Should Hidden Thief Give Super Speed?

[Ghost.5637]

If you're running shadow arts, you're most likely not running a power build with UC or acrobatics. This means that you have lacking swiftness uptime and even with the 50% speed increase, it is painful to try and catch up as a core thief to other classes and land a backstab. Give the Hidden Thief trait pulsing superspeed with an ICD. This way the synergy for having to use stealth for mobility balances out and can't be stacked through stacking stealth. Say 2-3 seconds of super speed on first application on stealth, with a 5 second ICD.

[Westenev.5289]

You word it like it's a buff, but isn't this actually a rather heavy handed nerf? Ultimately, I imagine such a trait would actually cause a person to move slower due to the difficulty and inefficiancy of maintaining stealth in 5 second intervals in a game that stacks stealth in bursts of 3s or 4s. You're just not going to catch anyone using your suggested trait.

[DeceiverX.8361]

Probably a net-nerf on mobility as a whole considering most SA players never leave stealth. It'd be neat if stealth stacking were removed.Further, OOC movespeed is capped at 40%, so it's only applicable in-combat as well. In which case, probably better to have it as it is, since then it makes stealthed thieves immune to cripple/chill which is kinda broken on top of SE's DoT-focused cleanse.

It's one of the problems consistent with SA: You're punished for leaving stealth.

The bigger issue at hand as far as not catching anyone is unfortunately just mobility powercreep. Thief's relative mobility aside from UC Daredevil with shortbow is quickly becoming less relevant, most notably so on core.

[saerni.2584]

Hidden Thief is fine as is imo because it is consistent. 100% uptime, while in stealth, is easier to manage than a variable cooldown buff.

SA focuses far more of bonuses for gaining or maintaining stealth than bonuses for leaving it. SE, HT, CiS and SR all fit the pattern of benefits from stealth. Rending Shade is the odd ability out by adding Boon Steal to stealth based attacks.

But I think the issue, that a person can stack stealth to such a great extent that the bonuses moreso reward those who camp in stealth, is best addressed by reducing stealth camping. Stealth camping could be reduced by decreasing access or by increasing limits on stacking.

I’d prefer to limit stacks by a soft limit. Say the limit is three stacks. You can stack stealth three times without being visible before application duration starts to decrease. In SA that gets you 12 seconds. Now each subsequent stack is reduced in effectiveness by one second per additional stack. So someone can get, at most in SA, 17 seconds of stealth total uptime before stealth abilities only apply one second of additional duration. Obviously this means permanent stealth cannot he maintained.

However, if a thief is visible for one second, the stack count resets to zero and the thief can stack stealth again subject to the revealed debuff.

This model would be a nerf but only on long term stealth camping. A thief could still gain significant stealth but not permanent stealth. I would modify Shadow Refuge to have four pulses at 4, 4, 4, 3 with SA for a total of 15 seconds with 12 seconds duration after the Refuge expires. I might also lower the cooldown slightly to 50 seconds base.

[Ghost.5637]

@Westenev.5289 said:You word it like it's a buff, but isn't this actually a rather heavy handed nerf? Ultimately, I imagine such a trait would actually cause a person to move slower due to the difficulty and inefficiancy of maintaining stealth in 5 second intervals in a game that stacks stealth in bursts of 3s or 4s. You're just not going to catch anyone using your suggested trait.

Super Speed is a powerful buff, so i only suggested a 5sec ICD since i imagined permanent super speed with good cnd timing as a little busted (I am just throwing out numbers. The general change is to give HT super speed) . But you only need a few seconds to catch your target and land a back stab, which you would be revealed anyway. I do agree that it's more of a change from long term moderate speed buff to a short, quick burst of movement to land the important hits or adjust as needed. It could always just give X seconds of superspeed only on first application of stealth, and keep a moderate boost after it expires.

@DeceiverX.8361 said:Probably a net-nerf on mobility as a whole considering most SA players never leave stealth. It'd be neat if stealth stacking were removed.

Never leaving stealth is a common complaint, isn't it? And the only ones I see in stealth that long are condi hit and runs and malice stacking deadeyes. Both who could probably benefit for a burst of super speed to re position quickly.

The bigger issue at hand as far as not catching anyone is unfortunately just mobility powercreep. Thief's relative mobility aside from UC Daredevil with shortbow is quickly becoming less relevant, most notably so on core.

