Updated Charr command core instance hint towards living story?

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

@Aaron Ansari.1604 said:That's how headquarters work now, in a world with near-instantaneous communication. Tyria didn't have that until after the jungle campaign. In such circumstances, it's not unusual for the 'headquarters' of a campaign to be in the field, and move with an army- thus why we see Trahearne move his planning team to Resolve, and then board the fleet personally to see the plan carried out.IncorrectA. The waypoint system exist in lore.B. Fort Trinity has instantaneous asura gate connections to the Vigil, Priory, and Chantry, all of which are a stones throw from Lions Arch, which is itself connected to every major city in central Tyria.And yes, he would move his palling team to Fort Resolve so they could get a better grasp of the situation, that does not change where the Pact's HQ is. Again, which is why Camp Resolve is called a forward base, and never their HQ.

They attack Flame Legion in Fireheart Rise as a build-up to their objectives in the CoF- that's why they're part of the metas leading up to it,with the last meta being required to access the dungeon.The krait and, iirc, the Inquest in Maelstrom, they fight because those groups attacked them when the Pact came out to check the spread of the risen.Which is, again, them spending time and effort fighting things that aren't dragon related, when they could have just ignored them.

Laranthir specifically says that it was none of the Pact's business unless there was a dragon involved. If your character had completed the PS at that point, they give Laranthir a bit of gruff for even coming out to check on the aftermath, and Laranthir says it was an uphill battle to get Trahearne to sign off on it.Which is hilariously contradicted by the base game, but then again, LWS1 didn't have the best writing coughscarletcough Not to mention its even refuted later when the Pact starts working against the Mantle in places like Bloodstone Fen.

[Aaron Ansari.1604]

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@Aaron Ansari.1604 said:That's how headquarters work now, in a world with near-instantaneous communication. Tyria didn't have that until after the jungle campaign. In such circumstances, it's not unusual for the 'headquarters' of a campaign to be in the field, and move with an army- thus why we see Trahearne move his planning team to Resolve, and then board the fleet personally to see the plan carried out.IncorrectA. The waypoint system exist in lore.Yes, and in lore, it's unreliable. The things shut down at any enemy incursion- that doesn't make them a viable option during a campaign. Too great a risk of lines of communication being cut right when they're needed most- like radios that short out the instant that the enemy launches a surprise attack.

B. Fort Trinity has instantaneous asura gate connections to the Vigil, Priory, and Chantry, all of which are a stones throw from Lions Arch, which is itself connected to every major city in central Tyria.

I'd dispute the distance from Vigil Keep, but be that as it may- how is getting from Fort Trinity to Lion's Arch quickly any help to a campaign in the jungle? Using the gates to send a message even as far as Resolve, in the case that the waypoints are down, would require routing to the Priory, climbing off the mountain and crossing to LA, hopping a gate to either Rata Sum or the Grove, and then hiking across a stretch roughly equivalent to the entire kingdom of Kryta, with a decent portion of it through wilderness. And then, to get a message back, the entire journey again in reverse. I imagine that's not any more palatable an option than just conveying the courier directly by airship.

They attack Flame Legion in Fireheart Rise as a build-up to their objectives in the CoF- that's why they're part of the metas leading up to it,with the last meta being required to access the dungeon.The krait and, iirc, the Inquest in Maelstrom, they fight because those groups attacked them when the Pact came out to check the spread of the risen.Which is, again, them spending time and effort fighting things that aren't dragon related, when they could have just ignored them.I agree in the case of the Flame Legion, although, again, it was in a situation where the stated objective was explicitly to strengthen their imminent campaign against Zhaitan.

I disagree in the case of the Inquest and krait. When your neighbors launch attacks against you, you don't have the luxury of saying 'no worries, you keep doing you'. They needed those forces cleared out so they could accomplish what they were there to do in the beginning- contain the risen and study ways to better fight them.

Laranthir specifically says that it was none of the Pact's business unless there was a dragon involved. If your character had completed the PS at that point, they give Laranthir a bit of gruff for even coming out to check on the aftermath, and Laranthir says it was an uphill battle to get Trahearne to sign off on it.Which is hilariously contradicted by the base game, but then again, LWS1 didn't have the best writing

cough

scarlet

cough

Not to mention its even refuted later when the Pact starts working against the Mantle in places like Bloodstone Fen.It's not about the quality of the writing, although I'm inclined to agree with you there. It's about Laranthir not saying what you claimed he said. If we're agreed on that point, than he no longer has relevance to this conversation, and I'm happy to dismiss him.

As for the Pact and the Mantle... I do hope that's a sign that the Pact's done turning a blind eye to urgent threats, but to play Devil's Advocate, remember that what we see in Bloodstone Fen is A.) just a single squad who'd previously been attacked by the Mantle during the Mordremoth campaign, and B.) came at a time when the Pact had no effective leadership. Now that Logan's in the captain's chair, I'd expect that he'd approve of such initiatives, but at the time it may have just been a case of no one being around to say no.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:Which is, again, them spending time and effort fighting things that aren't dragon related, when they could have just ignored them.

"Sir, there's reports of our scouts going missing."

"Was it the risen?"

"No sir, reports claim krait were the culprits."

"Then we'll just ignore them."

"But sir, we're loosing soldiers! Our men and women are being killed!"

"Not dragons, don't care."

Yeah, no. That won't ever happen.

"Sir, the High Legions have responded to our request for weapons. They say they'll only offer support if we help them assault the Citadel of Flame."

"Not dragon related, don't care."

"But there's reports that the Flame Legion have some sort of superweapon. Couldn't we procure this weapon and use it against the dragons? And those Legion submarines would be very useful for assaulting an island territory, their chopper prototypes would be great for going against dragons, and even the tanks could be pretty useful in land assaults. Could save Pact lives."

"Nah, we're good on our own."

Yeah, also pretty unlikely.

If they involve themselves in non-dragon matters, it's because A) those matters involved them first or B) There's an obvious and direct benefit to them.

