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Small Change ideas for Deadeye to make them more Healthy

Exitus.3297

By Exitus.3297
in Thief

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omgdracula.6345

omgdracula.6345

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@kash.9213 said:

@omgdracula.6345 said:People in here really trying to defend stealth on dodge?
That is the single most broken mechanic I have seen.
You are literally defending something that has no cooldown other than your stamina limitation that gives extreme benefits to the user. Hell it doesn't even have an ICD.

Ok, you must be pretty new to this game, right? a) Stamina is a real restriction and b) Mirage Cloak (1s dodge + can be used while stunned), Soulbeast boon stacking (in particular the damage+sustain resulting from this), Rampage and Holosmith are all perfectly balanced, right?

Yes, Endurance is a restriction. But when you have 3-4 seconds of stealth per dodge to stall the fight, with plenty of ways to increase the flow of Endurance, one has to ask how restrictive it actually is when implemented in this way.

I also find it interesting that you point out that Endurance has restrictions, just to use Mirage Cloak as a counter-example to back up your point when it is also limited to Endurance. Is Mirage Cloak too strong in its current implementation or not? I can imagine you might be equally annoyed by someone arguing "Well, it's limited to Endurance so it's balanced" in order to defend it. Keep in mind, I am fully aware of how frustrating it is to fight a Mirage as any class besides a Thief.

But I digress. Your counter-argument seems to be "These classes over here are equally if not more unbalanced." Perhaps you are correct, but it is irrelevant to this discussion. Each of the classes mentioned have their own threads/discussions on what to do with them.

I didn't mean to give counter examples. I was just referring to the claim that Silent Scope would be
"the single most broken mechanic"
in the game. That's why I mentioned e.g. Mirage Cloak which is in my opinion at least as strong as Stealth on Dodge. But I agree that mentioning Souldbeast and Holosmith is problematic, because it's not one mechanic that makes them so good atm but several skills that functions very well together.

The problem is that Deadeye was just redesigned to function like this: Stack Malice and then execute a stealth attack for a major advantage. But how should this work if you have no good access to stealth? Like e.g. on Shortbow and Sword/Pistol? So just removing the stealth trait would basically make Rifle no longer really fitting the design (yes, you can use Kneel + Sniper's Cover + Free Action + Death's Retreat but that's ridiculous and you would die trying this against any competent opponent...) which would also be stupid because it's
the
Weapon for Deadeyes...

Also, stealth is the only real defensive mechanic in nearly any Deadeye build. I mean (in WvW at least) you can run Acrobatics over Deadly Arts or Critical Strikes but this will significantly lower your damage (which is what many people want, lowering the burst) and one basically only does this to get more frequent use of Silent Scope anyway. And besides this option there is nothing left: No Rifle-skill has a build-in evade (like S/D), block or any kind of damage mitigation. You don't even have an interrupt, an unblockable attack or a reliable blind...

To sum it up: Most people believe that bringing back the old Silent Scope would fix the problem with high stealth uptime. But it is simple not true... Even before the redesign it was possible to have this amount of stealth. It was basically just better because you had stealth + dodge whenever you need it (at the cost of fluent gameplay)... Now you more or less
waste
energy if you are forced to dodge while Revealed. But that's what most people who just qq don't understand.

I agree that Silent Scope is not the
most broken
mechanic in the game. It is however a mechanic I think most of us can give good commentary/criticism on since I'm assuming the lot of us in this thread are Thief mains.

Stealth is definitely a defensive mechanic as well as an offensive mechanic that is crucial for the Deadeye due to how their Malice expenditure works. They do absolutely need that quick and easy access to stealth. This is why I was glad ANet added a stealth to Deadeye stolen skills (they were borderline useless without it). The issue is that in its current form, there is too much reward for very little risk or investment. It's simply a dumb mechanic that is needlessly frustrating to fight against. Nevermind the fact that the Malice stacking you mentioned doesn't seem to affect the Deadeye the way it should because it is very frequent that they completely ignore its purpose and just outright burst the target from stealth.

I'm also of the opinion that Shadow Arts generally needs to be addressed as it is a key player in the "perma-stealth" issue. I've stated in the past that it is a generally unhealthy traitline that rewards passive gameplay (with the exception of Rending Shade) which ANet generally frowns upon, which is why it is so surprising they haven't touched it. It's in a bizarre limbo where it's useless in some settings but frustrating to fight in others. My point here is I agree with you that this is a multi-faceted issue.

SA needs rework, but it's not mandatory for perms stealth.Main problems with deadeye:
  1. High opening burst.
  2. Easy access to stealth.
  3. Crazy amount of stealth.1st and 3rd point are not bad by themselfs. What makes this combo broken is adding these 2 AND also 2nd point - silent scope, that gives deadeye way to easy reset potential. U just swap to rifle, dodge roll once or twice and reset completely. That's unacceptable to leave this as it is cuz it promotes way to low risk, high reward gameplay.

That pretty much sums up the issue here.

SA is still a poorly balanced trait line though.

This sums up nothing. It just is a list that more or less characterize what defines the current meta: a) have good burst and b) bring enough sustain (and mobility for roaming).

Replace 3 by "Crazy amount of sustain" and you basically have characterized what fighting an engineer feels like... Or replace 3 by "Crazy sustain" and add 4 "Easily apply many boons" and you have described Soulbeast... Oh, how about replacing 3 by "Crazy amount of defensive cds" and add 4 "Ridiculous mobility" and you characterized Mesmer? Should I go on?

This list of so-called "main problems" (for Deadeye) is just a list of things you don't like to deal with and hence just cry for nerfs.

Holos and sb have a balance issues, while deadeye and mirage are just trashly designed(or both of this problems).If u tune down the soul beast or holo fighting them won't be a big problem, while mirage with mirage cloak still will be cancer, and deadeye will still be able to reset in every possible situation, until the mechanics won't be changed.There is a difference between numbers and bad design

And what is the problem if someone resets? You also get out of combat, heal to full hp and your skills come off cd... So no one should really get a huge advantage out of that.

The problem I think they are bringing up as far as reset is that you can make a mistake and not worry about it. Missed a skill? Reset, Got caught and punished? Reset. Someone got the jump on me? Reset.

Issue is if they couldn’t reset no one would play the class. Due to how little damage they can sustain they would have to out play and make zero mistakes every fight to stand a chance at a win in the 1v1 fight.arenet would have to make some changes to make their mistakes a little more forgiving

Yea but DE shouldn't be 1v1ing regardless vs taking out a target quickly. IMHO. I look at pvp differently if I make a mistake I expect to get punished not just reset when I want to if I mess up etc. If a player capitalizes on my misplay then they are the better player. But isn't that how it should be? The player that makes the least mistakes should win. That goes for any game. RTS, FPS, Fighting etc.

I've seen RTS players have flawless opening sequences and still get rushed and rolled up anyway. Thieves do get punished for their mistakes, it's why they stealth or reset, because they can't take as much punishment.

Yea but allowing them to reset promotes bad play. Maybe if you are S/D you do, maybe even D/P, but DE is a whole different level.

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syszery.1592

syszery.1592

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@omgdracula.6345 said:

@omgdracula.6345 said:People in here really trying to defend stealth on dodge?
That is the single most broken mechanic I have seen.
You are literally defending something that has no cooldown other than your stamina limitation that gives extreme benefits to the user. Hell it doesn't even have an ICD.

Ok, you must be pretty new to this game, right? a) Stamina is a real restriction and b) Mirage Cloak (1s dodge + can be used while stunned), Soulbeast boon stacking (in particular the damage+sustain resulting from this), Rampage and Holosmith are all perfectly balanced, right?

