Small Change ideas for Deadeye to make them more Healthy

[Isle of Stars.3049]

@Ruufio.1496 said:Rare to see mains thinking objectively about their own class. Kudos to you guys.

Most of us really abhor this abomination. Simply because it's not fun to play with, and not fun to play against.

[babazhook.6805]

@DeceiverX.8361 said:I was assuming SA as a constant since that's generally the build people are upset over and that with SA it doesn't even need multi-leaps of BP to maintain the same resource cost, but yes you are correct in that without SA it is less resource-intensive for DE.

Yes but SA has to be SA. Those who invest in the line give up offense for defense and if one is vested in a stealth based line then one should have more access to stealth and or it should enhance what one can do while in stealth. Arguing against that is akin to saying people who invest in CS should not see more benefits from Criticals.

As to DE versus DD. DE is to SA what DD is to Acro. DD gets more dodges/vigor. They can increase that even more if they take ACRO with DD. That not necessarily a bad thing anymore then investing in CS/DA brings yet more in the way of damage. DE used with SA means more stealth. Again nothing wrong with the concept. A straight across board shave of 1 second to ALL stealth utilities (Outisde the one second add in SA) across all classes might also be an option. This includes Hunters shot , the prestige and the like along with the thief sources. That said none of this can happen in a vacuum. There so much damage running around out there removing the ability to mitigate might open up added problems.

I see the SA line as solid and well designed outside a few outliers which is simply a matter of subtle tweaks.

[Misquesh.9504]

Delete this post and create another one, asking developers to completely separate PvP and PvE balance. After you get that one through - ask for whatever PvP nerfs you want. Just keep in mind that ideas like yours murder the fun of people that are not even interested in all the PvP-surrounding drama.

[Exitus.3297]

@"Misquesh.9504" said:Delete this post and create another one, asking developers to completely separate PvP and PvE balance. After you get that one through - ask for whatever PvP nerfs you want. Just keep in mind that ideas like yours murder the fun of people that are not even interested in all the PvP-surrounding drama.

Right, because being able to completely one shot people from stealth due to all of the stacking damage modifiers + Quickness with no reasonable counterplay is totally not the antithesis of fun to the person on the receiving end. Seriously, this style of play has become a meme. There is a reason highly rated Thief players make fun of it.

I'm really curious as to why you think my specific suggestions "murder the fun" for people not interested in PvP. Deadeye in PvE is mostly a ramp up build that requires Malice stacking, and none of my suggested changes would affect that ramp up. Even then, one of my suggested changes literally makes it so a DE can mark a target and only set off the Quickness when they actually want to and not be forced to attack spontaneously. Regardless, they were only suggestions. I'm not invested on seeing these specific things happening.

As far as I'm concerned, I honestly no longer care. ANet is at least addressing the Stealth-on-dodge trait in the next patch so I'm pretty much happy.

[kash.9213]

@Exitus.3297 said:Hey guys,

Considering the overall reaction Thief players had to the last balance patch, I wanted to throw out some ideas that ANet could have made to make burst from Deadeyes more healthy without affecting Thieves as a whole.

• Malicious Intent: Currently adds one stack of Malice when marking a target or when using a stealth attack on a marked target.Suggested change: Marking a target makes the next Initiative-consuming skill add an extra stack of Malice. Stealth attacks still also apply Malice. This will lower the overall burst of anyone using Backstab or Death's Judgement (both of which get more % damage per stack of Malice) as an opener. The feel of the trait remains intact in terms of Malice generation.

• Be Quick or Be Killed: Currently causes Deadeye's Mark to also apply 4s of Quickness. Quickness from any source also causes the Deadeye to gain 200 Power and Precision.Suggested change: The Deadeye gains a buff that is consumed (meaning they don't get it again until the next use of Deadeye's Mark) when the Deadeye successfully damages the marked target with a Stealth Attack (Death's Judgement, Malicious Backstab, etc.). Consuming the buff grants the Deadeye 5s of Quickness. Quickness still gives the Deadeye 200 Power and Precision. The Quickness is applied AFTER the damage, meaning the stealth attack will not benefit from the 200 Power and Precision boost unless they already had Quickness from another source. This change would be intended to accomplish a couple of things. The first is that this will lower on the damage of the initial stealth attack from just the one trait without wrecking the feel of the trait, while also giving it a tiny bit more Quickness in return. Secondly, by tying the Quickness to a buff that gets consumed, it will allow the Deadeye to apply the mark preemptively instead of holding on to it specifically for the Quickness (they can plan it out better, basically).