Same reason why we helped Rytlock with the ritual, and took out that Sons base - to get the leaders of Tyrian nations to communicate and support the Pact.

@"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:Which is hilariously contradicted by the base game, but then again, LWS1 didn't have the best writing coughscarletcough Not to mention its even refuted later when the Pact starts working against the Mantle in places like Bloodstone Fen.

Except that it wasn't contradicted at all. They joined situations A and B because it benefited their fight against the Elder Dragons. They didn't join situation C because there was no (obvious at the time) benefit for their fight against the Elder Dragons.

With the Mantle, the bandits had assaulted the Pact crew who were investing Mordrem presence in the Spirit Vale. They were only retaliating in Bloodstone Fen, reasons unclear but Bennett likely went against typical Pact protocol given before he went there he "notified the queen" (and could get away with it given how disorganized the Pact likely was with no more clear chain of command). So again, they didn't involve themselves in non-dragon affair; non-dragon affairs involved them. And the Pact won't just take a beating, like any sane person.

So similarly, unless Joko attacks them or is for some reason empowering Kralkatorrik or in the way of the Pact fighting Kralkatorrik, the Pact will not get involved with Joko. Unless Logan changes Pact policy.

[Bast.7253]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:Stopping Joko himself would mean stopping his armies and the plague, since that is what he is using to attack Tyira. Joko himself is seemingly unkillable, so trying to stop him personally would be a waste of time. You also wouldn't just take the plague itself somewhere with you, that would be dumb on Joko's part. You would keep it in a secure location, and then use something like gates to move it to other places. Joko isn't going to just be walking around with the whatever he plans to use to spread it, and thus, we would be better off going to wherever he is keeping it, and destroying it there, then trying to play whack-a-mole in places he releases it.

Stopping the armies alone isn't going to stop Joko. So obviously we'll have to go after Joko directly.

That's like saying in Star Wars the Rebels intended to stop the Death Star without trying to blow up the Death Star but go after the ground soldiers.

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:Its still their main base, and nothing has stated they have moved from there. Getting your airship fleet destroyed doesn't mean you just leave the base you have been established in for years. Especially not when its as secure as Fort Trinity is.

In Season 2, Trahearne stated that the bulk of the Pact army moved to prepare for fighting Kralkatorrik, and we see them move to Camp Resolve later. They would divert the majority of their forces to the biggest threat, not just 1/3rd or whatever of them.

That's why throughout Heart of Thorns we were presented with the notion that the Pact has been decimated. Not just the Pact Fleet, but the Pact itself.

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:Except they got themselves involved with the Inquest, Flame Legion, and Krait, back in vanilla, and even The Pact themselves admitted not dealing with Scarlet was a mistake on their part, and got tons of flack from everyone for not getting involved, and were afterwards like "we wont make that mistake again"

They stopped Inquest studying the Elder Dragons. They assaulted Flame Legion and krait in hopes of obtaining troops and weapons that could help against the Elder Dragons (Gaheron's rumored weapon which turned out to be his "godform" and the blue orb respectively). They actively

avoided

interacting with Scarlet's various armies because they gained nothing out of it to help fight the Elder Dragons. I don't recall any dialogue where they got flack for not fighting Scarlet, or where they admitted it was a mistake - the moment a dragon got involved, so did they.

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:No it doesn't. The Forsaken Thicket raid wings are totally separate from the games other map, and don't touch anything around them. They are perfectly boxed off just like everything else.

Go into Salvation Pass in to the area between Slothasor and Bandit Trio. You end up walking over Spirit Vale's maps before you hit the map boundaries. The world map doesn't line up with the game itself, with Salvation Pass going further west than the world map.

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:Yes, and I am referencing the map changes made in this update

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/7h2nm9/changes_made_to_the_worldmap/

And you can see from the included map that shows the changed pixels that none of the areas you mention were part of that update.

Again these images:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/archive/4/46/20171202191644%21Tyria_map_%28clean%29.jpg

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/4/46/Tyria_map_%28clean%29.jpg

Both of which came from that_shaman. You can very easily tell where pixels got updated.

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:HoT gave us air travel via gliders, PoF was all about land travel via mounts, so it makes sense that expansion 3 would be underwater travel.

That's simply delusional at this point in time.

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that the Elder Dragons aren't really great villains because they aren't really "evil", or really have much personality. They are intimidating as forces of nature, like a hurricane is, but that isn't the same kind of story people enjoy in game stories.

This was the original presentation from the game created on the basis that Tyrians don't know much about Elder Dragons. In other words, an unreliable narrator.

We could see even in Orr that this wasn't the case, that the Elder Dragons did have personalities, were definitely evil, and were more than mere forces of nature.

As we get more involved in the dragon plot, I feel like we're to see the dragon personalities get displayed more and more. And that would evolve the plot in a different manner than Zhaitan or even Mordremoth.

I don't think ArenaNet intends to use the remaining Elder Dragons as mere stepping stones for other plots. That too greatly diminishes the nature of the Elder Dragons themselves.

They’ve used all the other elder dragons as “stepping stones” though. Zhaitan basically was a stepping stone into the base game, Mordremoth into Heart of Thorns. The idea of Balth killing Kralk ad a stepping stone into Elona. Before that Balth going after Primordus as a stepping stone to the stepping stone of Balth going after Kralk in Elona.

Pretty sure you’ve insisted Kralk would be the focus in the next expansion meaning he’s a stepping stone to the next expansion.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@"cptaylor.2670" said:They’ve used all the other elder dragons as “stepping stones” though. Zhaitan basically was a stepping stone into the base game, Mordremoth into Heart of Thorns. The idea of Balth killing Kralk ad a stepping stone into Elona. Before that Balth going after Primordus as a stepping stone to the stepping stone of Balth going after Kralk in Elona.

Pretty sure you’ve insisted Kralk would be the focus in the next expansion meaning he’s a stepping stone to the next expansion.

I do not think the phrase "stepping stones" means what you thin kit means.

