Forum Reactions [merged]

[Manasa Devi.7958]

@OriOri.8724 said:

@"Manasa Devi.7958" said:The problem with a "Thumbs Down" option is that it adds nothing of value in most situations. Any time anyone takes the time to post anything substantial, rating it with a downvote conveys nothing.

What warranted that reaction? Was it the tone of the post? Was it one point made among many? Was it the whole package? Did the post start off on a false premise? Do you disagree with a conclusion? Do you feel the issue shouldn't be up for discussion at all? And these are just the

valid

reasons for disagreement. There will also be the "lolwut" downvotes, the "tl/dr" downvotes and the sheer malicious ones.

A downvote has no value to anyone other than the one casting it. Get over yourselves.

Using that very same logic, an upvote conveys nothing either, since it doesn't tell you what warranted that reaction. Arguments like these come to the only logical conclusion that we need either both upvotes and downvotes, or neither.

We're not talking about Thumbs Up buttons, are we?

[Ashen.2907]

@"Manasa Devi.7958" said:The problem with a "Thumbs Down" option is that it adds nothing of value in most situations. Any time anyone takes the time to post anything substantial, rating it with a downvote conveys nothing.

What warranted that reaction? Was it the tone of the post? Was it one point made among many? Was it the whole package? Did the post start off on a false premise? Do you disagree with a conclusion? Do you feel the issue shouldn't be up for discussion at all? And these are just the valid reasons for disagreement. There will also be the "lolwut" downvotes, the "tl/dr" downvotes and the sheer malicious ones.

A downvote has no value to anyone other than the one casting it. Get over yourselves.

When someone gives a thimbs up vote:

What warranted that reaction? Was it the tone of the post? Was it one point among many? Was it the whole package? Etc.

[Manasa Devi.7958]

@Ashen.2907 said:

@"Manasa Devi.7958" said:The problem with a "Thumbs Down" option is that it adds nothing of value in most situations. Any time anyone takes the time to post anything substantial, rating it with a downvote conveys nothing.

What warranted that reaction? Was it the tone of the post? Was it one point made among many? Was it the whole package? Did the post start off on a false premise? Do you disagree with a conclusion? Do you feel the issue shouldn't be up for discussion at all? And these are just the

valid

reasons for disagreement. There will also be the "lolwut" downvotes, the "tl/dr" downvotes and the sheer malicious ones.

A downvote has no value to anyone other than the one casting it. Get over yourselves.

When someone gives a thimbs up vote:

What warranted that reaction? Was it the tone of the post? Was it one point among many? Was it the whole package? Etc.

We're not talking about Thumbs Up buttons, are we?

[Ashen.2907]

@Manasa Devi.7958 said:

@Ashen.2907 said:

@Manasa Devi.7958 said:The problem with a "Thumbs Down" option is that it adds nothing of value in most situations. Any time anyone takes the time to post anything substantial, rating it with a downvote conveys nothing.

What warranted that reaction? Was it the tone of the post? Was it one point made among many? Was it the whole package? Did the post start off on a false premise? Do you disagree with a conclusion? Do you feel the issue shouldn't be up for discussion at all? And these are just the

valid

reasons for disagreement. There will also be the "lolwut" downvotes, the "tl/dr" downvotes and the sheer malicious ones.

A downvote has no value to anyone other than the one casting it. Get over yourselves.

When someone gives a thimbs up vote:

What warranted that reaction? Was it the tone of the post? Was it one point among many? Was it the whole package? Etc.

We're not talking about Thumbs Up buttons, are we?

The Thumbs Up button's presence, in the absence of a Thumbs Down, is actually part of the poll.

[Manasa Devi.7958]

@Ashen.2907 said:

@Manasa Devi.7958 said:

@Ashen.2907 said:

@Manasa Devi.7958 said:The problem with a "Thumbs Down" option is that it adds nothing of value in most situations. Any time anyone takes the time to post anything substantial, rating it with a downvote conveys nothing.

What warranted that reaction? Was it the tone of the post? Was it one point made among many? Was it the whole package? Did the post start off on a false premise? Do you disagree with a conclusion? Do you feel the issue shouldn't be up for discussion at all? And these are just the

valid

reasons for disagreement. There will also be the "lolwut" downvotes, the "tl/dr" downvotes and the sheer malicious ones.

A downvote has no value to anyone other than the one casting it. Get over yourselves.

