Willbender Mesmer DPS output really needs to be taken care of and Necro just needs full class nerfing

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

^ Thread title

Look at how amazingly diverse the meta is right now -> PvP Builds - MetaBattle Guild Wars 2 Builds

Willbender should be in that list.

Needs fixing so the game makes sense again. Thanks

Edited Tuesday at 01:34 AM by Trevor Boyer.6524

[lemonsoda.5967]

Would be nice to be rid of the ego meta riding noskillbenders and invuln spamming mesmers

[Susi Musi.2964]

Nha, let that class have its day with perma invul and spear 2 that deals 7.5 k dmg in aoe and even can be resetted with spear 5.
This is fine.

[Provocative.3561]

Bro hasn’t seen theif dps? Warriors lockdown kite dps?  Meanwhile necro exists. Scrapper and holo says hello. And rev would like a word. 

[Hotride.2187]

1 hour ago, Susi Musi.2964 said:

Nha, let that class have its day with perma invul and spear 2 that deals 7.5 k dmg in aoe and even can be resetted with spear 5.
This is fine.

You didn't mind the gap, clearly...

[Mizu Misa.8730]

It's kitten that the devs keep adding hard cc to every fregging weapon they release.

[MercurialKuroSludge.8974]

4 hours ago, Susi Musi.2964 said:

Nha, let that class have its day with perma invul and spear 2 that deals 7.5 k dmg in aoe and even can be resetted with spear 5.
This is fine.

kitten, Solar Storm so op that the system cant even track how much it does anymore, the nerfs clearly didnt happen!

[WingSwipe.3084]

If Skillbenders and Memesers want to keep this level of damage output, the following needs to be applied.

Mesmers need:

• Blur spam removed.
• Blind spam removed.
• Weakness application reduced.

Willbenders need:

• Removed Stability spam.
• Remove blind spam.
• Reduced weakness application.
• General duration decrease of their boon upkeep.
• Dramatic lowering of aegis application.
• Spear needs to give drastically less boons/healing and a lowered duration of conditions applied. Gleaming Disc alone gives 10s of Fury+Might and blinks along with giving the Illuminated empowerment. This is one ability with a 12 second CD, this is near permanent Fury from a weapon skill.

 

[kranox.8965]

23 minutes ago, WingSwipe.3084 said:

If Skillbenders and Memesers want to keep this level of damage output, the following needs to be applied.

Mesmers need:

• Blur spam removed.
• Blind spam removed.
• Weakness application reduced.

Willbenders need:

• Removed Stability spam.
• Remove blind spam.
• Reduced weakness application.
• General duration decrease of their boon upkeep.
• Dramatic lowering of aegis application.
• Spear needs to give drastically less boons/healing and a lowered duration of conditions applied. Gleaming Disc alone gives 10s of Fury+Might and blinks along with giving the Illuminated empowerment. This is one ability with a 12 second CD, this is near permanent Fury from a weapon skill.

 

Concerning willbender you are clearly not aware how it works and why.

Under normal circumstances it has 1 active aegis from F3 and that's it.

They also get forced into 2 trait lines aside the espec to have both stab and retaliation uptime.

Blind on the meta willbender is on 3 skills on 1 only of illuminated. And 1 of them is only again cause of a trait.

Stability isn't spammable it only F3 initially due to trait and after that during the 6s of buff time if they get enough hits in.

Concerning spear 3 if you wanted to nerf it you get lower the secondary hit base DMG but have it do the same it has now. Additionally you could limit the might application to connecting the first it, making it not worse but more important to hit the first part of the skill first and not just the delayed part as it is now.

 

Overall your argument is pretty poor die to a lack of understanding and complaining like a kid that got its candy stolen.

If you want something changed. Atleast take the 3 minutes to provide a way to approach the issue. Otherwise your input has little value for the devs.

 

 

[WingSwipe.3084]

37 minutes ago, kranox.8965 said:

Concerning willbender you are clearly not aware how it works and why.