In general, stepping stones are the path one takes to reach a destination. In terms of narrative, the stepping stones would be the conflicts faced before the climax. Zhaitan and Mordremoth were not stepping stones because they were the climax - in other words, they are what any stepping stones (Blightghast and the formation of the Pact leading to Zhaitan, the Egg and the World Summit leading to Mordremoth, etc.) led to.

And if Kralkatorrik were to be the focus and climax of the next expansion, then Kralkatorrik couldn't be a stepping stone either.

[Tyson.5160]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@"cptaylor.2670" said:They’ve used all the other elder dragons as “stepping stones” though. Zhaitan basically was a stepping stone into the base game, Mordremoth into Heart of Thorns. The idea of Balth killing Kralk ad a stepping stone into Elona. Before that Balth going after Primordus as a stepping stone to the stepping stone of Balth going after Kralk in Elona.

Pretty sure you’ve insisted Kralk would be the focus in the next expansion meaning he’s a stepping stone to the next expansion.

I do not think the phrase "stepping stones" means what you thin kit means.

In general, stepping stones are the path one takes to reach a destination. In terms of narrative, the stepping stones would be the conflicts faced before the climax. Zhaitan and Mordremoth were not stepping stones because they were the climax - in other words, they are what any stepping stones (Blightghast and the formation of the Pact leading to Zhaitan, the Egg and the World Summit leading to Mordremoth, etc.) led to.

And if Kralkatorrik were to be the focus and climax of the next expansion, then Kralkatorrik couldn't be a stepping stone either.

So expansion is roughly what 18 months away. During that time we are going to be dealing with Kralkatorrik in some capacity. Either killing and replacing him or he shows up for another expansion, which seems really drawn out. Next expansion will be approximately Fall 2019, meaning the story progressing into 2020. Seems like a lot of time devoted to Kralkatorrik, unless we kill him at the start of the next expansion.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

@Tyson.5160 said:Seems like a lot of time devoted to Kralkatorrik, unless we kill him at the start of the next expansion.^This.

Assuming we get 7ish LWS4 releases, by the time the next expansion comes out, we would have spent TWO YEARS in Elona, messing around with Balthazar, Joko, and Kralkatorik. That is getting somewhat excessive, and trying to push any narrative tied to them beyond that will just drag. As it stands, we have already started to undermine Joko's rule in Elona by killing off many of his supporters, and breaking down many of his operations, in events like-Deadhouse-Junundu Rising-Our attack on the Bonestrand Garrison, and the Elimination of the Clanmarshal and Vizier-Killing the high Judges in Vabbi, and helping un-poison the minds of the students at the Academy-Our collecting of the Desert/Vabbi Sunspears, and the rebuilding of the Vabbi Sunspear Sanctuary-Helping the Istani Sunspears raid Palawadan, and the Mordant Crescent Great HallNot to mention our destruction of the two gate hubs he was using to invade central Tyria, and all the forces he lost there, as part of the main story missions. And If my Gandara and Jahai/Waterworks suspicions turn out to be true, we will next neutralize the Scarab Plague, attack the largest fortress in Elona, and likely lead the Kournans in some sort of raid on the Waterworks, breaking Joko's primary hold on the region, which is his control of the water flowing into Kourna.

While none of these things is a deal ender for Joko, the combined losses, as well as the loses he took against the Forged and Branded while he was away, and the general rebellious attitude of the people, will likely leave him too crippled, and too busy trying to regain control of a land slipping from his fingers, to be a viable threat to Central Tyria after his living world season is over. It's very plausable to see them wrapping up Joko, Elona, and Kralkatorik, by this season's end.

[Bast.7253]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@"cptaylor.2670" said:They’ve used all the other elder dragons as “stepping stones” though. Zhaitan basically was a stepping stone into the base game, Mordremoth into Heart of Thorns. The idea of Balth killing Kralk ad a stepping stone into Elona. Before that Balth going after Primordus as a stepping stone to the stepping stone of Balth going after Kralk in Elona.

Pretty sure you’ve insisted Kralk would be the focus in the next expansion meaning he’s a stepping stone to the next expansion.

I do not think the phrase "stepping stones" means what you thin kit means.

In general, stepping stones are the path one takes to reach a destination. In terms of narrative, the stepping stones would be the conflicts faced before the climax. Zhaitan and Mordremoth were not stepping stones because they were the climax - in other words, they are what any stepping stones (Blightghast and the formation of the Pact leading to Zhaitan, the Egg and the World Summit leading to Mordremoth, etc.) led to.

And if Kralkatorrik were to be the focus and climax of the next expansion, then Kralkatorrik couldn't be a stepping stone either.

The focus shifts constantly throughout the story. We killed Mordremoth with Heart of Thorns, then with living world the event of his death gave way to everything we have now. How are you determining what the climax or the focus is with a story that's living and always changing? Dividing it up between Expansion. Living World. Expansion. Living world. etc? Because that's the only way I see your point.

How do you determine the climax with a living season like 3 when several different episodes resolve several different plots and could each be considered a climax?

And Kralk was a stepping stone into Path of Fire via Balthazar's pursuit. Balthazar was, if I'm following the same logic, the focus of Path of Fire, putting Kralk as just a device to draw Balthazar and us to Elona.

All I'm getting at is that it wouldn't be the first time elder dragons have been used as "stepping stones" or bridges, or whatever loosely defined term you want to use to acknowledge that their presence was a catalyst for something later in the story.

But thank you for clarifying the semantics, as usual.

[Tyson.5160]

@"cptaylor.2670" said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@"cptaylor.2670" said:They’ve used all the other elder dragons as “stepping stones” though. Zhaitan basically was a stepping stone into the base game, Mordremoth into Heart of Thorns. The idea of Balth killing Kralk ad a stepping stone into Elona. Before that Balth going after Primordus as a stepping stone to the stepping stone of Balth going after Kralk in Elona.

Pretty sure you’ve insisted Kralk would be the focus in the next expansion meaning he’s a stepping stone to the next expansion.

I do not think the phrase "stepping stones" means what you thin kit means.

