Ranged should never outdamage melee

[Ephemiel.5694]

@Chasind.3128 said:well, ele and thief are the most squish out of all of the classes, should they not do high damage?but ele was nerfed to oblivion with its only good range being destroyed because people didnt want to dodge a meteor shower

Being squishy or not shouldn't take priority over whether or not someone is using melee or range or else anything with heavy armor, by default, would be weak as hell.

[Dante.1763]

@Ephemiel.5694 said:In every game, especially in RPG, melee should always outdamage ranged since melee literally has to be in within range of the enemy's attacks.

Most RPGs ive played melee classes can also take those hits to be in that range, while ranged damage attacks do the same or more damage, but the caster/hunter/rogue(whatever you want to call it) takes a ton more damage from hits, and needs to be careful of being hit to make up for the damage they did, much like eles did prior to this patch.(now they dont do damage, cant take hits, and still need to be careful) So i fail to see the issue in GW2s setting.

[MedievalThings.5417]

@Ephemiel.5694 said:In every game, especially in RPG, melee should always outdamage ranged since melee literally has to be in within range of the enemy's attacks.

Yes, but melee should also have to choose between doing meaningful damage and surviving. Look at a ton of warrior builds, they can be full zerk or marauder (zerk + health) and still be full dps with tons of tank survival options, gap closers, and heavy armor. At least thief and holo are wearing medium. There are a lot of things broken in GW2 balance wise, the occasional ranged doing more damage than melee really isn't one of them.

[lLobo.7960]

@ProverbsofHell.2307 said:The recent Meteor Shower bug and Deadeye changes made me think about this a lot. I think it's really backwards that some of the highest damage in the game comes from ranged classes. In general, it is FAR harder to land a skill with tiny melee range than it is to dump a huge 1200 range AoE. Why is GW2 so backwards in this regard, and do you agree that melee should (in general) outdamage ranged due to requiring more skill and accuracy to land melee skills?

You are thinking about it into too simple terms. There is a lot more to it.

Meteor shower: Its a long cast skill, meaning you are very easily interrupted. It roots you in place, making you very vulnerable to use it. It's an AoE, with random dmg explosions, so people can avoid not only by block/dodge/invul, but also by walking out of it. So, it a risky skill to use as it makes you vulnerable and has a lot of counter-play. So to balance that, it hits hard, when it hits.Deaths judgment requires you to be on stealth, so you need some preparation to even use it, to achieve high dmg you need to consume high malice stacks, so you trade off a resource for dmg, and you have to be kneeling, so you trade off mobility, it also has a channel and its single target (so it can be blocked by anything on the way).

Also, those two skills, to reach really high numbers, require the two classes to focus heavily in dmg, abdicating nearly all defense. Ele is the squishiest class in the game, followed close by thief. Any defense they can get, its only obtainable by trading off dmg traits, mobility, or utilities that are required to achieve the high dps you see on benchmark videos.

On the other hand, a mesmer, fully spec in dps can still use his f4 to invul, a guardian will always have his shield of fate, a warrior will always have his beefy HP and armor, etc.No other class can (and has to) abdicate so much as an ele, close followed by thief, for dps (or support if you go healing tempest). And no other class dps is so completely dependent on external factors (flawless support and heals from group) as the ele dps.

[Tails.9372]

@"Ephemiel.5694" said:In every game, especially in RPG, melee should always outdamage ranged since melee literally has to be in within range of the enemy's attacks.Being "within range of the enemy's attacks" depends entirely on the enemy you're fighting against. There's a lot more to it as you want to make it out to be.

[Aridon.8362]

@Chasind.3128 said:well, ele and thief are the most squish out of all of the classes, should they not do high damage?but ele was nerfed to oblivion with its only good range being destroyed because people didnt want to dodge a meteor shower

It was noted that there was a typo int he scaling of metor shower that gave it double damage of 2.6 instead of 1.6 ;dodging it isn't and wasn't an issue.

[zealex.9410]

@Balsa.3951 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Balsa.3951 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Balsa.3951 said:

@zealex.9410 said:If you are ranged tho in ove u lose out on them sweet boons.

which boons u miss when u go solo?

In solo it doesnt mater what others or other builds do its solo, you play what you like.

OP ask about that range should not be more dmg than melee. I just kinda was thinking we stay on topic

Same, whcih isnt true for a part of the game. Staying in topic always.

ok lets say a ranged in one group than u dont miss out on those sweet boons..... So the Boon part Melee vs Ranged is not well working.

