Reaper its playable class or in "beta w8 for rework mode" ?

[KlausKNT.9302]

Last few months i almost dont see any Reapers in wvsw- like this class don't exist . Its same in pvp ?Reaper its playable ? its to weak? w8ing for rework like mes? or its a deleted class?

[Crinn.7864]

Reaper got pushed out of both WvW and sPvP for a combination of 3 reasons.1) Reaper fills the same the same role that Scourge does, but scourge does that role better.2) Scourge completely counters reaper both in 1v1 and in a teamfight.3) The increase in shroud degen made Reaper extremely vulnerable to the oldest trick in the book: Kiting shroud. Most classes can easily disengage a reaper when the reaper enters shroud and wait for the reaper to leave shroud before reengaging. Before the shroud degen nerf Reapers could partially counter this by camping in shroud from prolonged periods forcing their opponent to either fight them while shrouded or forcing their opponent to disengage and do nothing for a long period time. But with the new 5% degeneration Reapers can only stay in shroud for a few seconds, so it's trivially easy for any opponent to disengage and wait out shroud.

[shippage.1983]

Knowing Anet I'm surprised they didn't just buff it to one-shot levels yet.

[Crinn.7864]

@shippage.1983 said:Knowing Anet I'm surprised they didn't just buff it to one-shot levels yet.

They tried to in November, but arenanet hasn't caught onto the fact that Reaper's Shroud is the easiest thing in the world to kite.

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

I still feel that ANet needs to look at League of Legends' Juggernaut class for inspiration when it comes to Reaper. Specifically, Mordekaiser, Aatrox, Nasus, and Illaoi. Maybe a bit of Warwick, too (not the ult, though). That's the kind of thing the specialization was originally advertised as, so it would be nice if that vision could become a reality.

[Ragion.2831]

Instead of asking for shroud redesign, you guys have been asking for buffs and nerfs. Well you've gotten your buffs and nerfs

[Crinn.7864]

@Ragion.2831 said:Instead of asking for shroud redesign, you guys have been asking for buffs and nerfs. Well you've gotten your buffs and nerfs

Have you seen the necro subforum?

We've been asking for shroud fixes for years.

[Ragion.2831]

@Crinn.7864 said:

@Ragion.2831 said:Instead of asking for shroud redesign, you guys have been asking for buffs and nerfs. Well you've gotten your buffs and nerfs

Have you seen the necro subforum?

We've been asking for shroud fixes for years.

Not fixes, re-design. Turning FTG into a stun break is a fix. No longer being locked in place after leaving shroud is a fix. Im talking about replacing the entire function of the mechanic.

It has done the class no favors. Since 2012 Necro has been notorious for having the worst defense of all the classes which is hilarious considering the shroud mechanic is literally meant for taking hits.

I played only necro and didnt create another character for the first 2 years of the game so I looked at nothing but necro forums, it is flooded with suggestion threads. After about the 100th one, I gave up. So did Bhawb, so did Nemesis and likely B R A Z I L as well. Most people when talking about shroud ask for add ons to the mechanic that buff it or just another iteration of what it already is.

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

@Ragion.2831 said:

@Crinn.7864 said:

@Ragion.2831 said:Instead of asking for shroud redesign, you guys have been asking for buffs and nerfs. Well you've gotten your buffs and nerfs

Have you seen the necro subforum?

We've been asking for shroud fixes for years.

Not fixes, re-design. Turning FTG into a stun break is a fix. No longer being locked in place after leaving shroud is a fix. Im talking about replacing the entire function of the mechanic.

It has done the class no favors. Since 2012 Necro has been notorious for having the worst defense of all the classes which is hilarious considering the shroud mechanic is literally meant for taking hits.

I played only necro and didnt create another character for the first 2 years of the game so I looked at nothing but necro forums, it is flooded with suggestion threads. After about the 100th one, I gave up. So did Bhawb, so did Nemesis and likely B R A Z I L as well. Most people when talking about shroud ask for add ons to the mechanic that buff it or just another iteration of what it already is.

Probably because there's nothing wrong with the concept of it. The idea of Shroud is cool and fun to play with. The problems all come with the implementation, not the core of the mechanic.

