Kit Trait Reworks

[Slapinator.4196]

Engineer and correct me if I am wrong is the only profession with traits that deal with a specific utility type (Engineering Kit) scattered around all core trait lines, except for Elixir Gun and Mortar, which used to have but got reworked (Purity of Purpose).

I believe that the throw velocity of grenades and shorter fuses of Bomb Kit should be made baseline and the fury granted when striking a foe with explosions should be merged with Steel-Packed Powder. Instead of these traits there should be a trait that boosts all the Kits that deal damage as power weapons together (Juggernaut) and a new trait that doesn't have to do with Kits but still enhances explosions.

Juggernaut should be reworked to affect all kits but instead of granting might and stability, it should boost the condition application capabilities of all Kits (except Med Kit I guess).

Health Insurance should generally boost outgoing heal effectiveness, not only when wielding Med Kit.

[Zex Anthon.8673]

Necromance minions are similar, but not to the point that kits are. Kit traits are set up like a profession mechanic, but kits are utility skills. Toolbelt traits are all loaded onto one specialization, unlike any other class mechanic.

The engineer has a lot of oddities like this. For instance engineer has only 4 utility families one of which is kits. Therfore, explosions and firearms dont have any traditional utility traits.

Kit traits are fine if kits were a profession mechanic. Juat move general kit traits into tools and scatter the kit specific traits around the other specs. Just like how necromancer soul reaping generally improves death shroud. Then the other specs add more focus: condi(curses/firearms), power(spite/explosives), support(blood,elixirs), minions(death magic/inventions).

[Opopanax.1803]

@Zex Anthon.8673 said:Necromance minions are similar, but not to the point that kits are. Kit traits are set up like a profession mechanic, but kits are utility skills. Toolbelt traits are all loaded onto one specialization, unlike any other class mechanic.

The engineer has a lot of oddities like this. For instance engineer has only 4 utility families one of which is kits. Therfore, explosions and firearms dont have any traditional utility traits.

Kit traits are fine if kits were a profession mechanic. Juat move general kit traits into tools and scatter the kit specific traits around the other specs. Just like how necromancer soul reaping generally improves death shroud. Then the other specs add more focus: condi(curses/firearms), power(spite/explosives), support(blood,elixirs), minions(death magic/inventions).

Very good, insightful post, Zex.

The only issue I could see is that Tools would then become mandatory.

[bambi.6214]

I think reworking one trait line specifically for kits is an interesting idea. Moving all kit traits (both specific for kits like Grenadier and Streamlined Kits) to (eg) Firearms and then reworking Explosives so we can pick whether it augments our power damage or condi damage (like swapping condi traits from Firearms to Explosives in exchange for kit traits) could probably tidy things up a bit.

[Zex Anthon.8673]

@"Samug.6512" said:I think reworking one trait line specifically for kits is an interesting idea. Moving all kit traits (both specific for kits like Grenadier and Streamlined Kits) to (eg) Firearms and then reworking Explosives so we can pick whether it augments our power damage or condi damage (like swapping condi traits from Firearms to Explosives in exchange for kit traits) could probably tidy things up a bit.

All classes have a specialization that governs the core mechanic, see here. For engineer this is tools. Firearms and explosives provide very different build focus. Power dps for explosives, condi dps for firearms. If there is ever a specialization that focuses primarily on kits, it would most likely be tools with kit specific traits augmenting different roles scattered to their respective trait lines. For example, Juggernaut should be made a general kit trait and moved to tools because it does nothing to improve the condi capabilities of flamethrower aside from some might stacking and would generally improve all kits. If flamethrower is ever made into a true condi weapon, then their should be a flamethrower trait in firearms.

The same goes for the other kits, like grenadier has no business being in explosives since grenade kit is a condi weapon. Throw velocity does not belong on a trait, velocity should be a base attribute of the weapon and balanced according to what feels right. The trait should improve aspects of the kit, while not being required to use the kit. Grenadier could increase the number of grenades thrown, and grenades could stack conditions based on how many grenades hit. Grenade kit is probably a poor example because it only offers damage, and has no other utility, so there is very little reason to run it unless you are also using the trait. Tool kit and elixir gun are better examples, because both offer great utility on their own, but you could imagine taking a trait to improve them and fill a desired roll better.