When someone gives a thimbs up vote:

What warranted that reaction? Was it the tone of the post? Was it one point among many? Was it the whole package? Etc.

We're not talking about Thumbs Up buttons, are we?

The Thumbs Up button's presence, in the absence of a Thumbs Down, is actually part of the poll.

Let me rephrase that then: "I'm not talking about Thumbs Up buttons, am I?"

[Helbjorne.9368]

@Manasa Devi.7958 said:

@Ashen.2907 said:

@Manasa Devi.7958 said:The problem with a "Thumbs Down" option is that it adds nothing of value in most situations. Any time anyone takes the time to post anything substantial, rating it with a downvote conveys nothing.

What warranted that reaction? Was it the tone of the post? Was it one point made among many? Was it the whole package? Did the post start off on a false premise? Do you disagree with a conclusion? Do you feel the issue shouldn't be up for discussion at all? And these are just the

valid

reasons for disagreement. There will also be the "lolwut" downvotes, the "tl/dr" downvotes and the sheer malicious ones.

A downvote has no value to anyone other than the one casting it. Get over yourselves.

When someone gives a thimbs up vote:

What warranted that reaction? Was it the tone of the post? Was it one point among many? Was it the whole package? Etc.

We're not talking about Thumbs Up buttons, are we?

The point is that people are applying all these bogus stipulations to the Thumbs Down, yet don't want them applied to Thumbs Up. Basically it boils down to "I don't care what you have to say as long as you agree with me." Yeah, that sure sounds like a positive environment.

[GreyWolf.8670]

@OriOri.8724 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Epphyx.5078 said:As the title says, I do think that removing the thumb down was a bad idea.1) You did it on the day one Anet post was massively down voted. Most definitly a coincidence but it will stick in people's mind as "they did it so we can't express our disagreement so easily". So bad timing.2) You did not remove Helpfull nor thumb up. If I have to type a message to express how I disagree with a post, with don't I have to type a message to express how I agree ?3) It promote the idea that only positive thoughts are allowed on the forum. But without criticism there's no progress only stagnation.

Without Open Dialogue as to WHY you disagree, simply disagreeing with someone is pointless, and even more pointless when hidden behind an anonymous function button, if you can't put your name to it, it can't matter that much you to.

Equally so, I should not need to explain why I agree, as we are in agreement.

This is such contrived, hypocritical, and flawed logic. If we have to state why we disagree, then we also have to state why we agree. As it is, you could agree with part of a post, but not all of it. And a simple upvote doesn't convey that, it makes it seem like you agree with all of it. Plus, knowing the why someone agrees is important.

Take a generic PvP thread complaining about X class being too strong. Some people will upvote because they just hate X class and want to see it nerfed to oblivion for no reason. Some people will upvote because they genuinely don't know a thing about X class and think the post is unbiased. And some people may upvote because the post was well thought out and they actually agreed with the sound reasoning behind it, instead of the kneejerk reaction of "I hate X class, always agree with nerfing it even if it doesn't really need it".

You cannot require a reason for downvoting and then not require a reason for upvoting. There's no logic there. Either we have both, or we have neither. Otherwise it just presents a hugely 1 sided argument and ignores crucial information that is extremely relevant.

Why should you have to state you agree with what someone says instead of just clicking an upvote button? There is nothing to be contributed to a debate when you agree with someone other than that. It's when you disagree in a debate that your input is important. Nobody cares if you're already part of the consensus.

[Ashen.2907]

@Manasa Devi.7958 said:

@Ashen.2907 said:

@Manasa Devi.7958 said:

@Ashen.2907 said:

@Manasa Devi.7958 said:The problem with a "Thumbs Down" option is that it adds nothing of value in most situations. Any time anyone takes the time to post anything substantial, rating it with a downvote conveys nothing.

What warranted that reaction? Was it the tone of the post? Was it one point made among many? Was it the whole package? Did the post start off on a false premise? Do you disagree with a conclusion? Do you feel the issue shouldn't be up for discussion at all? And these are just the

valid

reasons for disagreement. There will also be the "lolwut" downvotes, the "tl/dr" downvotes and the sheer malicious ones.

A downvote has no value to anyone other than the one casting it. Get over yourselves.

When someone gives a thimbs up vote:

What warranted that reaction? Was it the tone of the post? Was it one point among many? Was it the whole package? Etc.

We're not talking about Thumbs Up buttons, are we?

