improvements to hammer aa?

[InsaneQR.7412]

@Yannir.4132 said:

@Fipmip.7219 said:yeah stun could be really bad with high quickness uptime. perhaps daze would be better, or like i said confusion. I want more than just a second or two more of symbol of protection though, something to really make hammer worth keeping in hand.

You know why there's not a single AA chain in the entire game that has a hard CC on it? Hard CC includes Stun, Daze, Fear, Taunt, Knockdown, Launch and Immobilize. (+the underwater ones)

Immobilize is not a hard CC. You can cast skills when affected by it thus it is soft and not Hard CC.

[Yannir.4132]

@InsaneQR.7412 said:

@Yannir.4132 said:

@Fipmip.7219 said:yeah stun could be really bad with high quickness uptime. perhaps daze would be better, or like i said confusion. I want more than just a second or two more of symbol of protection though, something to really make hammer worth keeping in hand.

You know why there's not a single AA chain in the entire game that has a hard CC on it? Hard CC includes Stun, Daze, Fear, Taunt, Knockdown, Launch and Immobilize. (+the underwater ones)

Immobilize is not a hard CC. You can cast skills when affected by it thus it is soft and not Hard CC.

I dispute that categorization.But call it what you will, in terms of severity it's more akin to a hard CC than a cripple, for example.

[InsaneQR.7412]

@Yannir.4132 said:

@InsaneQR.7412 said:

@Yannir.4132 said:

@Fipmip.7219 said:yeah stun could be really bad with high quickness uptime. perhaps daze would be better, or like i said confusion. I want more than just a second or two more of symbol of protection though, something to really make hammer worth keeping in hand.

You know why there's not a single AA chain in the entire game that has a hard CC on it? Hard CC includes Stun, Daze, Fear, Taunt, Knockdown, Launch and Immobilize. (+the underwater ones)

Immobilize is not a hard CC. You can cast skills when affected by it thus it is soft and not Hard CC.

I dispute that categorization.But call it what you will, in terms of severity it's more akin to a hard CC than a cripple, for example.

Its even defined as only movement impairing by the games traits. Every other you mentioned count as disables thus hard cc.

[draxynnic.3719]

@otto.5684 said:

@Hannelore.8153 said:

@otto.5684 said:The AA third chain need to be reduced to 0.75 sec. Glacia heart ICD should be reduced to 5 secs (PvE only). Honestly, in PvE the protection has almost no value and the CC, while nice, no one uses a weapon because it has CC, but for damage. The utility value of hammer is a way over precevied. That is why no one uses it in PvE whatsoever.

What ? Protection, Vigor and -%damage in group is the main reason people can run glass builds all the time in PvE. And no one uses it in PvE because of the annoying, spamming light field that makes all field stacking useless.

Guardian is not going to use hammer to provide protection to group. There are other classes that do this much better. Plus you only add to the point with light fields.

The point is the utility of hammer is not that useful for it to do the abysmal damage it currently does. No one uses it in PvE for this specific reason.

Perhaps not for group content. It can be pretty useful for soloing encounters though, with the right traits.

@InsaneQR.7412 said:

@Yannir.4132 said:

@InsaneQR.7412 said:

@Yannir.4132 said:

@Fipmip.7219 said:yeah stun could be really bad with high quickness uptime. perhaps daze would be better, or like i said confusion. I want more than just a second or two more of symbol of protection though, something to really make hammer worth keeping in hand.

You know why there's not a single AA chain in the entire game that has a hard CC on it? Hard CC includes Stun, Daze, Fear, Taunt, Knockdown, Launch and Immobilize. (+the underwater ones)

Immobilize is not a hard CC. You can cast skills when affected by it thus it is soft and not Hard CC.

I dispute that categorization.But call it what you will, in terms of severity it's more akin to a hard CC than a cripple, for example.

Its even defined as only movement impairing by the games traits. Every other you mentioned count as disables thus hard cc.

Pretty sure that strictly speaking it's a soft CC according to the game mechanics.

