improvements to hammer aa?

[Brutaly.6257]

I my humble opinion this is an easy one.

Which can be solved by adjusting numbers (cd/damage/number of targets) and adding in a QoL change the warriors got way back on their hammer, being able to move while casting RoW. In a perfect world RoW would also be a fire field but i can live with out that.

Just reduce the casting time on the chain and adjust the symbol uptime/damage accordingly.

The main issue with hammer is that the rest of the skills are underwhelming or outdated/slow.Increase damage and range on #2 so it is a part of a damage rotation in pve.On #3, increase damage so it is a part of a damage rotation in pve.Increase number of targets and damage on #4 so it is a part of a damage rotation in pve.Make it possible to move while casting #5.

If they did this the 5 skills in hammer could be used in a burst damage rotation (pve and pvp) while still keeping its place as a control weapon.

[Obtena.7952]

@Fipmip.7219 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Fipmip.7219 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:You're unwillingness to consider the truth of this makes me think you don't have a genuine interest in making hammer a weapon that's attractive for main use.

What? Where? I think you've misunderstood me completely. All I want to do is improve hammer AA and I'm here to discuss how to do that. I'm open to any ideas, as I've said already. You've gone from 'Hammer is a utility weapon and should remain that way' to 'Hammer AA cant be improved' to 'Actually it can but hammer AA has too much going on.'

If that part at the end there was your main argument all along then I'm sorry to say thus far I ignored it because as far I didn't think you were serious. Thing is though, if you think hammer AA can be improved by removing symbol and adding something else, lets bloody hear it already. I'm basically with you, all I want is an improvement. In fact, I've already suggested that the symbol just be changed.

Furthermore there is absolutely no rule as to why hammer cant have more than it does, not written nor unwritten. It currently does one special thing, and that is place a symbol at the end of it's chain. It needs to get through 2 and 1/4 seconds of cast time in straight melee to cast it. If adding something to it brings it up to scratch with other weapons, then why not? what's this notion of 'oh its too overloaded, it casts a useless symbol look at that.' Even better if you add something that makes the symbol worth getting through the chain for, perhaps a weakness on chain 2 so that the protection from the symbol is even better.

Me too ... it's just that I acknowledge Hammer AA already 'full', There is a 'rule'; it's called reasonable weapon skill design and if you look at how weapons are designed, you can see how adding more to hammer AA is highly unlikely for the reasons I already stated. I already gave my ideas on how Hammer should be changed ... I guess you missed that as well.

I guess I did miss it. but, eliminate skill 5? I'll stop there, I've already said that I dont want to quibble the other skills. I personally dont think that removing the symbol and reducing channel time of chain 3 would lead to me using hammer auto. Just changing the symbol itself and speeding up hammer overall isnt adding anything, just buffing whats already there.

I beg to differ ... changing the symbol itself and speeding up hammer overall can add LOTS or change the flavour of how to play hammer quite a bit. I mean, it's a contradiction to say "oh let's buff AA with changes, but make sure it doesn't add anything to the playstyle of the hammer". That just doesn't make sense. The other problem is that Anet changes things because they want it to have an impact on how people play and why they choose weapons. If your going to propose a change, then it HAS to be different; it HAS to make someone think differently about why they choose that weapon. That's the opposite of what you are saying that the symbol and speed change isn't added anything ... so why would Anet do it?

[Fipmip.7219]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Fipmip.7219 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Fipmip.7219 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:You're unwillingness to consider the truth of this makes me think you don't have a genuine interest in making hammer a weapon that's attractive for main use.

What? Where? I think you've misunderstood me completely. All I want to do is improve hammer AA and I'm here to discuss how to do that. I'm open to any ideas, as I've said already. You've gone from 'Hammer is a utility weapon and should remain that way' to 'Hammer AA cant be improved' to 'Actually it can but hammer AA has too much going on.'