[shippage.1983]

Idk why people think Reaper is so trash. I easily hit 100k+ on my bursts.

That bunny npc never saw it coming.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

its funny that they introduced a melee spec for the worst mobility class in the game. if there were some substantial buffs and reworks, and you can say that about any class, then it would be in a fine state. unfortunately anet seems to not want build diversity.

[Ragion.2831]

@Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

@Ragion.2831 said:

@Crinn.7864 said:

@Ragion.2831 said:Instead of asking for shroud redesign, you guys have been asking for buffs and nerfs. Well you've gotten your buffs and nerfs

Have you seen the necro subforum?

We've been asking for shroud fixes for years.

Not fixes, re-design. Turning FTG into a stun break is a fix. No longer being locked in place after leaving shroud is a fix. Im talking about replacing the entire function of the mechanic.

It has done the class no favors. Since 2012 Necro has been notorious for having the worst defense of all the classes which is hilarious considering the shroud mechanic is literally meant for taking hits.

I played only necro and didnt create another character for the first 2 years of the game so I looked at nothing but necro forums, it is flooded with suggestion threads. After about the 100th one, I gave up. So did Bhawb, so did Nemesis and likely B R A Z I L as well. Most people when talking about shroud ask for add ons to the mechanic that buff it or just another iteration of what it already is.

Probably because there's nothing wrong with the concept of it. The idea of Shroud is cool and fun to play with. The problems all come with the implementation, not the core of the mechanic.

The shroud concept is the reason why Necro has had so many issues. Shroud is a bunker mechanic which is bad for conquest. Normally you are supposed to give up attack to bunker but because shroud is itself a bunker mechanic there is a risk of Necro being able to bunker while maintaining high offense. As a result Anet has put it in a box along with the class because shroud is the class' only defense.

Because of what bunkers have done to conquest in the past, look at what has happened to shroud sustain in recent patches.

Before conditions were buffed to oblivion. Necro was food for every class except ele and maybe ranger, Thieves especially. This was really bad because they were every where. Helseth vs Leeto is a great example of what i mean by food. These are 2 top tier players

You could be successful playing it but Nemesis described it best "Necro is a win more class" You win with necro if your teammates are winning you the game already. The fact that necro has never been able to carry like Mesmer thief or rev proves this.If shroud was really a good mechanic, power necro would actually be viable similar to how Power mesmers have been viable with their class mechanic despite condi being better.

The only reason why shroud has been dancing around the same tanking functionality for so many years is cuz of thematics. Anet will take theme over function any day of the week. This was proven once again when they talked about Scourge before PoF release. They considered a mechanic where you sacrifice life force for abilities, but according to them it did not fit with the theme of the class which makes 0 sense.

Btw i am talking about all specs when i mention the core classes.

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

No, Power Necro isn't viable because of things not related to the core of Shroud. Power Necro isn't viable because:

1. Outside of Reaper, Power options just suck for Necro. They simply do not deal enough damage.
2. In Reaper, it can easily be out-kited because it's a melee spec without mobility.
3. Reaper has no survival anymore due to ANet increasing shroud decay.

Only the third can be argued to be "because of Shroud" but all of Reaper's defensive mechanics have been heavily nerfed over time aside from Nightfall. If Reaper's Shroud had 3%/Sec decay like it used to and Rise wasn't split for PvE/PvP (using pvE version) you probably would see Power Necro being a thing in PvP.

At its core, Shroud is a flow-based mechanic, allowing for highs and lows. The power level of Reaper's Shroud skills I would argue are on point, but you can't stay in the form long enough to really put that power to use. The lack of other defensive skills isn't a fault of the idea of Shroud, but the implementation of it. It's cool to have weaker defensive skills than other professions because the very idea of Shroud is to have windows of opportunity for opponents, but those "weaker defensive skills" still need to actually exist.

[Crinn.7864]

Honestly if we could get blighter's boon on core necro there would be not more reason to run reaper over core power necro

[Ragion.2831]

@"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said:No, Power Necro isn't viable because of things not related to the core of Shroud. Power Necro isn't viable because:

1. Outside of Reaper, Power options just suck for Necro. They simply do not deal enough damage.
2. In Reaper, it can easily be out-kited because it's a melee spec without mobility.
3. Reaper has no survival anymore due to ANet increasing shroud decay.

