Anet - Don't nerf Mirage, nerf Condi

[Sampson.2403]

@lilninja.8976 said:Mirage power builds can still almost instantly kill a 23k hp ranger in one combo. Literally die in 1 second.

Yeah but after the nerf a few patches back we gotta run two mantras, wear scholars and zerkers to pull that off which means giving up portal n being as glassy as it gets. Not to mention the burst is super obvious to see coming and avoid.

That was my main point of this thread is nerf condi mirage but leave the other mirage builds alone.

[Poelala.2830]

@Sampson.2403 said:

@lilninja.8976 said:Mirage power builds can still almost instantly kill a 23k hp ranger in one combo. Literally die in 1 second.

Yeah but after the nerf a few patches back we gotta run two mantras, wear scholars and zerkers to pull that off which means giving up portal n being as glassy as it gets. Not to mention the burst is super obvious to see coming and avoid.

That was my main point of this thread is nerf condi mirage but leave the other mirage builds alone.

I don’t see how a 23k burst from stealth is easy to see coming, and I don’t know how stunbreak dodges is ‘as glassy as it gets’.

[EpicTurtle.8571]

@Poelala.2830 said:

@Sampson.2403 said:

@lilninja.8976 said:Mirage power builds can still almost instantly kill a 23k hp ranger in one combo. Literally die in 1 second.

Yeah but after the nerf a few patches back we gotta run two mantras, wear scholars and zerkers to pull that off which means giving up portal n being as glassy as it gets. Not to mention the burst is super obvious to see coming and avoid.

That was my main point of this thread is nerf condi mirage but leave the other mirage builds alone.

I don’t see how a 23k burst from stealth is easy to see coming, and I don’t know how stunbreak dodges is ‘as glassy as it gets’.

Simple, you see the Mesmer, you see him stealth, count to 3 and dodge. Burst avoided.

[Poelala.2830]

@EpicTurtle.8571 said:

@Poelala.2830 said:

@Sampson.2403 said:

@lilninja.8976 said:Mirage power builds can still almost instantly kill a 23k hp ranger in one combo. Literally die in 1 second.

Yeah but after the nerf a few patches back we gotta run two mantras, wear scholars and zerkers to pull that off which means giving up portal n being as glassy as it gets. Not to mention the burst is super obvious to see coming and avoid.

That was my main point of this thread is nerf condi mirage but leave the other mirage builds alone.

I don’t see how a 23k burst from stealth is easy to see coming, and I don’t know how stunbreak dodges is ‘as glassy as it gets’.

Simple, you see the Mesmer, you see him stealth, count to 3 and dodge. Burst avoided.

That works up until you fight a good Mesmer or even a smart one. And they aren’t a gimmick build, they have multiple bursts that deal more than 7k damage.

[Silinsar.6298]

@"Daishi.6027" said:People jump on mesmer for having to much evade when it boils down to 2 mirage cloaks, blurred frenzy, and distortion.The evade is just the most noticeable thing about Mirage which makes people's feeling of being unable to fight back apparent.

The problem, not necessarily performance- but design-wise with Mirage is that it's all about negating and discouraging any counter play instead of rewarding it. There's a lot on Mirage that feels like breaking the rules of good combat design:

• CC (hard or soft, like immob) that is meant to prevent dodges doesn't work vs Mirage. They can dodge while CC'd or immobed (even without EM) and frequently port (which often acts as a semi-stunbreak, keeping you out of the area of danger until the CC ends). Mirages don't provide much windows of opportunity to hit them and usually you would capitalize such opportunities by hitting a CC, increasing the time frame in which you can reliably deliver your damage. Thieves dodge more but when you land a CC you at least get something out of it
• The drawback of having to cancel a skill you're currently casting and not being able to use others while dodging doesn't apply. This is something every other class has to deal with. Not only does this mean you can not force a Mirage from refraining from attacking and going into defense by counter-pressuring them, it also gives them an advantage in terms of time they can use to cast abilities. In combat, you're likely to dodge about once every 10 seconds, which means ~10% less time to use abilities. You also might be forced to dodge while casting a skill, loosing even more time. This also means baiting dodges isn't very effective vs Mirage since you don't make them lose time or an opportunity to deal damage.
• Casting a high impact skill with (higher than average) cast time doesn't come with as much risk to Mirage. Usually, every skill that doesn't provide a block or iframe you use is also a chance for the enemy to strike back (or force you to interrupt your own skill by dodging, as mentioned above).
• Many punishing Mirage skills don't have very good tells (with a few exceptions of course); it comes packed with a whole set of instants and clone/phantasm generation only emphasizes this problem
• Their prime conditions, confusion and torment, are the ones most discouraging for counterplay. If you manage to live vs a condi build until its defensive resources are depleted you're likely to suffer from additional damage if you want to take the opportunity to finally strike back
• Same thing applies to interrupt builds. You want to fight back in the rare occasions you can effectively do so, but that opens you up for even higher punishment.

