Signet of Locust

[Dadnir.5038]

@"Nimon.7840" said:Not saying that it needs an invuln.But consider this:I think that traiting signets on necro is a huge waste. Why? Well those traited bonuses are way too little.Instead, you can get 20% more damage or (even after the damage nerf) a very good skill that corrupts up to 4 boons to conditions and gives insane amounts of retaliation.

Based on the signets you take, you can get 90 extra power as well, an increase on health gained when hit or even a faster LF gen. You also benefit from a good CD decrease. In a signet build, the trait is definitely worth it.

Also, signets don't give their passives while on cd.So you loose 25 movespeed.And while playing with the signet, you don't want to use swiftness skills, as they overwrite the signet, by giving 33 movespeed.So the passive gets extremely useless while having swiftness. Sure swiftness can get corrupted, but that's most likely by another necro, where you don't need as much movement as you need it against other classes. Also 25 is pretty bad if you compare it to other classes that can give themselves perma-swiftness.

Traited the passive apply when in shroud even when they are on CD. Also, those 25% speed boost might be a waste in your eyes but I know 2 core professions (guardian and mesmer) that really were jealous of such "passive" movement speed increase. Remember that mesmers, before HoT were stuck using a single runeset whatever the build they wanted to use due to not having any option for movement speed increase (things certainly changed but, 25% movement speed is still valuable)

Next up the active:Even though it heals a lot against 5 targets, it's still bad.Why?Here's why: in a 1v1 situation it's only 1500 heal, that's pretty low. Guess it's okayish, because it's in addition to the heal skill. But taking a utility that just gives 1500 heal and nothing else, is pretty dumb I think.

The active is not only a heal. It also deal damage that proc on hit effects which mean that your 1500 heal are already potentially 1600 if you take BM alongside.

And against many targets: well they should be focussing the necromancer, so you shouldn't have enough time to actually cast the signet, without getting interrupted. Even if it could potentially heal for a lot, it's still a wasted slot, especially with the powercreep happening nowadays.

That was from a PvP perspective.

Guess in pve it's fine. Cause enemies are way more predictable. But even there,... It's interesting for people, that don't know how or when to dodge, or for some really cheesy tactics to solo some mobs. But outside of this very niche, it's pretty much useless I think.Movespeed isn't needed because of mounts

No, again an "exclusive" PvP remark that fall off the mark. In PvE there is little value for such active skill simply because PvE isn't a gamemode where such way to sustain is needed. This skill main selling point in PvE is the movement passive buff. The active shine against mesmers/summoners or as soon as you are surounded by players, so it's use is for PvP/WvW.

Maybe 1v1 is what you think make up most of the game (which is the point of view of a solo PvP roamer and is in fact a small part of the game) but the game is a multiplayer game, not a solo game. It's true that many PvP tactic favor splitting up your team and that you'll often encounter 1v1 situation but numerical superiority is also a valid tactic and in case of the necromancer it's even truer.

If we had to compare SoL with another skill this would be with a signet way before even trying to compare it to an invuln skill. The closest one would be Dolyak signet. Dolyak signet is instant, break stun, heal and grant stability on use, but the heal is weaker, don't scale on the opponents number and the CD is longer while it also doesn't deal direct damage on use. And we have to add to that that the core warrior thematic make him more of a melee profession while the core necromancer thematic make it more of a mid/backline profession which give sense to the 2 signet effects.

[Nimon.7840]

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@"Nimon.7840" said:Not saying that it needs an invuln.But consider this:I think that traiting signets on necro is a huge waste. Why? Well those traited bonuses are way too little.Instead, you can get 20% more damage or (even after the damage nerf) a very good skill that corrupts up to 4 boons to conditions and gives insane amounts of retaliation.

Based on the signets you take, you can get 90 extra power as well, an increase on health gained when hit or even a faster LF gen. You also benefit from a good CD decrease. In a signet build, the trait is definitely worth it.

Maybe. But who's playing signet builds anywhere?

Also, signets don't give their passives while on cd.So you loose 25 movespeed.And while playing with the signet, you don't want to use swiftness skills, as they overwrite the signet, by giving 33 movespeed.So the passive gets extremely useless while having swiftness. Sure swiftness can get corrupted, but that's most likely by another necro, where you don't need as much movement as you need it against other classes. Also 25 is pretty bad if you compare it to other classes that can give themselves perma-swiftness.