Only the third can be argued to be "because of Shroud" but all of Reaper's defensive mechanics have been heavily nerfed over time aside from Nightfall. If Reaper's Shroud had 3%/Sec decay like it used to and Rise wasn't split for PvE/PvP (using pvE version) you probably would see Power Necro being a thing in PvP.

At its core, Shroud is a flow-based mechanic, allowing for highs and lows. The power level of Reaper's Shroud skills I would argue are on point, but you can't stay in the form long enough to really put that power to use. The lack of other defensive skills isn't a fault of the idea of Shroud, but the implementation of it. It's cool to have weaker defensive skills than other professions because the very idea of Shroud is to have windows of opportunity for opponents, but those "weaker defensive skills" still need to actually exist.

When i say shroud i am talking about shroud in all forms. When i say necro i am talking about necro in all forms. All the problems necro has is because shroud is a tanking mechanic. All your 3 points prove my point so i wlll say this and end this talk with you here.

Whenever you add something to a class you have to consider everything else the class has. Adding mobility means adding offensive ability and if no target is needed also adds defense. Because shroud is separate from HP and is a tanking mechanic there could be consequences for this.

This also applies to damage. Whenever you add damage you have to consider survivability because shroud is a tanking mechanic, blindly adding damage could have consequences. Reaper has no survival through shroud anymore because of all the damage increases.

Everything wrong with power necro (any of the specs) or necro in general is because shroud is a tanking mechanic. If it was a utility mechanic or was built to support the class' skills Anet would have a lot more flexibility with the design.

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

Reaper has no survivability anymore because ANet decided that a tradeoff needed to be made when the entire set was below par as a whole. This is not an issue with Shroud, just a poor balancing decision.

When "par" is 7, and you have a set of 3, 2, and 1, you don't change it to 2,2,2 to bring it up to par. That's what ANet did, though.

[DeceiverX.8361]

Since the changes to SR (VP and SoS) in the name of Scourge, and baseline decay rate for Reaper Shroud on top of the removal of the reset-on-kill from Onslaught (which was amazing for blob play and pretty much keeping the class useful in large-scale fights in WvW), there's really just no reason to play it. It has no favorable matchups whatsoever and is simultaneously weak to nearly everything else.

While condi reaper was definitely busted at the time, power reaper was honestly comparable to most of the core game. Since they've effectively nerfed its durability by 75% and gave everyone tons of mobility and more defenses in PoF, it just really can't do anything since most of its damage is from dealing channeled casts and requires keeping close to its enemies.

[Crinn.7864]

@Ragion.2831 said:

@"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said:No, Power Necro isn't viable because of things not related to the core of Shroud. Power Necro isn't viable because:

1. Outside of Reaper, Power options just suck for Necro. They simply do not deal enough damage.
2. In Reaper, it can easily be out-kited because it's a melee spec without mobility.
3. Reaper has no survival anymore due to ANet increasing shroud decay.

Only the third can be argued to be "because of Shroud" but all of Reaper's defensive mechanics have been heavily nerfed over time aside from Nightfall. If Reaper's Shroud had 3%/Sec decay like it used to and Rise wasn't split for PvE/PvP (using pvE version) you probably would see Power Necro being a thing in PvP.

At its core, Shroud is a flow-based mechanic, allowing for highs and lows. The power level of Reaper's Shroud skills I would argue are on point, but you can't stay in the form long enough to really put that power to use. The lack of other defensive skills isn't a fault of the idea of Shroud, but the implementation of it. It's cool to have weaker defensive skills than other professions because the very idea of Shroud is to have windows of opportunity for opponents, but those "weaker defensive skills" still need to actually

exist

.

When i say shroud i am talking about shroud in all forms. When i say necro i am talking about necro in all forms. All the problems necro has is because shroud is a tanking mechanic. All your 3 points prove my point so i wlll say this and end this talk with you here.

Whenever you add something to a class you have to consider everything else the class has. Adding mobility means adding offensive ability and if no target is needed also adds defense. Because shroud is separate from HP and is a tanking mechanic there could be consequences for this.