Not saying all of these things shouldn't exist at all, many professions have something hard to counter and/or frustrating to fight against on them but not in that quantity, quality and frequency.Mirage should be a class that enables and rewards tricking people and gains value out of it. Instead it's a spec which feels like it's only beaten by its own mistakes, not by the skill of the opposing player. That's because many tactics and aspects of GW2 combat simply do not work vs Mirage (or only to a limited extent). Mirage requires skill, but due to it's design it's hard to "apply" skill vs. good Mirages.

So while other professions can achieve what Mirage does in some regards, they all feel like you can at least do more against it. E.g. a Mirage can jump, kill and maybe even finish someone while chaining invulnerability and port away. A Thief trying the same thing is at least partly vulnerable while delivering his burst and probably needs Shadowstep for the stomp (in which case you can still interrupt him if you have CC with range or time it so that it hits before he ports away / after he ports back). Disclaimer: I'm not saying this works every time or is easy to pull of, but this is a good example for a situation that can make people tilt (and understandably so). The outcome may mostly be the same, but not the feeling that sticks with you afterwards. Because you feel like you could've done something to retaliate against the Thief, even when he played perfectly, had you just used your skills better. Vs Mirage? Nope, that guy was invulnerable all the time he needed to be, while doing his stuff, there was no way to punish him without getting beaten even harder.

[Menzo.2185]

DO NOT NERF CONDI MIRAGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Poseidon.3852]

@Solori.6025 said:

@MithranArkanere.8957 said:

@EpicTurtle.8571 said:

@MithranArkanere.8957 said:Mirage needs to stop being able to use so many things during a mirage cloak.

Ambush skills, Deceptions, and any of the skills that can already be used during a normal dodge roll are perfectly ok, those should remain usable during a mriage cloak.Anything else is not ok. The main mesmer tool to avoid being interrupted is Distortion, and it does a wonderful job at doing that. Mirage Cloak should not give them extra uninterruptible uptime.

Mesmer as a whole needs a cap for phantasms. Removing them from the illusion cap was good, clones and phantasm needed to be separate so people did not had to choose between shatter and maintaining phantasms. But the split should have come with phantasms getting their own separate cap. Not because of phantasm power, but because of visual clutter. They can spam too much stuff on screen. They need to be slowed down. Phantasm power can later be improved if it's too low after getting their own cap, but the spam and visual noise has to go.

Being able to do things while dodging is the whole gimmick of the spec, give us a new gimmick or do something to our main one (shatters) if you're going to take it away.

At least you understand why the phantasm rework was done, but phantasms don't need their own separate cap because of one overperforming trait+skill combination on one elite spec.

No.

The main gimmick of the spec is looking more like a clone and being harder to tell apart from them.

That's actually incorrect, or half incorrect.Taken specifically from the Developer Showcase August 1 2017 And I quote"Their deception skills baffle enemies and create fragile constructs that shatter when touched creating mirage cloaks to avoid enemy attacks instead of dodging them."They basically made the entire spec around evasion, and deception. Taking action while dodging fits especially since clones also have the ability to gain mirage cloak.-

If "evasion and deception" are the main themes of the spec, then it shouldn't do so much damage, in my opinion. If evasion and deception are the main focus, then it should put a reasonable amount of condis, slowly but surely burning down the opponent's HP, while dodging, evading and deceiving to not die before the condis took care of the enemy.

In my opinion, conditions are great! Condi burst IS NOT... and condi burst on a spec that has so many tools for evasions at its disposal is inherently broken.