However, this is semantics. The original point was that certain debuffs are too strong to proc automatically through autoattack chains. Immobilise is one of them - it's the strongest of the soft CCs by a considerable margin, and speaking from experience, there are times when I'd rather by hit by some hard CCs than by an Immobilise. Particularly since immobilise can't be removed through a stunbreak: you need to blow a condition cleanse, hope the cleanse doesn't get soaked up by cover conditions anyway, and hopefully not have another immobolise land on you shortly afterwards.

Immobilise and hard CC are both too strong to have on an autoattack. The persistent immobolise from the roots that rangers can summon, or the repeating immobilise from thieves, are bad enough, but at least they're costing resources.

[Yannir.4132]

@draxynnic.3719 said:

However, this is semantics. The original point was that certain debuffs are too strong to proc automatically through autoattack chains.

Indeed, that's what we got caught up in.

[InsaneQR.7412]

@draxynnic.3719 said:

@otto.5684 said:

@Hannelore.8153 said:

@otto.5684 said:The AA third chain need to be reduced to 0.75 sec. Glacia heart ICD should be reduced to 5 secs (PvE only). Honestly, in PvE the protection has almost no value and the CC, while nice, no one uses a weapon because it has CC, but for damage. The utility value of hammer is a way over precevied. That is why no one uses it in PvE whatsoever.

What ? Protection, Vigor and -%damage in group is the main reason people can run glass builds all the time in PvE. And no one uses it in PvE because of the annoying, spamming light field that makes all field stacking useless.

Guardian is not going to use hammer to provide protection to group. There are other classes that do this much better. Plus you only add to the point with light fields.

The point is the utility of hammer is not that useful for it to do the abysmal damage it currently does. No one uses it in PvE for this specific reason.

Perhaps not for group content. It can be pretty useful for soloing encounters though, with the right traits.

@InsaneQR.7412 said:

@Yannir.4132 said:

@InsaneQR.7412 said:

@Yannir.4132 said:

@Fipmip.7219 said:yeah stun could be really bad with high quickness uptime. perhaps daze would be better, or like i said confusion. I want more than just a second or two more of symbol of protection though, something to really make hammer worth keeping in hand.

You know why there's not a single AA chain in the entire game that has a hard CC on it? Hard CC includes Stun, Daze, Fear, Taunt, Knockdown, Launch and Immobilize. (+the underwater ones)

Immobilize is not a hard CC. You can cast skills when affected by it thus it is soft and not Hard CC.

I dispute that categorization.But call it what you will, in terms of severity it's more akin to a hard CC than a cripple, for example.

Its even defined as only movement impairing by the games traits. Every other you mentioned count as disables thus hard cc.

Pretty sure that strictly speaking it's a soft CC according to the game mechanics.

However, this is semantics. The original point was that certain debuffs are too strong to proc automatically through autoattack chains. Immobilise is one of them - it's the strongest of the soft CCs by a considerable margin, and speaking from experience, there are times when I'd rather by hit by some hard CCs than by an Immobilise. Particularly since immobilise can't be removed through a stunbreak: you need to blow a condition cleanse, hope the cleanse doesn't get soaked up by cover conditions anyway, and hopefully not have another immobolise land on you shortly afterwards.

Immobilise and hard CC are both too strong to have on an autoattack. The persistent immobolise from the roots that rangers can summon, or the repeating immobilise from thieves, are bad enough, but at least they're costing resources.

Agreed.

[Obtena.7952]

@Fipmip.7219 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:Sure, it's improved, but I don't see why it would be done. It's not clear what problem is solved by changing symbol to proc retal. It seems to me that the reason hammer isn't the front runner DPS weapon is because that's not it's intention to begin with. Just look at the skills it has. Even Glacial hints at hammer's role as a weapon ... it's not high DPS, it's about control and lockdown.

I guess the question is: is there a place for a weapon that has the configuration of skills that hammer does? I have no doubt there is so I think proposals that move away from that role are met with skeptical sucking teeth and squinty eyeball looks. It's a hard sell to push hammer DPS increases to the point of 'bringing it up to PVE DPS standards' ... whatever that is.