If that part at the end there was your main argument all along then I'm sorry to say thus far I ignored it because as far I didn't think you were serious. Thing is though, if you think hammer AA can be improved by removing symbol and adding something else, lets bloody hear it already. I'm basically with you, all I want is an improvement. In fact, I've already suggested that the symbol just be changed.

Furthermore there is absolutely no rule as to why hammer cant have more than it does, not written nor unwritten. It currently does one special thing, and that is place a symbol at the end of it's chain. It needs to get through 2 and 1/4 seconds of cast time in straight melee to cast it. If adding something to it brings it up to scratch with other weapons, then why not? what's this notion of 'oh its too overloaded, it casts a useless symbol look at that.' Even better if you add something that makes the symbol worth getting through the chain for, perhaps a weakness on chain 2 so that the protection from the symbol is even better.

Me too ... it's just that I acknowledge Hammer AA already 'full', There is a 'rule'; it's called reasonable weapon skill design and if you look at how weapons are designed, you can see how adding more to hammer AA is highly unlikely for the reasons I already stated. I already gave my ideas on how Hammer should be changed ... I guess you missed that as well.

I guess I did miss it. but, eliminate skill 5? I'll stop there, I've already said that I dont want to quibble the other skills. I personally dont think that removing the symbol and reducing channel time of chain 3 would lead to me using hammer auto. Just changing the symbol itself and speeding up hammer overall isnt adding anything, just buffing whats already there.

I beg to differ ... changing the symbol itself and speeding up hammer overall can add LOTS or change the flavour of how to play hammer quite a bit. I mean, it's a contradiction to say "oh let's buff AA with changes, but make sure it doesn't add anything to the playstyle of the hammer". That just doesn't make sense. The other problem is that Anet changes things because they

want

it to have an impact on how people play and why they choose weapons. If your going to propose a change, then it HAS to be different; it HAS to make someone think differently about why they choose that weapon. That's the opposite of what you are saying that the symbol and speed change isn't added anything ... so why would Anet do it?

Even when I'm trying to play by your rules I don't understand what you're saying. You cant make balance calls based on semantics. So now I cant even make a simple numbers change and switch to AA because the 'bandwith of the AA is too full'? You're saying that its a contradiction to buff AA but say it doesn't add anything, and yet if I'm going to propose change then it has to be different? According to you, I just did!

This topic isnt as complex as you're making it out to be. I like hammer skill 2- 5. I just want to use AA more. Buff AA. Your babbling isn't helping to change anything.

[Obtena.7952]

That's the problem ... you want to use AA more ... that doesn't make much sense considering how situational the other skills are in PVE.

Even in PVP ... if you want to use AA more, you aren't getting the most from the good skills you have that aren't AA. I mean, you make it sound like AA doesn't get used enough ... With all the things that are loaded on it, it get's used too much. It's so bad that people SKIP using #2 in their rotation because AA is so good. There isn't any logic in wanting to use AA when it's so campable as it is.

I don't see how your missing what I'm saying ... AA is so overloaded that there is no reason to use any of the other skills except for breaking bars. Even the big hitting #2 is not used because AA is so good. it's been like that since day 1. I don't even know if the recent 25% buff to Mighty Blow has even changed that.

[Fipmip.7219]

I use 2 to clear condis, 3 to keep mobs out of rings, 3 and 4 to disable elites and vets while killing adds, and 5... well 5 shouldn't root. I actually like 2 when facing condi enemies because it takes skill to make sure you have a light field available at the right time as well as have the skill be off cooldown in time for the condis to have minimal effect.

You know, If changing AA was literally impossible, I'd just reduce cooldown across the other skills to like 18 seconds max. That way, I could use AA as it is used with other weapons as a time filler. As it stands though, hammer AA is not good.

[Indure.5410]

@"Fipmip.7219" said:I use 2 to clear condis, 3 to keep mobs out of rings, 3 and 4 to disable elites and vets while killing adds, and 5... well 5 shouldn't root. I actually like 2 when facing condi enemies because it takes skill to make sure you have a light field available at the right time as well as have the skill be off cooldown in time for the condis to have minimal effect.