I say Ranged should never out dps melee except ranged builds forcing u to loose a lot of defensive stats to work. Risk vs Reward.

ps at least for my main class Guardian I feel Melee is higher dps than ranged.

If you are in boon range then the melee vs ranged arguement doesnt aply anymore. Ideally ud have encounters which benefit melee or ranged but all stack in melee range so its irrelevant what your capable of.

[Eloc Freidon.5692]

Ranger has more ongoing damage, range and a pet over thief. There is no balance from this simple example alone.

[Airdive.2613]

@Eloc Freidon.5692 said:Ranger has more ongoing damage, range and a pet over thief. There is no balance from this simple example alone.

So, how do I close the gap from as far as 2400 in two shadowsteps and keep spamming evades until the ranger is dead? Ranger is one of the easier targets in PvP for me.

[Jski.6180]

@"Ephemiel.5694" said:In every game, especially in RPG, melee should always outdamage ranged since melee literally has to be in within range of the enemy's attacks.

You mean mages? Melee in rpg where there for trash mobs so the mage could hold on to there mana for bosses. Melee where never strong vs bosses as there attks where simply too much to faces tank and do dmg at the same time.

It was odd that melee never got weak after using there attks over and over it dose take energy to move and to hit hard much like mana takes energy in its own way but less physically and more mentally.

Any way this should not be a class vs class talk this should be more about with in the class it self as in a melee war should hit harder then a ranged war or a "melee" ele should hit harder then a ranged ele. Its the only way your going to be able to get realy balance. So your ranged ele still may hit harder then your melee war as war is simply more tanked aimed then your ranged ele but the melee ele has to put a great deal of risk of being in melee so it should out dmg melee war and ranged ele.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Oglaf.1074 said:

@Hot Boy.7138 said:I would actually like it if ranged did the same damage as melee in pve. And if they updated their boon share system to have a larger radius

Then you might as well delete all melee weapons from the game.

Melee weapons do have the advantage of cleaving. And stacking helps with grouping mobs to better cleave them. Not to mention it helps with positioning enemies (if all are ranged, the enemy/enemies are going to move, they won't be standing quietly away from you after all).There's also more defensive options on melee weapons than on ranged ones (where they are not only rare, but also generally of lower quality).

[Gehenna.3625]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Oglaf.1074 said:

@Hot Boy.7138 said:I would actually like it if ranged did the same damage as melee in pve. And if they updated their boon share system to have a larger radius

Then you might as well delete all melee weapons from the game.

Melee weapons do have the advantage of cleaving. And stacking helps with grouping mobs to better cleave them. Not to mention it helps with positioning enemies (if all are ranged, the enemy/enemies are going to move, they won't be standing quietly away from you after all).There's also more defensive options on melee weapons than on ranged ones (where they are not only rare, but also generally of lower quality).

That sounds more like you're describing a tank than a melee DPS.

[Carighan.6758]

@"Oglaf.1074" said:Only time there is an issue would be their ranged options out-damaging their own melee options. Melee has the most risk, and should be the most rewarding in that regard.

The original design idea called for ranged to be single target (in general) and melee to hit 3 targets at a time (in general) leading to a balance which can eshew the "all stack on the boss"-issue.

Funny how that hasn't worked out at all because it was left to rot right at release. :pensive:

[Eloc Freidon.5692]

@Airdive.2613 said:

@Eloc Freidon.5692 said:Ranger has more ongoing damage, range and a pet over thief. There is no balance from this simple example alone.

So, how do I close the gap from as far as 2400 in two shadowsteps and keep spamming evades until the ranger is dead? Ranger is one of the easier targets in PvP for me.

I'm amazed that you can get through the second shadowstep before their Rapidfire downs you. If they activate it when you aren't stealth, you really can't avoid the rest of the hits. Overwhelming newbs with teleport and stealth spam isn't really reliable data for balance.

[Airdive.2613]

@Eloc Freidon.5692 said:

@Airdive.2613 said:

@Eloc Freidon.5692 said:Ranger has more ongoing damage, range and a pet over thief. There is no balance from this simple example alone.

So, how do I close the gap from as far as 2400 in two shadowsteps and keep spamming evades until the ranger is dead? Ranger is one of the easier targets in PvP for me.

I'm amazed that you can get through the second shadowstep before their Rapidfire downs you. If they activate it when you aren't stealth, you really can't avoid the rest of the hits. Overwhelming newbs with teleport and stealth spam isn't really reliable data for balance.

You must be joking. Shadowsteps are instant, your steal can interrupt said rapid fire, and then you can evade for days while counterattacking. And if these skills aren't available, you can reflect rapid fire unless you're facing a soulbeast.Newbs trying to overwhelm melee targets with a longbow aren't a reliable data source either.