In general, stepping stones are the path one takes to reach a destination. In terms of narrative, the stepping stones would be the conflicts faced before the climax. Zhaitan and Mordremoth were not stepping stones because they were the climax - in other words, they are what any stepping stones (Blightghast and the formation of the Pact leading to Zhaitan, the Egg and the World Summit leading to Mordremoth, etc.) led to.

And if Kralkatorrik were to be the focus and climax of the next expansion, then Kralkatorrik couldn't be a stepping stone either.

The focus shifts constantly throughout the story. We killed Mordremoth with Heart of Thorns, then with living world the event of his death gave way to everything we have now. How are you determining what the climax or the focus is with a story that's living and always changing? Dividing it up between Expansion. Living World. Expansion. Living world. etc? Because that's the only way I see your point.

How do you determine the climax with a living season like 3 when several different episodes resolve several different plots and could each be considered a climax?

And Kralk was a stepping stone into Path of Fire via Balthazar's pursuit. Balthazar was, if I'm following the same logic, the focus of Path of Fire, putting Kralk as just a device to draw Balthazar and us to Elona.

All I'm getting at is that it wouldn't be the first time elder dragons have been used as "stepping stones" or bridges, or whatever loosely defined term you want to use to acknowledge that their presence was a catalyst for something later in the story.

But thank you for clarifying the semantics, as usual.

We have gone over a lot of the key plot points of Kralkatorrik’s story in Path if Fire as well as being advised of his weakness. The only real thing missing is a rematch with Destiny’s Edge. If Kralkatorrik isn’t killed this season, I would wonder the purpose of the next expac, with still dealing with the Crystal Dragon.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@Tyson.5160 said:So expansion is roughly what 18 months away. During that time we are going to be dealing with Kralkatorrik in some capacity. Either killing and replacing him or he shows up for another expansion, which seems really drawn out. Next expansion will be approximately Fall 2019, meaning the story progressing into 2020. Seems like a lot of time devoted to Kralkatorrik, unless we kill him at the start of the next expansion.

If we assume 6 episodes for Season 4, with 2 month cadence, then we're seeing the next 4 episodes in 7 months (given 1 has passed since E2 already). So Expansion 3 will be out in 9 months. Worst case scenario, they start taking 3 month cadences, meaning 11 months for Episode 6, and 14 months for Expac3.

And honestly, its no more time devoted to Kralkatorrik than what got devoted to Mordremoth. Seasons 1 and 2, as well as Heart of Thorns. From September 2012 (or January 2013 if you want to start with Flame and Frost and Scarlet's plot), to October 2015. That's a full 32 / 36 months for Mordremoth.

Meanwhile, we didn't start a focus into Kralkatorrik until Path of Fire, released September 2017. If we assume 6 episode season again with 3 month release cadence, and dealing with Kralkatorrik in Expac3, thus a release of May 2019. That'd just be 21 months.

Still "a lot of time devoted" to an Elder Dragon? Even one with arguably the strongest standing with the playerbase (love or hate) due to how long its been part of the background lore (first seen in GW1, part of Edge of Destiny).

Honestly, Kralkatorrik always came off to me as being "the de facto Elder Dragon fight". Giving it a proper plot rather than "oh it's just a side thing until BAM WE KILL IT OUT OF NOWHERE" seems like the proper way to go.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree though.

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:Seems like a lot of time devoted to Kralkatorrik, unless we kill him at the start of the next expansion.^This.

Assuming we get 7ish LWS4 releases, by the time the next expansion comes out, we would have spent TWO YEARS in Elona, messing around with Balthazar, Joko, and Kralkatorik. That is getting somewhat excessive, and trying to push any narrative tied to them beyond that will just drag.

We spent how many years in Central Tyria? From 2012 to 2017.

Two years for three plots (Balth, Joko, Kralk) doesn't seem like much, compared to five years for four plots (Zhaitan, Scarlet, Mordy, White Mantle).

@"cptaylor.2670" said:The focus shifts constantly throughout the story. We killed Mordremoth with Heart of Thorns, then with living world the event of his death gave way to everything we have now. How are you determining what the climax or the focus is with a story that's living and always changing? Dividing it up between Expansion. Living World. Expansion. Living world. etc? Because that's the only way I see your point.

The climax of Season 2Heart of Thorns was very clearly fighting Mordremoth, even if the overarching plot continued on. Similarly, the climax for the personal story was fighting Zhaitan, and the climax for Season 3/Path of Fire was fighting Balthazar.

@"cptaylor.2670" said:How do you determine the climax with a living season like 3 when several different episodes resolve several different plots and could each be considered a climax?

Both Season 2 and Season 3 were treated as 'the first half' of a plot. They didn't really have climaxes so much as cliffhangers, as their plots' climax was in the subsequent expansion. So far, only Season 1 had its own climax, which was fighting Scarlet in Lion's Arch.

Given how they restrict Seasons to the prior expansion, I feel this is a bad methodology of storytelling, but it is what they do. Since they decided to do expansions, the prior LW Season was a lead in - a stepping stone plot, a cliffhanger for, whatever phrase you wish to use - for the next expansion.

In other words, if they continue the trend they've used twice, Season 4 will build into Expansion 3.

@"cptaylor.2670" said:And Kralk was a stepping stone into Path of Fire via Balthazar's pursuit. Balthazar was, if I'm following the same logic, the focus of Path of Fire, putting Kralk as just a device to draw Balthazar and us to Elona.

We never dealt with Kralkatorrik in Path of Fire. We barely interacted with him and its minions in the story. Kralkatorrik was a side story, not a stepping stone. We did not use Kralkatorrik to get to Balthazar.

If anything was a stepping stone for Balthazar's plot, it was the White Mantle and Lazarus. Maybe one can argue Primordus and Jormag, but the important part there even if you do consider such, is that they're still alive and can be brought back whenever the writers feel like it.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:Two years for three plots (Balth, Joko, Kralk) doesn't seem like much, compared to five years for four plots (Zhaitan, Scarlet, Mordy, White Mantle).That depends on how you look at it. I don't consider the Mordremoth plot to be Central Tyria because its mentioned that the areas of the Silverwastes, and Dry Top, have been cut off for quite some time. HoT at least is outside of central Tyira.

