And here i thought the loot box trend was finally dead

[Zarghoul.5687]

Actually that's Marketing 100, so it is marketing and not exploitation at all.

it is if the premise behind it is to latch onto people ability to gamble without constraint, thats exploiting your customers, when you can simply sell them individually

[Zarghoul.5687]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Zarghoul.5687 said:i mean its not difficult to sell each skin for the same as a glider, and sell them on their own with no RNG, using this system means they Anet make more money for less work, as i said its an exploit aimed towards consumers

Do you have data on which of both takes how long to develop?

Just as a side note: Blizzard charges 20 Euro for shop mounts on top of their subscription fee. At 1,200 gems Arenanet is charging 15 Euro per mount (with the ability to convert gold to gems) and no subscription fee AND a rng sale element for 5 Euro per try per mount.

Even in direct comparison to the biggest competitor GW2 shines.

that still dosnt make the practice of lootboxes a good thing, no matter what game uses it or how they price it, its a scummy practice designed to target peoples ability to want to gamble without constraint to gain as much money as possible without a care for the customer

[Ayrilana.1396]

@"Zarghoul.5687" said:

Again, there are people who enjoy gambling.

"Listening" doesn't automatically mean "listening to you". There are many different opinions.

yes people enjoy gambling, but people who struggle with gambling will spend money whether they like it or not, the practice of gambling with lootboxes exploits that tendancy

“People who struggle with gambling” is a scapegoat (or would it be red herring?) people use in an effort to get the RNG lootboxes removed. They expressed no concern about this until the lootboxes contained something that they wanted.

They assume that they’ll get a better deal which probably will not be the case as the items would just then be priced accordingly. In the case for mount skins, they’ll still be at least 1200 gems without the RNG pack. The only difference now is that players lost the option to potentially get them cheaper.

[Cyninja.2954]

@Zarghoul.5687 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Zarghoul.5687 said:i mean its not difficult to sell each skin for the same as a glider, and sell them on their own with no RNG, using this system means they Anet make more money for less work, as i said its an exploit aimed towards consumers

Do you have data on which of both takes how long to develop?

Just as a side note: Blizzard charges 20 Euro for shop mounts on top of their subscription fee. At 1,200 gems Arenanet is charging 15 Euro per mount (with the ability to convert gold to gems) and no subscription fee AND a rng sale element for 5 Euro per try per mount.

Even in direct comparison to the biggest competitor GW2 shines.

that still dosnt make the practice of lootboxes a good thing, no matter what game uses it or how they price it, its a scummy practice designed to target peoples ability to want to gamble without constraint to gain as much money as possible without a care for the customer

Please don't throw around terms assuming they might stick. Only because there is a random element does not automatically make something a lootbox, especially the type of lootbox which has a heavy negative connotation associated with it (no reward overview, required to progress, in game advantages, etc.).

The mount licenses:

• offer a limited amount of rewards
• rewards can not be duplicates thus you always make progress towards your desired goal (if you have one)
• can be completely circumvented by direct purchases
• are in no way game relevant or required

All those distinctions make this at best a lootbox light, and even using the term like that does it a disservice compared to how lootboxes in many exploitive games are actually implemented.

[Deihnyx.6318]

@"Zarghoul.5687" said:

Again, there are people who enjoy gambling.

"Listening" doesn't automatically mean "listening to you". There are many different opinions.

yes people enjoy gambling, but people who struggle with gambling will spend money whether they like it or not, the practice of gambling with lootboxes exploits that tendancy

A -lot- of things about MMOs exploit people addictions, it's nothing new and it's not necessarily/always bad. Grinding is another one of them and I don't see many people complaining that grinding is ridiculous and is made worse by addiction. I've forced myself to do wvw to diamond every single week for over a year to the point of burning out hard, but it's not the fault of the game, i'm responsible for it.Here it's not even nearly as bad since you actually have the choice and there's a finite amount of times you can try before you get everything. So I really don't know why pulling the victim card here. Getting the invisible shoes through black lion keys... now THAT'S real gambling with insanely low chance of success, but the complains are about mounts because let's face it, all you want is getting them for cheaper.