[otto.5684]

@Sampson.2403 said:Since everyone's complaining about condi mirage, please don't nerf mirage as a whole in order to nerf the over performing condi spam. You already nerfed power mirage a few patches back, and it is in a good spot.

Please enlighten me what condi builds are viable except mirage and scourge (hint, none).

[Abazigal.3679]

@otto.5684 said:

@Sampson.2403 said:Since everyone's complaining about condi mirage, please don't nerf mirage as a whole in order to nerf the over performing condi spam. You already nerfed power mirage a few patches back, and it is in a good spot.

Please enlighten me what condi builds are viable except mirage and scourge (hint, none).

These 2 builds in addition of condi thief are enough to make matchs non fun and have uncarriable situations. I've played 4 placement games and i already got enough watching people feeding (double) scourges or dying to a mirage i'm killing in 10 seconds.

I believe what he meant is the general way conditions are working, but we're going to hit some other problem : should the game be balanced around top level where conditions aren't an issue ( 1700+), or balanced around average level where conditions are making 50% games have a completly random winner ?

[Marxx.5021]

Anet does not care about PvP balancing anyway.

[Solo.6873]

@Poseidon.3852 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@MithranArkanere.8957 said:

@EpicTurtle.8571 said:

@MithranArkanere.8957 said:Mirage needs to stop being able to use so many things during a mirage cloak.

Ambush skills, Deceptions, and any of the skills that can already be used during a normal dodge roll are perfectly ok, those should remain usable during a mriage cloak.Anything else is not ok. The main mesmer tool to avoid being interrupted is Distortion, and it does a wonderful job at doing that. Mirage Cloak should not give them extra uninterruptible uptime.

Mesmer as a whole needs a cap for phantasms. Removing them from the illusion cap was good, clones and phantasm needed to be separate so people did not had to choose between shatter and maintaining phantasms. But the split should have come with phantasms getting their own separate cap. Not because of phantasm power, but because of visual clutter. They can spam too much stuff on screen. They need to be slowed down. Phantasm power can later be improved if it's too low after getting their own cap, but the spam and visual noise has to go.

Being able to do things while dodging is the whole gimmick of the spec, give us a new gimmick or do something to our main one (shatters) if you're going to take it away.

At least you understand why the phantasm rework was done, but phantasms don't need their own separate cap because of one overperforming trait+skill combination on one elite spec.

No.

The main gimmick of the spec is looking more like a clone and being harder to tell apart from them.

That's actually incorrect, or half incorrect.Taken specifically from the Developer Showcase August 1 2017 And I quote"Their deception skills baffle enemies and create fragile constructs that shatter when touched creating mirage cloaks to avoid enemy attacks instead of dodging them."They basically made the entire spec around evasion, and deception. Taking action while dodging fits especially since clones also have the ability to gain mirage cloak.-

If "evasion and deception" are the main themes of the spec, then it shouldn't do so much damage, in my opinion. If evasion and deception are the main focus, then it should put a reasonable amount of condis, slowly but surely burning down the opponent's HP, while dodging, evading and deceiving to not die before the condis took care of the enemy.

In my opinion, conditions are great! Condi burst IS NOT... and condi burst on a spec that has so many tools for evasions at its disposal is inherently broken.

I've been saying this for months. Condi burst should not exist in this game. Period

[Sampson.2403]

@otto.5684 said:

@Sampson.2403 said:Since everyone's complaining about condi mirage, please don't nerf mirage as a whole in order to nerf the over performing condi spam. You already nerfed power mirage a few patches back, and it is in a good spot.

Please enlighten me what condi builds are viable except mirage and scourge (hint, none).

I meant nerf condi mirage not mirage

[mortrialus.3062]

@Solori.6025 said:

@Poseidon.3852 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@MithranArkanere.8957 said:

@EpicTurtle.8571 said:

@MithranArkanere.8957 said:Mirage needs to stop being able to use so many things during a mirage cloak.

Ambush skills, Deceptions, and any of the skills that can already be used during a normal dodge roll are perfectly ok, those should remain usable during a mriage cloak.Anything else is not ok. The main mesmer tool to avoid being interrupted is Distortion, and it does a wonderful job at doing that. Mirage Cloak should not give them extra uninterruptible uptime.