The problem is the one proposed at the very beginning of this thread. The goal is to make hammer something more than a quick switch to use occasionally before going back to axe/focus whatever. No one uses the hammer in pve because lets face it in pve deeps matter. Even If you're going support in pve, you're not using hammer. Best case scenario you have it in the other slot to do some breakbar damage before going back. In pvp, hammer is used similarly as an opener or special scenario plug. By allowing hammer to be a real damage option, it can be a mainhand weapon. Im not saying we havent explored every option, I was originally proposing we add control to the AA, although I tend to agree that a lot of hard CC effects could end up OP. if you've got an idea, share by all means.

I get the desire to make hammer something more like a weapon you want to use more often than not for PVE, but you aren't going to do that by ignoring it's purpose and the value it brings to the game. If no one uses hammer in PVE because it's not DPS weapon, that's not actually a problem because we already have numerous and better choices if we want to have big DPS output. IMO, there isn't actually room to have another DPS focused weapon so if you want my idea, it's that improving hammer has nothing to do with giving it damage so it competes with other DPS options in PVE. It's a control and lockdown weapon ... if anything, I would GIVE UP the DPS gains on Mighty blow and turn that into a frequently applied grappling skill; in this game, that's cripple. Maybe it could be an attack that corrupts movement skills if an opponent has them.

Simply put, it's very short sighted to think that Hammer is fixed by simply adding DPS to it because lacking DPS isn't a problem Guardians have in weapon choices. Do you honestly think that if hammer got more DPS, but still not meta level DPS, it would fix it? If you do, you don't understand how meta works in this game and you don't understand the people that care about it and play it.

[Fipmip.7219]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Fipmip.7219 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:Sure, it's improved, but I don't see why it would be done. It's not clear what problem is solved by changing symbol to proc retal. It seems to me that the reason hammer isn't the front runner DPS weapon is because that's not it's intention to begin with. Just look at the skills it has. Even Glacial hints at hammer's role as a weapon ... it's not high DPS, it's about control and lockdown.

I guess the question is: is there a place for a weapon that has the configuration of skills that hammer does? I have no doubt there is so I think proposals that move away from that role are met with skeptical sucking teeth and squinty eyeball looks. It's a hard sell to push hammer DPS increases to the point of 'bringing it up to PVE DPS standards' ... whatever that is.

The problem is the one proposed at the very beginning of this thread. The goal is to make hammer something more than a quick switch to use occasionally before going back to axe/focus whatever. No one uses the hammer in pve because lets face it in pve deeps matter. Even If you're going support in pve, you're not using hammer. Best case scenario you have it in the other slot to do some breakbar damage before going back. In pvp, hammer is used similarly as an opener or special scenario plug. By allowing hammer to be a real damage option, it can be a mainhand weapon. Im not saying we havent explored every option, I was originally proposing we add control to the AA, although I tend to agree that a lot of hard CC effects could end up OP. if you've got an idea, share by all means.

I get the desire to make hammer something more like a weapon you want to use more often than not for PVE, but you aren't going to do that by ignoring it's purpose and the value it brings to the game. If no one uses hammer in PVE because it's not DPS weapon, that's not actually a problem because we already have numerous and better choices if we want to have big DPS output. IMO, there isn't actually room to have another DPS focused weapon so if you want my idea, it's that improving hammer has nothing to do with giving it damage so it competes with other DPS options in PVE. It's a control and lockdown weapon ... if anything, I would GIVE UP the DPS gains on Mighty blow and turn that into a frequently applied grappling skill; in this game, that's cripple. Maybe it could be an attack that corrupts movement skills if an opponent has them.

Simply put, it's very short sighted to think that Hammer is fixed by simply adding DPS to it because lacking DPS isn't a problem Guardians have in weapon choices. Do you honestly think that if hammer got more DPS, but still not meta level DPS, it would fix it? If you do, you don't understand how meta works in this game and you don't understand the people that care about it and play it.

Then what? what would make hammer more than the afterthought it is now? That's the point of this thread. I wont pretend to know every facet of guardian, down to the differences in traits for weapon combos, but the fact remains I that in all my time playing hammer guardian I never found a use for using the AA on hammer. It's just too weak and is the whole weapon is better served as a stopgap for a few control situations you might need. I get it 'the purpose of hammer is as a utility weapon' but so far that concept is just weak. You wont 'control' anything for very long if you're using hammer for longer than a hot minute. The answer currently on this thread is to improve the overall DPS, making hammer a skill based weapon that gets the most out of quickness management, while also providing a skill based condi cleanse option through light fields. improving hammer AA damage isn't ignoring hammer's purpose. skills 2 - 5 are all there, and are all ready to use once you need them. The only difference really is you get them now without using hammer as a switch.