• Silent Scope: Currently grants increased Precision, even more so with a Rifle Equipped. Dodge rolling with a Rifle also grants stealth.Suggested Change: Dodge Rolling no longer grants stealth (I'm honestly not sure what to replace it with but I think we can agree that the stealth on dodge is cancerous)

---

For anyone who is interested beyond reading beyond these suggested changes, I really had to put some thought into this. Specifically, I wanted to think of changes specifically to the Deadeye to make their burst more manageable. I know some will say that the Deadeye needs to be rebuilt from the ground up, and they may be right, but I wanted to start small. I was thinking about how I could make the Deadeye's burst more manageable without necessarily affecting the entire Thief class. Even then, I don't want to lower their burst per se; I was thinking of how to make their burst more of a ramp up.

It seems to me that Deadeye was intended to be a spec that generates big numbers from far away, often from stealth, but being brought into balance by the fact that they can't just get it for free from nowhere. The big numbers need to be justified by the fact that the opponent has opportunities to avoid being hit by them, or keep the buildup from happening to begin with. The key issue I'm seeing with Deadeyes at the moment (and keep in mind this is just my opinion) is that they can (or at least could) score some really big numbers right from the get-go without even needing to build up to it, or the buildup is so fast that opponents can't actually react to it. Moreover, even when their opponent does avoid the burst properly, they have very little time to put pressure on the Deadeye because they are more forgiving to play than a Core Thief or Daredevil, both due to their range and their easy access to stealth. So the thing that makes Deadeye's in particular so cancerous to fight isn't even necessarily their damage, but the fact they are difficult to punish even if you play well against them. Even if the goal was to just nerf their up-front damage a bit, well, see above changes.

What does everyone else think?

1. My sword main hand wants at least 1 malice Tactical Strike fast in a lot of fights.
2. I'm DE 1-3-2, I need to that quickness now to make the most of boons and other modifiers.
3. You could have even just suggested original Silent Scope but you couldn't bother to do that any more than you could bother to take varied builds into consideration.

[Exitus.3297]

@kash.9213 said:

@"Exitus.3297" said:Hey guys,

Considering the overall reaction Thief players had to the last balance patch, I wanted to throw out some ideas that ANet could have made to make burst from Deadeyes more healthy without affecting Thieves as a whole.

• Malicious Intent: Currently adds one stack of Malice when marking a target or when using a stealth attack on a marked target.Suggested change: Marking a target makes the next Initiative-consuming skill add an extra stack of Malice. Stealth attacks still also apply Malice. This will lower the overall burst of anyone using Backstab or Death's Judgement (both of which get more % damage per stack of Malice) as an opener. The feel of the trait remains intact in terms of Malice generation.

• Be Quick or Be Killed: Currently causes Deadeye's Mark to also apply 4s of Quickness. Quickness from any source also causes the Deadeye to gain 200 Power and Precision.Suggested change: The Deadeye gains a buff that is consumed (meaning they don't get it again until the next use of Deadeye's Mark) when the Deadeye successfully damages the marked target with a Stealth Attack (Death's Judgement, Malicious Backstab, etc.). Consuming the buff grants the Deadeye 5s of Quickness. Quickness still gives the Deadeye 200 Power and Precision. The Quickness is applied AFTER the damage, meaning the stealth attack will not benefit from the 200 Power and Precision boost unless they already had Quickness from another source. This change would be intended to accomplish a couple of things. The first is that this will lower on the damage of the initial stealth attack from just the one trait without wrecking the feel of the trait, while also giving it a tiny bit more Quickness in return. Secondly, by tying the Quickness to a buff that gets consumed, it will allow the Deadeye to apply the mark preemptively instead of holding on to it specifically for the Quickness (they can plan it out better, basically).