This also applies to damage. Whenever you add damage you have to consider survivability because shroud is a tanking mechanic, blindly adding damage could have consequences. Reaper has no survival through shroud anymore because of all the damage increases.

Everything wrong with power necro (any of the specs) or necro in general is because shroud is a tanking mechanic. If it was a utility mechanic or was built to support the class' skills Anet would have a lot more flexibility with the design.

So basically you're saying that because Shroud is defensive mechanic necro can't have nice things? Then what do you say about thief's evade spam, Mesmer's invuls, or guardian's blocks? Are those not defensive mechanics? Why are those classes not restricted in the way necro is?

The problem is not shroud. The problem is that ArenaNet massively overvalues health pool size as a defensive mechanic, while at the same time undervaluing damage avoidance. If you look at the metas over the years you'll notice a trend: More often than not, the hardest classes to kill are the T1 HP classes, because those classes always get the best defensive tools.

[Ragion.2831]

@Crinn.7864 said:

@Ragion.2831 said:

@"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said:No, Power Necro isn't viable because of things not related to the core of Shroud. Power Necro isn't viable because:

1. Outside of Reaper, Power options just suck for Necro. They simply do not deal enough damage.
2. In Reaper, it can easily be out-kited because it's a melee spec without mobility.
3. Reaper has no survival anymore due to ANet increasing shroud decay.

Only the third can be argued to be "because of Shroud" but all of Reaper's defensive mechanics have been heavily nerfed over time aside from Nightfall. If Reaper's Shroud had 3%/Sec decay like it used to and Rise wasn't split for PvE/PvP (using pvE version) you probably would see Power Necro being a thing in PvP.

At its core, Shroud is a flow-based mechanic, allowing for highs and lows. The power level of Reaper's Shroud skills I would argue are on point, but you can't stay in the form long enough to really put that power to use. The lack of other defensive skills isn't a fault of the idea of Shroud, but the implementation of it. It's cool to have weaker defensive skills than other professions because the very idea of Shroud is to have windows of opportunity for opponents, but those "weaker defensive skills" still need to actually

exist

.

When i say shroud i am talking about shroud in all forms. When i say necro i am talking about necro in all forms. All the problems necro has is because shroud is a tanking mechanic. All your 3 points prove my point so i wlll say this and end this talk with you here.

Whenever you add something to a class you have to consider everything else the class has. Adding mobility means adding offensive ability and if no target is needed also adds defense. Because shroud is separate from HP and is a tanking mechanic there could be consequences for this.

This also applies to damage. Whenever you add damage you have to consider survivability because shroud is a tanking mechanic, blindly adding damage could have consequences. Reaper has no survival through shroud anymore because of all the damage increases.

Everything wrong with power necro (any of the specs) or necro in general is because shroud is a tanking mechanic. If it was a utility mechanic or was built to support the class' skills Anet would have a lot more flexibility with the design.

So basically you're saying that because Shroud is defensive mechanic necro can't have nice things? Then what do you say about thief's evade spam, Mesmer's invuls, or guardian's blocks? Are those not defensive mechanics? Why are those classes not restricted in the way necro is?

The problem is not shroud. The problem is that ArenaNet massively overvalues health pool size as a defensive mechanic, while at the same time undervaluing damage avoidance. If you look at the metas over the years you'll notice a trend: More often than not, the hardest classes to kill are the T1 HP classes, because those classes always get the best defensive tools.

I specifically said tanking not defensive. Tanking is a type of defense not one and the same. And im saying because shroud is a tanking mechanic Anet is severely limited on what it can do to the class. As a tanking mechanic there is no set duration or up time, only a range unlike other forms of defense. How long shroud lasts is affected by a lot of things. The more factors there are that affect something the harder it is to design around it.

Which is why the shroud cooldown when traited has been changed multiple times before the trait got removed all together only for the sustain to be later axed as well.

Why do you think the most unbalanced game to ever be created is Yugioh? Assuming no ban list you can end the game without your opponent being able to take their turn.

You cannot compare shroud to blocks invulns and evades. This was already concluded in 2013 when people realized that necro shroud is actually the worst defense.