Traited the passive apply when in shroud even when they are on CD. Also, those 25% speed boost might be a waste in your eyes but I know 2 core professions (guardian and mesmer) that really were jealous of such "passive" movement speed increase. Remember that mesmers, before HoT were stuck using a single runeset whatever the build they wanted to use due to not having any option for movement speed increase (things certainly changed but, 25% movement speed is still valuable)

The problem is, that we're not stuck in core game anymore. You have to look for actual skills.And any class has more movement than necro. Either with teleports or easy swiftness application or even both.Before hot (or was it while hot?) Signets actually corrupted boons, so they were of use. Now they don't do that anymore.

Next up the active:Even though it heals a lot against 5 targets, it's still bad.Why?Here's why: in a 1v1 situation it's only 1500 heal, that's pretty low. Guess it's okayish, because it's in addition to the heal skill. But taking a utility that just gives 1500 heal and nothing else, is pretty dumb I think.

The active is not only a heal. It also deal damage that proc on hit effects which mean that your 1500 heal are already potentially 1600 if you take BM alongside.What would you provide here? Even if you'd play something that procs on hit, or after weapon swap, an autoattacks will proceed the sigill way faster.And where do you take your damage from? Necro isn't really about sustaining and sustained damage, it's more likely burst.

And against many targets: well they should be focussing the necromancer, so you shouldn't have enough time to actually cast the signet, without getting interrupted. Even if it could potentially heal for a lot, it's still a wasted slot, especially with the powercreep happening nowadays.

That was from a PvP perspective.

Guess in pve it's fine. Cause enemies are way more predictable. But even there,... It's interesting for people, that don't know how or when to dodge, or for some really cheesy tactics to solo some mobs. But outside of this very niche, it's pretty much useless I think.Movespeed isn't needed because of mounts

No, again an "exclusive" PvP remark that fall off the mark. In PvE there is little value for such active skill simply because PvE isn't a gamemode where such way to sustain is needed. This skill main selling point in PvE is the movement passive buff.

Which isn't needed because of mounts. Even if I have to walk like only 5 meters, I use the raptor for it's because it's faster.

The active shine against mesmers/summoners or as soon as you are surounded by players, so it's use is for PvP/WvW.

Good luck surviving you being surrounded by more than 1 player. I'm not playing much of spvp. So I can mainly speak of wvw. But if you meet more than one player as a roaming necro, you are most likely dead, because they either just burst you, or heavily cc you, or they just kite you.

Either way, if they aren't completely stupid, you are dead before you can use the signet. An in the last case, they will stay out of range so your signet hits nothing but air.

Maybe 1v1 is what you think make up most of the game (which is the point of view of a solo PvP roamer and is in fact a small part of the game) but the game is a multiplayer game, not a solo game. It's true that many PvP tactic favor splitting up your team and that you'll often encounter 1v1 situation but numerical superiority is also a valid tactic and in case of the necromancer it's even truer.

Didn't you read? Can you read? I also mentioned a multiplayer situation:

"And against many targets: well they should be focussing the necromancer, so you shouldn't have enough time to actually cast the signet, without getting interrupted. Even if it could potentially heal for a lot, it's still a wasted slot, especially with the powercreep happening nowadays."

In case you didn't understand what I was saying, I'll explain:Let's say you have 5 people in your group.And let's say there's one healer/support (yes you will need one. Any good PvP playing necro will tell you this)And the enemy (also 5 people) is engaging you, whom do they focus? - The necro, if not, they are really bad.Do you think that you will survive a good burst from 3-5 classes, even with a support? - guess what, you wont. (Powercreep yay)Are you able to cast the signet then? - you won't be able to

Next case: you are still 5, one being a support. You meet a group of three. Will you use the signet? - you won't. Why? - because you are four dds and enemy has maximum three, you should be able to outpressure them and they might have to handle your team members damage first, before being able to focus you

Next case: you still the same group, meet 10 enemies. Do you think you will be able to use the signet? - you won't, they will just roll over you.