Under normal circumstances it has 1 active aegis from F3 and that's it.

They also get forced into 2 trait lines aside the espec to have both stab and retaliation uptime.

Blind on the meta willbender is on 3 skills on 1 only of illuminated. And 1 of them is only again cause of a trait.

Stability isn't spammable it only F3 initially due to trait and after that during the 6s of buff time if they get enough hits in.

Concerning spear 3 if you wanted to nerf it you get lower the secondary hit base DMG but have it do the same it has now. Additionally you could limit the might application to connecting the first it, making it not worse but more important to hit the first part of the skill first and not just the delayed part as it is now.

 

Overall your argument is pretty poor die to a lack of understanding and complaining like a kid that got its candy stolen.

If you want something changed. Atleast take the 3 minutes to provide a way to approach the issue. Otherwise your input has little value for the devs.

I regularly see engage combos that create 6+ stacks of stability every day in sPvP, other people I speak to and play with see the same thing. Im taking these statements from observed reality and experiences me and others have had in the current PvP climate.

The Radiance traitline directly synergizes with Willbender and grants blind when you activate F1 with a light aura which is spammable and can be reset with Renewed Focus.

The Virtue traitline directly synergizes with the Radiance traitline and Willbender by proxy to give 40% more crit passively in PvP from just using F1, this also synergizes harder by giving Willbender absolution for free when struck if you still have the light aura, which again gives more free crit.

As for spear, I dont mind that it does damage. Its when it starts healing, giving boons, cleansing, CC:ing, etc... that we start to have issues. Warrior spear only did ranged damage and evaded, that was too much and it got a 40% damage nerf on its main skills and later got the evade removed too, yet when guardian spear does everything and only gets one nerf, that's kitten.

I have deep dived into builds, traits and synergies regarding Willbender to find ways to counter it, and the more I read the more appalling it gets.

If your going to walk up and insult me over my lack of feedback, even when I give specific examples of a skill thats overloaded, that shows you either didnt read what I wrote or your just trying to discredit an actual issue.

And if your trying to discredit an actual issue, that usually means you are benefiting from said issue.

 

[lol.9027]

Obviously there ist something wrong with mesmer. In the final of the last 3v3 tournament, 5 out of 6 players were mesmers. Thats a pretty clear indication something isnt quite right. Since mesmer wasnt a big issue before spear, the reasonable thing to do here is probably nerfing spear. Seems pretty straight forwoard.

For Willbender i think its not quite as obvious. The most obvious problem was solar storm. But they already cut the dmg in half with the latest patch. Also, willbender has next to no CC (unless playing hammer, which nobody does) therefore its one of the easiest classes to avoid. On top of that willbender runs out of steam pretty fast. They hit very hard, very fast and they can enter a fight with a lot of boons. But if you weather the storm its over pretty fast and you can start counter attacking. By no means are willbenders easy prey but the feeling of getting overwhelmed by them is mostly a skill issue since their dmg is pretty easy to avoid compared to other classes.

[Shinra.8564]

13 minutes ago, lol.9027 said:

Obviously there ist something wrong with mesmer. In the final of the last 3v3 tournament, 5 out of 6 players were mesmers. Thats a pretty clear indication something isnt quite right. Since mesmer wasnt a big issue before spear, the reasonable thing to do here is probably nerfing spear. Seems pretty straight forwoard.

For Willbender i think its not quite as obvious. The most obvious problem was solar storm. But they already cut the dmg in half with the latest patch. Also, willbender has next to no CC (unless playing hammer, which nobody does) therefore its one of the easiest classes to avoid. On top of that willbender runs out of steam pretty fast. They hit very hard, very fast and they can enter a fight with a lot of boons. But if you weather the storm its over pretty fast and you can start counter attacking. By no means are willbenders easy prey but the feeling of getting overwhelmed by them is mostly a skill issue since their dmg is pretty easy to avoid compared to other classes.