Mesmer as a whole needs a cap for phantasms. Removing them from the illusion cap was good, clones and phantasm needed to be separate so people did not had to choose between shatter and maintaining phantasms. But the split should have come with phantasms getting their own separate cap. Not because of phantasm power, but because of visual clutter. They can spam too much stuff on screen. They need to be slowed down. Phantasm power can later be improved if it's too low after getting their own cap, but the spam and visual noise has to go.

Being able to do things while dodging is the whole gimmick of the spec, give us a new gimmick or do something to our main one (shatters) if you're going to take it away.

At least you understand why the phantasm rework was done, but phantasms don't need their own separate cap because of one overperforming trait+skill combination on one elite spec.

No.

The main gimmick of the spec is looking more like a clone and being harder to tell apart from them.

That's actually incorrect, or half incorrect.Taken specifically from the Developer Showcase August 1 2017 And I quote"Their deception skills baffle enemies and create fragile constructs that shatter when touched creating mirage cloaks to avoid enemy attacks instead of dodging them."They basically made the entire spec around evasion, and deception. Taking action while dodging fits especially since clones also have the ability to gain mirage cloak.-

If "evasion and deception" are the main themes of the spec, then it shouldn't do so much damage, in my opinion. If evasion and deception are the main focus, then it should put a reasonable amount of condis, slowly but surely burning down the opponent's HP, while dodging, evading and deceiving to not die before the condis took care of the enemy.

In my opinion, conditions are great! Condi burst IS NOT... and condi burst on a spec that has so many tools for evasions at its disposal is inherently broken.

I've been saying this for months. Condi burst should not exist in this game. Period

Confusion is the exception though and should be bursty based on how much people attack into it. The unique mechanism by which confusion get's it's damage means that it should have the potential to be extremely bursty. Torment to a lesser extent if the targets is moving.

The really problematic thing with condi mirage's damage output is the torch skills. They're incredibly over tuned, able to apply 10 stacks of burning for four seconds which depending on your set up is going to deal around 16-19k damage. Because burning is the most powerful condition in the game, arenanet rightly saw fit to change all the skills with burning that had multiple stacks and made them have less stacks but enough duration to equal the same damage they had before in that patch months ago Except mesmer torch skills which were buffed during the phantasm rework in a way that goes against this philosophy when it comes to burning by loaded potentially 6 stacks of burning from the two pulses of damage from Mesmer's Phantasmal Mage.

[EpicTurtle.8571]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@Poseidon.3852 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@MithranArkanere.8957 said:

@EpicTurtle.8571 said:

@MithranArkanere.8957 said:Mirage needs to stop being able to use so many things during a mirage cloak.

Ambush skills, Deceptions, and any of the skills that can already be used during a normal dodge roll are perfectly ok, those should remain usable during a mriage cloak.Anything else is not ok. The main mesmer tool to avoid being interrupted is Distortion, and it does a wonderful job at doing that. Mirage Cloak should not give them extra uninterruptible uptime.

Mesmer as a whole needs a cap for phantasms. Removing them from the illusion cap was good, clones and phantasm needed to be separate so people did not had to choose between shatter and maintaining phantasms. But the split should have come with phantasms getting their own separate cap. Not because of phantasm power, but because of visual clutter. They can spam too much stuff on screen. They need to be slowed down. Phantasm power can later be improved if it's too low after getting their own cap, but the spam and visual noise has to go.

Being able to do things while dodging is the whole gimmick of the spec, give us a new gimmick or do something to our main one (shatters) if you're going to take it away.

At least you understand why the phantasm rework was done, but phantasms don't need their own separate cap because of one overperforming trait+skill combination on one elite spec.

No.

The main gimmick of the spec is looking more like a clone and being harder to tell apart from them.

That's actually incorrect, or half incorrect.Taken specifically from the Developer Showcase August 1 2017 And I quote"Their deception skills baffle enemies and create fragile constructs that shatter when touched creating mirage cloaks to avoid enemy attacks instead of dodging them."They basically made the entire spec around evasion, and deception. Taking action while dodging fits especially since clones also have the ability to gain mirage cloak.-

If "evasion and deception" are the main themes of the spec, then it shouldn't do so much damage, in my opinion. If evasion and deception are the main focus, then it should put a reasonable amount of condis, slowly but surely burning down the opponent's HP, while dodging, evading and deceiving to not die before the condis took care of the enemy.

