Ranged should never outdamage melee

[Hot Boy.7138]

@Gehenna.3625 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Gehenna.3625 said:Yeah I thought the argument was that you get some other stuff to make up for the DPS loss. If that's not what you meant, then indeed I misunderstood.No, the argument was that melee having to stand near the boss is no reason for it to have superior dps, as there are other balancing factors involved.Notice, that it doesn't mean it should have inferior dps either.

Alrighty. Now the argument for melee DPS to have more DPS than ranged DPS is that melee are penalized because there tend to be a lot of effects happening close by bosses that they have to move a lot more. Once they move, they are out of range and have to get back into range or sometimes wait a few seconds for an effect to end. Under such circumstances during a fight that means that melee DPS cannot DPS as often or as long as ranged DPS who can still DPS on the move and at a safe range from some effects.

That's the reason for people wanting melee DPS to be higher since they cannot DPS as often as ranged DPS in essence. How do you feel about that?

I don't think you are considering what future boss designs will be like if ranged dps achieved similar dps to melee dps. Right now, if you haven't raided in other games, it's hard to imagine future encounters being designed offering challenges for ranged players. It would actually be healthier for the game in the long term for anet to have more options when designing boss encounters. Right now, keeping in mind that boonshare and heals can only be done when you are stacked, and everyone needs to be in melee for max damage, is actually limiting future content design. They could easily design fights that incorporates difficulty for ranged players, in addition to melee.

[Tails.9372]

@Gehenna.3625 said:Now the argument for melee DPS to have more DPS than ranged DPS is that melee are penalized because there tend to be a lot of effects happening close by bosses that they have to move a lot more.But that goes both ways because it's entirely dependant on the boss you're fighting against.

[Hot Boy.7138]

@Tails.9372 said:

@Gehenna.3625 said:Now the argument for melee DPS to have more DPS than ranged DPS is that melee are penalized because there tend to be a lot of effects happening close by bosses that they have to move a lot more.But that goes both ways because it's entirely dependant on the boss you're fighting against.

This is exactly what I'm saying. People are under the notion that melee will always be penalized because all the damage will always only be happening in melee range. that will not be the case if ranged becomes a viable, supported option.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Gehenna.3625 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Gehenna.3625 said:Yeah I thought the argument was that you get some other stuff to make up for the DPS loss. If that's not what you meant, then indeed I misunderstood.No, the argument was that melee having to stand near the boss is no reason for it to have superior dps, as there are other balancing factors involved.Notice, that it doesn't mean it should have inferior dps either.

Alrighty. Now the argument for melee DPS to have more DPS than ranged DPS is that melee are penalized because there tend to be a lot of effects happening close by bosses that they have to move a lot more. Once they move, they are out of range and have to get back into range or sometimes wait a few seconds for an effect to end. Under such circumstances during a fight that means that melee DPS cannot DPS as often or as long as ranged DPS who can still DPS on the move and at a safe range from some effects.

That's the reason for people wanting melee DPS to be higher since they cannot DPS as often as ranged DPS in essence. How do you feel about that?In most bosses it's not the case. Even if you have to move, you can move left or right, or behind the boss, and still be in melee range. And many effects are actually affecting only ranged players (Cairn shard attack, for example). For the rest it is balanced by existence of reflection effects on other mobs. Or by the range dps for some classes getting decreased as soon as the mob moves closer (which, by funny coincidence, they usually do).

It's all balanced. There's a reason ele was mostly melee-stacking even at the time when its most dps was coming from lava font and meteor storm. which could be done at range. It wasn't because attacking from range offered advantages, that's for sure.

[Gehenna.3625]

@Tails.9372 said:

@Gehenna.3625 said:Now the argument for melee DPS to have more DPS than ranged DPS is that melee are penalized because there tend to be a lot of effects happening close by bosses that they have to move a lot more.But that goes both ways because it's entirely dependant on the boss you're fighting against.

Well it can go both ways but the question is which way the game is skewed. And there are two parts to it. First of all there's the stuff that happens directly at the boss or directly around him which would only affect melee DPS. In those cases the melee DPS are at a disadvantage. This may not be the case in every boss fight but it is big disadvantage for melee DPS and then a group that looks to maximize DPS may decide against melee DPS in those fights. This is why a lot of MMOs, at least the other ones I've played do give melee more DPS.

Secondly there the things that are thrown around that also or only affect ranged DPS. The difference there is that ranged DPS do not need to stop DPS'ing or very shortly only when they move. So I would say that there is less of a disadvantage for ranged DPS because moving doesn't automatically mean being out of range, which is much more likely for melee DPS. So my first sense, is that your point that it goes both ways is not really a fair comparison since ranged can move away from damage and still DPS, whereas when melee move they are in many case out of range and therefore cannot DPS.

Now, I'm not making a judgment about GW2 because I have not experienced all fights but from what I've seen so far, it does seem to be a negative more for melee than ranged DPS to have to move out of damage. And based on that it seems fair that melee would have a bit higher DPS. But if it's truly a fact that it doesn't affect melee DPS more than ranged, then of course it should be the same. That's just not the feeling I get, but I'm open to learning differently if this is truly the case.

Which brings us to the next comment:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Gehenna.3625 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Gehenna.3625 said:Yeah I thought the argument was that you get some other stuff to make up for the DPS loss. If that's not what you meant, then indeed I misunderstood.No, the argument was that melee having to stand near the boss is no reason for it to have superior dps, as there are other balancing factors involved.Notice, that it doesn't mean it should have inferior dps either.