[Obtena.7952]

The problem is that theme isn't really inline with the best approach to playing PVE in this game. It's just not a PVE weapon UNLESS you build around it's CC and Prot spamming capabilities for a specific reason in PVE (most likely to solve some VERY specific PVE problem). Therefore, it doesn't make much sense to apply some minor changes to AA (or anywhere else on it) to make it a better PVE weapon because you would STILL need to build around it's CC and Prot spamming capabilities.

The problem is you are trying to put lipstick on pig for the Miss America contest ... wrong contest.

If you want hammer to be a PVE weapon, it needs a complete wipe and a new theme ... and I don't get why that would ever happen given the multiple, good choices we already have for PVE weapons. That 'good PVE weapon' space is already full. Adding another doesn't address a problem.

[Fipmip.7219]

It's barely a pvp weapon either, as I've pointed out. Nevermind the that the concept of 'PvP weapons and PvE weapons' is bad one.

[Obtena.7952]

Bad or not, that's what it does; it's a much better PVP weapon than a PVE one. Short a full rebuild, you can't make this a main PVE weapon (unless you make it OPed) and I don't see why it would even be considered. We simply don't lack good PVE weapons. Not every weapon is intended to be good for every game mode. IMO, it's more likely to get more traction to fix hammer with a PVP focus than it is PVE.

[Fipmip.7219]

In that case, it's preference. If you think hammer doesn't deserve a place in PvE, then I guess I can agree to disagree. Thing is though, improving hammer AA would help it out in PvP. so either way the point stands.

[Obtena.7952]

Well, it's not about preference ... it's about what the weapons do. I see nothing about Hammer that makes me think that when this game was released 6 years ago, that there was a really good reason in PVE to launch, immobilize and contain mobs in a circle. On the other hand, I can see lots of value being able to do that in PVP. Only since mobs have gotten a little smarter (yes I see some run from AOE) and some have bars to break, that these three abilities have gotten more useful in PVE.

The fact remains that there isn't any room to improve Hammer AA ... it's overloaded as it stands now. In fact, it's very common to see people request it get UNLOADED of it's symbol. It's not a given result that improving Hammer AA helps out in PVP either ... it really depends on how it's changed. Again, the changes that will be meaningful aren't "JUST" a change to the AA, at least not any reasonable ones.

[Fipmip.7219]

That there is no room to improve hammer AA is not a fact. It most certainly can be improved and as you can see we've all just been discussing it. In fact you contradict yourself in the next sentence. Just that on one point I think depending on how it's changed could be an improvement in both pve and pvp.

I'm not entirely sure what your point actually is. I disagree that weapons should remain divided between pvp and pve, ergo it seems our preferences are different.

[Obtena.7952]

I think the point is ... it doesn't matter if you disagree that weapons can be better suited for PVP or PVE ... they are NATURALLY suited to those things based on what the weapons do; sometimes it's both, more often than not, it isn't. You don't change that because of JUST a change to AA. If you want hammer to be the best weapon it can, the suggestions and ideas have to be aligned to what Hammer is (clearly) intended to be good at, not what you think you want it to be good at. Case in point here ... adding more damage is not going to fix what you say is wrong with it in your original post.

Frankly, I want hammer to be better because I love the IDEA ... but I hate so many things about how it's implemented. I hate 5, I hate the symbol on #1, I hate the knockback on 4 ... on a MELEE weapon. I hate that #2 doesn't leap as far as #4 knockback (or I hate that #4 knockback farther than #2 leaps, take a pick)

But still, skills have a limited bandwidth for how much 'stuff' it can reasonably do, and not acknowledging that is not being honest or reasonable about what changes can be made to it. It's not a trivial change to 'fix' AA to get a specific result that you wish to see. Hammer requires a whole rework, primarily because the symbol on AA makes it inflexible to getting reasonable updates and it's not immediately obvious what skill could accommodate the symbol being moved.