I see willbenders with hammer all the time. Also, Solar Storm was only a problem when they didn't dodge. Spear just gives a ton of extremely powerful boons while also putting out lots of dmg. Solar Storm is still going to do 6k+ when paired with the spear5 stun and JI.

Identically, Mesmer burst is within 2 seconds, and if you survive the burst you're basically fine — most run sword/shield or sword/torch in offhand which does little dmg.

Edited Sunday at 09:30 PM by Shinra.8564

[Shinra.8564]

5 hours ago, kranox.8965 said:

Concerning willbender you are clearly not aware how it works and why.

Under normal circumstances it has 1 active aegis from F3 and that's it.

They also get forced into 2 trait lines aside the espec to have both stab and retaliation uptime.

Blind on the meta willbender is on 3 skills on 1 only of illuminated. And 1 of them is only again cause of a trait.

Stability isn't spammable it only F3 initially due to trait and after that during the 6s of buff time if they get enough hits in.

Concerning spear 3 if you wanted to nerf it you get lower the secondary hit base DMG but have it do the same it has now. Additionally you could limit the might application to connecting the first it, making it not worse but more important to hit the first part of the skill first and not just the delayed part as it is now.

 

Overall your argument is pretty poor die to a lack of understanding and complaining like a kid that got its candy stolen.

If you want something changed. Atleast take the 3 minutes to provide a way to approach the issue. Otherwise your input has little value for the devs.

 

 

The active aegis from willbender f3 pops Everytime they hit 6 attacks. So a good willbender is going to get 3+ aegis procs plus the initial from f3.

[lol.9027]

53 minutes ago, Shinra.8564 said:

I see willbenders with hammer all the time. Also, Solar Storm was only a problem when they didn't dodge. Spear just gives a ton of extremely powerful boons while also putting out lots of dmg. Solar Storm is still going to do 6k+ when paired with the spear5 stun and JI.

Identically, Mesmer burst is within 2 seconds, and if you survive the burst you're basically fine — most run sword/shield or sword/torch in offhand which does little dmg.

I mean, i think no one is arguing that guardian spear wasnt op on release. But since they basically halfed the dmg of its only potent dmg ability its way behind greatsword in terms of dmg now. And willbender has next to no set up to land that dmg. With the usual sword/sword + spear, there is one hard CC on spear 5 and thats it. Despite the high dmg willbender is able to do, its still one of the easiest classes to dodge/avoid. Again, i am not saying willbender is weak. Its definitely one of the stronger classes right now. But its not the huge problem people make it out to be.

Edited Sunday at 10:22 PM by lol.9027

[Provocative.3561]

1 hour ago, lol.9027 said:

Obviously there ist something wrong with mesmer. In the final of the last 3v3 tournament, 5 out of 6 players were mesmers. Thats a pretty clear indication something isnt quite right. Since mesmer wasnt a big issue before spear, the reasonable thing to do here is probably nerfing spear. Seems pretty straight forwoard.

For Willbender i think its not quite as obvious. The most obvious problem was solar storm. But they already cut the dmg in half with the latest patch. Also, willbender has next to no CC (unless playing hammer, which nobody does) therefore its one of the easiest classes to avoid. On top of that willbender runs out of steam pretty fast. They hit very hard, very fast and they can enter a fight with a lot of boons. But if you weather the storm its over pretty fast and you can start counter attacking. By no means are willbenders easy prey but the feeling of getting overwhelmed by them is mostly a skill issue since their dmg is pretty easy to avoid compared to other classes.