Yes, Endurance is a restriction. But when you have 3-4 seconds of stealth per dodge to stall the fight, with plenty of ways to increase the flow of Endurance, one has to ask how restrictive it actually is when implemented in this way.

I also find it interesting that you point out that Endurance has restrictions, just to use Mirage Cloak as a counter-example to back up your point when it is also limited to Endurance. Is Mirage Cloak too strong in its current implementation or not? I can imagine you might be equally annoyed by someone arguing "Well, it's limited to Endurance so it's balanced" in order to defend it. Keep in mind, I am fully aware of how frustrating it is to fight a Mirage as any class besides a Thief.

But I digress. Your counter-argument seems to be "These classes over here are equally if not more unbalanced." Perhaps you are correct, but it is irrelevant to this discussion. Each of the classes mentioned have their own threads/discussions on what to do with them.

I didn't mean to give counter examples. I was just referring to the claim that Silent Scope would be
"the single most broken mechanic"
in the game. That's why I mentioned e.g. Mirage Cloak which is in my opinion at least as strong as Stealth on Dodge. But I agree that mentioning Souldbeast and Holosmith is problematic, because it's not one mechanic that makes them so good atm but several skills that functions very well together.

The problem is that Deadeye was just redesigned to function like this: Stack Malice and then execute a stealth attack for a major advantage. But how should this work if you have no good access to stealth? Like e.g. on Shortbow and Sword/Pistol? So just removing the stealth trait would basically make Rifle no longer really fitting the design (yes, you can use Kneel + Sniper's Cover + Free Action + Death's Retreat but that's ridiculous and you would die trying this against any competent opponent...) which would also be stupid because it's
the
Weapon for Deadeyes...

Also, stealth is the only real defensive mechanic in nearly any Deadeye build. I mean (in WvW at least) you can run Acrobatics over Deadly Arts or Critical Strikes but this will significantly lower your damage (which is what many people want, lowering the burst) and one basically only does this to get more frequent use of Silent Scope anyway. And besides this option there is nothing left: No Rifle-skill has a build-in evade (like S/D), block or any kind of damage mitigation. You don't even have an interrupt, an unblockable attack or a reliable blind...

To sum it up: Most people believe that bringing back the old Silent Scope would fix the problem with high stealth uptime. But it is simple not true... Even before the redesign it was possible to have this amount of stealth. It was basically just better because you had stealth + dodge whenever you need it (at the cost of fluent gameplay)... Now you more or less
waste
energy if you are forced to dodge while Revealed. But that's what most people who just qq don't understand.

I agree that Silent Scope is not the
most broken
mechanic in the game. It is however a mechanic I think most of us can give good commentary/criticism on since I'm assuming the lot of us in this thread are Thief mains.

Stealth is definitely a defensive mechanic as well as an offensive mechanic that is crucial for the Deadeye due to how their Malice expenditure works. They do absolutely need that quick and easy access to stealth. This is why I was glad ANet added a stealth to Deadeye stolen skills (they were borderline useless without it). The issue is that in its current form, there is too much reward for very little risk or investment. It's simply a dumb mechanic that is needlessly frustrating to fight against. Nevermind the fact that the Malice stacking you mentioned doesn't seem to affect the Deadeye the way it should because it is very frequent that they completely ignore its purpose and just outright burst the target from stealth.

I'm also of the opinion that Shadow Arts generally needs to be addressed as it is a key player in the "perma-stealth" issue. I've stated in the past that it is a generally unhealthy traitline that rewards passive gameplay (with the exception of Rending Shade) which ANet generally frowns upon, which is why it is so surprising they haven't touched it. It's in a bizarre limbo where it's useless in some settings but frustrating to fight in others. My point here is I agree with you that this is a multi-faceted issue.

SA needs rework, but it's not mandatory for perms stealth.Main problems with deadeye:
  1. High opening burst.
  2. Easy access to stealth.
  3. Crazy amount of stealth.1st and 3rd point are not bad by themselfs. What makes this combo broken is adding these 2 AND also 2nd point - silent scope, that gives deadeye way to easy reset potential. U just swap to rifle, dodge roll once or twice and reset completely. That's unacceptable to leave this as it is cuz it promotes way to low risk, high reward gameplay.

That pretty much sums up the issue here.

SA is still a poorly balanced trait line though.

This sums up nothing. It just is a list that more or less characterize what defines the current meta: a) have good burst and b) bring enough sustain (and mobility for roaming).

Replace 3 by "Crazy amount of sustain" and you basically have characterized what fighting an engineer feels like... Or replace 3 by "Crazy sustain" and add 4 "Easily apply many boons" and you have described Soulbeast... Oh, how about replacing 3 by "Crazy amount of defensive cds" and add 4 "Ridiculous mobility" and you characterized Mesmer? Should I go on?

This list of so-called "main problems" (for Deadeye) is just a list of things you don't like to deal with and hence just cry for nerfs.

Holos and sb have a balance issues, while deadeye and mirage are just trashly designed(or both of this problems).If u tune down the soul beast or holo fighting them won't be a big problem, while mirage with mirage cloak still will be cancer, and deadeye will still be able to reset in every possible situation, until the mechanics won't be changed.There is a difference between numbers and bad design

And what is the problem if someone resets? You also get out of combat, heal to full hp and your skills come off cd... So no one should really get a huge advantage out of that.

The problem I think they are bringing up as far as reset is that you can make a mistake and not worry about it. Missed a skill? Reset, Got caught and punished? Reset. Someone got the jump on me? Reset.

Issue is if they couldn’t reset no one would play the class. Due to how little damage they can sustain they would have to out play and make zero mistakes every fight to stand a chance at a win in the 1v1 fight.arenet would have to make some changes to make their mistakes a little more forgiving

Yea but DE shouldn't be 1v1ing regardless vs taking out a target quickly. IMHO. I look at pvp differently if I make a mistake I expect to get punished not just reset when I want to if I mess up etc. If a player capitalizes on my misplay then they are the better player. But isn't that how it should be? The player that makes the least mistakes should win. That goes for any game. RTS, FPS, Fighting etc.

I've seen RTS players have flawless opening sequences and still get rushed and rolled up anyway. Thieves do get punished for their mistakes, it's why they stealth or reset, because they can't take as much punishment.

Yea but allowing them to reset promotes bad play. Maybe if you are S/D you do, maybe even D/P, but DE is a whole different level.

Eh, and it is ok if you die (as Deadeye) even after a "flawless opening sequences" just because your targets have enough (passive) sustain to basically ignore your damage and their counter burst would completely destroy you if you could not stealth? That's gr8 m8, right :trollface:

Edit: And why is is ok if D/P or S/D resets but not if Deadeyes do? /confused ...

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Safandula.8723

Safandula.8723

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@syszery.1592 said:

@omgdracula.6345 said:People in here really trying to defend stealth on dodge?
That is the single most broken mechanic I have seen.
You are literally defending something that has no cooldown other than your stamina limitation that gives extreme benefits to the user. Hell it doesn't even have an ICD.

Ok, you must be pretty new to this game, right? a) Stamina is a real restriction and b) Mirage Cloak (1s dodge + can be used while stunned), Soulbeast boon stacking (in particular the damage+sustain resulting from this), Rampage and Holosmith are all perfectly balanced, right?

Yes, Endurance is a restriction. But when you have 3-4 seconds of stealth per dodge to stall the fight, with plenty of ways to increase the flow of Endurance, one has to ask how restrictive it actually is when implemented in this way.

I also find it interesting that you point out that Endurance has restrictions, just to use Mirage Cloak as a counter-example to back up your point when it is also limited to Endurance. Is Mirage Cloak too strong in its current implementation or not? I can imagine you might be equally annoyed by someone arguing "Well, it's limited to Endurance so it's balanced" in order to defend it. Keep in mind, I am fully aware of how frustrating it is to fight a Mirage as any class besides a Thief.