[Obtena.7952]

Oh someone labeled it gambling again. This merry go round has lost it's appeal.

[Zarghoul.5687]

They assume that they’ll get a better deal which probably will not be the case as the items would just then be priced accordingly. In the case for mount skins, they’ll still be at least 1200 gems without the RNG pack. The only difference now is that players lost the option to potentially get them cheaper.

not a red herring, as its company's have said how ludicrous an amount of money they make from loot boxes, as some people will spend in excess of hundreds for the right roll, add on the fact tht skins for different items in the game are released on there own every month, for a reasonable price shows tht it isnt impossible to put the skins at a decent value point for singular purchase, putting them into a RNG mechanic is simply to turn over far more profit at the expense of the consumer

[Zarghoul.5687]

The mount licenses:

• offer a limited amount of rewards
• rewards can not be duplicates thus you always make progress towards your desired goal (if you have one)
• can be completely circumvented by direct purchases
• are in no way game relevant or required

All those distinctions make this at best a lootbox light, and even using the term like that does it a disservice compared to how lootboxes in many exploitive games are actually implemented.

still a lootbox, no matter how you spin it, as the ability to buy 1 item is far more expensive than buying 3, which makes buyers more inclined to spend less at a chance to get wht they want, and in turn if they dont get it, they feel inclined to spend more, potentially spending far more than a single purchase and aiding nobody but ANET at the expense of the customer

[Zarghoul.5687]

@Obtena.7952 said:Oh someone labeled it gambling again. This merry go round has lost it's appeal.

yet it still spins for the same reason

[Zarghoul.5687]

A -lot- of things about MMOs exploit people addictions, it's nothing new and it's not necessarily/always bad. Grinding is another one of them and I don't see many people complaining that grinding is ridiculous and is made worse by addiction. I've forced myself to do wvw to diamond every single week for over a year to the point of burning out hard, but it's not the fault of the game, i'm responsible for it.Here it's not even nearly as bad since you actually have the choice and there's a finite amount of times you can try before you get everything. So I really don't know why pulling the victim card here. Getting the invisible shoes through black lion keys... now THAT'S real gambling with insanely low chance of success, but the complains are about mounts because let's face it, all you want is getting them for cheaper.

theres a difference between spending time and spending money, and yes black lion chests are also a huge problem in this game

[Cyninja.2954]

@Zarghoul.5687 said:

A -lot- of things about MMOs exploit people addictions, it's nothing new and it's not necessarily/always bad. Grinding is another one of them and I don't see many people complaining that grinding is ridiculous and is made worse by addiction. I've forced myself to do wvw to diamond every single week for over a year to the point of burning out hard, but it's not the fault of the game, i'm responsible for it.Here it's not even nearly as bad since you actually have the choice and there's a finite amount of times you can try before you get everything. So I really don't know why pulling the victim card here. Getting the invisible shoes through black lion keys... now THAT'S real gambling with insanely low chance of success, but the complains are about mounts because let's face it, all you want is getting them for cheaper.

theres a difference between spending time and spending money, and yes black lion chests are also a huge problem in this game

Seriously? Yes, spending time is by far worse. One of both you can never get back, guess which one.

Yes, Black Lion Chests are lootboxes.

[Zarghoul.5687]

Seriously? Yes, spending time is by far worse. One of both you can never get back, guess which one.

both, as u need to work to get the other, so u spend more time....