If by this logic then, we would be taking a look at how tank amulets ruined ToL. It came down to the finals and one team ran zerker amulets in the finals in hopes of out damaging the competition.. albeit this should in theory work, BUT, here comes the but, but the enemy were running pure tank runes/amulets if I’m not mistaken 4 out of 5 players and left the enemy team confined to the mercy of the tank team struggling to hold or defend home which ultimately resulted in a loss. Again tank amulets are a thing and there are ways to combat spec’s who are focused primarily on damage. And the average player fails time and time again to see through the veil to opt into a build that counteracts what’s being complained about or even plays a build that breaks even. So here we are. If spear were to made on skill based valuable changes my recommendations as a mesmer main would be as follows. 

•Spear 5: reduce the flat damage and increase the scaling to compensate power builds. (Truthfully should be done in totality of all classes to separate off tank abuse and skillful power play)

 • no longer allow spear 2 to reset off of spear 5. That would stop the power creep. Instead lower the cooldown to compensate. 

*But by this logic, there are a number of abilities I could literally list from so many classes and elites that do this kind of damage in one ability. And mesmer has and still to this day doesn’t have a single ability that equates to a weapon skill that does 7k raw dmg. Unless it’s a mind wrack. But a weapon skill? I could list off: thief ref ranger Engi ele necro etc they all have many weapon abilities with 7k plus dmg weapon skill and yet we let it fly because?*

lastly the more we complain about damage and it’s raw numbers, a simple reminder these numbers do not reflect these previously aforementioned when fighting tank specs. And the more we reduce raw numbers it becomes increasingly difficult to combat tank specs. Forcing stale and unskilled gameplay in the sense of dodging and blocking abilities becomes null and void if I can tank a 10k combo and only receive 4.5k dmg. See the issue? 

 

Edited Sunday at 10:44 PM by Provocative.3561
Spelling op pls nerf

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

What specs and builds?

[Supernova Starr.2069]

22 hours ago, kranox.8965 said:

Concerning willbender you are clearly not aware how it works and why.

Most of the usual suspects flooding WB threads don't xd

[Flowki.7194]

The few obvious spear specs are clearly superior to either other specs, or within that classes spec options. At this point, can't we just admit Gw2 meta is currently pay to win? Unless you play reaper, I guess.

Edited Monday at 03:28 PM by Flowki.7194

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

Friendly reminder about how botched the dynamic is.

Check out the incredibly diverse listing of meta - PvP Builds - MetaBattle Guild Wars 2 Builds

Go ahead and add Willbender into that.

Some actual adequate fixing would be great to see.

 

[Myror.7521]

I think the Main issue with Willbender rn is....... the dmg it does while been passive safed by blinds/ Aegis/ ports and Mobility. First of all get rid of the dps power creep by nerfing the relic of the stormsinger. This relic let Willbender do even more dmg on an allready dmg heavy build. Then maybe you want to dmg Nerf one or two weapon skills so not every single weapon skill is an "you now half Life" Button. I would not touch its survival skills cause while they are good ^^ they also have fairly high cooldowns

[Hotride.2187]

As far as mesmer goes, every day I'm just happy I don't have to fight condi staff mirage.

[WingSwipe.3084]

6 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Friendly reminder about how botched the dynamic is.

Check out the incredibly diverse listing of meta - PvP Builds - MetaBattle Guild Wars 2 Builds

Go ahead and add Willbender into that.

Some actual adequate fixing would be great to see.

Wow, SPB dropped to the same rank as Condi Zerker in their opinion.

This timeline is weird.

[Hotride.2187]

2 hours ago, WingSwipe.3084 said:

Wow, SPB dropped to the same rank as Condi Zerker in their opinion.

This timeline is weird.

I've fought only a few good condi zerkers, but when someone actually good pilots it, its very dangerous. The condi is very spiky too, so cleansing doesn't necessary help you that much. And goes without saying, its tanky. If whoever you are fighting does jumping puzzles... good luck.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

5 hours ago, WingSwipe.3084 said:

Wow, SPB dropped to the same rank as Condi Zerker in their opinion.

This timeline is weird.

It's still very strong, it's just manageable to deal with now. It's where it should be in my opinion.