But I digress. Your counter-argument seems to be "These classes over here are equally if not more unbalanced." Perhaps you are correct, but it is irrelevant to this discussion. Each of the classes mentioned have their own threads/discussions on what to do with them.

I didn't mean to give counter examples. I was just referring to the claim that Silent Scope would be
"the single most broken mechanic"
in the game. That's why I mentioned e.g. Mirage Cloak which is in my opinion at least as strong as Stealth on Dodge. But I agree that mentioning Souldbeast and Holosmith is problematic, because it's not one mechanic that makes them so good atm but several skills that functions very well together.

The problem is that Deadeye was just redesigned to function like this: Stack Malice and then execute a stealth attack for a major advantage. But how should this work if you have no good access to stealth? Like e.g. on Shortbow and Sword/Pistol? So just removing the stealth trait would basically make Rifle no longer really fitting the design (yes, you can use Kneel + Sniper's Cover + Free Action + Death's Retreat but that's ridiculous and you would die trying this against any competent opponent...) which would also be stupid because it's
the
Weapon for Deadeyes...

Also, stealth is the only real defensive mechanic in nearly any Deadeye build. I mean (in WvW at least) you can run Acrobatics over Deadly Arts or Critical Strikes but this will significantly lower your damage (which is what many people want, lowering the burst) and one basically only does this to get more frequent use of Silent Scope anyway. And besides this option there is nothing left: No Rifle-skill has a build-in evade (like S/D), block or any kind of damage mitigation. You don't even have an interrupt, an unblockable attack or a reliable blind...

To sum it up: Most people believe that bringing back the old Silent Scope would fix the problem with high stealth uptime. But it is simple not true... Even before the redesign it was possible to have this amount of stealth. It was basically just better because you had stealth + dodge whenever you need it (at the cost of fluent gameplay)... Now you more or less
waste
energy if you are forced to dodge while Revealed. But that's what most people who just qq don't understand.

I agree that Silent Scope is not the
most broken
mechanic in the game. It is however a mechanic I think most of us can give good commentary/criticism on since I'm assuming the lot of us in this thread are Thief mains.

Stealth is definitely a defensive mechanic as well as an offensive mechanic that is crucial for the Deadeye due to how their Malice expenditure works. They do absolutely need that quick and easy access to stealth. This is why I was glad ANet added a stealth to Deadeye stolen skills (they were borderline useless without it). The issue is that in its current form, there is too much reward for very little risk or investment. It's simply a dumb mechanic that is needlessly frustrating to fight against. Nevermind the fact that the Malice stacking you mentioned doesn't seem to affect the Deadeye the way it should because it is very frequent that they completely ignore its purpose and just outright burst the target from stealth.

I'm also of the opinion that Shadow Arts generally needs to be addressed as it is a key player in the "perma-stealth" issue. I've stated in the past that it is a generally unhealthy traitline that rewards passive gameplay (with the exception of Rending Shade) which ANet generally frowns upon, which is why it is so surprising they haven't touched it. It's in a bizarre limbo where it's useless in some settings but frustrating to fight in others. My point here is I agree with you that this is a multi-faceted issue.

SA needs rework, but it's not mandatory for perms stealth.Main problems with deadeye:
  1. High opening burst.
  2. Easy access to stealth.
  3. Crazy amount of stealth.1st and 3rd point are not bad by themselfs. What makes this combo broken is adding these 2 AND also 2nd point - silent scope, that gives deadeye way to easy reset potential. U just swap to rifle, dodge roll once or twice and reset completely. That's unacceptable to leave this as it is cuz it promotes way to low risk, high reward gameplay.

That pretty much sums up the issue here.

SA is still a poorly balanced trait line though.

This sums up nothing. It just is a list that more or less characterize what defines the current meta: a) have good burst and b) bring enough sustain (and mobility for roaming).

Replace 3 by "Crazy amount of sustain" and you basically have characterized what fighting an engineer feels like... Or replace 3 by "Crazy sustain" and add 4 "Easily apply many boons" and you have described Soulbeast... Oh, how about replacing 3 by "Crazy amount of defensive cds" and add 4 "Ridiculous mobility" and you characterized Mesmer? Should I go on?

This list of so-called "main problems" (for Deadeye) is just a list of things you don't like to deal with and hence just cry for nerfs.

Holos and sb have a balance issues, while deadeye and mirage are just trashly designed(or both of this problems).If u tune down the soul beast or holo fighting them won't be a big problem, while mirage with mirage cloak still will be cancer, and deadeye will still be able to reset in every possible situation, until the mechanics won't be changed.There is a difference between numbers and bad design

And what is the problem if someone resets? You also get out of combat, heal to full hp and your skills come off cd... So no one should really get a huge advantage out of that.

The problem I think they are bringing up as far as reset is that you can make a mistake and not worry about it. Missed a skill? Reset, Got caught and punished? Reset. Someone got the jump on me? Reset.

Issue is if they couldn’t reset no one would play the class. Due to how little damage they can sustain they would have to out play and make zero mistakes every fight to stand a chance at a win in the 1v1 fight.arenet would have to make some changes to make their mistakes a little more forgiving

Yea but DE shouldn't be 1v1ing regardless vs taking out a target quickly. IMHO. I look at pvp differently if I make a mistake I expect to get punished not just reset when I want to if I mess up etc. If a player capitalizes on my misplay then they are the better player. But isn't that how it should be? The player that makes the least mistakes should win. That goes for any game. RTS, FPS, Fighting etc.

I've seen RTS players have flawless opening sequences and still get rushed and rolled up anyway. Thieves do get punished for their mistakes, it's why they stealth or reset, because they can't take as much punishment.

Yea but allowing them to reset promotes bad play. Maybe if you are S/D you do, maybe even D/P, but DE is a whole different level.

Eh, and it is ok if you die (as Deadeye) even after a "flawless opening sequences" just because your targets have enough (passive) sustain to basically ignore your damage and their counter burst would completely destroy you if you could not stealth? That's gr8 m8, right :trollface:

Edit: And why is is ok if D/P or S/D resets but not if Deadeyes do? /confused ...

If s/d resets u know where he is, u can follow him, DE reseting is as previous guy told completely different lvl, based on how stealth works in this game.U try to compare spikes of d/p with his reset potential to the same of DE. Ur not legit

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syszery.1592

syszery.1592

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@Safandula.8723 said:

@omgdracula.6345 said:People in here really trying to defend stealth on dodge?
That is the single most broken mechanic I have seen.
You are literally defending something that has no cooldown other than your stamina limitation that gives extreme benefits to the user. Hell it doesn't even have an ICD.

Ok, you must be pretty new to this game, right? a) Stamina is a real restriction and b) Mirage Cloak (1s dodge + can be used while stunned), Soulbeast boon stacking (in particular the damage+sustain resulting from this), Rampage and Holosmith are all perfectly balanced, right?

Yes, Endurance is a restriction. But when you have 3-4 seconds of stealth per dodge to stall the fight, with plenty of ways to increase the flow of Endurance, one has to ask how restrictive it actually is when implemented in this way.

I also find it interesting that you point out that Endurance has restrictions, just to use Mirage Cloak as a counter-example to back up your point when it is also limited to Endurance. Is Mirage Cloak too strong in its current implementation or not? I can imagine you might be equally annoyed by someone arguing "Well, it's limited to Endurance so it's balanced" in order to defend it. Keep in mind, I am fully aware of how frustrating it is to fight a Mirage as any class besides a Thief.

But I digress. Your counter-argument seems to be "These classes over here are equally if not more unbalanced." Perhaps you are correct, but it is irrelevant to this discussion. Each of the classes mentioned have their own threads/discussions on what to do with them.