[Tyson.5160]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:So expansion is roughly what 18 months away. During that time we are going to be dealing with Kralkatorrik in some capacity. Either killing and replacing him or he shows up for another expansion, which seems really drawn out. Next expansion will be approximately Fall 2019, meaning the story progressing into 2020. Seems like a lot of time devoted to Kralkatorrik, unless we kill him at the start of the next expansion.

If we assume 6 episodes for Season 4, with 2 month cadence, then we're seeing the next 4 episodes in 7 months (given 1 has passed since E2 already). So Expansion 3 will be out in 9 months. Worst case scenario, they start taking 3 month cadences, meaning 11 months for Episode 6, and 14 months for Expac3.

And honestly, its no more time devoted to Kralkatorrik than what got devoted to Mordremoth. Seasons 1 and 2, as well as Heart of Thorns. From September 2012 (or January 2013 if you want to start with Flame and Frost and Scarlet's plot), to October 2015. That's a full 32 / 36 months for Mordremoth.

Meanwhile, we didn't start a focus into Kralkatorrik until Path of Fire, released September 2017. If we assume 6 episode season again with 3 month release cadence, and dealing with Kralkatorrik in Expac3, thus a release of May 2019. That'd just be 21 months.

Still "a lot of time devoted" to an Elder Dragon? Even one with arguably

the

strongest standing with the playerbase (love or hate) due to how long its been part of the background lore (first seen in GW1, part of Edge of Destiny).

Honestly, Kralkatorrik always came off to me as being "the de facto Elder Dragon fight". Giving it a proper plot rather than "oh it's just a side thing until BAM WE KILL IT OUT OF NOWHERE" seems like the proper way to go.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree though.

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:Seems like a lot of time devoted to Kralkatorrik, unless we kill him at the start of the next expansion.^This.

Assuming we get 7ish LWS4 releases, by the time the next expansion comes out, we would have spent TWO YEARS in Elona, messing around with Balthazar, Joko, and Kralkatorik. That is getting somewhat excessive, and trying to push any narrative tied to them beyond that will just drag.

We spent how many years in Central Tyria? From 2012 to 2017.

Two years for three plots (Balth, Joko, Kralk) doesn't seem like much, compared to five years for four plots (Zhaitan, Scarlet, Mordy, White Mantle).

@"cptaylor.2670" said:The focus shifts constantly throughout the story. We killed Mordremoth with Heart of Thorns, then with living world the event of his death gave way to everything we have now. How are you determining what the climax or the focus is with a story that's living and always changing? Dividing it up between Expansion. Living World. Expansion. Living world. etc? Because that's the only way I see your point.

The climax of Season 2Heart of Thorns was very clearly fighting Mordremoth, even if the overarching plot continued on. Similarly, the climax for the personal story was fighting Zhaitan, and the climax for Season 3/Path of Fire was fighting Balthazar.

@"cptaylor.2670" said:How do you determine the climax with a living season like 3 when several different episodes resolve several different plots and could each be considered a climax?

Both Season 2 and Season 3 were treated as 'the first half' of a plot. They didn't really have climaxes so much as cliffhangers, as their plots' climax was in the subsequent expansion. So far, only Season 1 had its own climax, which was fighting Scarlet in Lion's Arch.

Given how they restrict Seasons to the prior expansion, I feel this is a bad methodology of storytelling, but it is what they do. Since they decided to do expansions, the prior LW Season was a lead in - a stepping stone plot, a cliffhanger for, whatever phrase you wish to use - for the next expansion.

In other words, if they continue the trend they've used twice, Season 4 will build into Expansion 3.

@"cptaylor.2670" said:And Kralk was a stepping stone into Path of Fire via Balthazar's pursuit. Balthazar was, if I'm following the same logic, the focus of Path of Fire, putting Kralk as just a device to draw Balthazar and us to Elona.

We never dealt with Kralkatorrik in Path of Fire. We barely interacted with him and its minions in the story. Kralkatorrik was a side story, not a stepping stone. We did not use Kralkatorrik to get to Balthazar.

If anything was a stepping stone for Balthazar's plot, it was the White Mantle and Lazarus.

Maybe

one can argue Primordus and Jormag, but the important part there even if you do consider such, is that they're still alive and can be brought back whenever the writers feel like it.

I think Season 4 will probably be longer, since the cadence of expac to living world has changed. Ep 1 S4 came out a couple months after expac 2. If it takes them roughly two years per expac and we have two episodes done we are probably looking at way more episodes then Season 3. We are probably looking at 9 to 10 episodes for this season leading into Expac 3.

With Mordremoth they had their work cut out for them. We have this unknown dragon that we have next to no information on. We had 8 episodes of Living World and then 4 Acts of Heart of Thorns, which we were incredibly shallow. With that time they had to introduce a dragon, introduce its minions, introduce how it makes minions and also throw in the Sylvari angle.

The difference we have with Kralkatorrik is that we already have him introduced, just based in the Edge of Destiny, we know his minions they were introduced in the same novel. We also get to fight Kralkatorrik’s minions and Lieutenant in Tyria as well as in the personal story. The Dungeon story also provides some details as well. Really information on Kralkatorrik has been around since release and we are now dealing with him five years later for at the very least until next year. Path of Fire also gave us some big reveals as well and provided us with some further insight and a weakness. We also deal with the spear from the novel. Another neat thing is that Kralkatorrik was physically revealed to us in the PoF finale and he’s not dead, which is different from the treatment Zhaitan and Mordremoth received.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:That depends on how you look at it. I don't consider the Mordremoth plot to be Central Tyria because its mentioned that the areas of the Silverwastes, and Dry Top, have been cut off for quite some time. HoT at least is outside of central Tyira.