Willbender/Mesmer/Necro on the other hand, can be summed up like this:

1. Willbender - Too much damage for how sticky it is, and too much blind/aegis/stab for those offensive strengths. I'm in favor of just lowering its dps output. The problem occurred when spear was introduced, which the mechanics made its damage flow too consistent to where it allows zero breathing room while engaging it.
2. Mesmers - Pretty much same deal. The implementation of its spear made its dps output too consistent with too much aoe to where there isn't enough breathing room when engaging the avalanche of oneshots coming at you. This paired with its amount of iframes & other defenses that allow it to attack while invulning, is just too much.
3. Necros - It isn't just Balanced Reaper, it's also Harbinger builds. These are so over-tuned for what they are, it's difficult to even narrow down specifically what the problem is because everything on Necro is loaded currently, all aspects of it. In an ultra dps meta its somehow tanky. It is capable of very high damage both power and condi, usually being a hybrid. They have strangely high mobility at this point. Way too much stability for how tanky they are, their mobility, and how they now are effectively cross-class Necro/Rangers with most attacks being ranged at this point. They are definitely officially just shoving out way too much ultra cc. Everything Necro does is a huge aoe cc that goes through walls & floors that has way too large of a radius, and most of those CCs are ranged. The unblockable effects are also getting to be too good the higher dps rises in the intra-class dynamic. Necros at this point are big fat attribute monsters that bully everything. Having bloated attributes like this is way too much considering how strong they've become mechanically over the years.

Bit of foresight on what's been happening to our game:

Look, some things begin to greatly, exponentially even, rise in value the higher dps becomes within the intra-class dynamic. These skills don't even need direct buffs but rather they intrinsically just rise in value because of how the game dynamic changes when dps becomes very high. These are skills like Defiant Stance, Mesmer iframes or IH which allows attacking while invulning, or long CCs like Chilled To The Bone.

I'll use an extreme example here to show the ultimate destination of maximum dps. Imagine a meta where even auto attacks were oneshotting people. Someone is on a class that has to either attack frame or defense frame, but it can't do both at once. That person is fighting a Mesmer who has 1s of invuln frame which allows the Mesmer to attack while invuling at same time. All the Mesmer has to do is wait till he sees an attack frame and then use his 1s invuln while being able to spam auto during the invuln and the Mesmer will win every time. Even if the person stows or cancels and goes into a defensive animation, it won't matter, because with how this game works, all the Mesmer has to do is continue spamming the auto that is a oneshot, and when the person is out of defensive CDs and tries to attack again, he's going down anyway. The only way the person can deal with this 1s of invuln is through some real monkey business, LOSing around corners, retreating constantly, being as sporadic as possible, and hoping that when he throws a blind attack, it will be in between Mesmer attack frames and actually land the hit. You see the problem here? This isn't thoughtful skillful counterplay. That's a Mesmer being so threatening to other classes due to the 1s invuln frame, that other classes have no choice but to monkey randomly during full kite retreats and hope that the Mesmer himself messes up. It isn't even that the player is thoughtfully engaging the Mesmer with good choices, but rather he has to roll around and hope the Mesmer messes up, because that's the only way to deal with that 1s invuln in a meta where even a single auto is a oneshot.

Do you see how much the value of even a 1s invuln ramps up the higher dps gets? If you're still not getting it, imagine an fps game where everything is using a shotgun and popping around corners oneshotting each other in close range. But there is one guy out in the field who has a special skill that allows himself 1s of invulnerability every time he goes around a corner to engage someone in the shotgun vs. shotgun engagement. Clearly this man has a very large advantage.

And then we have the same kind of thing happening with CCs in GW2. The higher dps gets, the more powerful CCs are. 6-8 years ago, getting caught by a 2-3s CC during a 1v1 might get 25%-50% chunked off your health. But now, getting caught by a 2-3s CC in matches vs. good players, generally results in instant downstate because the dps is so high. This again, begins to greatly inflate the value of very powerful CCs like Chilled To The Bone, which now holds so much value, that using it once in a team fight can completely momentum shift that team fight. RED was losing the team fight, but a Reaper used CTTB and now RED is winning the team fight, because 3s CC is enough time for RED players to drop 40,000 damage on BLUE's head during that 3s because dps is so high.