@"Opopanax.1803" said:Very good, insightful post, Zex.

The only issue I could see is that Tools would then become mandatory.

Thank you for the compliment.

Its been a while since HoT came out, and correct me if i'm wrong, but weren't most core builds centered around these core mechanic specializations? At least on necromancer I always ran soul reaping to improve death shroud. Engineer was always a little strange because they didn't have much of a core mechanic, so inventions was usually taken because turrets were so good.

Would this make tools mandatory for core engineer? Maybe if you want to be competitive, but that's not much different than any of the other core classes. And elite specializations would have to choose between general improvements of their mechanics, or more focused improvements by taking the other trait lines. Pretty much all the meta builds for PvP follow a basic formula: Elite spec, mechanic spec, build focus spec.

[Opopanax.1803]

I hear what you are saying, but I do think kits are different because they really are adding a weapon swap mechanic. To tie all of your swaps to one trait line is very different than other professions.

I just think the caution would be to not end up like thieves Trickery line, that is mandatory for initiative regeneration. They complain about it often...

I do think you are onto something with addressing toolbelt skills and kits but think that the concept needs refining to ensure build viability outside the tools traitline. Can you think of a way to address that with your idea, or a modification of it?

[Zex Anthon.8673]

Not all kit traits would be tied to tools. You would have kit specific traits (traits that only affect one kit) on other specifications geared towards that kit/specification's focus.

However, you bring up a good point. You don't want the make tools so powerful that your handicapping yourself by not taking it. On core you don't really have an issue because you can take tools and still have access two other specializations. On elite specs you run into the issue where two of your specializations are occupied by mandatory specs, in the case of thief that's DD/DE + Trickery. This is awful for build diversity.

Kit traits could be balanced such that kit specific traits provide more benefit than generalized kit traits and a balanced by the fact that they only affect a single kit. So, if you run flamethrower and elixir gun, and you use them equally, then you would run firearms and alchemy. But, if you really like flamethrower and only take elixir gun for the added utility, then you would swap alchemy for tools to get a stronger flamethrower kit while still improving alchemy, but to a lesser extent. This way you can shift power around your build while also maintaining a total power balance among all builds

[Slapinator.4196]

I kinda don't get the way this post discussion is heading, I am going to repeat what I originally wrote :Kit traits in explosives should be merged or made baseline so that there is more room for different traits that may even improve other utilities.Juggernaut either must affect all kits or be reworked into something that doesn't need kits to work, kinda like the recent change but more impactful.Health Insurance in Alchemy shouldn't be tied to Med Kit it should affect all healing skills.

[Ardid.7203]

@Zex Anthon.8673 said:Not all kit traits would be tied to tools. You would have kit specific traits (traits that only affect one kit) on other specifications geared towards that kit/specification's focus.

However, you bring up a good point. You don't want the make tools so powerful that your handicapping yourself by not taking it. On core you don't really have an issue because you can take tools and still have access two other specializations. On elite specs you run into the issue where two of your specializations are occupied by mandatory specs, in the case of thief that's DD/DE + Trickery. This is awful for build diversity.

Kit traits could be balanced such that kit specific traits provide more benefit than generalized kit traits and a balanced by the fact that they only affect a single kit. So, if you run flamethrower and elixir gun, and you use them equally, then you would run firearms and alchemy. But, if you really like flamethrower and only take elixir gun for the added utility, then you would swap alchemy for tools to get a stronger flamethrower kit while still improving alchemy, but to a lesser extent. This way you can shift power around your build while also maintaining a total power balance among all builds@Zex Anthon.8673I must say I found your posts to be the more clear and insightful on all the discussions around changing/improving Engie mechanics.I don't agree with all your opinions, but your analysis is solid, and IMO correctly expresses what some of us have been trying to say for a long time:Kits must be recognized as a proper Profession Mechanic, the purpose of each Kit needs to be better established, and the build diversity/ balance problem must be solved through a deep, methodical and well planned rework that gives a proper place to every aspect of the Engineer, not by mere superficial tweaks here and there.