You know, If changing AA was literally impossible, I'd just reduce cooldown across the other skills to like 18 seconds max. That way, I could use AA as it is used with other weapons as a time filler. As it stands though, hammer AA is not good.

To try to help clean up the argument between you and Obtena because you are talking passed each other, in general Obtena is correct. Strictly speaking in PVE, the hammer's AA is incredibly powerful. If your goal is to make the most out of the hammer, the best builds always revolve around the Hammer's symbol, because the symbol is that good. You basically have to take Zeal and Honor to have a min/max build. The symbol of the Hammer does well over 40% more damage then the AA chain itself, and is so efficient when spammed, everything else used is a DPS loss by far and usually a support loss.

The disconnect between you and Obtena revolves around the word "bad." Your using bad to describe how the weapon feels to use, while Obtena doesn't care about how the AA chain feels and is arguing about the AA's total output (which is arguably over-tuned).

[Fipmip.7219]

@Indure.5410 said:

@"Fipmip.7219" said:I use 2 to clear condis, 3 to keep mobs out of rings, 3 and 4 to disable elites and vets while killing adds, and 5... well 5 shouldn't root. I actually like 2 when facing condi enemies because it takes skill to make sure you have a light field available at the right time as well as have the skill be off cooldown in time for the condis to have minimal effect.

You know, If changing AA was literally impossible, I'd just reduce cooldown across the other skills to like 18 seconds max. That way, I could use AA as it is used with other weapons as a time filler. As it stands though, hammer AA is not good.

To try to help clean up the argument between you and Obtena because you are talking passed each other, in general Obtena is correct. Strictly speaking in PVE, the hammer's AA is incredibly powerful. If your goal is to make the most out of the hammer, the best builds always revolve around the Hammer's symbol, because the symbol is that good. You basically have to take Zeal and Honor to have a min/max build. The symbol of the Hammer does well over 40% more damage then the AA chain itself, and is so efficient when spammed, everything else used is a DPS loss by far and usually a support loss.

The disconnect between you and Obtena revolves around the word "bad." Your using bad to describe how the weapon feels to use, while Obtena doesn't care about how the AA chain feels and is arguing about the AA's total output (which is arguably over-tuned).

I argued quite a lot there for hammer AA but after a spot of soul searching I admit it. hammer AA is actually quite powerful and obtena is right. If I want my particular problem solved hammer needs a full rework.

[Genesis.8572]

I love the aesthetics of the hammer guardian, and the hammer used to be my longtime weapon of choice, but the hammer could also use an overhaul.

The hammer feels slow and clunky, especially its AA skill 1 chain. And that might be fine, but as previously said, the symbol in the AA chain is too good to not AA, which leads to a boring playstyle. Moreover, a lot of its skill 3-5 tend to be gimmicky or lucky to land. Skill 5, for example, sometimes fails to work properly, with people seemingly able to glitch through the ring. It has a long casttime and tell, which makes for an easy counter. And that's true for skills 3 and 4. Skill 3 is often hard to land, and it's just an immobilize.

I like the idea of the Hammer as a PVE weapon useful for providing heavy CC for breakbars, sustain damage, and some minor support. I would like ANet to consider moving the symbol from the Skill 1 AA Chain to Skill 3 or possibly even 5 (and upgraded slightly), and then speed up the Skill 1 AA. If we have to have a Symbol of Protection on hammer, then make it something that we can control more tightly and ways more interesting than AA spam. Adjust the 3rd AA to something else. Maybe the Slow or Weakness condition? (And toss Glacial Heart, and put the new version somewhere where the talent would actually be competitive.)

I would add a Daze effect to one of the hammer skills. Maybe Skill 3.

The Greatsword Skill 5 pulls people into reach. Why not have the Hammer 5 work on an opposite principle? Repel foes out of the symbol and give allies in the symbol protection and resistance? Call it Symbol of Warding.