Using the extreme example again where even all autos are oneshots, how do you deal with a CC machine that every other thing it does is a ranged CC that is usually a massive aoe that is often unblockable that also goes through walls & floors? Well that 1s invuln frame is about all your gonna do. On a slightly tuned down example where it takes at least 2 hits to kill someone, which is essentially where we are now, this is why Mesmer and Necro are the only two things listed as meta for higher tiered play. The effect I've explained here is pretty accurate and it is what's happening to this game. Ultra CCs and invuln frames are king now. When dps gets very high, this is the inevitability.

Arenanet, you have a few options to reestablish balance so your content doesn't become completely dysfunctional, which we are 1 step away from:

1. Throw another misc. -15% damage to all damage dealt in pvp. It's kind of a copout but w/e. Ultimately the power creep in the damage department is what is creating all of the other issues that greatly enhances the value of some skills but seriously depreciates the value of others, as an intrinsic consequence of damage being way too high.
2. Very powerful CCs need their durations cut like in half. Damage is way too high for things like Chilled To The Bone to be freezing people to the floor for 3s. And no, making CTTB a longer CD is no longer an adequate way to fixing things like this, which will cause more problems mechanically for play than it would help. These very powerful CCs just need their durations brought in line with current damage potential if you don't want to globally lower the damage.
3. Everything that has invuln frames that allows it to attack while invulning at the same time, needs to be seriously reviewed. These effects in particular become wildly powerful when dps becomes very high. I don't know if the CDs need to enhanced or if the durations of these effects need to be halved, or maybe just eliminate some of it. Either way, these kinds of effects become exponentially enhanced the higher dps gets, and it begins to make classes that don't have these effects, sort of headed towards a state of being obsolete actually, because the iframes that allow attack while defend are that important in very high dps meta.

 

Edited Tuesday at 01:31 PM by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

54 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Arenanet, you have a few options to reestablish balance so your content doesn't become completely dysfunctional, which we are 1 step away from:

1. Throw another misc. -15% damage to all damage dealt in pvp. It's kind of a copout but w/e. Ultimately the power creep in the damage department is what is creating all of the other issues that greatly enhances the value of some skills but seriously depreciates the value of others, as an intrinsic consequence of damage being way too high.

Even on the weaker attacks? Because that would cause a separate set of issues

54 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

1. Very powerful CCs need their durations cut like in half. Damage is way too high for things like Chilled To The Bone to be freezing people to the floor for 3s. And no, making CTTB a longer CD is no longer an adequate way to fixing things like this, which will cause more problems mechanically for play than it would help. These very powerful CCs just need their durations brought in line with current damage potential if you don't want to globally lower the damage.

I would contend that it is the damage on certain professions, and certain builds that are more of the issue than long CCs that have been in the game since their release. Perhaps they culled too many sources of stability from some professions and not others causing a lopsided experience?

54 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

1. Everything that has invuln frames that allows it to attack while invulning at the same time, needs to be seriously reviewed. These effects in particular become wildly powerful when dps becomes very high. I don't know if the CDs need to enhanced or if the durations of these effects need to be halved, or maybe just eliminate some of it. Either way, these kinds of effects become exponentially enhanced the higher dps gets, and it begins to make classes that don't have these effects, sort of headed towards a state of being obsolete actually, because the iframes that allow attack while defend are that important in very high dps meta.

 

Would this apply to psuedo invulns that still allow CCs and Condis through? Maybe things like Blur should be turned into pseudo invulns instead or full invulns that allow for actions to be taken still. That way they can at least be CC'd and conditioned to death.