• Silent Scope: Currently grants increased Precision, even more so with a Rifle Equipped. Dodge rolling with a Rifle also grants stealth.Suggested Change: Dodge Rolling no longer grants stealth (I'm honestly not sure what to replace it with but I think we can agree that the stealth on dodge is cancerous)

---

For anyone who is interested beyond reading beyond these suggested changes, I really had to put some thought into this. Specifically, I wanted to think of changes specifically to the Deadeye to make their burst more manageable. I know some will say that the Deadeye needs to be rebuilt from the ground up, and they may be right, but I wanted to start small. I was thinking about how I could make the Deadeye's burst more manageable without necessarily affecting the entire Thief class. Even then, I don't want to lower their burst per se; I was thinking of how to make their burst more of a ramp up.

It seems to me that Deadeye was intended to be a spec that generates big numbers from far away, often from stealth, but being brought into balance by the fact that they can't just get it for free from nowhere. The big numbers need to be justified by the fact that the opponent has opportunities to avoid being hit by them, or keep the buildup from happening to begin with. The key issue I'm seeing with Deadeyes at the moment (and keep in mind this is just my opinion) is that they can (or at least could) score some really big numbers right from the get-go without even needing to build up to it, or the buildup is so fast that opponents can't actually react to it. Moreover, even when their opponent does avoid the burst properly, they have very little time to put pressure on the Deadeye because they are more forgiving to play than a Core Thief or Daredevil, both due to their range and their easy access to stealth. So the thing that makes Deadeye's in particular so cancerous to fight isn't even necessarily their damage, but the fact they are difficult to punish even if you play well against them. Even if the goal was to just nerf their up-front damage a bit, well, see above changes.

What does everyone else think?

1. My sword main hand wants at least 1 malice Tactical Strike fast in a lot of fights.
2. I'm DE 1-3-2, I need to that quickness now to make the most of boons and other modifiers.
3. You could have even just suggested original Silent Scope but you couldn't bother to do that any more than you could bother to take varied builds into consideration.

1. I don't understand your point. You would get the Malice on the next attack. You are basically telling me you are reliant on the 10 Endurance coming from specifically marking people, then stealthing without the use of any Initiative, then hitting with Tactical Strike. The single use of CnD would give that Initiative you are reliant on.
2. Fair enough point, but I'm still unsure how healthy it is in its current state. I see the point of needing it on demand though.
3. I had a lot of ideas of what could be done with Silent Scope but none I was sure of, and I didn't thinking that suggesting going back to what it was originally was productive. Honestly, I don't think it would have mattered to you what I would have suggested if you're going to have an attitude like that. I took a lot of time to think about this and tried to take as much into consideration as possible at that time. That's why I didn't just post "plz nurf DE" and call it a day. That is why I ended it with "what does everyone else think?". I want to actually figure it out. You were actually somewhat productive until this 3rd point when you decided it would be better for you to assume what it was I couldn't be bothered to do. If you want to tell me that you know of builds that are more varied and offer a perspective on why such changes would but shouldn't affect such a build, then say so. That is half the reason I even asked.

[kash.9213]

@Exitus.3297 said:

@kash.9213 said:

@Exitus.3297 said:Hey guys,

Considering the overall reaction Thief players had to the last balance patch, I wanted to throw out some ideas that ANet could have made to make burst from Deadeyes more healthy without affecting Thieves as a whole.

• Malicious Intent: Currently adds one stack of Malice when marking a target or when using a stealth attack on a marked target.Suggested change: Marking a target makes the next Initiative-consuming skill add an extra stack of Malice. Stealth attacks still also apply Malice. This will lower the overall burst of anyone using Backstab or Death's Judgement (both of which get more % damage per stack of Malice) as an opener. The feel of the trait remains intact in terms of Malice generation.