Personally, I would eliminate 5, shift the symbol to it's own skill (like the other weapons) and simply reduce the execution time on AA chain 3. That's enough.

[Fipmip.7219]

actually when dealing with just 5 skills, a small change to any one of them can drastically change it's usage. for example I could make it so skill 5 is non rooting and gives stability - now I can use it better defensively and more safely burst from close range without interrupting the burst combo. But, I'm better off not using AA to do anything. better just to switch back to GS and burst. I can change AA to be faster and have longer symbols - now I can use the AA to apply much better pressure on the enemies I amare controlling with skills 2-5.

I made this thread because I roughly like hammer's current control setup. I also dont want to get into a massive quibble over each and every facet of every single stat about each hammer skill. I just never have a reason to use AA. I dont believe there is no change you can make to it that wont benefit both PVE and PVP.

[Obtena.7952]

Maybe, but that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying there is a finite bandwidth for the amount of 'things' a single skill does; this is easy enough to see and understand. In this case, Hammer AA is already overloaded with more things than is reasonable when compared to what other skills like it do. You want to add to what AA does to make hammer more attractive, despite how overloaded it already is. Something has to give. Overloading a skill with lots of good stuff is not a way to promote a weapon to be fun or engaging; you end up just camping that one really good skill and use the others sparingly ... ESPECIALLY in the case of Hammer in PVE. Moving the goodness around to all skills is the best approach to making it desirable as a main weapon and not just for swapping for tricks ... which is exactly what you said you wanted from hammer in your opening post.

The problem with hammer has nothing to do with the fact it doesn't have good skills or it doesn't do 'competitive' PVE damage. It's the fact that AA is overloaded. If you want the AA to 'have a reason', then you have to be reasonable and ready to accept that the 'have no reason' stuff that's on AA needs to move out so new tenants can move in. You're unwillingness to consider the truth of this makes me think you don't have a genuine interest in making hammer a weapon that's attractive for main use.

[Fipmip.7219]

@Obtena.7952 said:You're unwillingness to consider the truth of this makes me think you don't have a genuine interest in making hammer a weapon that's attractive for main use.

What? Where? I think you've misunderstood me completely. All I want to do is improve hammer AA and I'm here to discuss how to do that. I'm open to any ideas, as I've said already. You've gone from 'Hammer is a utility weapon and should remain that way' to 'Hammer AA cant be improved' to 'Actually it can but hammer AA has too much going on.'

If that part at the end there was your main argument all along then I'm sorry to say thus far I ignored it because as far I didn't think you were serious. Thing is though, if you think hammer AA can be improved by removing symbol and adding something else, lets bloody hear it already. I'm basically with you, all I want is an improvement. In fact, I've already suggested that the symbol just be changed.

Furthermore there is absolutely no rule as to why hammer cant have more than it does, not written nor unwritten. It currently does one special thing, and that is place a symbol at the end of it's chain. It needs to get through 2 and 1/4 seconds of cast time in straight melee to cast it. If adding something to it brings it up to scratch with other weapons, then why not? what's this notion of 'oh its too overloaded, it casts a useless symbol look at that.' Even better if you add something that makes the symbol worth getting through the chain for, perhaps a weakness on chain 2 so that the protection from the symbol is even better.

[Indure.5410]

Wow this thread is moving fast.

@Arcaedus.7290 said:

@"Indure.5410" said:

Does it have potential for abuse and is it OP?

Symbol of Wrath

: 20s cooldown/~2880 DPS (5 ticks)/ Retaliation

Symbol of Swiftness

: 15s cooldown/~2145 DPS (5 ticks)/ Swiftness

Symbol of Faith

: 8s cooldown/~1955 DPS (5 ticks)/ Regen

Symbol of Punishment

: 6s cooldown/~391 DPS (some amount of ticks)/ Might

Symbol of Blades

: 10s cooldown/?? DPS (6 ticks)/ Fury

Symbol of Energy

: 15s cooldown/ ?? DPS/ Vigor

Symbol of Vengeance

: 8s cooldown/~2300 (5 ticks)/ conditions

Symbol of Protection (with propose changes)

: 5s cooldown/~1000 DPS (3 ticks)/ Protection

So assuming a version of my original idea of a 2s symbol on the first AA with a 5s internal cooldown, would it be OP compared to other symbols?