The Thumbs Up button's presence, in the absence of a Thumbs Down, is actually part of the poll.

Let me rephrase that then: "I'm not talking about Thumbs Up buttons, am I?"

Well this is a thread where Thumbs Up's existence is part of the topic of discussion, particularly as it relates to Thumbs Down.

If you aren't interested in participating in such a discussion....

[crashburntoo.7431]

There will always be good reasons to keep or remove either the Thumbs Up or Thumbs Down buttons. This wasn't an easy decision for Anet, but I trust that they reviewed both what they had seen and what they wanted to see in the future, with respect to a forum atmosphere.

We are always welcome to disagree with each other. Personally, I could never get comfortable with the Thumbs Down button, but I knew what it represented to many others (a simple way to express disagreement, nothing more). Unfortunately, it wasn't always being used that way. Ultimately, you have to look at what you'd like to accomplish from disagreeing. If you're just doing it to reinforce your own thoughts without expressing them, you do yourself and others a potential disservice... you stifle the opportunity for debate. Debate (with decorum), can lead to a compromise where one or both parties (individuals or groups of people) could learn to appreciate the other side more, even if they still aren't convinced of their argument. If what you think and feel is important, than express it! I want to encourage you to do so. I want everyone to feel comfortable in doing so.

I think the ideal that most forums strive for is healthy conversation. That's found in encouragement, entertainment and forthright discussion. It doesn't censor disagreement or stifle dissatisfaction; it provides a place where compromise, learning, improvement and satisfaction are nurtured.

@"Gaile Gray.6029" has already indicated that the buttons will remain like this for the foreseeable future. Can I suggest that we all decide to move ahead and use the existing buttons as we see fit? For myself, I will continue to use Thumbs Up to say "I agree" without writing a post. That's what I was doing all along, but I was happy to add to the thread if I had something valuable to contribute. I never used Thumbs Down when I disagreed; I chose to respond with a counter point, question or other discourse. I'll continue to do that. And, above all, I value the Helpful tag and like to assign that to anyone that's provided me with additional information (tactic, knowledge, location of resource, interesting point of view, etc.). I think this community could do a lot of good for each other as well as for the game.

[GreyWolf.8670]

@Ashen.2907 said:Either bring back the thumbs down, or eliminate the other options.

Why? If you disagree with someone's opinion then say the reason. There is no reason to if you agree.

[DakotaCoty.5721]

@Helbjorne.9368 said:

@DakotaCoty.5721 said:This is the third thread on the system - it was abused, it has been removed.

TIL disliking or disagreeing with something = abuse. The more you know!

Except that was what was happening... Otherwise, well, we'd still, you know, have the system - who would've guessed?...

[Ashen.2907]

@GreyWolf.8670 said:

@Ashen.2907 said:Either bring back the thumbs down, or eliminate the other options.

Why? If you disagree with someone's opinion then say the reason. There is no reason to if you agree.

Why do you agree? Was it the tone of the post? Was it one point among many made in the post? Was it because the poster is a friend of yours? Was it because you like their name?

[TheRandomGuy.7246]

@costepj.5120 said:You missed an option; the original deployment showed who cast downvotes, so trolls couldn't hide behind anonymity.

This forum is anonymous anyway. Icons had to go because they were cluttering the screen since no one bothered to set up a limit on how many can be displayed at the same time.

Thumbs up is useless without thumbs down so might as well remove the post reputation system all together.

[Lanhelin.3480]

@RoyHarmon.5398 said:For that matter, why are they differentiated at all?

ANet built the major part of the forum-badge-system around these two. If they remove them, the badge-system would shrink to 1st-Posting and the 5-Postings-badge, which would make the entire badge system unnecessary.

[Ashen.2907]

The entire badge system is unnecessary.

[Helbjorne.9368]

@DakotaCoty.5721 said:

@Helbjorne.9368 said:

@DakotaCoty.5721 said:This is the third thread on the system - it was abused, it has been removed.

TIL disliking or disagreeing with something = abuse. The more you know!

Except that was what was happening... Otherwise, well, we'd still, you know, have the system - who would've guessed?...

My point being that disagreeing with or disliking something someone said isn't abuse. They gave into the fragile ego kittens that cried about getting 'Thumbs Downed' and how it promoted negativity, when in reality it was a useful feature that functioned as an informal poll on individual posts. Of course, if it were never added we wouldn't even be having this conversation, but a lot of users liked it, myself included (and I had nearly 100 Thumbs Downs on my profile).

