Is It Just Me Or Do Other Classes Do Thief Better?

[Gatvin.6510]

@omgdracula.6345 said:

@Gatvin.6510 said:

@Alatar.7364 said:

@Gatvin.6510 said:I'd rather not argue about the thief being a 1v1 specialist. That's not a practical thing to care about in this game anymore. You'll get some amount of 1v1s in PvP, and some small amount that actually matters in WvW, and 1v1 isn't a thing in PvE, so trying to argue the thief should be a 1v1 specialist is like saying thief should only be useful in 1/15th of the game.

We are talking PvP here and Skill gamemode splits have been a thing for months now, so don't bring in PvE arguments, it has literally nothing to do with it nor does "1v1 is not practical" that one makes particularly no sense since that simply can not justify Thiefs current state when it was always ment to be 1v1 in PvP.

EDIT: It's PvP where 1v1s matter not WvW at all.

I keep seeing people (not you say PVP doesn't produce reliable 1v1 situations (which is mostly correct I find) and that WvW is the place to try 1v1 (not that they often matter there). The point I was trying to make is that 1v1 in PVP AND WVW is a small part of those game modes and not a hugely important one either. Even in PvP where a 1v1 CAN have meaning, going into one purely to kill your opponent is mostly reckless unless you're in lower ranks and can reliably faceroll whoever because they're bad.

As far as the Mode Splitting on skills goes, that's not the be-all end all solution. Its a way they have of keeping a class feeling the same while not ruining one of the modes. If they were to fix the theif through mode-splitting its skills, it would be like adding 2 new classes to the game. Over the course of the thread the conversation has occasionally brought PVE up, and I do feel its worth mentioning that thief's focus on single targets has had negative impact there as well. Remember when daggers couldn't cleave?

The real joke here is that many other classes do 1v1 better than thief already because they AREN'T specialized into 1v1 fighting. I feel like the only thing thief "gets" for being focused on 1v1 is "being worse than other classes".

I would argue the point that 1v1 is actually pretty important in PvP. There are a decent amount of times where someone will have to 1v1 to keep a point controlled until a +1 shows up or they will 1v1 to try and capture a point. For thief being as pigeonholed into a +1 as it is, being able to 1v1 would make it a bit more viable. There are plenty of times on thief where I go to backcap and an enemy shows up and I just wasted time because thief can't 1v1 really anything at the moment.

If you spend your time at mid 1v1s definitely seem rare, but the side points where thiefs operate at mostly 1v1 is pretty important. You're either back capping before an enemy shows up, or you are hoping your teammate you are going to +1 can 1v1 well enough for you to get there.

I don't THINK we disagree. I thought I covered that in my post with "Even in PvP where a 1v1 CAN have meaning, going into one purely to kill your opponent is mostly reckless unless you're in lower ranks and can reliably faceroll whoever because they're bad." The 1v1 that occurs isn't something a thief does effectively outside evade condi builds because stealth prevents you from holding points(as it should). Most 1v1s are, as you say stalling for map control.

And this again is why thief is all backwards. Thief loses so much be "specced" for single targets that it can't even do that effectively.

[Jack Redline.5379]

The main problem about the Thief i see is that everyone who plays it sees it as something else. Everytime i post something i would like to change i get salted down by someone who disagrees. For example i am a big fan of condi theif. Traps are cool too. If i would post here i would like Anet to improve poison traits etc. Some power stealth thief would run in and say that is bullshit because thief needs to stealth etc. I think that a whole group of thief ppl should unite on one or a few things that actually really need to be changed in terms of improving both classes dps and survivability because so far we are all just rambling around yelling what each of us wants. We cant get a change like this. We need to unite on a certain points we want to change.Such as elementalists decided they want sword main hand in game. There was simply too many of them wanting the same thing so Anet did it.We as well must unite on the changes we want for Thief. So please try not to salt each other down everytime someone has idea. Lets put up a list of things we really want to change and lets figure out how exactly do we want them to be changed. I would put up a thread about this myself but i am not respected enough person in forums so i would ask maybe the dracula dude to do it he is well known from what i see he has 4 stars so please do itThieves unite.Or we wont get anywhere. Please. thank you