[Deihnyx.6318]

@Zarghoul.5687 said:

A -lot- of things about MMOs exploit people addictions, it's nothing new and it's not necessarily/always bad. Grinding is another one of them and I don't see many people complaining that grinding is ridiculous and is made worse by addiction. I've forced myself to do wvw to diamond every single week for over a year to the point of burning out hard, but it's not the fault of the game, i'm responsible for it.Here it's not even nearly as bad since you actually have the choice and there's a finite amount of times you can try before you get everything. So I really don't know why pulling the victim card here. Getting the invisible shoes through black lion keys... now THAT'S real gambling with insanely low chance of success, but the complains are about mounts because let's face it, all you want is getting them for cheaper.

theres a difference between spending time and spending money, and yes black lion chests are also a huge problem in this game

Not when the time can be bought with money.And anyone who has a job knows that time is valuable.

[Cyninja.2954]

@Zarghoul.5687 said:

Seriously? Yes, spending time is by far worse. One of both you can never get back, guess which one.

both, as u need to work to get the other, so u spend more time....

That depends entirely on how effective you manage your money and what job you qualify.

Time is finite, always and for everyone. Money can, but does not necessarily have to be.

[Loesh.4697]

@Zarghoul.5687 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Zarghoul.5687 said:i mean its not difficult to sell each skin for the same as a glider, and sell them on their own with no RNG, using this system means they Anet make more money for less work, as i said its an exploit aimed towards consumers

Do you have data on which of both takes how long to develop?

Just as a side note: Blizzard charges 20 Euro for shop mounts on top of their subscription fee. At 1,200 gems Arenanet is charging 15 Euro per mount (with the ability to convert gold to gems) and no subscription fee AND a rng sale element for 5 Euro per try per mount.

Even in direct comparison to the biggest competitor GW2 shines.

that still dosnt make the practice of lootboxes a good thing, no matter what game uses it or how they price it, its a scummy practice designed to target peoples ability to want to gamble without constraint to gain as much money as possible without a care for the customer

The entire point of the free to play model is to tempt you with valuable skins over a marketplace while giving you the choice to not pay a dime if you resist that temptation. It is the height of player choice, the expense purely decided by your self control, lootboxes exist as an extra layer of temptation that allows you buy many skins for cheap with the cost that you may not get all the skins you want, or not skins you can use. By allowing you to target a skin they undermine the practice of lootboxing to let you select an item for more expense, which in turn balances out the temptation by giving you a intentionally more expensive but in the long run more financially sound choice if you just want one thing.

The practice is perfect, balancing customer choice with company profits, and to decry it as some great crime is to bring the whole industry down.

[Diak Atoli.2085]

@Obtena.7952 said:Oh someone labeled it gambling again. This merry go round has lost it's appeal.

Around and around and around and around we go...

[Manasa Devi.7958]

@Zarghoul.5687 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Zarghoul.5687 said:i mean its not difficult to sell each skin for the same as a glider, and sell them on their own with no RNG, using this system means they Anet make more money for less work, as i said its an exploit aimed towards consumers

Do you have data on which of both takes how long to develop?

Just as a side note: Blizzard charges 20 Euro for shop mounts on top of their subscription fee. At 1,200 gems Arenanet is charging 15 Euro per mount (with the ability to convert gold to gems) and no subscription fee AND a rng sale element for 5 Euro per try per mount.

Even in direct comparison to the biggest competitor GW2 shines.

that still dosnt make the practice of lootboxes a good thing, no matter what game uses it or how they price it, its a scummy practice designed to target peoples ability to want to gamble without constraint to gain as much money as possible without a care for the customer

You call it lootboxes. I call it 66% off for people who eventually want all skins.

[Zarghoul.5687]

Not when the time can be bought with money.And anyone who has a job knows that time is valuable.

how do you buy time with moneyalso you choose to spend your time grinding, but if your coerced into spending more money than you originally wanted to through an RNG mechanic, thts scummy

[Zarghoul.5687]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Zarghoul.5687 said:

Seriously? Yes, spending time is by far worse. One of both you can never get back, guess which one.

both, as u need to work to get the other, so u spend more time....

That depends entirely on how effective you manage your money and what job you qualify.