• Be Quick or Be Killed: Currently causes Deadeye's Mark to also apply 4s of Quickness. Quickness from any source also causes the Deadeye to gain 200 Power and Precision.Suggested change: The Deadeye gains a buff that is consumed (meaning they don't get it again until the next use of Deadeye's Mark) when the Deadeye successfully damages the marked target with a Stealth Attack (Death's Judgement, Malicious Backstab, etc.). Consuming the buff grants the Deadeye 5s of Quickness. Quickness still gives the Deadeye 200 Power and Precision. The Quickness is applied AFTER the damage, meaning the stealth attack will not benefit from the 200 Power and Precision boost unless they already had Quickness from another source. This change would be intended to accomplish a couple of things. The first is that this will lower on the damage of the initial stealth attack from just the one trait without wrecking the feel of the trait, while also giving it a tiny bit more Quickness in return. Secondly, by tying the Quickness to a buff that gets consumed, it will allow the Deadeye to apply the mark preemptively instead of holding on to it specifically for the Quickness (they can plan it out better, basically).

• Silent Scope: Currently grants increased Precision, even more so with a Rifle Equipped. Dodge rolling with a Rifle also grants stealth.Suggested Change: Dodge Rolling no longer grants stealth (I'm honestly not sure what to replace it with but I think we can agree that the stealth on dodge is cancerous)

---

For anyone who is interested beyond reading beyond these suggested changes, I really had to put some thought into this. Specifically, I wanted to think of changes specifically to the Deadeye to make their burst more manageable. I know some will say that the Deadeye needs to be rebuilt from the ground up, and they may be right, but I wanted to start small. I was thinking about how I could make the Deadeye's burst more manageable without necessarily affecting the entire Thief class. Even then, I don't want to lower their burst per se; I was thinking of how to make their burst more of a ramp up.

It seems to me that Deadeye was intended to be a spec that generates big numbers from far away, often from stealth, but being brought into balance by the fact that they can't just get it for free from nowhere. The big numbers need to be justified by the fact that the opponent has opportunities to avoid being hit by them, or keep the buildup from happening to begin with. The key issue I'm seeing with Deadeyes at the moment (and keep in mind this is just my opinion) is that they can (or at least could) score some really big numbers right from the get-go without even needing to build up to it, or the buildup is so fast that opponents can't actually react to it. Moreover, even when their opponent does avoid the burst properly, they have very little time to put pressure on the Deadeye because they are more forgiving to play than a Core Thief or Daredevil, both due to their range and their easy access to stealth. So the thing that makes Deadeye's in particular so cancerous to fight isn't even necessarily their damage, but the fact they are difficult to punish even if you play well against them. Even if the goal was to just nerf their up-front damage a bit, well, see above changes.

What does everyone else think?

1. My sword main hand wants at least 1 malice Tactical Strike fast in a lot of fights.
2. I'm DE 1-3-2, I need to that quickness now to make the most of boons and other modifiers.
3. You could have even just suggested original Silent Scope but you couldn't bother to do that any more than you could bother to take varied builds into consideration.

1. I don't understand your point. You would get the Malice on the next attack. You are basically telling me you are reliant on the 10 Endurance coming from specifically marking people, then stealthing without the use of any Initiative, then hitting with Tactical Strike. The single use of CnD would give that Initiative you are reliant on.
2. Fair enough point, but I'm still unsure how healthy it is in its current state. I see the point of needing it on demand though.
3. I had a lot of ideas of what could be done with Silent Scope but none I was sure of, and I didn't thinking that suggesting going back to what it was originally was productive. Honestly, I don't think it would have mattered to you what I would have suggested if you're going to have an attitude like that. I took a lot of time to think about this and tried to take as much into consideration as possible at that time. That's why I didn't just post "plz nurf DE" and call it a day. That is why I ended it with "what does everyone else think?". I want to actually figure it out. You were actually somewhat productive until this 3rd point when you decided it would be better for you to assume what it was I couldn't be bothered to do. If you want to tell me that you know of builds that are more varied and offer a perspective on why such changes would but shouldn't affect such a build, then say so. That is half the reason I even asked.

You made a long post to not say much beyond any other nerf DE thread, only with a little bit of shine. Don't sound hurt or attacked after your post was dismissive of every other build but the same one everyone complains about without considering what those changes would do to not only other builds but how much it would tank a build who's strength is overhyped as it is. Also I answered your third point already early on in this thread.