If we had to compare SoL with another skill this would be with a signet way before even trying to compare it to an invuln skill. The closest one would be Dolyak signet. Dolyak signet is instant, break stun, heal and grant stability on use, but the heal is weaker, don't scale on the opponents number and the CD is longer while it also doesn't deal direct damage on use. And we have to add to that that the core warrior thematic make him more of a melee profession while the core necromancer thematic make it more of a mid/backline profession which give sense to the 2 signet effects.

So if you really wanna compare: in which of my 3 scenarios of group Vs group could you use the necro signet, and in which the warrior one?Warrior one can be used in all three, while necro signet might only be used in the one situation, you outnumber the enemy, but then there's better skills to just burst the enemy.

You have to consider necro builds played right now. In wvw it's most likely a grieving build, maybe power, or cele (Scourge) ,or power for reaper builds.And other classes builds.

If you do that, you won't see much use of sotl.Also vampirism gets very bad if you keep other profession builds in mind.It needs you to get hit, to get passive heal. Do you let yourself get hit by 7k rev autoattack or 10k coalescence of ruin, for 500heal? Don't think so. If other classes would do many small hits, this would be a good signet (well there's still the icd -.-).But that's not how the game is working right now.

And even on a full power build sotl won't kill mesmer phantasms. Maybe it heals you but they are still up afterwards, ready to oneshot you.

I don't know what you are playing against. But I myself look for opponents, that are evenly or higher skilled than me, to learn and get better.If you are only fighting new or bad players, you will get away, using sotl.But there's a very good reason, no good necro player ever touches sotl.

[Dadnir.5038]

@"Nimon.7840" said:Maybe. But who's playing signet builds anywhere?

I'll stop at this quote because this is the root of the issue. You assume that nobody use signet build because you have poor opinion on necromancer's signet. Even if it was true that nobody use signet, this wouldn't make signet needing a buff. You put your own opinion above anything else and judge something based on this biased opinion. You need to look at things objectively not launch a "that's bad, nobody use it anywhere anyways." or, worst, "there are better option". All your arguments take their root in this single bias of yours that signet are no good and not worth using because they no longer grant might and corrupt boons.

Just take an objective look at SotL and even at SoS and forget what you know/experienced for once. You'll see that both are already very strong skills and thus don't need more useless powercreep on them.

NB.: SotL worth isn't in "getting away" from other players, simply because necromancer isn't supposed to "get away" from it's foes. The necromancer is thematically very aggressive, most of what he does is done through aggression. A necromancer thematic force him to push forward, not dodge or fall back. And this thematic is engraved into each and every necromancer's skill.

[Nimon.7840]

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@"Nimon.7840" said:Maybe. But who's playing signet builds anywhere?

I'll stop at this quote because this is the root of the issue. You assume that nobody use signet build because you have poor opinion on necromancer's signet. Even if it was true that nobody use signet, this wouldn't make signet needing a buff. You put your own opinion above anything else and judge something based on this biased opinion. You need to look at things objectively not launch a "that's bad, nobody use it anywhere anyways." or, worst, "there are better option". All your arguments take their root in this single bias of yours that signet are no good and not worth using because they no longer grant might and corrupt boons.

Just take an objective look at SotL and even at SoS and forget what you know/experienced for once. You'll see that both are already very strong skills and thus don't need more useless powercreep on them.

NB.: SotL worth isn't in "getting away" from other players, simply because necromancer isn't supposed to "get away" from it's foes. The necromancer is thematically very aggressive, most of what he does is done through aggression. A necromancer thematic force him to push forward, not dodge or fall back. And this thematic is engraved into each and every necromancer's skill.

Why do I keep arguing with pve players that don't play much of PvP?I do not assume, nobody uses sotl. I know, no good player uses sotl.I did take an objective look. I even tried it out every now and then. But everytime I do, it's more like:Ok, ability c would have been better now. Or: Oh, nice , locust didn't give me anything this fight

All my arguments were from my experience playing with the signet.

You didn't give a single example, where sotl is good. It's more like: it's good because it exists. Or: it's good because I like the name.

That's like saying, it's good to have cancer, because it exists. (Ok, that's not funny, but maybe shows how wrong you are)

The root of the issue isn't me. It's you. Again. Why do you think, noone plays sotl in competitive?

Even though I don't like linking metabattle. As builds there sometimes suck and have 5star ratings. Why do you think, there isn't a single necromancer build on metabattle that uses sotl?Why isn't it used in raids if it's that great of a skill?