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

@Ragion.2831 said:

@Crinn.7864 said:

@Ragion.2831 said:

@"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said:No, Power Necro isn't viable because of things not related to the core of Shroud. Power Necro isn't viable because:

1. Outside of Reaper, Power options just suck for Necro. They simply do not deal enough damage.
2. In Reaper, it can easily be out-kited because it's a melee spec without mobility.
3. Reaper has no survival anymore due to ANet increasing shroud decay.

Only the third can be argued to be "because of Shroud" but all of Reaper's defensive mechanics have been heavily nerfed over time aside from Nightfall. If Reaper's Shroud had 3%/Sec decay like it used to and Rise wasn't split for PvE/PvP (using pvE version) you probably would see Power Necro being a thing in PvP.

At its core, Shroud is a flow-based mechanic, allowing for highs and lows. The power level of Reaper's Shroud skills I would argue are on point, but you can't stay in the form long enough to really put that power to use. The lack of other defensive skills isn't a fault of the idea of Shroud, but the implementation of it. It's cool to have weaker defensive skills than other professions because the very idea of Shroud is to have windows of opportunity for opponents, but those "weaker defensive skills" still need to actually

exist

.

When i say shroud i am talking about shroud in all forms. When i say necro i am talking about necro in all forms. All the problems necro has is because shroud is a tanking mechanic. All your 3 points prove my point so i wlll say this and end this talk with you here.

Whenever you add something to a class you have to consider everything else the class has. Adding mobility means adding offensive ability and if no target is needed also adds defense. Because shroud is separate from HP and is a tanking mechanic there could be consequences for this.

This also applies to damage. Whenever you add damage you have to consider survivability because shroud is a tanking mechanic, blindly adding damage could have consequences. Reaper has no survival through shroud anymore because of all the damage increases.

Everything wrong with power necro (any of the specs) or necro in general is because shroud is a tanking mechanic. If it was a utility mechanic or was built to support the class' skills Anet would have a lot more flexibility with the design.

So basically you're saying that because Shroud is defensive mechanic necro can't have nice things? Then what do you say about thief's evade spam, Mesmer's invuls, or guardian's blocks? Are those not defensive mechanics? Why are those classes not restricted in the way necro is?

The problem is not shroud. The problem is that ArenaNet massively overvalues health pool size as a defensive mechanic, while at the same time undervaluing damage avoidance. If you look at the metas over the years you'll notice a trend: More often than not, the hardest classes to kill are the T1 HP classes, because those classes always get the best defensive tools.

I specifically said tanking not defensive. Tanking is a type of defense not one and the same. And im saying because shroud is a tanking mechanic Anet is severely limited on what it can do to the class. As a tanking mechanic there is no set duration or up time, only a range unlike other forms of defense. How long shroud lasts is affected by a lot of things. The more factors there are that affect something the harder it is to design around it.

Why do you think the most unbalanced game to ever be created is Yugioh? Assuming no ban list you can end the game without your opponent being able to take their turn.

You cannot compare shroud to blocks invulns and evades. This was already concluded in 2013 when people realized that necro shroud is actually the worst defense.

Yugioh is the most unbalanced TCG because it doesn't have a resource limitation like every other TCG does. Magic: the Gathering (arguably the best balanced TCG) has a few different ways to win before your opponent takes their first turn as well. I don't know what your point is in bringing this up at all.

Tanking is a form of defense, yes. However, it's a form that literally everyone in the game, including NPC's have access to! Saying that because a Necromancer is capable of tanking, its other options are limited is completely false.

[Ragion.2831]

@Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

@Ragion.2831 said:

@Crinn.7864 said:

@Ragion.2831 said:

@Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:No, Power Necro isn't viable because of things not related to the core of Shroud. Power Necro isn't viable because:

1. Outside of Reaper, Power options just suck for Necro. They simply do not deal enough damage.
2. In Reaper, it can easily be out-kited because it's a melee spec without mobility.
3. Reaper has no survival anymore due to ANet increasing shroud decay.

Only the third can be argued to be "because of Shroud" but all of Reaper's defensive mechanics have been heavily nerfed over time aside from Nightfall. If Reaper's Shroud had 3%/Sec decay like it used to and Rise wasn't split for PvE/PvP (using pvE version) you probably would see Power Necro being a thing in PvP.

