiting their damage while they run out of gas the definition of outplaying them?

A Willbender can mess up 5 times for every 1 its target can.

If you slightly missplay your defensives your down at least 1/2 of your health, 1/4 on light professions, in the first seconds of the fight. I'll remind everyone that the average reaction time for a human is 0,2 seconds, with server latency that can go up to 0,5 seconds. You cant mess that first second up against a decent Willbender.

Willbender engage combos are also knock you down, so if you fail the pinpoint stability check on top of defensives you die.

You cant outrun one either, so kiting isnt an option, average willbender has swiftness, ports, dashes and pulls.

Edited Wednesday at 11:40 AM by WingSwipe.3084

[Supernova Starr.2069]

2 hours ago, WingSwipe.3084 said:

f you slightly missplay your defensives your down at least 1/2 of your health, 1/4 on light professions

Imagine not being punished by the consequences of your bad actions in competitive mode

[Supernova Starr.2069]

As usual the cry out for guardian nerfs threads is top tier comedy, keep up the good work

[WingSwipe.3084]

1 hour ago, Supernova Starr.2069 said:

Imagine not being punished by the consequences of your bad actions in competitive mode

Im immune to your gaslighting Guard-nerd.

"Slightly" in this situation means 1-2 seconds of missplay. Enough as to where human reaction time and latency accounts for half of that time.

1 hour ago, Supernova Starr.2069 said:

As usual the cry out for guardian nerfs threads is top tier comedy, keep up the good work

Its fine, Guard wont get nerfs anyway. You have the devs in your corner to instantly buff, patch and update QOL for any of your needs.

Edited Wednesday at 01:22 PM by WingSwipe.3084
A bit too much agression, toned it down.

[Captain Crapface.7528]

1 hour ago, Supernova Starr.2069 said:

As usual the cry out for guardian nerfs threads is top tier comedy, keep up the good work

I guess you also support reverting warrior's spear to pre-nerf state.

Or is only blue class allowed to be overpowered?

[Kuya.6495]

4 hours ago, Captain Crapface.7528 said:

is it your first day off reddit or your first interaction with a human at all?

You know we tend to flavour our speech due to this odd quirk we have called "personality".

Is spreading misinformation part of your personality too?

[Captain Crapface.7528]

1 hour ago, Supernova Starr.2069 said:

Imagine not being punished by the consequences of your bad actions in competitive mode

Also known as Playing Guardian

[Captain Crapface.7528]

2 minutes ago, Kuya.6495 said:

Is spreading misinformation part of your personality too?

Yes, in fact I'm logging onto forums every day to tell people that guardian is too week.

[Kuya.6495]

2 minutes ago, Captain Crapface.7528 said:

Yes, in fact I'm logging onto forums every day to tell people that guardian is too week.

I mean I guess they are weak if they run what you suggested they run.

[WingSwipe.3084]

1 minute ago, Kuya.6495 said:

I mean I guess they are weak if they run what you suggested they run.

Solid display of  "moving the goal posts" and "taking a statement out of context".

Very "Guardian" of you.

[Captain Crapface.7528]

1 minute ago, Kuya.6495 said:

I mean I guess they are weak if they run what you suggested they run.

You mean if they are running [Shelter] and [Reversal of Fortune] (two skills i mentioned) at the same time? Is this what you assume, I'm suggesting Willy mains run?

Both of thease skills go into the same slot, so that's literally impossible.

I provided examples, to highlight a general trend and everyone with a brain understands that practicall application is more complex than sub-300 words forum post.

I don't know why you try to play stupid, but you at least do it convincingly, so props for that.

[Kuya.6495]

8 minutes ago, Captain Crapface.7528 said:

You mean if they are running [Shelter] and [Reversal of Fortune] (two skills i mentioned) at the same time? Is this what you assume, I'm suggesting Willy mains run?

Both of thease skills go into the same slot, so that's literally impossible.

I provided examples, to highlight a general trend and everyone with a brain understands that practicall application is more complex than sub-300 words forum post.

I don't know why you try to play stupid, but you at least do it convincingly, so props for that.

I think you mentioning sanctuary, shelter and signet of Judgement shows a profound lack of understanding of the builds you are facing and therefore it makes sense why you think something you don't understand is OP.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

4 hours ago, WingSwipe.3084 said:

A Willbender can mess up 5 times for every 1 its target can.

Willbenders engage skills also blind the target so they can force defensive posture from the opponent because they win the engage unless they drop on someone who has specifically expected them with resistance.

Last I checked forcing anyone to play defensively was nerf territory, but I enjoy fighting willbenders so I'll keep that to my chest.  🫢

[Supernova Starr.2069]

8 minutes ago, Kuya.6495 said:

I think you mentioning sanctuary, shelter and signet of Judgement shows a profound lack of understanding of the builds you are facing and therefore it makes sense why you think something you don't understand is OP.