I didn't mean to give counter examples. I was just referring to the claim that Silent Scope would be
"the single most broken mechanic"
in the game. That's why I mentioned e.g. Mirage Cloak which is in my opinion at least as strong as Stealth on Dodge. But I agree that mentioning Souldbeast and Holosmith is problematic, because it's not one mechanic that makes them so good atm but several skills that functions very well together.

The problem is that Deadeye was just redesigned to function like this: Stack Malice and then execute a stealth attack for a major advantage. But how should this work if you have no good access to stealth? Like e.g. on Shortbow and Sword/Pistol? So just removing the stealth trait would basically make Rifle no longer really fitting the design (yes, you can use Kneel + Sniper's Cover + Free Action + Death's Retreat but that's ridiculous and you would die trying this against any competent opponent...) which would also be stupid because it's
the
Weapon for Deadeyes...

Also, stealth is the only real defensive mechanic in nearly any Deadeye build. I mean (in WvW at least) you can run Acrobatics over Deadly Arts or Critical Strikes but this will significantly lower your damage (which is what many people want, lowering the burst) and one basically only does this to get more frequent use of Silent Scope anyway. And besides this option there is nothing left: No Rifle-skill has a build-in evade (like S/D), block or any kind of damage mitigation. You don't even have an interrupt, an unblockable attack or a reliable blind...

To sum it up: Most people believe that bringing back the old Silent Scope would fix the problem with high stealth uptime. But it is simple not true... Even before the redesign it was possible to have this amount of stealth. It was basically just better because you had stealth + dodge whenever you need it (at the cost of fluent gameplay)... Now you more or less
waste
energy if you are forced to dodge while Revealed. But that's what most people who just qq don't understand.

I agree that Silent Scope is not the
most broken
mechanic in the game. It is however a mechanic I think most of us can give good commentary/criticism on since I'm assuming the lot of us in this thread are Thief mains.

Stealth is definitely a defensive mechanic as well as an offensive mechanic that is crucial for the Deadeye due to how their Malice expenditure works. They do absolutely need that quick and easy access to stealth. This is why I was glad ANet added a stealth to Deadeye stolen skills (they were borderline useless without it). The issue is that in its current form, there is too much reward for very little risk or investment. It's simply a dumb mechanic that is needlessly frustrating to fight against. Nevermind the fact that the Malice stacking you mentioned doesn't seem to affect the Deadeye the way it should because it is very frequent that they completely ignore its purpose and just outright burst the target from stealth.

I'm also of the opinion that Shadow Arts generally needs to be addressed as it is a key player in the "perma-stealth" issue. I've stated in the past that it is a generally unhealthy traitline that rewards passive gameplay (with the exception of Rending Shade) which ANet generally frowns upon, which is why it is so surprising they haven't touched it. It's in a bizarre limbo where it's useless in some settings but frustrating to fight in others. My point here is I agree with you that this is a multi-faceted issue.

SA needs rework, but it's not mandatory for perms stealth.Main problems with deadeye:
  1. High opening burst.
  2. Easy access to stealth.
  3. Crazy amount of stealth.1st and 3rd point are not bad by themselfs. What makes this combo broken is adding these 2 AND also 2nd point - silent scope, that gives deadeye way to easy reset potential. U just swap to rifle, dodge roll once or twice and reset completely. That's unacceptable to leave this as it is cuz it promotes way to low risk, high reward gameplay.

That pretty much sums up the issue here.

SA is still a poorly balanced trait line though.

This sums up nothing. It just is a list that more or less characterize what defines the current meta: a) have good burst and b) bring enough sustain (and mobility for roaming).

Replace 3 by "Crazy amount of sustain" and you basically have characterized what fighting an engineer feels like... Or replace 3 by "Crazy sustain" and add 4 "Easily apply many boons" and you have described Soulbeast... Oh, how about replacing 3 by "Crazy amount of defensive cds" and add 4 "Ridiculous mobility" and you characterized Mesmer? Should I go on?

This list of so-called "main problems" (for Deadeye) is just a list of things you don't like to deal with and hence just cry for nerfs.

Holos and sb have a balance issues, while deadeye and mirage are just trashly designed(or both of this problems).If u tune down the soul beast or holo fighting them won't be a big problem, while mirage with mirage cloak still will be cancer, and deadeye will still be able to reset in every possible situation, until the mechanics won't be changed.There is a difference between numbers and bad design

And what is the problem if someone resets? You also get out of combat, heal to full hp and your skills come off cd... So no one should really get a huge advantage out of that.

The problem I think they are bringing up as far as reset is that you can make a mistake and not worry about it. Missed a skill? Reset, Got caught and punished? Reset. Someone got the jump on me? Reset.

Issue is if they couldn’t reset no one would play the class. Due to how little damage they can sustain they would have to out play and make zero mistakes every fight to stand a chance at a win in the 1v1 fight.arenet would have to make some changes to make their mistakes a little more forgiving

Yea but DE shouldn't be 1v1ing regardless vs taking out a target quickly. IMHO. I look at pvp differently if I make a mistake I expect to get punished not just reset when I want to if I mess up etc. If a player capitalizes on my misplay then they are the better player. But isn't that how it should be? The player that makes the least mistakes should win. That goes for any game. RTS, FPS, Fighting etc.

I've seen RTS players have flawless opening sequences and still get rushed and rolled up anyway. Thieves do get punished for their mistakes, it's why they stealth or reset, because they can't take as much punishment.

Yea but allowing them to reset promotes bad play. Maybe if you are S/D you do, maybe even D/P, but DE is a whole different level.

Eh, and it is ok if you die (as Deadeye) even after a "flawless opening sequences" just because your targets have enough (passive) sustain to basically ignore your damage and their counter burst would completely destroy you if you could not stealth? That's gr8 m8, right :trollface:

Edit: And why is is ok if D/P or S/D resets but not if Deadeyes do? /confused ...

If s/d resets u know where he is, u can follow him, DE reseting is as previous guy told completely different lvl, based on how stealth works in this game.U try to compare spikes of d/p with his reset potential to the same of DE. Ur not legit

If S/D resets, he resets. How can a reset be different from a reset? Besides that S/D builds (or Daredevil) have other advantages over Deadeye...

Can you please read my post again? I did not compare the damage of thief builds at all...

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Jugglemonkey.8741

Jugglemonkey.8741

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@Safandula.8723 said:

@omgdracula.6345 said:People in here really trying to defend stealth on dodge?
That is the single most broken mechanic I have seen.
You are literally defending something that has no cooldown other than your stamina limitation that gives extreme benefits to the user. Hell it doesn't even have an ICD.

Ok, you must be pretty new to this game, right? a) Stamina is a real restriction and b) Mirage Cloak (1s dodge + can be used while stunned), Soulbeast boon stacking (in particular the damage+sustain resulting from this), Rampage and Holosmith are all perfectly balanced, right?

Yes, Endurance is a restriction. But when you have 3-4 seconds of stealth per dodge to stall the fight, with plenty of ways to increase the flow of Endurance, one has to ask how restrictive it actually is when implemented in this way.

I also find it interesting that you point out that Endurance has restrictions, just to use Mirage Cloak as a counter-example to back up your point when it is also limited to Endurance. Is Mirage Cloak too strong in its current implementation or not? I can imagine you might be equally annoyed by someone arguing "Well, it's limited to Endurance so it's balanced" in order to defend it. Keep in mind, I am fully aware of how frustrating it is to fight a Mirage as any class besides a Thief.

But I digress. Your counter-argument seems to be "These classes over here are equally if not more unbalanced." Perhaps you are correct, but it is irrelevant to this discussion. Each of the classes mentioned have their own threads/discussions on what to do with them.