In my opinion, conditions are great! Condi burst IS NOT... and condi burst on a spec that has so many tools for evasions at its disposal is inherently broken.

I've been saying this for months. Condi burst should not exist in this game. Period

Confusion is the exception though and should be bursty based on how much people attack into it. The unique mechanism by which confusion get's it's damage means that it should have the potential to be extremely bursty. Torment to a lesser extent if the targets is moving.

The really problematic thing with condi mirage's damage output is the torch skills. They're incredibly over tuned, able to apply 10 stacks of burning for four seconds which depending on your set up is going to deal around 16-19k damage. Because burning is the most powerful condition in the game, arenanet rightly saw fit to change all the skills with burning that had multiple stacks and made them have less stacks but enough duration to equal the same damage they had before in that patch months ago Except mesmer torch skills which were buffed during the phantasm rework in a way that goes against this philosophy when it comes to burning by loaded potentially 6 stacks of burning from the two pulses of damage from Mesmer's Phantasmal Mage.

They're two of the most highly telegraphed abilities in the game and you get two instances to avoid damage from Torch 5. You can dodge the initial burst and negate the phantasm summon entirely or if you get hit by the initial burst you still get to dodge or interrupt the Mage itself. Torch 4 is the same dodging mechanism as the power shatter burst, count to 3 and dodge. They're both point blank as well and on a base 30 second cooldown. They're appropriately powerful and appropriately avoidable.

[mortrialus.3062]

@EpicTurtle.8571 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@Poseidon.3852 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@MithranArkanere.8957 said:

@EpicTurtle.8571 said:

@MithranArkanere.8957 said:Mirage needs to stop being able to use so many things during a mirage cloak.

Ambush skills, Deceptions, and any of the skills that can already be used during a normal dodge roll are perfectly ok, those should remain usable during a mriage cloak.Anything else is not ok. The main mesmer tool to avoid being interrupted is Distortion, and it does a wonderful job at doing that. Mirage Cloak should not give them extra uninterruptible uptime.

Mesmer as a whole needs a cap for phantasms. Removing them from the illusion cap was good, clones and phantasm needed to be separate so people did not had to choose between shatter and maintaining phantasms. But the split should have come with phantasms getting their own separate cap. Not because of phantasm power, but because of visual clutter. They can spam too much stuff on screen. They need to be slowed down. Phantasm power can later be improved if it's too low after getting their own cap, but the spam and visual noise has to go.

Being able to do things while dodging is the whole gimmick of the spec, give us a new gimmick or do something to our main one (shatters) if you're going to take it away.

At least you understand why the phantasm rework was done, but phantasms don't need their own separate cap because of one overperforming trait+skill combination on one elite spec.

No.

The main gimmick of the spec is looking more like a clone and being harder to tell apart from them.

That's actually incorrect, or half incorrect.Taken specifically from the Developer Showcase August 1 2017 And I quote"Their deception skills baffle enemies and create fragile constructs that shatter when touched creating mirage cloaks to avoid enemy attacks instead of dodging them."They basically made the entire spec around evasion, and deception. Taking action while dodging fits especially since clones also have the ability to gain mirage cloak.-

If "evasion and deception" are the main themes of the spec, then it shouldn't do so much damage, in my opinion. If evasion and deception are the main focus, then it should put a reasonable amount of condis, slowly but surely burning down the opponent's HP, while dodging, evading and deceiving to not die before the condis took care of the enemy.

In my opinion, conditions are great! Condi burst IS NOT... and condi burst on a spec that has so many tools for evasions at its disposal is inherently broken.

I've been saying this for months. Condi burst should not exist in this game. Period

Confusion is the exception though and should be bursty based on how much people attack into it. The unique mechanism by which confusion get's it's damage means that it should have the potential to be extremely bursty. Torment to a lesser extent if the targets is moving.

The really problematic thing with condi mirage's damage output is the torch skills. They're incredibly over tuned, able to apply 10 stacks of burning for four seconds which depending on your set up is going to deal around 16-19k damage. Because burning is the most powerful condition in the game, arenanet rightly saw fit to change all the skills with burning that had multiple stacks and made them have less stacks but enough duration to equal the same damage they had before in that patch months ago Except mesmer torch skills which were buffed during the phantasm rework in a way that goes against this philosophy when it comes to burning by loaded potentially 6 stacks of burning from the two pulses of damage from Mesmer's Phantasmal Mage.