[Tails.9372]

@Gehenna.3625 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Oglaf.1074 said:

@Hot Boy.7138 said:I would actually like it if ranged did the same damage as melee in pve. And if they updated their boon share system to have a larger radius

Then you might as well delete all melee weapons from the game.

Melee weapons do have the advantage of cleaving. And stacking helps with grouping mobs to better cleave them. Not to mention it helps with positioning enemies (if all are ranged, the enemy/enemies are going to move, they won't be standing quietly away from you after all).There's also more defensive options on melee weapons than on ranged ones (where they are not only rare, but also generally of lower quality).

That sounds more like you're describing a tank than a melee DPS.Having access to more active defences doesn't make you a tank unless that's what you want to call a daredevil.

[Ephemiel.5694]

@Jski.6180 said:

@"Ephemiel.5694" said:In every game, especially in RPG, melee should always outdamage ranged since melee literally has to be in within range of the enemy's attacks.

You mean mages? Melee in rpg where there for trash mobs so the mage could hold on to there mana for bosses. Melee where never strong vs bosses as there attks where simply too much to faces tank and do dmg at the same time.

It was odd that melee never got weak after using there attks over and over it dose take energy to move and to hit hard much like mana takes energy in its own way but less physically and more mentally.

Any way this should not be a class vs class talk this should be more about with in the class it self as in a melee war should hit harder then a ranged war or a "melee" ele should hit harder then a ranged ele. Its the only way your going to be able to get realy balance. So your ranged ele still may hit harder then your melee war as war is simply more tanked aimed then your ranged ele but the melee ele has to put a great deal of risk of being in melee so it should out dmg melee war and ranged ele.

....that's why tanks exist, so Melee won't get wrecked.

[Jski.6180]

@Ephemiel.5694 said:

@Jski.6180 said:

@Ephemiel.5694 said:In every game, especially in RPG, melee should always outdamage ranged since melee literally has to be in within range of the enemy's attacks.

You mean mages? Melee in rpg where there for trash mobs so the mage could hold on to there mana for bosses. Melee where never strong vs bosses as there attks where simply too much to faces tank and do dmg at the same time.

It was odd that melee never got weak after using there attks over and over it dose take energy to move and to hit hard much like mana takes energy in its own way but less physically and more mentally.

Any way this should not be a class vs class talk this should be more about with in the class it self as in a melee war should hit harder then a ranged war or a "melee" ele should hit harder then a ranged ele. Its the only way your going to be able to get realy balance. So your ranged ele still may hit harder then your melee war as war is simply more tanked aimed then your ranged ele but the melee ele has to put a great deal of risk of being in melee so it should out dmg melee war and ranged ele.

....that's why tanks exist, so Melee won't get wrecked.

But melee non tanks are not tankly.

[Ephemiel.5694]

@Jski.6180 said:

@Ephemiel.5694 said:

@Jski.6180 said:

@Ephemiel.5694 said:In every game, especially in RPG, melee should always outdamage ranged since melee literally has to be in within range of the enemy's attacks.

You mean mages? Melee in rpg where there for trash mobs so the mage could hold on to there mana for bosses. Melee where never strong vs bosses as there attks where simply too much to faces tank and do dmg at the same time.

It was odd that melee never got weak after using there attks over and over it dose take energy to move and to hit hard much like mana takes energy in its own way but less physically and more mentally.

Any way this should not be a class vs class talk this should be more about with in the class it self as in a melee war should hit harder then a ranged war or a "melee" ele should hit harder then a ranged ele. Its the only way your going to be able to get realy balance. So your ranged ele still may hit harder then your melee war as war is simply more tanked aimed then your ranged ele but the melee ele has to put a great deal of risk of being in melee so it should out dmg melee war and ranged ele.

....that's why tanks exist, so Melee won't get wrecked.

But melee non tanks are not tankly.

So? We're talking about their DPS and you're randomly saying that melee in RPG is there so mages wouldn't have to use mana [i don't think you even know how wrong you are when saying this btw].

[Jski.6180]

@Ephemiel.5694 said:

@Jski.6180 said:

@Ephemiel.5694 said:

@Jski.6180 said:

@Ephemiel.5694 said:In every game, especially in RPG, melee should always outdamage ranged since melee literally has to be in within range of the enemy's attacks.

You mean mages? Melee in rpg where there for trash mobs so the mage could hold on to there mana for bosses. Melee where never strong vs bosses as there attks where simply too much to faces tank and do dmg at the same time.