[omgdracula.6345]

@Jack Redline.5379 said:The main problem about the Thief i see is that everyone who plays it sees it as something else. Everytime i post something i would like to change i get salted down by someone who disagrees. For example i am a big fan of condi theif. Traps are cool too. If i would post here i would like Anet to improve poison traits etc. Some power stealth thief would run in and say that is kitten because thief needs to stealth etc. I think that a whole group of thief ppl should unite on one or a few things that actually really need to be changed in terms of improving both classes dps and survivability because so far we are all just rambling around yelling what each of us wants. We cant get a change like this. We need to unite on a certain points we want to change.Such as elementalists decided they want sword main hand in game. There was simply too many of them wanting the same thing so Anet did it.We as well must unite on the changes we want for Thief. So please try not to salt each other down everytime someone has idea. Lets put up a list of things we really want to change and lets figure out how exactly do we want them to be changed. I would put up a thread about this myself but i am not respected enough person in forums so i would ask maybe the dracula dude to do it he is well known from what i see he has 4 stars so please do itThieves unite.Or we wont get anywhere. Please. thank you

I don't think anyone here is against any thief builds, I think we are all against other professions encroaching on what the thief was meant to do. We all picked thief because we liked the idea of being bursty, or we liked being to stack conditions while being evasive. I mean hell I remember thief at release. D/D with caltrops scorp wire and whatever utility skill you wanted. Stacked up conditions and got out and watched stuff die.

But now we deal with mesmer just being a better thief. They are just as mobile and bring way more utility to PvP. Portal is HUGE. Why have a thief when that thief could be a second mesmer and bring portal or a 2nd portal and give your team massive map coverage.

We also do not provide any utility for our team at all. Look at scourge. A scourge can deal damage while also healing and being good at picking up downed team members.

This has happened with each expansion though. I think it is lack of ideas in the development aspect of the game. No new ideas are coming out. Deadeye was newish but we see how that turned out even after the rework.

Thief just wasn't allowed the power creep other classes were. Anything that we have had that gave us a fair edge has been nerfed. Dash got exhaustion added. Pulm Impact that awarded good play and punished spamming abilities got nerfed as well.

[Jack Redline.5379]

@omgdracula.6345 said:

@Jack Redline.5379 said:

I completely undersatnd i have the same issue with game rn but if we want it to be changed these small threads and calls for help wont help. We need to unite on something we can tell Anet so they can change it. Imagine you get X mails daily on forum and they are all complaining they want to fix their class. All of them are giving you a different ideas. All of them have different solution. All of them are not going to fix the game but are going to make it even less balanced because they want the best for their class. I can see ppl want change but we need to know specifically waht and how we want to change. And only then we can ask Anet to change it. Or it will cause more mess than there is rn

[bq pd.2148]

@Jack Redline.5379 said:

@omgdracula.6345 said:

@Jack Redline.5379 said:

I completely undersatnd i have the same issue with game rn but if we want it to be changed these small threads and calls for help wont help. We need to unite on something we can tell Anet so they can change it. Imagine you get X mails daily on forum and they are all complaining they want to fix their class. All of them are giving you a different ideas. All of them have different solution. All of them are not going to fix the game but are going to make it even less balanced because they want the best for their class. I can see ppl want change but we need to know specifically waht and how we want to change. And only then we can ask Anet to change it. Or it will cause more mess than there is rn

the issue is that there are differnt modes and in some different playstyles for the thief, so much that suggestions to just individual skills or traits will mostly find another thief disagreeing apart from the few that pretty much nobody uses or just in very very niche scenario. i think to better the thief in all modes he has to undergo core design changes or you can basically just switch some numbers here and there for the most part.i wish for a design change what i said in your thread fot that ..i think while i really like the initative system, the fact that we share one bar for 2 weaponsets is holding anet back from giving us stronger weapon skills. if we had slower ini gain but 1 ini bar for each weaponset, then we still could spamm one skill but not as long and would need to swap weapon like any other class, this would give the option for strong weapon skills without risking that people will make a build just around 1 skill, like unload spamm. together with this our weaponskills when dual wield could be changed all of them not just skill 3. as i think p/p as well as d/d do both lack some identity.