Reason why 90% of these posts aren't worth to reply to, they lack understanding of fundamentals, if they did, they wouldn't be here asking for willy and guard spear nerfs

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

Just now, Supernova Starr.2069 said:

Reason why 90% of these posts aren't worth to reply to, they lack understanding of fundamentals, if they did, they wouldn't be here asking for willy and guard spear nerfs

Would you like me to take a crack at parsing why people are mad at this? I promise I'll use the correct skills. 

[Supernova Starr.2069]

Just now, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Would you like me to take a crack at parsing why people are mad at this? I promise I'll use the correct skills. 

Please do, it would show these people their skill issue, not to mention it wouldn't change the fact that above p1 willy is mid at best, so go on

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

34 minutes ago, Supernova Starr.2069 said:

Please do, it would show these people their skill issue, not to mention it wouldn't change the fact that above p1 willy is mid at best, so go on

Alright so:

The main problem here is, as a preface, not the performance of the willbender but the context surrounding how it functions. 

If you have enough movement skills, or enough direct mitigation, you can kill willbenders on most classes. Most their damaging strikes are avoidable up front, unless you fail to evade an equally obvious setup, like advancing strike. Their utilities are usually just stunbreaks, occasionally whirling light; and their heal skills are obvious (shelter blocks. Don't hit it. )

The heart of the discontent here is that willbenders can force deference. Because of how symbol of blades, leap of faith, crashing courage, some niche skills like Advance! and etc work, often times willbenders by nature of doing their rotation *force* people to avoid them.  You can't interrupt them because you're blinded, may hit aegis and whatnot.  You have to let them faceroll. Some classes can't really afford that based on the nature of their skills (and some classes have their skills changed to be less effective at stopping this, but I'll whine about spear swipe later.)

Their damaging skills, while obvious, are not elaboratively so. They exist in a cloud of behavioral pattern that dont translate directly into skill animation.  You need to watch for advancing strike to not eat whirling light or solar storm. You need to know what ports the guard has on hand so you don't instantly eat executioners calling. If you're watching the ACTIONS of the willbender fighting them is hard.  If you know HOW they will act and what they have access to and when they may think to use said things, fighting the willbender becomes a matter of parrying them until they get tired out, because of that deference thing they have going on. 

Plus if you do all that they can tell the whole game "time out", reset their skills and force you to do the loop again.

Tldr they're annoying, can force defense. Other things that force defence get axed because they force defence, willbender seems to be immune to this, balance the game properly - it should be no more a class's theme that they always have the first turn as it should be that they never do and just have to react until someone runs out of buttons, etc. Its a guessing game, like thief matchups but they can't run away as fast in exchange for overwhelming opener presence.

Its definitely not mid. I like how it is designed.  Its what I expect most glass classes to be, plus or minus a little of the defenses that run at the same time as their attacking either by design or by affording the possibility. Unfortunately the rest of the game is balanced away from that metric.

This balance team doesnt seem to be very aware of okizeme, and actively destroys it when it surfaces obviously, so while I enjoy fighting them, willbenders are a bit of an anomaly. Hopefully the way this goes is that the players decide that kind of aggression is good in moderation and advocate for that design being applied elsewhere.

Edited Wednesday at 02:50 PM by Azure The Heartless.3261
Its good but if you're going to allow it to exist balance the rest of the kitten game like that

[Kuya.6495]

31 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Would you like me to take a crack at parsing why people are mad at this? I promise I'll use the correct skills. 

It would be nice to hear a coherent perspective on why spear or willbender is overturned. So please do!

Edited Wednesday at 02:44 PM by Kuya.6495

[Captain Crapface.7528]

40 minutes ago, Kuya.6495 said:

I think you mentioning sanctuary, shelter and signet of Judgement shows a profound lack of understanding of the builds you are facing and therefore it makes sense why you think something you don't understand is OP.

All i did, is list some examples of utility that exists.

It'd show a profound lack of understanding, if I listed of something that doesn't exist.

But please continuue berrateing people based on your, far fetched assumptions. It really helps guard mains not look like pricks. (i used sarcasm, pointing that out just to make sure you don't misconstrue that as well)

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

41 minutes ago, Supernova Starr.2069 said:

Reason why 90% of these posts aren't worth to reply to, they lack understanding of fundamentals, if they did, they wouldn't be here asking for willy and guard spear nerfs

*Glares in warrior*

You don't say...