I didn't mean to give counter examples. I was just referring to the claim that Silent Scope would be
"the single most broken mechanic"
in the game. That's why I mentioned e.g. Mirage Cloak which is in my opinion at least as strong as Stealth on Dodge. But I agree that mentioning Souldbeast and Holosmith is problematic, because it's not one mechanic that makes them so good atm but several skills that functions very well together.

The problem is that Deadeye was just redesigned to function like this: Stack Malice and then execute a stealth attack for a major advantage. But how should this work if you have no good access to stealth? Like e.g. on Shortbow and Sword/Pistol? So just removing the stealth trait would basically make Rifle no longer really fitting the design (yes, you can use Kneel + Sniper's Cover + Free Action + Death's Retreat but that's ridiculous and you would die trying this against any competent opponent...) which would also be stupid because it's
the
Weapon for Deadeyes...

Also, stealth is the only real defensive mechanic in nearly any Deadeye build. I mean (in WvW at least) you can run Acrobatics over Deadly Arts or Critical Strikes but this will significantly lower your damage (which is what many people want, lowering the burst) and one basically only does this to get more frequent use of Silent Scope anyway. And besides this option there is nothing left: No Rifle-skill has a build-in evade (like S/D), block or any kind of damage mitigation. You don't even have an interrupt, an unblockable attack or a reliable blind...

To sum it up: Most people believe that bringing back the old Silent Scope would fix the problem with high stealth uptime. But it is simple not true... Even before the redesign it was possible to have this amount of stealth. It was basically just better because you had stealth + dodge whenever you need it (at the cost of fluent gameplay)... Now you more or less
waste
energy if you are forced to dodge while Revealed. But that's what most people who just qq don't understand.

I agree that Silent Scope is not the
most broken
mechanic in the game. It is however a mechanic I think most of us can give good commentary/criticism on since I'm assuming the lot of us in this thread are Thief mains.

Stealth is definitely a defensive mechanic as well as an offensive mechanic that is crucial for the Deadeye due to how their Malice expenditure works. They do absolutely need that quick and easy access to stealth. This is why I was glad ANet added a stealth to Deadeye stolen skills (they were borderline useless without it). The issue is that in its current form, there is too much reward for very little risk or investment. It's simply a dumb mechanic that is needlessly frustrating to fight against. Nevermind the fact that the Malice stacking you mentioned doesn't seem to affect the Deadeye the way it should because it is very frequent that they completely ignore its purpose and just outright burst the target from stealth.

I'm also of the opinion that Shadow Arts generally needs to be addressed as it is a key player in the "perma-stealth" issue. I've stated in the past that it is a generally unhealthy traitline that rewards passive gameplay (with the exception of Rending Shade) which ANet generally frowns upon, which is why it is so surprising they haven't touched it. It's in a bizarre limbo where it's useless in some settings but frustrating to fight in others. My point here is I agree with you that this is a multi-faceted issue.

SA needs rework, but it's not mandatory for perms stealth.Main problems with deadeye:
  1. High opening burst.
  2. Easy access to stealth.
  3. Crazy amount of stealth.1st and 3rd point are not bad by themselfs. What makes this combo broken is adding these 2 AND also 2nd point - silent scope, that gives deadeye way to easy reset potential. U just swap to rifle, dodge roll once or twice and reset completely. That's unacceptable to leave this as it is cuz it promotes way to low risk, high reward gameplay.

That pretty much sums up the issue here.

SA is still a poorly balanced trait line though.

This sums up nothing. It just is a list that more or less characterize what defines the current meta: a) have good burst and b) bring enough sustain (and mobility for roaming).

Replace 3 by "Crazy amount of sustain" and you basically have characterized what fighting an engineer feels like... Or replace 3 by "Crazy sustain" and add 4 "Easily apply many boons" and you have described Soulbeast... Oh, how about replacing 3 by "Crazy amount of defensive cds" and add 4 "Ridiculous mobility" and you characterized Mesmer? Should I go on?

This list of so-called "main problems" (for Deadeye) is just a list of things you don't like to deal with and hence just cry for nerfs.

Holos and sb have a balance issues, while deadeye and mirage are just trashly designed(or both of this problems).If u tune down the soul beast or holo fighting them won't be a big problem, while mirage with mirage cloak still will be cancer, and deadeye will still be able to reset in every possible situation, until the mechanics won't be changed.There is a difference between numbers and bad design

And what is the problem if someone resets? You also get out of combat, heal to full hp and your skills come off cd... So no one should really get a huge advantage out of that.

The problem I think they are bringing up as far as reset is that you can make a mistake and not worry about it. Missed a skill? Reset, Got caught and punished? Reset. Someone got the jump on me? Reset.

Issue is if they couldn’t reset no one would play the class. Due to how little damage they can sustain they would have to out play and make zero mistakes every fight to stand a chance at a win in the 1v1 fight.arenet would have to make some changes to make their mistakes a little more forgiving

Yea but DE shouldn't be 1v1ing regardless vs taking out a target quickly. IMHO. I look at pvp differently if I make a mistake I expect to get punished not just reset when I want to if I mess up etc. If a player capitalizes on my misplay then they are the better player. But isn't that how it should be? The player that makes the least mistakes should win. That goes for any game. RTS, FPS, Fighting etc.

I've seen RTS players have flawless opening sequences and still get rushed and rolled up anyway. Thieves do get punished for their mistakes, it's why they stealth or reset, because they can't take as much punishment.

Yea but allowing them to reset promotes bad play. Maybe if you are S/D you do, maybe even D/P, but DE is a whole different level.

Eh, and it is ok if you die (as Deadeye) even after a "flawless opening sequences" just because your targets have enough (passive) sustain to basically ignore your damage and their counter burst would completely destroy you if you could not stealth? That's gr8 m8, right :trollface:

Edit: And why is is ok if D/P or S/D resets but not if Deadeyes do? /confused ...

If s/d resets u know where he is, u can follow him, DE reseting is as previous guy told completely different lvl, based on how stealth works in this game.U try to compare spikes of d/p with his reset potential to the same of DE. Ur not legit

You do realise most of the hate towards DE is generated by most DE running D/P on off set for the stealth, right? Even if you remove the stealth on dodge, between stealth on stolen skills, D/P and blinding powder, the one shot stealth gameplay would still be a thing. On the other hand, a DE not running D/P loses permastealth and loses the ability to easily kill glassy opponents with virtually no tell. So why is it OK for D/P to reset like it does, given it's a major cause of why DE gets so much hate?

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Jugglemonkey.8741

Jugglemonkey.8741

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That all said, thief won't lose stealth nor will it get more in combat utility to compensate because all of the suggestions that went in that direction from the dev run discussions on the old forums were funneled towards revenant development in the end. So people might as well get used to the idea of thief staying as it is.

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Safandula.8723

Safandula.8723

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@syszery.1592 said:

@omgdracula.6345 said:People in here really trying to defend stealth on dodge?
That is the single most broken mechanic I have seen.
You are literally defending something that has no cooldown other than your stamina limitation that gives extreme benefits to the user. Hell it doesn't even have an ICD.

Ok, you must be pretty new to this game, right? a) Stamina is a real restriction and b) Mirage Cloak (1s dodge + can be used while stunned), Soulbeast boon stacking (in particular the damage+sustain resulting from this), Rampage and Holosmith are all perfectly balanced, right?

Yes, Endurance is a restriction. But when you have 3-4 seconds of stealth per dodge to stall the fight, with plenty of ways to increase the flow of Endurance, one has to ask how restrictive it actually is when implemented in this way.

I also find it interesting that you point out that Endurance has restrictions, just to use Mirage Cloak as a counter-example to back up your point when it is also limited to Endurance. Is Mirage Cloak too strong in its current implementation or not? I can imagine you might be equally annoyed by someone arguing "Well, it's limited to Endurance so it's balanced" in order to defend it. Keep in mind, I am fully aware of how frustrating it is to fight a Mirage as any class besides a Thief.