I don't think so.

5s is quick, but close to Punishment, Faith, Vengeance and Blades in your ability to use it. Keep in mind that the duration of the symbol would only be 2s compared to the 4s duration of every other symbol. Also the damage would be potentially much lower than all the other symbols to balance out the gain in damage from a faster AA chain.

On a side note WTH is with Symbol of Energy, why is its cooldown so long? 15s for moderate damage and Vigor is oldschool symbol design.

What I meant is that a guardian not currently striking anything with their hammer could spam hammer 1 to give themself perma protection. Since the symbol is attached to the first attack, the second two attacks won't activate meaning you could spam the symbol on nothing just to give yourself protection. It's (arguably) on the overpowered side if you ask me.

I'm trying to understand the disconnect. If the first auto-attack has a 5s internal cooldown on the symbol portion then you can only proc the symbol every 5s regardless of how many AA's you spam. For all intensive purposes the internal cooldown acts as a regular cooldown. Unless traited for Writ of Persistence, you would only get 3s of protection every 5s (+.5s for recast) with the caveat that you would have to remain basically stationary in your symbol. Which in PVE is strong, but rather weak in the more mobile PVP side, where Guardians most likely have to leave their symbols rather quickly to keep up with moving opponents in the hope of doing viable damage with a melee oriented weapon.

In comparison to something like Symbol of Faith which when fully traited with Writ of Persistence and Invigorated Bulwark can almost indefinitely keep down a Symbol of Faith to gain regen if the ability is spammed, I don't see why this would be overpowered.

Is your concern only that Protection is too valuable of a boon to have easy and "quick" access to?

[Arcaedus.7290]

@"Indure.5410" said:

I'm trying to understand the disconnect. If the first auto-attack has a 5s internal cooldown on the symbol portion then you can only proc the symbol every 5s regardless of how many AA's you spam. For all intensive purposes the internal cooldown acts as a regular cooldown. Unless traited for Writ of Persistence, you would only get 3s of protection every 5s (+.5s for recast) with the caveat that you would have to remain basically stationary in your symbol. Which in PVE is strong, but rather weak in the more mobile PVP side, where Guardians most likely have to leave their symbols rather quickly to keep up with moving opponents in the hope of doing viable damage with a melee oriented weapon.

In comparison to something like Symbol of Faith which when fully traited with Writ of Persistence and Invigorated Bulwark can almost indefinitely keep down a Symbol of Faith to gain regen if the ability is spammed, I don't see why this would be overpowered.

Is your concern only that Protection is too valuable of a boon to have easy and "quick" access to?

It was, but now that I went back and fully read your first post for the hammer auto attack, this opens up a whole new can of worms. Tbh, I missed that 5s icd the first time reading through because I wasn't expecting something like that - there's no precedent for anything auto attack related having an icd.

I understand what you proposed but it still sounds slightly too complex. I'd rather the auto attack chain receive other buffs, such as boons attached to the 1st or 2nd swings, or just speed up the cast times.

[Indure.5410]

@Arcaedus.7290 said:

@"Indure.5410" said:

I'm trying to understand the disconnect. If the first auto-attack has a 5s internal cooldown on the symbol portion then you can only proc the symbol every 5s regardless of how many AA's you spam. For all intensive purposes the internal cooldown acts as a regular cooldown. Unless traited for Writ of Persistence, you would only get 3s of protection every 5s (+.5s for recast) with the caveat that you would have to remain basically stationary in your symbol. Which in PVE is strong, but rather weak in the more mobile PVP side, where Guardians most likely have to leave their symbols rather quickly to keep up with moving opponents in the hope of doing viable damage with a melee oriented weapon.

In comparison to something like Symbol of Faith which when fully traited with Writ of Persistence and Invigorated Bulwark can almost indefinitely keep down a Symbol of Faith to gain regen if the ability is spammed, I don't see why this would be overpowered.