[Captain Crapface.7528]

41 minutes ago, Supernova Starr.2069 said:

Reason why 90% of these posts aren't worth to reply to, they lack understanding of fundamentals, if they did, they wouldn't be here asking for willy and guard spear nerfs

Imagine what we were all thinking, when legion of guard mains stormed the forum to tell people that the problem with warrior is week old spear instead of the only speck that sees tournament play since january.

Now its your turn to loose all faith in humanity 🙂

[Kuya.6495]

14 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Alright so:

The main problem here is, as a preface, not the performance of the willbender but the context surrounding how it functions. 

If you have enough movement skills, or enough direct mitigation, you can kill willbenders on most classes. Most their damaging strikes are avoidable up front, unless you fail to evade an equally obvious setup, like advancing strike. Their utilities are usually just stunbreaks, occasionally whirling light; and their heal skills are obvious (shelter blocks. Don't hit it. )

The heart of the discontent here is that willbenders can force deference. Because of how symbol of blades, leap of faith, crashing courage, some niche skills like Advance! and etc work, often times willbenders by nature of doing their rotation *force* people to avoid them.  You can't interrupt them because you're blinded, may hit aegis and whatnot.  You have to let them faceroll. Some classes can't really afford that based on the nature of their skills (and some classes have their skills changed to be less effective at stopping this, but I'll whine about spear swipe later.)

Their damaging skills, while obvious, are not elaboratively so. They exist in a cloud of behavioral pattern that dont translate directly into skill animation.  You need to watch for advancing strike to not eat whirling light or solar storm. You need to know what ports the guard has on hand so you don't instantly eat executioners calling. If you're watching the ACTIONS of the willbender fighting them is hard.  If you know HOW they will act and what they have access to and when they may think to use said things, fighting the willbender becomes a matter of parrying them until they get tired or, because of that deference thing they have going on. 

 

Tldr they're annoying, can force defense. Other things that force defence get axed because they force defence, willbender seems to be immune to this, balance the game properly - it should be no more a class's theme that they always have the first turn as it should be that they never do and just have to react until someone runs out of buttons, etc.

Its definitely not mid. Its what I expect most glass classes to be, plus or minus a little of the defenses that run at the same time as their attacking either by design or by affording the possibility. Unfortunately the rest of the game is balanced away from that metric.

This balance team doesnt seem to be very aware of okizeme, and actively destroys it when it surfaces obviously, so while I enjoy fighting them, willbenders are a bit of an anomaly. Hopefully the way this goes is that the players decide that kind of aggression is good in moderation and advocate for that design being applied elsewhere.

That's fair. If I understood you correctly you're saying it isn't intuitively easy to deal with willbenders because they don't telegraph their burst skills well and their burst skills come with their own defensive utility that don't allow you to trade blows while they're on the offensive. I appreciate the intelligent post on what makes willbender annoying to fight!

I think you already said this in another thread so this isn't a reply to you but the way willbender works doesn't sound different to how it's hard to see the burst coming from either mesmer or thief, the other two classes with a similar playstyle. And while fighting willbenders is annoying, it doesn't sound like this has anything to do with Guard spear specifically. 

Edited Wednesday at 02:58 PM by Kuya.6495

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

6 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

*Glares in warrior*

You don't say...

Its so wild to me that the very same analysis of what you think might happen in situation x would prevent the balance carousel, but because people are so kitten bad at object permanence they keep fueling it. 

Oh, i didn't dodge this obvious skill, it killed me.  Guess i should whine on the forums for it to be destroyed. It got destroyed. What do you MEAN people want to see my obvious skill destroyed because they didn't dodge it!

I've never seen a skill issue so egregious it hurts the kitten metagame repeatedly, it's like sideshow bob walking into a rake 🤣🤣 these forums are insane I love y'all 

Edited Wednesday at 03:01 PM by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

5 minutes ago, Kuya.6495 said:

That's fair. If I understood you correctly you're saying it isn't intuitively easy to deal with willbenders because they don't telegraph their burst skills well and their burst skills come with their own defensive utility that don't allow you to trade blows while they're on the offensive. I appreciate the intelligent post on what makes willbender annoying to fight!

I think you already said this in another thread so this isn't a reply to you but the way willbender works doesn't sound different to how it's hard to see the burst coming from either mesmer or thief, the other two classes with a similar playstyle.

You almost understand why they're mad. You're so close

Quote

And while fighting willbenders is annoying, it doesn't sound like this has anything to do with Guard spear specifically. 

SO CLOSE

Edited Wednesday at 03:02 PM by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

@Kuya.6495

Quote

 it isn't intuitively easy to deal with willbenders because they don't telegraph their burst skills well and their burst skills come with their own defensive utility that don't allow you to trade blows while they're on the offensive.

Yes.

Now imagine if in that sphere, skills that DID telegraph and WERE intuitive to avoid got nuked and youd see the impending problem.