At its core, Shroud is a flow-based mechanic, allowing for highs and lows. The power level of Reaper's Shroud skills I would argue are on point, but you can't stay in the form long enough to really put that power to use. The lack of other defensive skills isn't a fault of the idea of Shroud, but the implementation of it. It's cool to have weaker defensive skills than other professions because the very idea of Shroud is to have windows of opportunity for opponents, but those "weaker defensive skills" still need to actually

exist

.

When i say shroud i am talking about shroud in all forms. When i say necro i am talking about necro in all forms. All the problems necro has is because shroud is a tanking mechanic. All your 3 points prove my point so i wlll say this and end this talk with you here.

Whenever you add something to a class you have to consider everything else the class has. Adding mobility means adding offensive ability and if no target is needed also adds defense. Because shroud is separate from HP and is a tanking mechanic there could be consequences for this.

This also applies to damage. Whenever you add damage you have to consider survivability because shroud is a tanking mechanic, blindly adding damage could have consequences. Reaper has no survival through shroud anymore because of all the damage increases.

Everything wrong with power necro (any of the specs) or necro in general is because shroud is a tanking mechanic. If it was a utility mechanic or was built to support the class' skills Anet would have a lot more flexibility with the design.

So basically you're saying that because Shroud is defensive mechanic necro can't have nice things? Then what do you say about thief's evade spam, Mesmer's invuls, or guardian's blocks? Are those not defensive mechanics? Why are those classes not restricted in the way necro is?

The problem is not shroud. The problem is that ArenaNet massively overvalues health pool size as a defensive mechanic, while at the same time undervaluing damage avoidance. If you look at the metas over the years you'll notice a trend: More often than not, the hardest classes to kill are the T1 HP classes, because those classes always get the best defensive tools.

I specifically said tanking not defensive. Tanking is a type of defense not one and the same. And im saying because shroud is a tanking mechanic Anet is severely limited on what it can do to the class. As a tanking mechanic there is no set duration or up time, only a range unlike other forms of defense. How long shroud lasts is affected by a lot of things. The more factors there are that affect something the harder it is to design around it.

Why do you think the most unbalanced game to ever be created is Yugioh? Assuming no ban list you can end the game without your opponent being able to take their turn.

You cannot compare shroud to blocks invulns and evades. This was already concluded in 2013 when people realized that necro shroud is actually the worst defense.

Yugioh is the most unbalanced TCG because it doesn't have a resource limitation like every other TCG does. Magic: the Gathering (arguably the best balanced TCG) has a few different ways to win before your opponent takes their first turn as well. I don't know what your point is in bringing this up at all.

Tanking is a form of defense, yes. However, it's a form that

literally everyone in the game, including NPC's have access to!

Saying that because a Necromancer is capable of tanking, its other options are limited is completely false.

No one but necro has access to a tanking mechanic that is separate from HP. Look man i already said i am kinda done talking about this with you. No offense but Ive read your posts over the months and its very difficult talking with someone that argues with no logic.

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

@Ragion.2831 said:

@Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

@Ragion.2831 said:

@Crinn.7864 said:

@Ragion.2831 said:

@Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:No, Power Necro isn't viable because of things not related to the core of Shroud. Power Necro isn't viable because:

1. Outside of Reaper, Power options just suck for Necro. They simply do not deal enough damage.
2. In Reaper, it can easily be out-kited because it's a melee spec without mobility.
3. Reaper has no survival anymore due to ANet increasing shroud decay.

Only the third can be argued to be "because of Shroud" but all of Reaper's defensive mechanics have been heavily nerfed over time aside from Nightfall. If Reaper's Shroud had 3%/Sec decay like it used to and Rise wasn't split for PvE/PvP (using pvE version) you probably would see Power Necro being a thing in PvP.

At its core, Shroud is a flow-based mechanic, allowing for highs and lows. The power level of Reaper's Shroud skills I would argue are on point, but you can't stay in the form long enough to really put that power to use. The lack of other defensive skills isn't a fault of the idea of Shroud, but the implementation of it. It's cool to have weaker defensive skills than other professions because the very idea of Shroud is to have windows of opportunity for opponents, but those "weaker defensive skills" still need to actually

exist

.