Time is finite, always and for everyone. Money can, but does not necessarily have to be.

i mean tht dosnt change the point tht lootboxes affect peoples ability to spend there money wisely, potentially spending way more than they wanted for a single item

[Zarghoul.5687]

You call it lootboxes. I call it 66% off for people who eventually want all skins.

still a lootbox though

[Manasa Devi.7958]

@Zarghoul.5687 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Zarghoul.5687 said:

Seriously? Yes, spending time is by far worse. One of both you can never get back, guess which one.

both, as u need to work to get the other, so u spend more time....

That depends entirely on how effective you manage your money and what job you qualify.

Time is finite, always and for everyone. Money can, but does not necessarily have to be.

i mean tht dosnt change the point tht lootboxes affect peoples ability to spend there money wisely, potentially spending way more than they wanted for a single itemYou make it sound as if these things remove people's agency. Do you really think so little of your fellow gamers?

And actually, the combination of the specific license and the random license does the exact opposite of what you claim. It allowed me to spend my gold more wisely, not less. I looked at the selection and found only 2 skins I absolutely didn't want. So, buying a five pack for 1800 would give me at worst 3 I would want. I bought that 5 pack, got only one I didn't want. I spent 1800 gems for 4 nice skins instead of 4800.

[Zarghoul.5687]

The practice is perfect, balancing customer choice with company profits, and to decry it as some great crime is to bring the whole industry down.

still a bad practice no matter how much money is made, it dosnt aid player choice it exploits it, lootboxs are a way for a company to make far more money from an than it is worth, it might be great for shareholders, but not everyone is rich or has a ton of time, nor does this help people tht could potentially have a gambling addiction, its profit for the sake of profit

[Zarghoul.5687]

And actually, the combination of the specific license and the random license does the exact opposite of what you claim. It allowed me to spend my gold more wisely, not less. I looked at the selection and found only 2 skins I absolutely didn't want. So, buying a five pack for 1800 would give me at worst 3 I would want. I bought that 5 pack, got only one I didn't want. I spent 1800 gems for 4 nice skins instead of 4800.

lootboxes dont just affect you, they effect everyone, u might of got a good role for your money, but tht dosnt mean somebody else wont spend twice or even 3 times the amount u did for the same outcome, the question i put to you is would you have spent twice the amount, if you didnt get the skins, and also if you didnt get the skins you want today would u have spent more in the future to do the same roll, with the potential outcome of still not receiving what you wanted?

[Manasa Devi.7958]

@Zarghoul.5687 said:

And actually, the combination of the specific license and the random license does the exact opposite of what you claim. It allowed me to spend my gold more wisely, not less. I looked at the selection and found only 2 skins I absolutely didn't want. So, buying a five pack for 1800 would give me at worst 3 I would want. I bought that 5 pack, got only one I didn't want. I spent 1800 gems for 4 nice skins instead of 4800.

lootboxes dont just affect you, they effect everyone, u might of got a good role for your money, but tht dosnt mean somebody else wont spend twice or even 3 times the amount u did for the same outcome, the question i put to you is would you have spent twice the amount, if you didnt get the skins, and also if you didnt get the skins you want today would u have spent more in the future to do the same roll, with the potential outcome of still not receiving what you wanted?Everyone should look at the odds of getting what they want individually. I wouldn't HAVE (not 'of') bought a five pack if the odds wouldn't HAVE given me a guaranteed better result than buying individual skins. Everyone can and should do that.

You seem to be obsessing over what you perceive as people's inability to use their brains more than giving arguments against this sales model.

[Zarghoul.5687]

You seem to be obsessing over what you perceive as people's inability to use their brains more than giving arguments against this sales model.

because i have seen time and time again people who regretted spending money on RNG, and its backed up by companys saying how much a single person has spent on lootboxes, Anet donst have to tell people how to spend their money, but take some responsibility when your product has the potential to do a great deal of harm through using such an exploitative mechanic