I would consider the Maguuma part of Central Tyria, since "Central Tyria" is typically interchangeable with the "continent Tyria" which in turn typically refers to everywhere visited in Prophecies/Eye of the North (so Kryta, Ascalon, Orr, Maguuma Jungle/Wastes, Ring of Fire, northern Crystal Desert, Northern/Southern/Far Shiverpeaks, Blood Legion Homelands, and Woodland Cascades; arguably also Janthir).

And while largely unexplored by the sovereign nations, it wasn't cut off (as evident by how many sylvari, Inquest, White Mantle etc. were out there).

@"Tyson.5160" said:I think Season 4 will probably be longer, since the cadence of expac to living world has changed. Ep 1 S4 came out a couple months after expac 2. If it takes them roughly two years per expac and we have two episodes done we are probably looking at way more episodes then Season 3. We are probably looking at 9 to 10 episodes for this season leading into Expac 3.

The delay for Season 3 was largely due to them planning things out and re-establishing their team set up, however. All hands were on making Heart of Thorns after Season 2's completion, while with Season 3 and Path of Fire, the S3 teams went right to making S4, and the PoF team went right to Expac3.

So I don't think it is a case of "it takes ArenaNet 2 years to make an expansion" but rather that resource and team management resulted in Expac2 happening 2 years after Expac1. After all, such an assumption of it taking 2 years would imply Heart of Thorns development began around August 2013. And I'm fairly certain that is not the case.

As for the rest, I'll just have to fall back to "we'll have to agree to disagree" because honestly it feels like that's just circular discussion at this point. We might have spent time learning about Kralkatorrik but the spotlight was never on Kralkatorrik itself, even with the finale of PoF, Kralkatorrik was still treated with less attention that Primordus got in Season 3.

The only way I see us taking on Kralkatorrik is if they did an asspull with a true Taimi Ex Machina that could solve the Kralkatorrik and The All problems all at one (which honestly shouldn't be possible given the established lore).

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:And while largely unexplored by the sovereign nations, it wasn't cut off (as evident by how many sylvari, Inquest, White Mantle etc. were out there).By this same measure the Crystal Desert and Elona weren't cut off because the Order of Whispers had some secret passage that way. That is not how the cut "ct off" is usually used, and you know that.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:And while largely unexplored by the sovereign nations, it wasn't cut off (as evident by how many sylvari, Inquest, White Mantle etc. were out there).By this same measure the Crystal Desert and Elona weren't cut off because the Order of Whispers had some secret passage that way. That is not how the cut "ct off" is usually used, and you know that.

Elona was cut off in the sense there was a trade embargo against it, as official trade was removed when Joko conquered Elona, and official travel routes were blocked by order of governments. This never happened to the Maguuma as there was no trade going there. It's simply that the sovereign nations, such as the asura or Kryta, never had reason to travel that way.

So it's not the same.

We know that various adventurers were able to get to the Crystal Desert despite the blockage (Whispers, Priory, Destiny's Edge, and refugees to name the most obvious), but the nations had officially restricted access for entering and leaving Elona. They never did so for the Maguuma Wastes or Heart of Maguuma, they just never sponsored such travel since there was no known reason to travel there.

On a similar topic: Cantha was cut off due to Zhaitan's fleet preventing naval trade to Cantha. Though one could argue that Kryta could have sent ships through Janthir Bay and around the western coast of the Maguuma, they apparently never did (perhaps the deep sea dragon prevents such? Unclear.). Unlike Elona, Cantha isn't suffering from a trade embargo or the like, as Cantha retained trade contact up until Zhaitan's rise (per the novel Sea of Sorrows).

[Tyson.5160]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@"Tyson.5160" said:I think Season 4 will probably be longer, since the cadence of expac to living world has changed. Ep 1 S4 came out a couple months after expac 2. If it takes them roughly two years per expac and we have two episodes done we are probably looking at way more episodes then Season 3. We are probably looking at 9 to 10 episodes for this season leading into Expac 3.

The delay for Season 3 was largely due to them planning things out and re-establishing their team set up, however. All hands were on making Heart of Thorns after Season 2's completion, while with Season 3 and Path of Fire, the S3 teams went right to making S4, and the PoF team went right to Expac3.

So I don't think it is a case of "it takes ArenaNet 2 years to make an expansion" but rather that resource and team management resulted in Expac2 happening 2 years after Expac3. After all, such an assumption of it taking 2 years would imply Heart of Thorns development began around August 2013. And I'm fairly certain that is

not

the case.

I take it you mean Expac 1 instead of expac 2 and expac 2 when mentioned expac 3. I thought they said in a development video that they started to work on Path of Fire immediately after Heart of Thorns.

[Tyson.5160]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:So expansion is roughly what 18 months away. During that time we are going to be dealing with Kralkatorrik in some capacity. Either killing and replacing him or he shows up for another expansion, which seems really drawn out. Next expansion will be approximately Fall 2019, meaning the story progressing into 2020. Seems like a lot of time devoted to Kralkatorrik, unless we kill him at the start of the next expansion.

If we assume 6 episodes for Season 4, with 2 month cadence, then we're seeing the next 4 episodes in 7 months (given 1 has passed since E2 already). So Expansion 3 will be out in 9 months. Worst case scenario, they start taking 3 month cadences, meaning 11 months for Episode 6, and 14 months for Expac3.

And honestly, its no more time devoted to Kralkatorrik than what got devoted to Mordremoth. Seasons 1 and 2, as well as Heart of Thorns. From September 2012 (or January 2013 if you want to start with Flame and Frost and Scarlet's plot), to October 2015. That's a full 32 / 36 months for Mordremoth.

Meanwhile, we didn't start a focus into Kralkatorrik until Path of Fire, released September 2017. If we assume 6 episode season again with 3 month release cadence, and dealing with Kralkatorrik in Expac3, thus a release of May 2019. That'd just be 21 months.

Yeah I don’t think we will have another expansion in 9 months, which would make December. Even May seems soon. I am going imagine they will stick with a Fall 2019 release date. Now hopefully we will get an expansion announcement in May and do the elite specs announcements week by week and make it a halfway point of “too much time waiting” for HoT and “no real hype” for PoF.