When i say shroud i am talking about shroud in all forms. When i say necro i am talking about necro in all forms. All the problems necro has is because shroud is a tanking mechanic. All your 3 points prove my point so i wlll say this and end this talk with you here.

Whenever you add something to a class you have to consider everything else the class has. Adding mobility means adding offensive ability and if no target is needed also adds defense. Because shroud is separate from HP and is a tanking mechanic there could be consequences for this.

This also applies to damage. Whenever you add damage you have to consider survivability because shroud is a tanking mechanic, blindly adding damage could have consequences. Reaper has no survival through shroud anymore because of all the damage increases.

Everything wrong with power necro (any of the specs) or necro in general is because shroud is a tanking mechanic. If it was a utility mechanic or was built to support the class' skills Anet would have a lot more flexibility with the design.

So basically you're saying that because Shroud is defensive mechanic necro can't have nice things? Then what do you say about thief's evade spam, Mesmer's invuls, or guardian's blocks? Are those not defensive mechanics? Why are those classes not restricted in the way necro is?

The problem is not shroud. The problem is that ArenaNet massively overvalues health pool size as a defensive mechanic, while at the same time undervaluing damage avoidance. If you look at the metas over the years you'll notice a trend: More often than not, the hardest classes to kill are the T1 HP classes, because those classes always get the best defensive tools.

I specifically said tanking not defensive. Tanking is a type of defense not one and the same. And im saying because shroud is a tanking mechanic Anet is severely limited on what it can do to the class. As a tanking mechanic there is no set duration or up time, only a range unlike other forms of defense. How long shroud lasts is affected by a lot of things. The more factors there are that affect something the harder it is to design around it.

Why do you think the most unbalanced game to ever be created is Yugioh? Assuming no ban list you can end the game without your opponent being able to take their turn.

You cannot compare shroud to blocks invulns and evades. This was already concluded in 2013 when people realized that necro shroud is actually the worst defense.

Yugioh is the most unbalanced TCG because it doesn't have a resource limitation like every other TCG does. Magic: the Gathering (arguably the best balanced TCG) has a few different ways to win before your opponent takes their first turn as well. I don't know what your point is in bringing this up at all.

Tanking is a form of defense, yes. However, it's a form that

literally everyone in the game, including NPC's have access to!

Saying that because a Necromancer is capable of tanking, its other options are limited is completely false.

No one but necro has access to a tanking mechanic that is separate from HP. Look man i already said i am kinda done talking about this with you. No offense but Ive read your posts over the months and its very difficult talking with someone that argues with no logic.

With the introduction of Barrier, quite a few classes "have access to a tanking mechanic that is separate from HP." I notice none got their evades/blocks/immunities reduced on account of it. For that matter, you could argue Rangers have had it since launch, since their pets can tank quite a bit.

I'm curious how you think I argue with no logic, but that's not for here. Most people that claim that are simply not reading what I wrote.

[Ragion.2831]

@Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

@Ragion.2831 said:

@Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

@Ragion.2831 said:

@Crinn.7864 said:

@Ragion.2831 said:

@Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:No, Power Necro isn't viable because of things not related to the core of Shroud. Power Necro isn't viable because:

1. Outside of Reaper, Power options just suck for Necro. They simply do not deal enough damage.
2. In Reaper, it can easily be out-kited because it's a melee spec without mobility.
3. Reaper has no survival anymore due to ANet increasing shroud decay.

Only the third can be argued to be "because of Shroud" but all of Reaper's defensive mechanics have been heavily nerfed over time aside from Nightfall. If Reaper's Shroud had 3%/Sec decay like it used to and Rise wasn't split for PvE/PvP (using pvE version) you probably would see Power Necro being a thing in PvP.

At its core, Shroud is a flow-based mechanic, allowing for highs and lows. The power level of Reaper's Shroud skills I would argue are on point, but you can't stay in the form long enough to really put that power to use. The lack of other defensive skills isn't a fault of the idea of Shroud, but the implementation of it. It's cool to have weaker defensive skills than other professions because the very idea of Shroud is to have windows of opportunity for opponents, but those "weaker defensive skills" still need to actually

exist

.