[Josif.2015]

@Zex Anthon.8673 said:

@Samug.6512 said:I think reworking one trait line specifically for kits is an interesting idea. Moving all kit traits (both specific for kits like Grenadier and Streamlined Kits) to (eg) Firearms and then reworking Explosives so we can pick whether it augments our power damage or condi damage (like swapping condi traits from Firearms to Explosives in exchange for kit traits) could probably tidy things up a bit.

The same goes for the other kits, like grenadier has no business being in explosives since grenade kit is a condi weapon. Throw velocity does not belong on a trait, velocity should be a base attribute of the weapon and balanced according to what feels right. The trait should improve aspects of the kit, while not being required to use the kit. Grenadier could increase the number of grenades thrown, and grenades could stack conditions based on how many grenades hit. Grenade kit is probably a poor example because it only offers damage, and has no other utility, so there is very little reason to run it unless you are also using the trait. Tool kit and elixir gun are better examples, because both offer great utility on their own, but you could imagine taking a trait to improve them and fill a desired roll better.

No other profession has this kind of trait like Grenadier, so why is engineer the only one? On the topic of increasing the number of grenades thrown, the old Grenadier trait used to do that. With the old Grenadier, you could throw an extra 3rd grenade (used to throw 2 instead of 3 before 3 were made baseline) at 1,500 range. It would be great if the trait got reworked similar to the old Grenadier trait so that the throw velocity and explosion radius are made baseline, it reduces cooldown on grenade skills by 20% and increasing the throw range from 900 to 1,200.

[Ghos.1326]

@"Slapinator.4196" said:

Juggernaut should be reworked to affect all kits but instead of granting might and stability, it should boost the condition application capabilities of all Kits (except Med Kit I guess).

I don't think Juggernaut should effect all kits, nor should it boost condition application either. Lets have a look at the term Juggernaut in itself.A juggernaut in current English usage, is a literal or metaphorical force regarded as mercilessly destructive and unstoppable.hence the might gain and stability. It's "unstoppable" because you can't stop its onslaught using CC, and it's "destructive" because it gains might at intervals as well, now capping at around 4 stacks instead of the 5 baseline pre patch.One thing I would like to see changed for the trait, is if they are aiming to keep it a "flamethrower camping" kit, they should either heavily increase the defensive capabilities of the trait, or throw in some added vitality, maybe 7-10k worth of it (700-1000 extra vit).This would put the kit in a duelist or bunker role, being able to take 1v1s with more than just a couple of amulets like the defensive ones. With damage as high as it is currently, I don't see adding in more defense or vitality could be an issue. But, keep it power based for the sake of what a juggernaut is.All in all, this is just a kind disagreement.

[Zex Anthon.8673]

@"Slapinator.4196" said:I kinda don't get the way this post discussion is heading, I am going to repeat what I originally wrote :Kit traits in explosives should be merged or made baseline so that there is more room for different traits that may even improve other utilities.Juggernaut either must affect all kits or be reworked into something that doesn't need kits to work, kinda like the recent change but more impactful.Health Insurance in Alchemy shouldn't be tied to Med Kit it should affect all healing skills.

What I was getting at was that kit traits right now are set up like a profession mechanic, not a utility set. If Anet wants to keep kits as a utility skill, then they should do what you suggest and normalize kit traits. However, if they do that, they need to add more traits that improve toolbelt abilities. That way toolbelts can more properly fill its role as a profession mechanic. You also say that we need to make more room for traits that improve other utilities, but elixirs, gadgets, and turrets already have traits and they don't really fit in explosives or firearms. Engineer needs more utility "types" that way we can have actual utility traits for explosives and firearms.

I don't like the idea of normalizing kit traits because it would makes kits even more irrelevant, and I really think kits are the heart and soul of the engineer class, not toolbelts. There really isn't much you can do with tool belts, maybe more traits like static discharge and kinetic battery, but that would get redundant and the class would lose a lot of identity without being kit central.