This is more where the inspiration came from. Outside trying to steal+backstab a target, I have ended up being out run by my opponents simply due to inability to keep up. Especially if you're running D/D + SA, your initial strike will require followup which can only really be met by switching to shortbow or if the enemy stays to fight.

[Ghost.5637]

@saerni.2584 said:

But I think the issue, that a person can stack stealth to such a great extent that the bonuses moreso reward those who camp in stealth, is best addressed by reducing stealth camping. Stealth camping could be reduced by decreasing access or by increasing limits on stacking.

How does this assist the lackluster catch up ability SA thieves have? This is just nerfing stealth

[saerni.2584]

I have never had an issue with mobility on thief and I don’t think SA needs a change to be “more active.”

The only thing passive about SA is the perception that people sitting in stealth are doing nothing. Actually, the opposite is true because stacking stealth does take resources. Still I agree the perception of passivity is an issue and I’d like to address that without turning every trait into Rending Shade (on leaving stealth). This was more a response to DeceiverX than your ideas specifically.

I don’t think superspeed with less than 100% uptime would be buff. At worst it would be a nerf and at best an annoyance by turning stealth based movement into a fast then slow then fast experience. I am not advocating giving thief super speed with 100% uptime in stealth. I think that would be broken and a buff to permastealth thieves that isn’t warranted.

Periodically we get buff SA threads and I’m always wary of them due to the potential loss of functioning traits to satisfy people. I just don’t see the benefit and see a lot of issues timing a melee Attack from stealth with a buff that periodically makes me go much faster.

[babazhook.6805]

IN sa the only trait I see needing a buff is shadow protector.

I DO think that SE should be separated somehow from the Concealed defeat trait. Other than that I think the line fine.

The issue of stealth stacking is not an SA issue. ( I had suggested that the 1sec ICD on stealth attacks be applied to Stealth instead wherein outside SR stacking stealth consecutively has a 1 second ICD)

[DeceiverX.8361]

@CreedOfGod.9764 said:

@saerni.2584 said:

But I think the issue, that a person can stack stealth to such a great extent that the bonuses moreso reward those who camp in stealth, is best addressed by reducing stealth camping. Stealth camping could be reduced by decreasing access or by increasing limits on stacking.

How does this assist the lackluster catch up ability SA thieves have? This is just nerfing stealth

SA thieves have great catching potential in comparison to most other kits, though. Out of combat, they have the same movespeed as someone with Super Speed. In-combat, they're at nearly 75% of the OOC movespeed cap, or just over the OOC baseline speed. Combine with Shadow Shot, IArrow, or IStrike, and that's a lot of sticking potential.

The lone exception here is that D/D can't catch, which I know you play. This is why I think DB needs to be made into a movement evade similar to Whirlwind Attack (obviously lower damage/fewer hits/etc. because it's spammable).

Unless SA is changed to more unanimously reward weaving in and out of stealth rather than camping it as saerni smentioned, I just think this ends up being a questionable change that'd negatively affect more builds than it would help. I'm all for cutting passive play and helping OH dagger, but I just don't think this has enough substance to work on its own. Great if they changed the rest of SA to revolve around more active play, but right now, there's no benefit for weaving stealth except for this trait change, and super speed is really hard to balance, especially when combined with stealth and the possibility of combining it with ranged attackers like DE.

Edit: I generally agree with you on your assessment baba, though it's definitely partially an SA issue; SA definitely exacerbates the problem of stacking stealth by rewarding the thief for doing it and just doing nothing, which is pretty unhealthy play imho.

[saerni.2584]

On super speed I will note that the Deadeye mark skill from rangers grants superspeed and is an excellent immobilize.

It’s really fun but why I think superspeed in stealth could be truly op.

[DeceiverX.8361]

@saerni.2584 said:On super speed I will note that the Deadeye mark skill from rangers grants superspeed and is an excellent immobilize.

It’s really fun but why I think superspeed in stealth could be truly op.

As an additional effect, it's extremely strong since it basically makes you immune to cripple/chill. As a cooldown-tied replacement to the current HT in a line which gives no benefit to leaving stealth and only benefits camping it, I just see it as making matchups really binary for no particular reason. Yeah, it could be OP into a movement-impairing build, but into any other, it ends up a net loss.

This ofc is the bigger underlying issue with SA as we've both mentioned: it only rewards stacking stealth.