They're two of the most highly telegraphed abilities in the game and you get two instances to avoid damage from Torch 5. You can dodge the initial burst and negate the phantasm summon entirely or if you get hit by the initial burst you still get to dodge or interrupt the Mage itself. Torch 4 is the same dodging mechanism as the power shatter burst, count to 3 and dodge. They're both point blank as well and on a base 30 second cooldown. They're appropriately powerful and appropriately avoidable.

You can be well telegraphed and over performing.

[Daishi.6027]

@Silinsar.6298 said:The evade is just the most noticeable thing about Mirage which makes people's feeling of being unable to fight back apparent.

The problem, not necessarily performance- but design-wise with Mirage is that it's all about negating and discouraging any counter play instead of rewarding it. There's a lot on Mirage that feels like breaking the rules of good combat design:

Before responding to examples I do want to make it clear that I believe Condi does do to much and needs shave on it's output. I feel the exact same way regarding condi thief, and it's ease of access to output on pretty much any attack. However I would like to make the case that since release, every other class has the tools it needs to outplay mesmer, and sometimes (some metas) mesmer is given every tool it needs to out play the rest of the roster. If I am correct in that assessment, I feel the times when both have every tool to outplay each other is fair.

@Silinsar.6298 said:

• CC (hard or soft, like immob) that is meant to prevent dodges doesn't work vs Mirage. They can dodge while CC'd or immobed (even without EM) and frequently port (which often acts as a semi-stunbreak, keeping you out of the area of danger until the CC ends). Mirages don't provide much windows of opportunity to hit them and usually you would capitalize such opportunities by hitting a CC, increasing the time frame in which you can reliably deliver your damage. Thieves dodge more but when you land a CC you at least get something out of it

I strongly disagree with the assertion of how effective CC is at disabling targets. On paper maybe, but a majoirty of the roster stacks stability way to easily, or has on demand ports much like the way mirage has. Without going into a line that will make it virtually impossible to kill anything in the meta (since the nerfs that were mostly aimed at chrono you are required to go into 2 lines that will support your damage regardless of power or condi spec,) this is just how mirage keeps up. Every other class escapes stuns, or make them a non issue to easily. Now possibly this is an issue with the current meta of the game, but mirage having jaunt and it's evades puts it on par. I can't remember the last time I as a thief, or me stunning a thief has not just resulted in getting away vs anything that wasn't a gimmick war build or holo.I've personally gotten to the point where outside of holo I've kind of just scrapped taking hard CC in exchange for more damage, or survivablity on most builds.

For counter play in my fights vs mirage on any other class (or I guess even mirror matches) this has actually been a fairly useful read for me. I know when my stun lands he will probably blow his doge in anticipation of my hit (and occasionally sometimes two). By intentionally delaying my attack unless he ports away I can make him waste his doge and land a hit. If he does port unless both my weapon sets are close range, and I have no way to close the gap like a thief or guard, I will still be able to hurt him. Yes the counter play is not 1 to 1, and involves reading beyond what is in front of you, but I think that thematically fits.It's also not asking to much by the games standards; if you play anything squishy how else would you ever beat a thief who can engage you instnatly without line of sight, or while within stealth without utilizing strong reads?

This brings me back to every class has the tools to out play a mirage, and that is fair.I don't think it's reasonable to claim something is OP when an individual does not put the work in to try to counter what they are fighting. I get this is just the defensive mechanic and that alone can't be judged for balance (unless it sits on a cap point and never dies) but I will address the offense further down.

@Silinsar.6298 said:

• The drawback of having to cancel a skill you're currently casting and not being able to use others while dodging doesn't apply. This is something every other class has to deal with. Not only does this mean you can not force a Mirage from refraining from attacking and going into defense by counter-pressuring them, it also gives them an advantage in terms of time they can use to cast abilities. In combat, you're likely to dodge about once every 10 seconds, which means ~10% less time to use abilities. You also might be forced to dodge while casting a skill, loosing even more time. This also means baiting dodges isn't very effective vs Mirage since you don't make them lose time or an opportunity to deal damage.
• Casting a high impact skill with (higher than average) cast time doesn't come with as much risk to Mirage. Usually, every skill that doesn't provide a block or iframe you use is also a chance for the enemy to strike back (or force you to interrupt your own skill by dodging, as mentioned above).