It was odd that melee never got weak after using there attks over and over it dose take energy to move and to hit hard much like mana takes energy in its own way but less physically and more mentally.

Any way this should not be a class vs class talk this should be more about with in the class it self as in a melee war should hit harder then a ranged war or a "melee" ele should hit harder then a ranged ele. Its the only way your going to be able to get realy balance. So your ranged ele still may hit harder then your melee war as war is simply more tanked aimed then your ranged ele but the melee ele has to put a great deal of risk of being in melee so it should out dmg melee war and ranged ele.

....that's why tanks exist, so Melee won't get wrecked.

But melee non tanks are not tankly.

So? We're talking about their DPS and you're randomly saying that melee in RPG is there so mages wouldn't have to use mana

[i don't think you even know how wrong you are when saying this btw]

.

So are we talking about other games or gw2 because your doing both it seems when it fits your point of view. Melee in other rpg where tanks or one shot burst classes the main dmg was mages and ranger who both has to use a resocres to play.

In this game melee and ranged are not class locked only hp / def / def skills are class locked so when a class pick up a melee wepon they must still deal with the set of def skills that make other melee classes able to get in and out.

Ele melee should do more dmg and it dose on some level it dose. Melee war should do more dmg then ranged war. BUT ranged ele should do more dmg then melee war because of the class type.

[Gehenna.3625]

@Tails.9372 said:

@Gehenna.3625 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Oglaf.1074 said:

@Hot Boy.7138 said:I would actually like it if ranged did the same damage as melee in pve. And if they updated their boon share system to have a larger radius

Then you might as well delete all melee weapons from the game.

Melee weapons do have the advantage of cleaving. And stacking helps with grouping mobs to better cleave them. Not to mention it helps with positioning enemies (if all are ranged, the enemy/enemies are going to move, they won't be standing quietly away from you after all).There's also more defensive options on melee weapons than on ranged ones (where they are not only rare, but also generally of lower quality).

That sounds more like you're describing a tank than a melee DPS.Having access to more active defences doesn't make you a tank unless that's what you want to call a daredevil.

Your reply makes no sense to me. Traditionally things like positioning mobs and defensive skills are related to tanking and therefore I said that it SOUNDS like you're describing a tank. I made that comment to indicate that what you're describing are not DPS elements in that sense. So useful as they may be, you generally won't get picked when DPS is requested since the utility you may bring is not necessarily appreciated as much as the DPS loss you have by comparison.

I don't expect any boss fight in this game to go beyond the core of big HP and dodging out of a lot of stuff on the ground. So if you're trained at dodging and ressing then how much value do people put in the rest of the abilities? Maybe they are more valid in raids (haven't played them so I can't say) but the general feeling is that it's mostly DPS numbers people are concerned with in the more endgame-like content and so if ranged do more DPS, they'll go with ranged. It's been that way from the start when people figured out that berserker gear was the way to go for every class, no matter what.

Are you saying that the focus on DPS over utility has changed? I get that there are tank and heal specs now for raids so I'm not talking about that. I just wonder if the trade off of DPS for utility is really something to be happy about in this game.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Gehenna.3625 said:

@Tails.9372 said:

@Gehenna.3625 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Oglaf.1074 said:

@"Hot Boy.7138" said:I would actually like it if ranged did the same damage as melee in pve. And if they updated their boon share system to have a larger radius

Then you might as well delete all melee weapons from the game.

Melee weapons do have the advantage of cleaving. And stacking helps with grouping mobs to better cleave them. Not to mention it helps with positioning enemies (if all are ranged, the enemy/enemies are going to move, they won't be standing quietly away from you after all).There's also more defensive options on melee weapons than on ranged ones (where they are not only rare, but also generally of lower quality).

That sounds more like you're describing a tank than a melee DPS.Having access to more active defences doesn't make you a tank unless that's what you want to call a daredevil.

Your reply makes no sense to me. Traditionally things like positioning mobs and defensive skills are related to tanking and therefore I said that it SOUNDS like you're describing a tank. I made that comment to indicate that what you're describing are not DPS elements in that sense. So useful as they may be, you generally won't get picked when DPS is requested since the utility you may bring is not necessarily appreciated as much as the DPS loss you have by comparison.

I don't expect any boss fight in this game to go beyond the core of big HP and dodging out of a lot of stuff on the ground. So if you're trained at dodging and ressing then how much value do people put in the rest of the abilities? Maybe they are more valid in raids (haven't played them so I can't say) but the general feeling is that it's mostly DPS numbers people are concerned with in the more endgame-like content and so if ranged do more DPS, they'll go with ranged. It's been that way from the start when people figured out that berserker gear was the way to go for every class, no matter what.