[GreyWolf.8670]

@Leo G.4501 said:

@DakotaCoty.5721 said:

@Carighan.6758 said:

@"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:because just enough people use that tactically rather than strictly as a "I disagree" marker

I would love to see data on this before making wild statements such as this. "Tactically"? For combat purposes or what?

• Oh I dislike this idea? Downvote, no comment
• Oh I dislike this person? Downvote, no comment
• Oh this person is trying too hard, downvote, no comment.
• Oh this person is popular, downvote, no comment
• Oh I dislike something this person said but the idea was good, Downvote, no comment

You see where I'm going with this?

Making stuff up with no evidence and ignoring the opposing argument isn't a strong argument.

This post is exactly the point. Make your argument, don't accuse others of making things up.

[Davion Roth.6709]

@GreyWolf.8670 said:Why should you have to state you agree with what someone says instead of just clicking an upvote button? There is nothing to be contributed to a debate when you agree with someone other than that. It's when you disagree in a debate that your input is important. Nobody cares if you're already part of the consensus.

Sometimes you can agree, but also offer a different take or better solution about what is being discussed.

[GreyWolf.8670]

@Helbjorne.9368 said:

@Reinthir.1349 said:Orr just use words and state why you disagree. That's my problem with the system as a whole tbh. You don't have to post to say whether you agree or disagree and why. Just get rid of them both at this point since it's creating more hassle than it's worth.

Do you require that people provide explanations as to why they like something or agree as well? Maybe we just don't like the cut of your jib.

What an absurd argument. What point is there in demanding why someone agrees with your thoughts?

[GreyWolf.8670]

@Davion Roth.6709 said:

@GreyWolf.8670 said:Why should you have to state you agree with what someone says instead of just clicking an upvote button? There is nothing to be contributed to a debate when you agree with someone other than that. It's when you disagree in a debate that your input is important. Nobody cares if you're already part of the consensus.

Sometimes you can agree, but also offer a different take or better solution about what is being discussed.

Then quote what you agreed with and add your opinion?

[Ashen.2907]

@GreyWolf.8670 said:

@Helbjorne.9368 said:

@Reinthir.1349 said:Orr just use words and state why you disagree. That's my problem with the system as a whole tbh. You don't have to post to say whether you agree or disagree and why. Just get rid of them both at this point since it's creating more hassle than it's worth.

Do you require that people provide explanations as to why they like something or agree as well? Maybe we just don't like the cut of your jib.

What an absurd argument. What point is there in demanding why someone agrees with your thoughts?

Why do they agree? Is it the tone of the post? One point made among many? Because the poster is a friend? Because they like the poster's name? Was it the whole package? Were they trolling by supporting a post that is offensive or that they genuinely feel would be harmful?

[GreyWolf.8670]

@Ashen.2907 said:

@GreyWolf.8670 said:

@Helbjorne.9368 said:

@Reinthir.1349 said:Orr just use words and state why you disagree. That's my problem with the system as a whole tbh. You don't have to post to say whether you agree or disagree and why. Just get rid of them both at this point since it's creating more hassle than it's worth.

Do you require that people provide explanations as to why they like something or agree as well? Maybe we just don't like the cut of your jib.

What an absurd argument. What point is there in demanding why someone agrees with your thoughts?

Why do they agree? Is it the tone of the post? One point made among many? Because the poster is a friend? Because they like the poster's name? Was it the whole package? Were they trolling by supporting a post that is offensive or that they genuinely feel would be harmful?

Did you notice when you disagreed with me that you had to actually respond and say why instead of just clicking a button? That's why.

[Ashen.2907]

@GreyWolf.8670 said:

@Ashen.2907 said:

@GreyWolf.8670 said:

@Helbjorne.9368 said:

@Reinthir.1349 said:Orr just use words and state why you disagree. That's my problem with the system as a whole tbh. You don't have to post to say whether you agree or disagree and why. Just get rid of them both at this point since it's creating more hassle than it's worth.

Do you require that people provide explanations as to why they like something or agree as well? Maybe we just don't like the cut of your jib.

What an absurd argument. What point is there in demanding why someone agrees with your thoughts?

Why do they agree? Is it the tone of the post? One point made among many? Because the poster is a friend? Because they like the poster's name? Was it the whole package? Were they trolling by supporting a post that is offensive or that they genuinely feel would be harmful?