[reikken.4961]

It's just an issue of Mesmer being grossly overpowered

[Jack Redline.5379]

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Jack Redline.5379 said:

@omgdracula.6345 said:

@Jack Redline.5379 said:

the issue is that there are differnt modes and in some different playstyles for the thief, so much that suggestions to just individual skills or traits will mostly find another thief disagreeing apart from the few that pretty much nobody uses or just in very very niche scenario. i think to better the thief in all modes he has to undergo core design changes or you can basically just switch some numbers here and there for the most part.i wish for a design change what i said in your thread fot that ..i think while i really like the initative system, the fact that we share one bar for 2 weaponsets is holding anet back from giving us stronger weapon skills. if we had slower ini gain but 1 ini bar for each weaponset, then we still could spamm one skill but not as long and would need to swap weapon like any other class, this would give the option for strong weapon skills without risking that people will make a build just around 1 skill, like unload spamm. together with this our weaponskills when dual wield could be changed all of them not just skill 3. as i think p/p as well as d/d do both lack some identity.

yes i agree d/d and p/p and staff all have really rotation worthy of a tardie it could use some more variety. The point is if Anet decides to change it if the skills we will be given will still be able to hold up to what the builds were meant for. You know if we for example have condi d/d DD build which has a certain rotation cahnging weapon skills would change rotation as well and also the outcome of it. I would preffer lowering cost for attacks. Imo 4ini for Death blossom is way too much. Or they should give us some means to restore ini i mean we have two skills for that Roll for ini and Mercy so far which really isnt enough.

[omgdracula.6345]

@Jack Redline.5379 said:

@omgdracula.6345 said:

@Jack Redline.5379 said:

I completely undersatnd i have the same issue with game rn but if we want it to be changed these small threads and calls for help wont help. We need to unite on something we can tell Anet so they can change it. Imagine you get X mails daily on forum and they are all complaining they want to fix their class. All of them are giving you a different ideas. All of them have different solution. All of them are not going to fix the game but are going to make it even less balanced because they want the best for their class. I can see ppl want change but we need to know specifically waht and how we want to change. And only then we can ask Anet to change it. Or it will cause more mess than there is rn

This isnt so much an issue since skills have been split. Traits and such though could be an issue.

[Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497]

@Jack Redline.5379 said:

@omgdracula.6345 said:

@Jack Redline.5379 said:

I completely undersatnd i have the same issue with game rn but if we want it to be changed these small threads and calls for help wont help. We need to unite on something we can tell Anet so they can change it. Imagine you get X mails daily on forum and they are all complaining they want to fix their class. All of them are giving you a dedifferent ideas. All of them have different solution. All of them are not going to fix the game but are going to make it even less balanced because they want the best for their class. I can see ppl want change but we need to know specifically waht and how we want to change. And only then we can ask Anet to change it. Or it will cause more mess than there is rn

This thread has 3.3k views, has been consistently at the top of the stack of threads surrounded by thief grievances saying that changes are badly needed. This thread poked several Anet employees to try and get a response. And is already at 4 pages when many other threads could get a reponse in the first page.

Combined with a whole mess of other threads saying that thieves are weak or don't contribute much in other locations. And complaints about thief's "role" in PvP and complaints about the directions of balance from people who play PvP. Complaints about the weaknesses thieves get for things that other classes do better without such weaknesses. The blatant lack of synchronization or all-round shitty utility in some of the weapons making D/P and S/D the go-to combos. One good utility. And only two means on core of bypassing other classes fucking passive defenses while having very little of their own. Traiting for more defences has a far more significant trade off even when most of them are still active. AA nerfs with no improvements to weapon skills. Meaningless buffs to CDs which were never the problem or the reason why they were avoided. I'd say thieves are pretty good damn United.

Either ANet doesn't care. Or they are trying to avoid jostling a bomb.

[omgdracula.6345]

For what it is worth

@Ben Phongluangtham.1065 @Karl McLain.5604 @Gaile Gray.6029 Can we please have any word on plans for thief? Maybe address some of the concerns we thief players have? I am sure all of us are more than happy to have a civil open dialogue with you guys. It also gives you guys a break from all those nerf mesmer threads. wink wink nudge nudge