Alrighty. Now the argument for melee DPS to have more DPS than ranged DPS is that melee are penalized because there tend to be a lot of effects happening close by bosses that they have to move a lot more. Once they move, they are out of range and have to get back into range or sometimes wait a few seconds for an effect to end. Under such circumstances during a fight that means that melee DPS cannot DPS as often or as long as ranged DPS who can still DPS on the move and at a safe range from some effects.

That's the reason for people wanting melee DPS to be higher since they cannot DPS as often as ranged DPS in essence. How do you feel about that?In most bosses it's not the case. Even if you have to move, you can move left or right, or behind the boss, and still be in melee range. And many effects are actually affecting only ranged players (Cairn shard attack, for example). For the rest it is balanced by existence of reflection effects on other mobs. Or by the range dps for some classes getting decreased as soon as the mob moves closer (which, by funny coincidence, they usually do).

It's all balanced. There's a reason ele was mostly melee-stacking even at the time when its most dps was coming from lava font and meteor storm. which could be done at range. It wasn't because attacking from range offered advantages, that's for sure.

If what you say is indeed true then there is no need to change it. I am not sure if it's that balanced, as I do not play enough to make that judgment and someone saying it is so, is by itself not evidence, but you seem a reasonable person, so I think it's up to the OP to prove or explain at least why he feels he is at a disadvantage as a melee DPS in light of what you just said here.

That leaves one final issue though. Do you feel that ranged DPS do have an advantage in PvP or not?

[Astralporing.1957]

@Gehenna.3625 said:That leaves one final issue though. Do you feel that ranged DPS do have an advantage in PvP or not?It never felt that way to me. The advantages/disadvantages seem to be more tied to specific builds and classes, rather than melee/range types. But then, i have never considered myself to be a good spvp player.

[Gehenna.3625]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Gehenna.3625 said:That leaves one final issue though. Do you feel that ranged DPS do have an advantage in PvP or not?It never felt that way to me. The advantages/disadvantages seem to be more tied to specific builds and classes, rather than melee/range types. But then, i have never considered myself to be a good spvp player.

I haven't really PvP'ed in this game. In GW1 I did that a lot more. I know that ranged do have advantages in other games, but then they tend to give melee DPS higher numbers to make for the lack of range. Generally people can move or dodge out of the way and you miss in this game. So I dunno, I can imagine it being advantage in this game to be ranged in PvP but I just really don't know.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Gehenna.3625 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Gehenna.3625 said:That leaves one final issue though. Do you feel that ranged DPS do have an advantage in PvP or not?It never felt that way to me. The advantages/disadvantages seem to be more tied to specific builds and classes, rather than melee/range types. But then, i have never considered myself to be a good spvp player.

I haven't really PvP'ed in this game. In GW1 I did that a lot more. I know that ranged do have advantages in other games, but then they tend to give melee DPS higher numbers to make for the lack of range. Generally people can move or dodge out of the way and you miss in this game. So I dunno, I can imagine it being advantage in this game to be ranged in PvP but I just really don't know.

As far as i can see, it's way more complicated. Yes, there's an advantage in being able to stay outside of your opponent's attack range - problem is, in 1v1, you generally won't be able to accomplish that. There's way too many mobility options available for melee classes. And once that opponent gets into melee range, suddenly the situation changes and you may find that the advantage has shifted. In order to be effective in SPvP, you need to be able to deal with enemies that are up close and personal. Especially considering that the main goal of that mode is not to kill enemies, but rather to control capture points.

In WvW, in case of zerg versus zerg fights, it's a bit different. There, indeed, having a range option is a huge bonus, because getting too close can be dangerous. On the other hand, if your group wants to be able to deal with enemy groups on more reliable basis, it can't just consist of ranged players (although a pirate ship meta was a thing at some point).

Also, in all of the above i'm not going into power/condi damage difference, which muddles the case even more.

[Alchimist.4738]

The game has a good amount of gap closer, added to that several missile hate, and generally if you engage in melee such build they're not going to hold for long, now the question is, is your team good enough to realise that.

[Gehenna.3625]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Gehenna.3625 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Gehenna.3625 said:That leaves one final issue though. Do you feel that ranged DPS do have an advantage in PvP or not?It never felt that way to me. The advantages/disadvantages seem to be more tied to specific builds and classes, rather than melee/range types. But then, i have never considered myself to be a good spvp player.

I haven't really PvP'ed in this game. In GW1 I did that a lot more. I know that ranged do have advantages in other games, but then they tend to give melee DPS higher numbers to make for the lack of range. Generally people can move or dodge out of the way and you miss in this game. So I dunno, I can imagine it being advantage in this game to be ranged in PvP but I just really don't know.

As far as i can see, it's way more complicated. Yes, there's an advantage in being able to stay outside of your opponent's attack range - problem is, in 1v1, you generally won't be able to accomplish that. There's way too many mobility options available for melee classes. And once that opponent gets into melee range, suddenly the situation changes and you may find that the advantage has shifted. In order to be effective in SPvP, you

need

to be able to deal with enemies that are up close and personal. Especially considering that the main goal of that mode is

not

to kill enemies, but rather to control capture points.

In WvW, in case of zerg versus zerg fights, it's a bit different. There, indeed, having a range option is a huge bonus, because getting too close can be dangerous. On the other hand, if your group wants to be able to deal with enemy groups on more reliable basis, it can't just consist of ranged players (although a pirate ship meta

was

a thing at some point).

Also, in all of the above i'm not going into power/condi damage difference, which muddles the case even more.

Thanks for the insights. It does paint a clearer picture for me.