Do all those people that play the game alot, have no clue how the game works but you do?I'm on average playing the game 2-4hours a day.

And I tried lots and lots of builds. Guess what, every time I used signet trait and signets, it 1. Felt awful and 2. didn't give me any benefit.I even tried to make a build specifically for signets.It sucked.Because signets suck.

Why isnt the signet trait taken for pve on power reaper, to get 90more power?

Because the 20% more damage is way stronger!Same goes for the corrupt in PvP modes. Why does everyone in PvP play the corrupt trait while having spite equipped? - because it's way way better than the signet trait.

And not only sotl sucks.While plage signet is nice, condicleanses and stunbreak. It will more likely kill you than giving you benefit while being traited.aybe not if you are playing alone, but you said, I'm not talking bout groups.Cause that's how it works in groups, it either kills you passively, by transferring your allies conditions on you, or it kills you by using it, so you don't get the conditions, but then you loose your only stunbreak if you are playing signets.

Same goes for Vampirism.It needs you to get hit, to get value out of the passive.Maybe it has uses on core and reaper, where you can use the active, have the trait, then go into shroud and regenerate health, but even there, you don't want to get hit by nowadays powercreeped skills. Like rev sword 4, will trigger the passive once, but hit you 6 times.Rev autoattack, 6-7k autoattacks and you want to facetank them to get 500heal?Not the way to go mate.

But let's go back to the activating before going into shroud.You get a decent amount of Heal from the active, but you will never ever be able to have the signet back up, when leaving shroud. And also you don't want to stay longer in shroud for the passive to heal you, than till the point you are full health, wasting your shroud uptime and therefore loosing a lot of offensive pressure.

Yeah. Maybe necro signets don't need changes. But they don't fit in the meta, with powercreep that's happening right now.

You cannot counter powercreep by okayish skills. You need other powercreeped skills to counter them or nerf powercreeped skills.

Let's give an example:Let's say someone uses a skill that does 20k damage out of stealth. How do you content this?You can't. That's powercreep without counterplay and it's actually possible right now in wvw.

Sou you would need something that permanently reveals stealthed enemies around you, which would be pretty op as well.

Or you tone down any damage in pvp-modes. Like maximum 50% damage. So that the one that plays better wins the fight, and not the one with more invulns, easy burst combos and teleports or evades.So that vitality is worth something, that your health is worth something.

[DuckDuckBOOM.4097]

@DuckDuckBOOM.4097 said:Main reason I haven't tried crusader spite/blood/(reaper, scourge or SR) build is because I'm still bitter about the change to SoS and I miss the corrupts on signets. Also not a huge fan of playing bunker builds regardless of what class. However, I cant help but think about a traited dagger 2/SoS/bunker build and think it's crazy OP sustain on the base class despite signets being a disjointed mess now. Realistically, it's probably not OP but hypothetically it's crazy to balance with that in mind.

@"Nimon.7840" said:Why do I keep arguing with pve players that don't play much of PvP?...snip

I'm talking from a PvP not PvE perspective here: Specifically someone that ran the old SoS, 2 other signet traits and 3 signets in my build as core necro (spite/curses/blood) or reaper (spite/curses/reaper) for multiple seasons. I now runs corrupt boon/master of corruption because I love corrupting boons too much.

I get what you mean by SoS costing too much. At least 2 utility slots and not bringing SS tanks a necros ability to chain corrupt boons. It's really hard to justify a 3rd signet and not a second stun break or corrupt boon. In general, I survive those 6-7k auto attacks by corrupting the 25 might, fury and stability into weakness, blind and fear so that they aren't 6-7k auto attacks. So the loss of boon corruption is definitely felt.

However, it's also really important to kite/do mini JP in PvP (less relevant to wvw roaming but anet doesn't balance for that) to prevent LoS and dmg. It's been a while since I used SoL in PvP but if I recall correctly, it doesn't require line of sight while doing aoe damage. So if you kite properly in team fights, especially when mesmers and rangers are involved, you can hit 3-5 targets with SoL while not getting 1 shot if you position properly.