Just to get back to box design for next expac, I don’t think they will reuse the reddy purple dragon again if we do face off against Kralkatorrik, which is clearly what the box art is depicting. I would hope they would make him fly off to a different continent and come back to him in another 5 years if that were the case.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Elona was cut off in the sense there was a trade embargo against it,Uhh no, Elona was cut off because of the Branded and the Risen blocking all access to it, not because the governments went "we wont deal with Joko!"

[Tyson.5160]

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Elona was cut off in the sense there was a trade embargo against it,Uhh no, Elona was cut off because of the Branded and the Risen blocking all access to it, not because the governments went "we wont deal with Joko!"

Bit of both actually. Excerpt from Movement of the World:

“They work with the Krytans and Ascalonians, and even maintain a presence in Elona, although crossing the Crystal Desert is currently impossible due to Palawa's stranglehold over the southern reaches and the desert dragon's presence in the northern desert.”

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@"Tyson.5160" said:I take it you mean Expac 1 instead of expac 2 and expac 2 when mentioned expac 3. I thought they said in a development video that they started to work on Path of Fire immediately after Heart of Thorns.

Meant "So I don't think it is a case of "it takes ArenaNet 2 years to make an expansion" but rather that resource and team management resulted in Expac2 happening 2 years after Expac1. " Aka PoF happening 2 years after HoT was due not to how fast Anet can make expansions, but rather due to the management allocations that occurred at the end of HoT's development.

@"Tyson.5160" said:Yeah I don’t think we will have another expansion in 9 months, which would make December. Even May seems soon. I am going imagine they will stick with a Fall 2019 release date. Now hopefully we will get an expansion announcement in May and do the elite specs announcements week by week and make it a halfway point of “too much time waiting” for HoT and “no real hype” for PoF.

Just to get back to box design for next expac, I don’t think they will reuse the reddy purple dragon again if we do face off against Kralkatorrik, which is clearly what the box art is depicting. I would hope they would make him fly off to a different continent and come back to him in another 5 years if that were the case.

We'll just have to disagree with the timespan of expansion releases too, I suppose. I do not think that 14 months minimum is too short of a timespan between expansions. 2 years is certainly too long of a gap, especially given the format of storytelling that Seasons 2 and 3 gave us, which were lead ins to the next expansion. If Season 4 deals with killing both Joko and Kralkatorrik (or otherwise removing them from the plot for an unmentioned but lengthy period of time), then what plot would it lead into?

Unless ArenaNet completely changes the set up they've established over the past four years, I don't see us ending our climactic battles in a LW Season. Ever. Regardless of timespan of releases.

Every box art has been a pretty generic dragon. They all use the same head, only the neck changes. And technically that head only mirrors Jormag's depictions in the game.

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Elona was cut off in the sense there was a trade embargo against it,Uhh no, Elona was cut off because of the Branded and the Risen blocking all access to it, not because the governments went "we wont deal with Joko!"

sigh Pay attention to dialogue:

First Mate Fidus Foecrush: Our navigational charts didn't say nothing about gigantic pyramids. Didn't think our info was so out-of-date.

: It's been hard for cartographers to keep up. This entire region has been in **lockdown since Palawa Joko took over.**I mean, seriously, it's the first set of dialogue in the first instance of the expansion.Kralkatorrik couldn't completely block land access because it was isolated in a small pocket of the Desert Highlands. And Zhaitan only blocked naval access via the Strait of Malchor - refugees got to Central Tyria despite Zhaitan for a century after it woke up.Yes, Zhaitan and Kralkatorrik were involved in why it got cut off, but [the final say](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Desert_Gate_Guard) was the governments of Central Tyria. They had enforced a trade embargo of sorts with Elona, and closed down official travel routes that existed *despite* the Elder Dragons' presence.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Kralkatorrik couldn't completely block land access because it was isolated in a small pocket of the Desert HighlandsExcept its explicitly mentioned by NPCs in Amnoon that the Branded cut off all their northern trade routeshttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Free_City_of_AmnoonMerchant (1): Is there any profit in trading these days?Merchant (2): Once we only had to worry about paying our protection money to the Hamaseen and our taxes to the council.Merchant (2): Then came the Branded migration across our northern trade routes.

This is backed up by the NPC standing right outside the Elonian side of the trailhttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Tigmi

Stop! The tunnel's closed. There's no passage north to Ebonhawke this way. You can thank the Branded. And no, we're not going to clear it out. We don't have the resources to move this much rock

And the NPCs on the Tyrian side as wellhttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Desert_Gate_Guard

This gate's closed for the security of Ebonhawke. I can't let anyone pass without orders from Captain Samuelsson or Queen Jennah herself.Why, exactly?This gate serves as a barrier against the Branded. They're still streaming south through the mountains toward their master Kralkatorrik, wherever it is now.

And the map also

The Branded are what blocked off land access to the desert and Elona, because the Brand serves as a shield that none can safely pass, this is why the Queen had the desert gate closed, monsters and dark things in the desert and what not.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Except its explicitly mentioned by NPCs in Amnoon that the Branded cut off all their northern trade routes

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Free_City_of_Amnoon

Merchant (1): Is there any profit in trading these days?Merchant (2): Once we only had to worry about paying our protection money to the Hamaseen and our taxes to the council.Merchant (2): Then came the Branded migration across our northern trade routes.

That's not referring to trade with Central Tyria, but the Desert Highlands' nomads. Elonians didn't have trade with Tyrians for centuries. Hell, it's even said in Ghosts of Ascalon novel based before GW2's events.

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:This is backed up by the NPC standing right outside the Elonian side of the trailhttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Tigmi

Stop! The tunnel's closed. There's no passage north to Ebonhawke this way. You can thank the Branded. And no, we're not going to clear it out. We don't have the resources to move this much rock

And the NPCs on the Tyrian side as well

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Desert_Gate_Guard

This gate's closed for the security of Ebonhawke. I can't let anyone pass without orders from Captain Samuelsson or Queen Jennah herself.Why, exactly?This gate serves as a barrier against the Branded. They're still streaming south through the mountains toward their master Kralkatorrik, wherever it is now.