@Ardid.7203 said:I must say I found your posts to be the more clear and insightful on all the discussions around changing/improving Engie mechanics.I don't agree with all your opinions, but your analysis is solid, and IMO correctly expresses what some of us have been trying to say for a long time:Kits must be recognized as a proper Profession Mechanic, the purpose of each Kit needs to be better established, and the build diversity/ balance problem must be solved through a deep, methodical and well planned rework that gives a proper place to every aspect of the Engineer, not by mere superficial tweaks here and there.

I liked your comment on this thread (How would you redesign the engineer?). I think it lays out nicely what each kit should do and where its traits should go.

@Ardid.7203 said:IMO, one kit per traitline is good.You can get all of them if you want, from f1 to f5, but to get the optimal version, you have to take the corresponding traitline.

Alchemy -> Elixir Gun KitFirearms -> Flamethrower KitTools -> Tool KitInventions -> Turret Kit (All the utility turrets became a single kit, plus a melee auto that repairs like current toolkit auto)Explosives -> Demolition Kit (Grenades+Bomb kits get fused, auto is melee bomb, the rest are ground targeted)Scrapper -> Gyro Kit (Only on F5)Holosmith -> Photon Forge Kit (Only on F5)

I disagree with the turret kit, and the placement of the tool kit. Turrets should remain a standalone utility, and tool kit should have skills and traits governed by inventions which interact with turrets. Tools, being the mechanic specialization, should have the traits that generally improve kits.

@Hoodie.1045 said:No other profession has this kind of trait like Grenadier, so why is engineer the only one? On the topic of increasing the number of grenades thrown, the old Grenadier trait used to do that. With the old Grenadier, you could throw an extra grenade 3rd grenade (used to throw 2 instead of 3 before 3 were made baseline) at 1,500 range. It would be great if the trait got reworked similar to the old Grenadier trait so that the throw velocity and explosion radius are made baseline, it reduces cooldown on grenade skills by 20% and increasing the throw range from 900 to 1,200.

I have no idea what the design intent was when engineer was made. Its like they wanted to make kits the class mechanic, but constrained themselves with the toolbelt mechanic, so they decided to make kits a utility skill.

I think this would be a much better grenadier trait than what we have. Traits should improve certain aspects of a kit, but not be required for the kit to function on its own, improving the range and reducing the CDs is a perfect example of this.

[Opopanax.1803]

I think their design conundrum was that having 4 f key kits would force piano play, and they wanted choices. I don't think they predicted that people would actually pay 4 kit builds and that much of the kits would be mandatory in "best dps" builds.

As a result, they are now in a pickle on what to do with core Engi. My gut tells me no !mechanic reworks, only better elite specs.

[Ardid.7203]

@"Zex Anthon.8673" said:

I liked your comment on this thread (How would you redesign the engineer?). I think it lays out nicely what each kit should do and where its traits should go.

@"Ardid.7203" said:IMO, one kit per traitline is good.You can get all of them if you want, from f1 to f5, but to get the optimal version, you have to take the corresponding traitline.

Alchemy -> Elixir Gun KitFirearms -> Flamethrower KitTools -> Tool KitInventions -> Turret Kit (All the utility turrets became a single kit, plus a melee auto that repairs like current toolkit auto)Explosives -> Demolition Kit (Grenades+Bomb kits get fused, auto is melee bomb, the rest are ground targeted)Scrapper -> Gyro Kit (Only on F5)Holosmith -> Photon Forge Kit (Only on F5)

I disagree with the turret kit, and the placement of the tool kit. Turrets should remain a standalone utility, and tool kit should have skills and traits governed by inventions which interact with turrets. Tools, being the mechanic specialization, should have the traits that generally improve kits.

I had not read your take on Tools by then, and was mostly giving very general ideas, so I concur with your disagreement on that. I think turrets are impossible to save right now, so I put them on a Kit just to make them somewhat more controllable... But of course if we free Tools to be the "General Engie Mechanic Line", then Tool Kit should have priority. It may be a little weird to put it into Inventions, but IMO i could work just fine.