Since Anet removed corrupts on SoS, I think they are going for "option 3" on survival. A bruiser/tank variant that doesn't corrupt as much but sustains much better than most meta builds. Example builds I just threw together:Reaper:http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vRAQRBIhdu1JNiQlNYnNg3mA9mYBXwgGABgFQcVsLGGnKCNh+FA-j5ACRAg9HSlBwPAAACore necro:****http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vRAQRBIhdu1JNiQlNYnNgtNAHO4AXogDQAsAzioJ6XaXEHfBA-j5ACRA4HAQqMAY/BA

Both builds have 1k healing on vamp signet passive. When you cast it, you gain 5.6k heal and then 956 (800+110+46 vamp aura) life steal for you and your allies. If you take spiteful renewal, add a 1k heal and condi clear on top of that. You go into shroud and now SoS gives you back the passive 1k heal even though Vamp sig is on CD because SoS gives you the passives while in shroud. Your life steal per hit is now 1066 (800+220+46) while in shroud. SotL heals you for 2.3k per target hit or up to 11.5k. If you go into shroud for at least 14 seconds, both vamp sig and Sotl will be off CD when you exit. Even if you don't stay in shroud for the full 14 seconds, the CD is still greatly reduced. Dagger 2 will heal you for (450+138+110+46)= 744 per tick or 6696 for the full 9 ticks on a 7 second CD. Dagger 2 can heal 8k if you are bleeding for the 20% bonus healing. All of this is not calculated with the 450 healing power from blood.

For the reaper variant, blighters boon heals for 233 per boon and shouts heal 153 per target and rise is there to reduce damage taken. Both have some corrupts on weapons + chill of death although they are lacking for my personal taste. DM instead of SR might work even better with something like crusader gear but that doesn't exist in PvP.

I'm not saying these are OP or should be meta but can you really say that those build don't have some crazy sustain? Most of it is on the base class too which means any current or future elite spec has access to it. It won't win monthlies but I'm sure a casual player could do well enough with this in solo q. Not every build needs to be in plat 3/legend worthy but I would consider them viable.

20k from stealth in WvW needs a change. Under no circumstance does that mean vamp sig or SotL needs a buff.

[Obtena.7952]

I think it's important to note that people who take signets, for whatever reason, aren't doing it because they care about skills that give them better DPS options. If then answer to choosing skills was always "take whatever gives best DPS", then most of the discussions would be instantly shut down because a HUGE number of the choices we have available to build with are completely irrelevant to DPS. I don't see how 'better DPS options' impacts the fact that SoL possesses a massive healing potential that can't be ignored when proposing changes to the skill.

Who is playing Signet builds? People that like the utility of signets. That doesn't make the discussion any more or less relevant. The real question is why someone who doesn't play signet builds is in a discussion about them in the first place?

[dceptaconroy.7928]

I agree with everyone equally. My opinion on this.....fix focus 4.

[Nimon.7840]

I tried locust and vampirism again yesterday in sPvP. Sure it was only a off-season match. Anything can happen there.I even Had top healing.

Seems like there it's okayish. But there's a lot of things countering those signets. Blocks, invulns, dodges.Sure you can also dodge other abilities, but they won't punish you as hard. As you have to compare it with another defensive ability.Like spectral armor.

Sure enemy can just not attack. But that's good for you.If enemy dodges the signets, you will miss a lot of healing.

And I met a lot of holosmiths, guards, warriors and thiefes yesterday.And even though I duoqueued with a friend (he played core, I played power signet reaper with the two signets mentioned above, + bloodmagic and the signet trait, Power-Precision-Vitality-Healpower amulett). We won the matches we played. So our enemies haven't been that good.

But it's very annoying. U should never use signet of vampirism against someone, who can block it. You won't get any healing from the lifesiphon thing.Same goes for locust.Overall, it was funny to play with them, but other builds work more smooth I think. Also you miss a lot of damage by taking BM and signet trait. One of them is clearly enough sustain.

But in wvw it's not worth taking healpower. It's either burst the enemy or die horribly due to the enemy kiting and outsustain you even in groups, or just chain-cc and burst you.Maybe it's worth on a full tank necro spec. Acting like a punching bag for the enemy, so that they blow all their hard damage onto the necro.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

the signet is fine with the trait and youre in a team fight. I've used a signet build from time to time and its worked out ok. awesome sustain.