Is your concern only that Protection is too valuable of a boon to have easy and "quick" access to?

It was, but now that I went back and fully read your first post for the hammer auto attack, this opens up a whole new can of worms. Tbh, I missed that 5s icd the first time reading through because I wasn't expecting something like that - there's no precedent for anything auto attack related having an icd.

I understand what you proposed but it still sounds slightly too complex. I'd rather the auto attack chain receive other buffs, such as boons attached to the 1st or 2nd swings, or just speed up the cast times.

But if you change the AA chain with boons instead of a symbol then you have to move the symbol to another skill and now you are the one making dramatic changes to how the weapon performs. :)

[Obtena.7952]

@Fipmip.7219 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:You're unwillingness to consider the truth of this makes me think you don't have a genuine interest in making hammer a weapon that's attractive for main use.

What? Where? I think you've misunderstood me completely. All I want to do is improve hammer AA and I'm here to discuss how to do that. I'm open to any ideas, as I've said already. You've gone from 'Hammer is a utility weapon and should remain that way' to 'Hammer AA cant be improved' to 'Actually it can but hammer AA has too much going on.'

If that part at the end there was your main argument all along then I'm sorry to say thus far I ignored it because as far I didn't think you were serious. Thing is though, if you think hammer AA can be improved by removing symbol and adding something else, lets bloody hear it already. I'm basically with you, all I want is an improvement. In fact, I've already suggested that the symbol just be changed.

Furthermore there is absolutely no rule as to why hammer cant have more than it does, not written nor unwritten. It currently does one special thing, and that is place a symbol at the end of it's chain. It needs to get through 2 and 1/4 seconds of cast time in straight melee to cast it. If adding something to it brings it up to scratch with other weapons, then why not? what's this notion of 'oh its too overloaded, it casts a useless symbol look at that.' Even better if you add something that makes the symbol worth getting through the chain for, perhaps a weakness on chain 2 so that the protection from the symbol is even better.

Me too ... it's just that I acknowledge Hammer AA already 'full', There is a 'rule'; it's called reasonable weapon skill design and if you look at how weapons are designed, you can see how adding more to hammer AA is highly unlikely for the reasons I already stated. I already gave my ideas on how Hammer should be changed ... I guess you missed that as well.

[Arcaedus.7290]

@Indure.5410 said:

@Arcaedus.7290 said:

@Indure.5410 said:

I'm trying to understand the disconnect. If the first auto-attack has a 5s internal cooldown on the symbol portion then you can only proc the symbol every 5s regardless of how many AA's you spam. For all intensive purposes the internal cooldown acts as a regular cooldown. Unless traited for Writ of Persistence, you would only get 3s of protection every 5s (+.5s for recast) with the caveat that you would have to remain basically stationary in your symbol. Which in PVE is strong, but rather weak in the more mobile PVP side, where Guardians most likely have to leave their symbols rather quickly to keep up with moving opponents in the hope of doing viable damage with a melee oriented weapon.

In comparison to something like Symbol of Faith which when fully traited with Writ of Persistence and Invigorated Bulwark can almost indefinitely keep down a Symbol of Faith to gain regen if the ability is spammed, I don't see why this would be overpowered.

Is your concern only that Protection is too valuable of a boon to have easy and "quick" access to?

It was, but now that I went back and fully read your first post for the hammer auto attack, this opens up a whole new can of worms. Tbh, I missed that 5s icd the first time reading through because I wasn't expecting something like that - there's no precedent for anything auto attack related having an icd.

I understand what you proposed but it still sounds slightly too complex. I'd rather the auto attack chain receive other buffs, such as boons attached to the 1st or 2nd swings, or just speed up the cast times.

But if you change the AA chain with boons instead of a symbol then you have to move the symbol to another skill and now you are the one making dramatic changes to how the weapon performs. :)

I thought about that before I replied actually and I agree; moving the symbol to another skill would either dramatically change the skill since it would likely need a rework/something else would be reworked to compensate for the loss, and it would also really change the function and utility of the auto attack chain.

As boring as it sounds, I think symbol being on the third swing of auto attack is best left alone (unless we do a complete overhaul of hammer). I was just suggesting that a good buff would be to add some boons to the first and second swings, and speed up the third so that it would be an overall buff.