The time difference is minimal at best, the exception to this being the heal and phantasms. Mesmer weapons skills are fairly unimpactful.Take a look at any weapon set and the coefficients. (except maybe Axe which again is a problem with condi)Looking at a few staple weapons Sw/t, Staff, and GS:

Sw - Dogging during blurred frenzy is a waste, as is for illusionary leap. The only thing on sword worth dogging through is auto which becomes the leap when you doge. Torch - one is a stealth, the other is a phant; so, yes you may cover your 3/4 sec cast for a summon with a delay, and possible travel time, for a phant you can literally just walk through to avoid the attack, and is no longer a persistent constantly attacking entity.I don't think that is unfair.

Staff - Phase retreat, ofc not. Chaos Armor? lol you should expect to get hit. Chaos storm maybe but it's pretty reliable aegis and has a 1/4 cast time. Only the Warlock cast would you cover, and after the nerfs the only dangerous part is the vulnerability.... literally a 0.225 coefficient.

Greatsword - Unlike the other weapons can actually harm an enemy directly, it's kind of the only mesmer weapon that applies decent pressure without the phantasm and even then it's lacking compared to the rest of the roster.Mirror blade doesn't hurt to much 0.6 coe but it does set up for shatter, so being able to safely land this reliably is strong, but this is the only cover besides phant and heal that matters so far, and ONLY as part of a combo. For that exact same reason Mindstab at a 1.0 coe is not getting you much time. Illusionary wave? Okay maybe, that is a decent CC you are covering with a doge... but idk about you unless I have stability I'm usually going to avoid getting hit by that instead of attacking, so unless it's to cover their last bit of HP I'd much rather them blow their doge while casting it.... Which brings us back the the phants, Yes. They are again a good idea to cover, but still have a summon delay and sometimes travel time.

I emphasis the delay and travel time, since this was a major historic reason why mesmer couldn't compete with thief, and at the time meditation guard. It is to slow, way to telegraphed, leaves you open with no actual damage that covers you as the player until after your phantasms have gotten in range and started attacking. It was wayyyyy to easy for someone to interrupt or engage on a phant cast, and it was just to slow for a mesmer to do anything about it, when all of their other skills beyond shatters were unimpactful and did not apply pressure... the exception Maybe being chaos storm, and scepter 3.

Being able to cover your phants is strong, but without the utility and defenses of chrono, core which mirage is the closest alike in (engagement patterns) was kinda just dead just for using 1/2 it's damage, and the other half kind of needed this half, since it was part of the resource count.

Phantasm casts on their own are way to clunky for their "high impact" to not be cover-able, this is part of the reason why historic mesmer has been ONLY viable because of portal. Not because of it's damage to gank, not because of it's power in team fights, not because it could 1v1, it's roam was slow, most of it's viability was... Portal (and maybe moa). This made it objectively worse than thief until the rise of condi, and back then we had top players like supcutie ditching mes for thief for any tournament that mattered.

@Silinsar.6298 said:

• Many punishing Mirage skills don't have very good tells (with a few exceptions of course); it comes packed with a whole set of instants and clone/phantasm generation only emphasizes this problem
• Their prime conditions, confusion and torment, are the ones most discouraging for counterplay. If you manage to live vs a condi build until its defensive resources are depleted you're likely to suffer from additional damage if you want to take the opportunity to finally strike back
• Same thing applies to interrupt builds. You want to fight back in the rare occasions you can effectively do so, but that opens you up for even higher punishment.

Condi being the exception and why I agree with the topic "Anet - Don't nerf Mirage, nerf Condi" asideThere are two things to avoid at all costs.

1. Shatters
2. Phantasms

Yes there aren't many good tells for... Phase retreat? and... chaos armor... Illusionary leap is subtle, but the mesmer gets a food icon on their bar when you know they can port to you, but majority of those are also minimally impactful or pure utility. If anything them not having much of a animation is a boon for both players outside of getting lost in clones. But apart from target drop shenanigans with illusionary ambush, if you lose target and cannot find the real mesmer getting lost in clones while he slows his auto attack, and you panic or waste cooldowns on clones; That is on you. Might as well take away thief's stealth, or renew any cooldown whiffed anticipating their engage.