When i say shroud i am talking about shroud in all forms. When i say necro i am talking about necro in all forms. All the problems necro has is because shroud is a tanking mechanic. All your 3 points prove my point so i wlll say this and end this talk with you here.

Whenever you add something to a class you have to consider everything else the class has. Adding mobility means adding offensive ability and if no target is needed also adds defense. Because shroud is separate from HP and is a tanking mechanic there could be consequences for this.

This also applies to damage. Whenever you add damage you have to consider survivability because shroud is a tanking mechanic, blindly adding damage could have consequences. Reaper has no survival through shroud anymore because of all the damage increases.

Everything wrong with power necro (any of the specs) or necro in general is because shroud is a tanking mechanic. If it was a utility mechanic or was built to support the class' skills Anet would have a lot more flexibility with the design.

So basically you're saying that because Shroud is defensive mechanic necro can't have nice things? Then what do you say about thief's evade spam, Mesmer's invuls, or guardian's blocks? Are those not defensive mechanics? Why are those classes not restricted in the way necro is?

The problem is not shroud. The problem is that ArenaNet massively overvalues health pool size as a defensive mechanic, while at the same time undervaluing damage avoidance. If you look at the metas over the years you'll notice a trend: More often than not, the hardest classes to kill are the T1 HP classes, because those classes always get the best defensive tools.

I specifically said tanking not defensive. Tanking is a type of defense not one and the same. And im saying because shroud is a tanking mechanic Anet is severely limited on what it can do to the class. As a tanking mechanic there is no set duration or up time, only a range unlike other forms of defense. How long shroud lasts is affected by a lot of things. The more factors there are that affect something the harder it is to design around it.

Why do you think the most unbalanced game to ever be created is Yugioh? Assuming no ban list you can end the game without your opponent being able to take their turn.

You cannot compare shroud to blocks invulns and evades. This was already concluded in 2013 when people realized that necro shroud is actually the worst defense.

Yugioh is the most unbalanced TCG because it doesn't have a resource limitation like every other TCG does. Magic: the Gathering (arguably the best balanced TCG) has a few different ways to win before your opponent takes their first turn as well. I don't know what your point is in bringing this up at all.

Tanking is a form of defense, yes. However, it's a form that

literally everyone in the game, including NPC's have access to!

Saying that because a Necromancer is capable of tanking, its other options are limited is completely false.

No one but necro has access to a tanking mechanic that is separate from HP. Look man i already said i am kinda done talking about this with you. No offense but Ive read your posts over the months and its very difficult talking with someone that argues with no logic.

With the introduction of Barrier, quite a few classes "have access to a tanking mechanic that is separate from HP." I notice none got their evades/blocks/immunities reduced on account of it. For that matter, you could argue Rangers have had it since launch, since their pets can tank quite a bit.

I'm curious how you think I argue with no logic, but that's not for here. Most people that claim that are simply not reading what I wrote.

I figured you would mention barrier. Barrier has a set duration. Barrier really is just a walmart block mechanic. It is attached to your hp not separate. if you take more damage than the barrier the difference is taken from your hp. I think with shroud the difference is not taken, it just ends. Barrier does not have damage reduction. You can't in any way compare shroud to barrier

Oddly enough i cant remember if damage difference is taken from hp while in shroud. Even if it is, the fact that barrier has a set duration and is affected by much less factors than shroud makes it too different to have the same effect on balance.

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

No, with Shroud, the difference gets taken from your health as well. Barrier behaves exactly the same as Shroud in that regard. The only difference between Shroud as a defense and barrier is that Barrier lacks the damage reduction, but allows healing.

Saying Barrier has a set duration isn't even a difference either, as Shroud does as well due to decay.

There's actually a weird thing with Shroud and hits that deplete it. If, for example, you take a 6k hit with 2k Shroud left, the Shroud's damage reduction doesn't apply and you take 4k damage to health. If you had only taken 4k from the hit, you would be at 0 Shroud, but no damage to health.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

so what would you guys say to necro getting some heavier defensive meachanics? something along the lines of:when you enter shroud, you are invuln for 1 second.orcorrupting or removing a boon gives you health and life force.orwhenever you apply weakness, gain 10 endurance.

would things like that make necro too op?