Are you saying that the focus on DPS over utility has changed? I get that there are tank and heal specs now for raids so I'm not talking about that. I just wonder if the trade off of DPS for utility is really something to be happy about in this game.I think that you have misunderstood. None of those utilities are a dps loss. Cleaving lets you kill more than one mob at once, which is dps gain. Grouping/positioning groups of mobs lets you and others increase dps through said cleaving and AoE. And melee weapons posessing more defensive options just balances ranged not having to stand near boss (both of whose options prevent dps loss via getting killed).

In other games some of those would indeed be province of a tank, but in GW2 there's no such role. Even in raid encounter where a "tank" exists, it's there only to position a single boss. It doesn't affect any adds that might appear, nor it can prevent other players from receiving damage. All those things are left for everyone to take care of.

[Gehenna.3625]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Gehenna.3625 said:

@Tails.9372 said:

@Gehenna.3625 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Oglaf.1074 said:

@"Hot Boy.7138" said:I would actually like it if ranged did the same damage as melee in pve. And if they updated their boon share system to have a larger radius

Then you might as well delete all melee weapons from the game.

Melee weapons do have the advantage of cleaving. And stacking helps with grouping mobs to better cleave them. Not to mention it helps with positioning enemies (if all are ranged, the enemy/enemies are going to move, they won't be standing quietly away from you after all).There's also more defensive options on melee weapons than on ranged ones (where they are not only rare, but also generally of lower quality).

That sounds more like you're describing a tank than a melee DPS.Having access to more active defences doesn't make you a tank unless that's what you want to call a daredevil.

Your reply makes no sense to me. Traditionally things like positioning mobs and defensive skills are related to tanking and therefore I said that it SOUNDS like you're describing a tank. I made that comment to indicate that what you're describing are not DPS elements in that sense. So useful as they may be, you generally won't get picked when DPS is requested since the utility you may bring is not necessarily appreciated as much as the DPS loss you have by comparison.

I don't expect any boss fight in this game to go beyond the core of big HP and dodging out of a lot of stuff on the ground. So if you're trained at dodging and ressing then how much value do people put in the rest of the abilities? Maybe they are more valid in raids (haven't played them so I can't say) but the general feeling is that it's mostly DPS numbers people are concerned with in the more endgame-like content and so if ranged do more DPS, they'll go with ranged. It's been that way from the start when people figured out that berserker gear was the way to go for every class, no matter what.

Are you saying that the focus on DPS over utility has changed? I get that there are tank and heal specs now for raids so I'm not talking about that. I just wonder if the trade off of DPS for utility is really something to be happy about in this game.I think that you have misunderstood. None of those utilities are a dps loss. Cleaving lets you kill more than one mob at once, which is dps gain. Grouping/positioning groups of mobs lets you and others increase dps through said cleaving and AoE. And melee weapons posessing more defensive options just balances ranged not having to stand near boss (both of whose options prevent dps loss via getting killed).

In other games some of those would indeed be province of a tank, but in GW2 there's no such role. Even in raid encounter where a "tank" exists, it's there only to position a single boss. It doesn't affect any adds that might appear, nor it can prevent other players from receiving damage. All those things are left for everyone to take care of.

Yeah I thought the argument was that you get some other stuff to make up for the DPS loss. If that's not what you meant, then indeed I misunderstood.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Gehenna.3625 said:Yeah I thought the argument was that you get some other stuff to make up for the DPS loss. If that's not what you meant, then indeed I misunderstood.No, the argument was that melee having to stand near the boss is no reason for it to have superior dps, as there are other balancing factors involved.Notice, that it doesn't mean it should have inferior dps either.

[Gehenna.3625]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Gehenna.3625 said:Yeah I thought the argument was that you get some other stuff to make up for the DPS loss. If that's not what you meant, then indeed I misunderstood.No, the argument was that melee having to stand near the boss is no reason for it to have superior dps, as there are other balancing factors involved.Notice, that it doesn't mean it should have inferior dps either.

Alrighty. Now the argument for melee DPS to have more DPS than ranged DPS is that melee are penalized because there tend to be a lot of effects happening close by bosses that they have to move a lot more. Once they move, they are out of range and have to get back into range or sometimes wait a few seconds for an effect to end. Under such circumstances during a fight that means that melee DPS cannot DPS as often or as long as ranged DPS who can still DPS on the move and at a safe range from some effects.

That's the reason for people wanting melee DPS to be higher since they cannot DPS as often as ranged DPS in essence. How do you feel about that?