Looks like the Desert Gate Guards' dialogue got updated. Curious. Though I would like to point out a bit from the historical dialogue: "We've been unable to contact Elona since its last refugees fled the desert to Divinity's Reach."

If you went to DR, and talked to the tour guide NPC in Ossan Quarter, he tells you that it's been 50 years since any refugees fled the desert and reached Tyria. Kralkatorrik did not wake up that long ago, but 5 years ago as of release which those NPCs reference. Ergo, contact with Elona was severed over 45 years before Kralkatorrik awoke.

However, that still doesn't change the very direct line I quoted.

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:And the map alsohttps://i.imgur.com/28mUUJG.jpg

The Branded are what blocked off land access to the desert and Elona, because the Brand serves as a shield that none can safely pass, this is why the Queen had the desert gate closed, monsters and dark things in the desert and what not.

You do realize that there's land access via the Shiverpeaks, right? Particularly through Judgment Rock, Labyrinthine Cliffs, and Fortune's Vale?

Kralkatorrik holds no sway over there. Nor was there risen presence in that corner of Mount Maelstrom either.

And it's not like the Shiverpeaks are impassable.

[Tyson.5160]

@"Konig Des Todes.2086Unless ArenaNet completely changes the set up they've established over the past four years, I don't see us ending our climactic battles in a LW Season. Ever. Regardless of timespan of releases.

Mmmmm, I don’t t know Konig, beating Scarlet on the Breachmaker surrounded by a destroyed Lions Arch was a pretty cinematic battle and that was after the crazy events that turned the city into a battlefield. Even if the devs were unsure if they were going to doing living updates or an expansion. They could change the formula up, so they don’t fall into patterns,like how they changed things up for Path of Fire.

Guess time will tell.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:That's not referring to trade with Central Tyria, but the Desert Highlands' nomads. Elonians didn't have trade with Tyrians for centuries. Hell, it's even said in Ghosts of Ascalon novel based before GW2's events.Except that's blatantly untrue, as the path to the desert highland Nomads isn't in any way affected by the branded. The nomads live out in the salt flats outside Makali Outpost, which isn't being harassed by the Branded. And there is still easy access to all the other Desert Highland communities as well. Also, the books say a lot of things that are no longer true, like Kralkatorik having flesh, instead of being a giant rock monster.

Map

 

If you went to DR, and talked to the tour guide NPC in Ossan Quarter, he tells you that it's been 50 years since any refugees fled the desert and reached Tyria.Also incorrect, what they say ishttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Divinity_GuideDivinity Guide: Many fled during Palawa Joko's terrible ravages, fifty years ago, and were glad to have found a home here in Kryta.They mention many fled 50 years ago, not that none have fled since then.

You do realize that there's land access via the Shiverpeaks, right?Except there is no known current land access via the Shiverpeaks, and Elona/Tyria. There is even a Priory team, assisted by the stone dwarf Rhoban, studying Dwarven ruins in Fortune's Vale, because no one has been able to get to that area for years. This after Ogden mentions in the "Sparking the Flame" prologue that he is sending a Priory team to the desert area to study many of the things there, and mentions wondering if Dwarven culture had any impact on the people, and the Priory team leader says they had heard rumor of the ruins, and that it was Ogden who bugged them to go.

There is no known land access from the Shiverpeaks to Elona that currently exists, and many NPCs make it clear. Judgement Rock doesn't GO anywhere that we know of, and the Zypherite's Cliffs aren't directly connected to either location(we got there by ship if you remember, not via walking.)

[Tyson.5160]

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:That's not referring to trade with Central Tyria, but the Desert Highlands' nomads. Elonians didn't have trade with Tyrians for centuries. Hell, it's even said in Ghosts of Ascalon novel based before GW2's events.Except that's blatantly untrue, as the path to the desert highland Nomads isn't in any way affected by the branded. The nomads live out in the salt flats outside Makali Outpost, which isn't being harassed by the Branded. And there is still easy access to all the other Desert Highland communities as well. Also, the books say a lot of things that are no longer true, like Kralkatorik having flesh, instead of being a giant rock monster.

Map

 

If you went to DR, and talked to the tour guide NPC in Ossan Quarter, he tells you that it's been 50 years since any refugees fled the desert and reached Tyria.Also incorrect, what they say is

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Divinity_Guide

Divinity Guide: Many fled during Palawa Joko's terrible ravages, fifty years ago, and were glad to have found a home here in Kryta.They mention many fled 50 years ago, not that none have fled since then.

You do realize that there's land access via the Shiverpeaks, right?Except there is no known current land access via the Shiverpeaks, and Elona/Tyria. There is even a Priory team, assisted by the stone dwarf Rhoban, studying Dwarven ruins in Fortune's Vale, because no one has been able to get to that area for years. This after Ogden mentions in the "Sparking the Flame" prologue that he is sending a Priory team to the desert area to study many of the things there, and mentions wondering if Dwarven culture had any impact on the people, and the Priory team leader says they had heard rumor of the ruins, and that it was Ogden who bugged them to go.

There is no known land access from the Shiverpeaks to Elona that currently exists, and many NPCs make it clear. Judgement Rock doesn't GO anywhere that we know of, and the Zypherite's Cliffs aren't directly connected to either location(we got there by ship if you remember, not via walking.)

There is also this.

Citizen (1): I'm so tired of hearing about all these bandit attacks. I should move someplace nicer, like Elona.Citizen (2): Elona? We haven't heard from them in decades. It might be nicer, if anyone's still there, but with Orr so close...Citizen (1): Oh. Right. Well, what about Cantha, then? Surely they can't have it that bad.Citizen (2): The tengu were the last ones to make that trip. But that was over a century ago, and they were leaving. And they went right past—Citizen (1): Orr, right. Well, I guess the bandits aren't that bad.