[Fipmip.7219]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Fipmip.7219 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:You're unwillingness to consider the truth of this makes me think you don't have a genuine interest in making hammer a weapon that's attractive for main use.

What? Where? I think you've misunderstood me completely. All I want to do is improve hammer AA and I'm here to discuss how to do that. I'm open to any ideas, as I've said already. You've gone from 'Hammer is a utility weapon and should remain that way' to 'Hammer AA cant be improved' to 'Actually it can but hammer AA has too much going on.'

If that part at the end there was your main argument all along then I'm sorry to say thus far I ignored it because as far I didn't think you were serious. Thing is though, if you think hammer AA can be improved by removing symbol and adding something else, lets bloody hear it already. I'm basically with you, all I want is an improvement. In fact, I've already suggested that the symbol just be changed.

Furthermore there is absolutely no rule as to why hammer cant have more than it does, not written nor unwritten. It currently does one special thing, and that is place a symbol at the end of it's chain. It needs to get through 2 and 1/4 seconds of cast time in straight melee to cast it. If adding something to it brings it up to scratch with other weapons, then why not? what's this notion of 'oh its too overloaded, it casts a useless symbol look at that.' Even better if you add something that makes the symbol worth getting through the chain for, perhaps a weakness on chain 2 so that the protection from the symbol is even better.

Me too ... it's just that I acknowledge Hammer AA already 'full', There is a 'rule'; it's called reasonable weapon skill design and if you look at how weapons are designed, you can see how adding more to hammer AA is highly unlikely for the reasons I already stated. I already gave my ideas on how Hammer should be changed ... I guess you missed that as well.

I guess I did miss it. but, eliminate skill 5? I'll stop there, I've already said that I dont want to quibble the other skills. I personally dont think that removing the symbol and reducing channel time of chain 3 would lead to me using hammer auto. Just changing the symbol itself and speeding up hammer overall isnt adding anything, just buffing whats already there.

[Indure.5410]

@Arcaedus.7290 said:It was, but now that I went back and fully read your first post for the hammer auto attack, this opens up a whole new can of worms. Tbh, I missed that 5s icd the first time reading through because I wasn't expecting something like that - there's no precedent for anything auto attack related having an icd.

I understand what you proposed but it still sounds slightly too complex. I'd rather the auto attack chain receive other buffs, such as boons attached to the 1st or 2nd swings, or just speed up the cast times.

I understand that there is no precedent for an internal cooldown being placed on an AA chain and it sounds crazy, but I think when you stop and think about it, it is a sensible change.

It keeps the heart of the ability intact, which is an AA chain with a symbol tied to it, while noticeably improving it in both PVE and PVP, and making it easier to balance. Internal cooldowns aren't affected by alacrity, quickness, or the 20% cooldown traits so you have precise control on balancing uptime of the symbol in a way that you don't currently have (largely due to quickness). You also can change the speed of the AA chain completely independently of the symbol generation in a way that is impossible in its current design.

In terms of PVP you get a much more worthwhile ability. The hammer has reasonable CC and some burst damage, but is wholly lacking sustain damage that can apply continuous pressure in between bursting cycles and has very little in the way of allowing you to survive burst. The changes I suggest will give you an on demand Symbol of Protection that one: lets you mitigate incoming burst when timed right and two: allows you to put more continuous pressure when initiating. The general jist of the weapon would be to get into melee, CC your opponent, drop a symbol, MB, and then follow up with quick .5s auto attacks. The symbol will give you protection to avoid counter damage as well as provide tick damage if the opponent doesn't/can't flee, and with a quicker AA chain you can more consistently apply damage.

In terms of PVE, the change wouldn't fix the hammer completely, but it provides a meaningful starting point to let further changes happen. You're no longer going to have spammed light fields overlaying more powerful fields. You're going to have quicker AA chains which is a hell of a quality of life change. You're going to be able to incorporate MB into rotations without a DPS loss. My math might be off but I think you would lose ~12% of your damage compared to the current implementation (not counting quickness) which could be be invested to strengthen other skills or to give your AA more power.