But I digress. Your counter-argument seems to be "These classes over here are equally if not more unbalanced." Perhaps you are correct, but it is irrelevant to this discussion. Each of the classes mentioned have their own threads/discussions on what to do with them.

I didn't mean to give counter examples. I was just referring to the claim that Silent Scope would be
"the single most broken mechanic"
in the game. That's why I mentioned e.g. Mirage Cloak which is in my opinion at least as strong as Stealth on Dodge. But I agree that mentioning Souldbeast and Holosmith is problematic, because it's not one mechanic that makes them so good atm but several skills that functions very well together.

The problem is that Deadeye was just redesigned to function like this: Stack Malice and then execute a stealth attack for a major advantage. But how should this work if you have no good access to stealth? Like e.g. on Shortbow and Sword/Pistol? So just removing the stealth trait would basically make Rifle no longer really fitting the design (yes, you can use Kneel + Sniper's Cover + Free Action + Death's Retreat but that's ridiculous and you would die trying this against any competent opponent...) which would also be stupid because it's
the
Weapon for Deadeyes...

Also, stealth is the only real defensive mechanic in nearly any Deadeye build. I mean (in WvW at least) you can run Acrobatics over Deadly Arts or Critical Strikes but this will significantly lower your damage (which is what many people want, lowering the burst) and one basically only does this to get more frequent use of Silent Scope anyway. And besides this option there is nothing left: No Rifle-skill has a build-in evade (like S/D), block or any kind of damage mitigation. You don't even have an interrupt, an unblockable attack or a reliable blind...

To sum it up: Most people believe that bringing back the old Silent Scope would fix the problem with high stealth uptime. But it is simple not true... Even before the redesign it was possible to have this amount of stealth. It was basically just better because you had stealth + dodge whenever you need it (at the cost of fluent gameplay)... Now you more or less
waste
energy if you are forced to dodge while Revealed. But that's what most people who just qq don't understand.

I agree that Silent Scope is not the
most broken
mechanic in the game. It is however a mechanic I think most of us can give good commentary/criticism on since I'm assuming the lot of us in this thread are Thief mains.

Stealth is definitely a defensive mechanic as well as an offensive mechanic that is crucial for the Deadeye due to how their Malice expenditure works. They do absolutely need that quick and easy access to stealth. This is why I was glad ANet added a stealth to Deadeye stolen skills (they were borderline useless without it). The issue is that in its current form, there is too much reward for very little risk or investment. It's simply a dumb mechanic that is needlessly frustrating to fight against. Nevermind the fact that the Malice stacking you mentioned doesn't seem to affect the Deadeye the way it should because it is very frequent that they completely ignore its purpose and just outright burst the target from stealth.

I'm also of the opinion that Shadow Arts generally needs to be addressed as it is a key player in the "perma-stealth" issue. I've stated in the past that it is a generally unhealthy traitline that rewards passive gameplay (with the exception of Rending Shade) which ANet generally frowns upon, which is why it is so surprising they haven't touched it. It's in a bizarre limbo where it's useless in some settings but frustrating to fight in others. My point here is I agree with you that this is a multi-faceted issue.

SA needs rework, but it's not mandatory for perms stealth.Main problems with deadeye:
  1. High opening burst.
  2. Easy access to stealth.
  3. Crazy amount of stealth.1st and 3rd point are not bad by themselfs. What makes this combo broken is adding these 2 AND also 2nd point - silent scope, that gives deadeye way to easy reset potential. U just swap to rifle, dodge roll once or twice and reset completely. That's unacceptable to leave this as it is cuz it promotes way to low risk, high reward gameplay.

That pretty much sums up the issue here.

SA is still a poorly balanced trait line though.

This sums up nothing. It just is a list that more or less characterize what defines the current meta: a) have good burst and b) bring enough sustain (and mobility for roaming).

Replace 3 by "Crazy amount of sustain" and you basically have characterized what fighting an engineer feels like... Or replace 3 by "Crazy sustain" and add 4 "Easily apply many boons" and you have described Soulbeast... Oh, how about replacing 3 by "Crazy amount of defensive cds" and add 4 "Ridiculous mobility" and you characterized Mesmer? Should I go on?

This list of so-called "main problems" (for Deadeye) is just a list of things you don't like to deal with and hence just cry for nerfs.

Holos and sb have a balance issues, while deadeye and mirage are just trashly designed(or both of this problems).If u tune down the soul beast or holo fighting them won't be a big problem, while mirage with mirage cloak still will be cancer, and deadeye will still be able to reset in every possible situation, until the mechanics won't be changed.There is a difference between numbers and bad design

And what is the problem if someone resets? You also get out of combat, heal to full hp and your skills come off cd... So no one should really get a huge advantage out of that.

The problem I think they are bringing up as far as reset is that you can make a mistake and not worry about it. Missed a skill? Reset, Got caught and punished? Reset. Someone got the jump on me? Reset.

Issue is if they couldn’t reset no one would play the class. Due to how little damage they can sustain they would have to out play and make zero mistakes every fight to stand a chance at a win in the 1v1 fight.arenet would have to make some changes to make their mistakes a little more forgiving

Yea but DE shouldn't be 1v1ing regardless vs taking out a target quickly. IMHO. I look at pvp differently if I make a mistake I expect to get punished not just reset when I want to if I mess up etc. If a player capitalizes on my misplay then they are the better player. But isn't that how it should be? The player that makes the least mistakes should win. That goes for any game. RTS, FPS, Fighting etc.

I've seen RTS players have flawless opening sequences and still get rushed and rolled up anyway. Thieves do get punished for their mistakes, it's why they stealth or reset, because they can't take as much punishment.

Yea but allowing them to reset promotes bad play. Maybe if you are S/D you do, maybe even D/P, but DE is a whole different level.

Eh, and it is ok if you die (as Deadeye) even after a "flawless opening sequences" just because your targets have enough (passive) sustain to basically ignore your damage and their counter burst would completely destroy you if you could not stealth? That's gr8 m8, right :trollface:

Edit: And why is is ok if D/P or S/D resets but not if Deadeyes do? /confused ...

If s/d resets u know where he is, u can follow him, DE reseting is as previous guy told completely different lvl, based on how stealth works in this game.U try to compare spikes of d/p with his reset potential to the same of DE. Ur not legit

If S/D resets, he resets. How can a reset be different from a reset? Besides that S/D builds (or Daredevil) have other advantages over Deadeye...

Can you please read my post again? I did not compare the damage of thief builds at all...

If apple is an apple than its an apple. Gz.Now try to understand the deadeye problem in higher perspective. As I told, it's a problem of low risk high reward, I'm to tired of telling it all once again.U compared DE to mirage, holo and soul beast. So u know these classes has balance problems. If u know that, than comparing DE to classes with balance issues makes no sense. I'm wasting time here...

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syszery.1592

syszery.1592

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@Safandula.8723 said:

@omgdracula.6345 said:People in here really trying to defend stealth on dodge?
That is the single most broken mechanic I have seen.
You are literally defending something that has no cooldown other than your stamina limitation that gives extreme benefits to the user. Hell it doesn't even have an ICD.

Ok, you must be pretty new to this game, right? a) Stamina is a real restriction and b) Mirage Cloak (1s dodge + can be used while stunned), Soulbeast boon stacking (in particular the damage+sustain resulting from this), Rampage and Holosmith are all perfectly balanced, right?

Yes, Endurance is a restriction. But when you have 3-4 seconds of stealth per dodge to stall the fight, with plenty of ways to increase the flow of Endurance, one has to ask how restrictive it actually is when implemented in this way.