Did you notice when you disagreed with me that you had to actually respond and say why instead of just clicking a button? That's why.

Thats why they agree?

Or were you responding to a different question? You dont seem to have addressed my post at all. Afterall I didnt disagree with your post. I addressed your question.

[Omar Aschi Popp.7496]

@Waldo.8075 said:

@Leo G.4501 said:

@Waldo.8075 said:

@Leo G.4501 said:

@Waldo.8075 said:And so what if my post gets thumbed down? A thumb-down doesn't do much other than being there. It's not constructive and doesn't add anything at all because there could be a million reasons as to why it got thumbed down, but none of it would be mentioned so therefore it means less that nothing.

It would mean i would have had one reply less to write and one less for you to read. Because it's apparently better that you misrepresent the opposing argument and me to write that you are and then you to write that you're not and we go in an infinite circle than it is to just click a button and move on. You're not willing to listen to the opposition nor counter provided arguments nor present new ones so where should the discussion go? Obviously 20+ more pages and a boat load of wasted time...

Now here's a thing.And right now I'm going to point at that "you're not willing to listen."

As long as you do not listen to people, people won't listen to you.Do you see where I'm getting at?

Now, look at how many people disagree with you, compared to the amount of people who disagree with me.

And it'd be nice to know if there are people out there who disagree with me other than this single individual. Someone who can give me a valid counter argument.

You won't know how many people disagree with me because that option was removed. You may have some people who would thumb down my semi-ironic post that i admitted to being an emotionally charged appeal (you obviously missed that) but not my actual message unless people deliberately poll for it.

What's hilarious is you've taken the moral high horse stance of "who agrees with you vs who agrees with me" which

doesn't even matter

because you don't approve of the popularity contest of the downvote system anyway unless of cousw it feeds your argument i suppose.

And i do hope someone besides me gives you a counter argument. Apparently, you'd just ignore mine giving yourself the false assumption that only certain people don't agree with you.

Oh# I would know the amount of people disagreeing if I read the actual posts# and not rely on a feature everyone can abuse without consequences, which I do and I can only count a half because if I read your posts (and you seem the only one to disagree), there's nothing really constructive about them.

...lol What?You mean like... You mean... Like.. . Ok ok ok let me get his straight...

You. Would KNOW how many people disagreebwih something because YOU read it (and formulated your own opinion)?

Because that sounds an awful lot like "I know everyone disagrees with this post because I disagree with it"

WAT

[Omar Aschi Popp.7496]

@DakotaCoty.5721 said:

@Leo G.4501 said:

@DakotaCoty.5721 said:

@Leo G.4501 said:

@DakotaCoty.5721 said:

@Leo G.4501 said:

@DakotaCoty.5721 said:`This has nothing to do with politics, being an American or civil rights - and the fact you went off on a tangent like that is actually laughable.

Apparently an appeal to emotions is only acceptable when you're talking about having your feelings hurt because someone downvotes you. That was literally half the arguments for removing downvotes and those that argued abusing the system never had a counter to the abuse of farming thumbs up and helpfuls for badges.

If helping people increases because of "farming badges and thumbs up/helpful" then surely the system is working as intended? Some form of inspiration to become one with the community is a good thing, surely and not a bad thing?

We have to remind ourselves that these are just numbers, but the intent behind them is permanent. If I tell someone how to fix a problem and I get a thumbs up, that TU means very little to me but my advice may have just helped them into the game rather than wait 4 days for a response.

But it signifies that I am being helpful and active.

So it is perfectly logical that "bad people" exploited the thumbs down feature to discredit people, make them feel bad and silence them with shame but it is not logical "bad people" will exploit the system to thumbs up each other and give out helpfuls in threads meant to bolster their forum badge count? I've been on other forums where badges where given for post counts so people made threads hundreds of pages long for it and discredit posters with lesser counts because of it.

Even in game, players discredit by achievement points.

As I said, if having a thumbs up / helpful reaction system inspires people to be more creative, precise and helpful within their postings, then why is that a bad thing? You can't turn something truly positive into a negative to suit your argument.

Disliking was abused.

So you don't even acknowlege that i presented an argument to you to dispute and repeated yourself? Yes, very constructive...

It's more constructive to repeat myself than argue with those who would defend a system that allows bullying and mass downvote for no reason.

THUMBSWAYDOWNLOL