But going back to every build has every tool to play around mesmer, how hard is it to avoid shatters and phantasms? I have no problem unless randomly jumped which sucks to be caught with your pants down no matter what jumps you. (Excepet sustain eles?)Phantasms come out slow and are pretty telegraphed.Both are literally kite-able damage that you can kill. (Imagine hitting a thief took away steal, or ini... or Hitting a war removed adrenaline.)Shatters are telegraphed running at you, unless you let your opponent surround you with clones and you aren't reading the shatter, in which case you are not fighting how you should be, and you deserve to take the hit.Baseline on average you get 1 phant, 1 clone per weapon-set as ammo for the shatters.This really shouldn't be a problem for so many.

Honestly this stuff isn't to hard to play around.Yes unlike vs core and to an extent chrono you can't just walk away and live since mirage can reliably chase but it doesn't change the innate counterplay.The use of terrain is one I don't see utilized enough either, I don't know about the rest of you but if I find illusions of my opponent problematic, I'll just break LoS so they all run at me and die. Unlike thief the mesmer can't hit me through walls without illusionary leap and I can usually kill the clone before he can leap so lol. (and if I am a thief or guard vs a mes once his illusions run at me I'll gank the mes xD)

There is more than enough counter play here that EVERY class has access to, again every class is given the tools to play around mesmer/mirage/chrono. At the same time they have every tool to play around the rest of the roster.

(well at least most of the roster, and it depends if the meta even allows for it. Sometimes mesmer is not given that luxury, and yes I do think that is an imbalance. I like everyone having equal chance vs this class in stead of hard counters.)

@Silinsar.6298 said:Not saying all of these things shouldn't exist at all, many professions have something hard to counter and/or frustrating to fight against on them but not in that quantity, quality and frequency.

See parenthesizes above in relation to counters.Quantity is about the same as everyone else and less than others, quality is worse in a lot of ways, frequency is just the deception of illusions.

@Silinsar.6298 said:Mirage should be a class that enables and rewards tricking people and gains value out of it. Instead it's a spec which feels like it's only beaten by its own mistakes, not by the skill of the opposing player. That's because many tactics and aspects of GW2 combat simply do not work vs Mirage (or only to a limited extent). Mirage requires skill, but due to it's design it's hard to "apply" skill vs. good Mirages.

Mirage IS a class that enables, and rewards tricking people and gains value out of it. This is the result.Mirage doesn't need to make mistakes to lose this is a total misconception, although like in any fight that helps. However players constantly make the mistake of not fighting it properly and do lose. Mirage shouldn't be nerfed to accommodate that, players should have to fight it the proper way.Maybe there is an argument to be made revolving around conquest that does not make it feasible, but at the same time there are also counter arguments there can be made there too,but this post is long enough...

Plus 1 for 1 with a lot of classes I play and fighting against mesmer, as well as have having played mesmer since release being on both sides of the fight...I can get a way with a lot more mistakes as ele, thief, holo, ranger, historically guard (not so much anymore unless FB which I admit i haven't played much), and war.With mirage it's "ops I wasted that doge... I'm screwed if I don't back off" at which point I'd lose the point, which if we're balancing for conquest I call that "winning" the fight anyways.

Condi again has to much, Illusion line probably needs a going over, and axe might need to be looked at.Power Mirage is fine, there is more than enough counter play. It is not the fault of the mirage if people refuse to fight it properly.

[Apolo.5942]

Mesmer as a class is toxic for the game, there is precedent for this in other games, where companies have fully functional mechanics in the game but they make the game not fun, for instance counter spell magic in magic the gathering.

Their solution was to essentially nerf it into the ground.

@Silinsar.6298 said:The problem, not necessarily performance- but design-wise with Mirage is that it's all about negating and discouraging any counter play instead of rewarding it.

This has always been the case, it is not a problem with performance, its a problem with class design.The entire concept of the Mesmer is that for a little while you can not touch it, they either kill you before they run out of stuff or you kill them. Its toxic class dessign and it will remain so regardless of class balance, unless they nerf it into the ground.