I also find it interesting that you point out that Endurance has restrictions, just to use Mirage Cloak as a counter-example to back up your point when it is also limited to Endurance. Is Mirage Cloak too strong in its current implementation or not? I can imagine you might be equally annoyed by someone arguing "Well, it's limited to Endurance so it's balanced" in order to defend it. Keep in mind, I am fully aware of how frustrating it is to fight a Mirage as any class besides a Thief.

But I digress. Your counter-argument seems to be "These classes over here are equally if not more unbalanced." Perhaps you are correct, but it is irrelevant to this discussion. Each of the classes mentioned have their own threads/discussions on what to do with them.

I didn't mean to give counter examples. I was just referring to the claim that Silent Scope would be
"the single most broken mechanic"
in the game. That's why I mentioned e.g. Mirage Cloak which is in my opinion at least as strong as Stealth on Dodge. But I agree that mentioning Souldbeast and Holosmith is problematic, because it's not one mechanic that makes them so good atm but several skills that functions very well together.

The problem is that Deadeye was just redesigned to function like this: Stack Malice and then execute a stealth attack for a major advantage. But how should this work if you have no good access to stealth? Like e.g. on Shortbow and Sword/Pistol? So just removing the stealth trait would basically make Rifle no longer really fitting the design (yes, you can use Kneel + Sniper's Cover + Free Action + Death's Retreat but that's ridiculous and you would die trying this against any competent opponent...) which would also be stupid because it's
the
Weapon for Deadeyes...

Also, stealth is the only real defensive mechanic in nearly any Deadeye build. I mean (in WvW at least) you can run Acrobatics over Deadly Arts or Critical Strikes but this will significantly lower your damage (which is what many people want, lowering the burst) and one basically only does this to get more frequent use of Silent Scope anyway. And besides this option there is nothing left: No Rifle-skill has a build-in evade (like S/D), block or any kind of damage mitigation. You don't even have an interrupt, an unblockable attack or a reliable blind...

To sum it up: Most people believe that bringing back the old Silent Scope would fix the problem with high stealth uptime. But it is simple not true... Even before the redesign it was possible to have this amount of stealth. It was basically just better because you had stealth + dodge whenever you need it (at the cost of fluent gameplay)... Now you more or less
waste
energy if you are forced to dodge while Revealed. But that's what most people who just qq don't understand.

I agree that Silent Scope is not the
most broken
mechanic in the game. It is however a mechanic I think most of us can give good commentary/criticism on since I'm assuming the lot of us in this thread are Thief mains.

Stealth is definitely a defensive mechanic as well as an offensive mechanic that is crucial for the Deadeye due to how their Malice expenditure works. They do absolutely need that quick and easy access to stealth. This is why I was glad ANet added a stealth to Deadeye stolen skills (they were borderline useless without it). The issue is that in its current form, there is too much reward for very little risk or investment. It's simply a dumb mechanic that is needlessly frustrating to fight against. Nevermind the fact that the Malice stacking you mentioned doesn't seem to affect the Deadeye the way it should because it is very frequent that they completely ignore its purpose and just outright burst the target from stealth.

I'm also of the opinion that Shadow Arts generally needs to be addressed as it is a key player in the "perma-stealth" issue. I've stated in the past that it is a generally unhealthy traitline that rewards passive gameplay (with the exception of Rending Shade) which ANet generally frowns upon, which is why it is so surprising they haven't touched it. It's in a bizarre limbo where it's useless in some settings but frustrating to fight in others. My point here is I agree with you that this is a multi-faceted issue.

SA needs rework, but it's not mandatory for perms stealth.Main problems with deadeye:
  1. High opening burst.
  2. Easy access to stealth.
  3. Crazy amount of stealth.1st and 3rd point are not bad by themselfs. What makes this combo broken is adding these 2 AND also 2nd point - silent scope, that gives deadeye way to easy reset potential. U just swap to rifle, dodge roll once or twice and reset completely. That's unacceptable to leave this as it is cuz it promotes way to low risk, high reward gameplay.

That pretty much sums up the issue here.

SA is still a poorly balanced trait line though.

This sums up nothing. It just is a list that more or less characterize what defines the current meta: a) have good burst and b) bring enough sustain (and mobility for roaming).

Replace 3 by "Crazy amount of sustain" and you basically have characterized what fighting an engineer feels like... Or replace 3 by "Crazy sustain" and add 4 "Easily apply many boons" and you have described Soulbeast... Oh, how about replacing 3 by "Crazy amount of defensive cds" and add 4 "Ridiculous mobility" and you characterized Mesmer? Should I go on?

This list of so-called "main problems" (for Deadeye) is just a list of things you don't like to deal with and hence just cry for nerfs.

Holos and sb have a balance issues, while deadeye and mirage are just trashly designed(or both of this problems).If u tune down the soul beast or holo fighting them won't be a big problem, while mirage with mirage cloak still will be cancer, and deadeye will still be able to reset in every possible situation, until the mechanics won't be changed.There is a difference between numbers and bad design

And what is the problem if someone resets? You also get out of combat, heal to full hp and your skills come off cd... So no one should really get a huge advantage out of that.

The problem I think they are bringing up as far as reset is that you can make a mistake and not worry about it. Missed a skill? Reset, Got caught and punished? Reset. Someone got the jump on me? Reset.

Issue is if they couldn’t reset no one would play the class. Due to how little damage they can sustain they would have to out play and make zero mistakes every fight to stand a chance at a win in the 1v1 fight.arenet would have to make some changes to make their mistakes a little more forgiving

Yea but DE shouldn't be 1v1ing regardless vs taking out a target quickly. IMHO. I look at pvp differently if I make a mistake I expect to get punished not just reset when I want to if I mess up etc. If a player capitalizes on my misplay then they are the better player. But isn't that how it should be? The player that makes the least mistakes should win. That goes for any game. RTS, FPS, Fighting etc.

I've seen RTS players have flawless opening sequences and still get rushed and rolled up anyway. Thieves do get punished for their mistakes, it's why they stealth or reset, because they can't take as much punishment.

Yea but allowing them to reset promotes bad play. Maybe if you are S/D you do, maybe even D/P, but DE is a whole different level.

Eh, and it is ok if you die (as Deadeye) even after a "flawless opening sequences" just because your targets have enough (passive) sustain to basically ignore your damage and their counter burst would completely destroy you if you could not stealth? That's gr8 m8, right :trollface:

Edit: And why is is ok if D/P or S/D resets but not if Deadeyes do? /confused ...

If s/d resets u know where he is, u can follow him, DE reseting is as previous guy told completely different lvl, based on how stealth works in this game.U try to compare spikes of d/p with his reset potential to the same of DE. Ur not legit

If S/D resets, he resets. How can a reset be different from a reset? Besides that S/D builds (or Daredevil) have other advantages over Deadeye...

Can you please read my post again? I did not compare the damage of thief builds at all...

If apple is an apple than its an apple. Gz.Now try to understand the deadeye problem in higher perspective. As I told, it's a problem of low risk high reward,
I'm to tired of telling it all once again.
U compared DE to mirage, holo and soul beast. So u know these classes has balance problems. If u know that, than comparing DE to classes with balance issues makes no sense. I'm wasting time here...

Same here. At least you admit that your argument about the difference of resets is nonsense.

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babazhook.6805

babazhook.6805

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@omgdracula.6345 said:

@omgdracula.6345 said:People in here really trying to defend stealth on dodge?
That is the single most broken mechanic I have seen.
You are literally defending something that has no cooldown other than your stamina limitation that gives extreme benefits to the user. Hell it doesn't even have an ICD.

Ok, you must be pretty new to this game, right? a) Stamina is a real restriction and b) Mirage Cloak (1s dodge + can be used while stunned), Soulbeast boon stacking (in particular the damage+sustain resulting from this), Rampage and Holosmith are all perfectly balanced, right?

Yes, Endurance is a restriction. But when you have 3-4 seconds of stealth per dodge to stall the fight, with plenty of ways to increase the flow of Endurance, one has to ask how restrictive it actually is when implemented in this way.

I also find it interesting that you point out that Endurance has restrictions, just to use Mirage Cloak as a counter-example to back up your point when it is also limited to Endurance. Is Mirage Cloak too strong in its current implementation or not? I can imagine you might be equally annoyed by someone arguing "Well, it's limited to Endurance so it's balanced" in order to defend it. Keep in mind, I am fully aware of how frustrating it is to fight a Mirage as any class besides a Thief.

But I digress. Your counter-argument seems to be "These classes over here are equally if not more unbalanced." Perhaps you are correct, but it is irrelevant to this discussion. Each of the classes mentioned have their own threads/discussions on what to do with them.

I didn't mean to give counter examples. I was just referring to the claim that Silent Scope would be
"the single most broken mechanic"
in the game. That's why I mentioned e.g. Mirage Cloak which is in my opinion at least as strong as Stealth on Dodge. But I agree that mentioning Souldbeast and Holosmith is problematic, because it's not one mechanic that makes them so good atm but several skills that functions very well together.

The problem is that Deadeye was just redesigned to function like this: Stack Malice and then execute a stealth attack for a major advantage. But how should this work if you have no good access to stealth? Like e.g. on Shortbow and Sword/Pistol? So just removing the stealth trait would basically make Rifle no longer really fitting the design (yes, you can use Kneel + Sniper's Cover + Free Action + Death's Retreat but that's ridiculous and you would die trying this against any competent opponent...) which would also be stupid because it's
the
Weapon for Deadeyes...

Also, stealth is the only real defensive mechanic in nearly any Deadeye build. I mean (in WvW at least) you can run Acrobatics over Deadly Arts or Critical Strikes but this will significantly lower your damage (which is what many people want, lowering the burst) and one basically only does this to get more frequent use of Silent Scope anyway. And besides this option there is nothing left: No Rifle-skill has a build-in evade (like S/D), block or any kind of damage mitigation. You don't even have an interrupt, an unblockable attack or a reliable blind...

To sum it up: Most people believe that bringing back the old Silent Scope would fix the problem with high stealth uptime. But it is simple not true... Even before the redesign it was possible to have this amount of stealth. It was basically just better because you had stealth + dodge whenever you need it (at the cost of fluent gameplay)... Now you more or less
waste
energy if you are forced to dodge while Revealed. But that's what most people who just qq don't understand.

I agree that Silent Scope is not the
most broken
mechanic in the game. It is however a mechanic I think most of us can give good commentary/criticism on since I'm assuming the lot of us in this thread are Thief mains.

Stealth is definitely a defensive mechanic as well as an offensive mechanic that is crucial for the Deadeye due to how their Malice expenditure works. They do absolutely need that quick and easy access to stealth. This is why I was glad ANet added a stealth to Deadeye stolen skills (they were borderline useless without it). The issue is that in its current form, there is too much reward for very little risk or investment. It's simply a dumb mechanic that is needlessly frustrating to fight against. Nevermind the fact that the Malice stacking you mentioned doesn't seem to affect the Deadeye the way it should because it is very frequent that they completely ignore its purpose and just outright burst the target from stealth.

I'm also of the opinion that Shadow Arts generally needs to be addressed as it is a key player in the "perma-stealth" issue. I've stated in the past that it is a generally unhealthy traitline that rewards passive gameplay (with the exception of Rending Shade) which ANet generally frowns upon, which is why it is so surprising they haven't touched it. It's in a bizarre limbo where it's useless in some settings but frustrating to fight in others. My point here is I agree with you that this is a multi-faceted issue.

SA needs rework, but it's not mandatory for perms stealth.Main problems with deadeye:
  1. High opening burst.
  2. Easy access to stealth.
  3. Crazy amount of stealth.1st and 3rd point are not bad by themselfs. What makes this combo broken is adding these 2 AND also 2nd point - silent scope, that gives deadeye way to easy reset potential. U just swap to rifle, dodge roll once or twice and reset completely. That's unacceptable to leave this as it is cuz it promotes way to low risk, high reward gameplay.

That pretty much sums up the issue here.

SA is still a poorly balanced trait line though.

This sums up nothing. It just is a list that more or less characterize what defines the current meta: a) have good burst and b) bring enough sustain (and mobility for roaming).

Replace 3 by "Crazy amount of sustain" and you basically have characterized what fighting an engineer feels like... Or replace 3 by "Crazy sustain" and add 4 "Easily apply many boons" and you have described Soulbeast... Oh, how about replacing 3 by "Crazy amount of defensive cds" and add 4 "Ridiculous mobility" and you characterized Mesmer? Should I go on?

This list of so-called "main problems" (for Deadeye) is just a list of things you don't like to deal with and hence just cry for nerfs.

Holos and sb have a balance issues, while deadeye and mirage are just trashly designed(or both of this problems).If u tune down the soul beast or holo fighting them won't be a big problem, while mirage with mirage cloak still will be cancer, and deadeye will still be able to reset in every possible situation, until the mechanics won't be changed.There is a difference between numbers and bad design

And what is the problem if someone resets? You also get out of combat, heal to full hp and your skills come off cd... So no one should really get a huge advantage out of that.

The problem I think they are bringing up as far as reset is that you can make a mistake and not worry about it. Missed a skill? Reset, Got caught and punished? Reset. Someone got the jump on me? Reset.

Issue is if they couldn’t reset no one would play the class. Due to how little damage they can sustain they would have to out play and make zero mistakes every fight to stand a chance at a win in the 1v1 fight.arenet would have to make some changes to make their mistakes a little more forgiving

Yea but DE shouldn't be 1v1ing regardless vs taking out a target quickly. IMHO. I look at pvp differently if I make a mistake I expect to get punished not just reset when I want to if I mess up etc. If a player capitalizes on my misplay then they are the better player. But isn't that how it should be? The player that makes the least mistakes should win. That goes for any game. RTS, FPS, Fighting etc.

I've seen RTS players have flawless opening sequences and still get rushed and rolled up anyway. Thieves do get punished for their mistakes, it's why they stealth or reset, because they can't take as much punishment.

Yea but allowing them to reset promotes bad play. Maybe if you are S/D you do, maybe even D/P, but DE is a whole different level.

No it does not "promote bad gameplay" Reset is part of the defenses a thief has just as other classes have OTHER advantages that allow them to stick in a fight without a reset. I do not have to reset on my warrior as often due to blocks, high incoming heals , higher armor , Endure pain , higher vitality and the like. Just because my warrior can use these things rather then breaking off a fight does not mean I am a better player or play a "healthier style".

Add to that if I have all of these tools in my arsenal to generate my sustain and survivability , I can remain in the fight and NOT allow the enemy a change to get that healt or INI back IF the thief stays in the fight AND if that thief does in fact reset all of my own used skills come off cooldown. I can make a whole pile of mistakes where the thief can not. Add to that a warrior , depending on enemies faced can break off a fight and reset as well. A Common strategy is when in trouble on warrior is to break off , get those skills off cooldown and health rebuilt as you flee, then turn on the pursuing enemy at an opportune time to take him out. I have won fights on my warrior , without dodging or blocking a single attack just due to the high armor and sustain. granted this against poorer players but my thief would never win such a fight if it did not dodge , stealth from or resetting on those same bad players.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with resetting a fight. It a viable strategy and one of the assets a thief has given they like all those other things that allow other classes to stay in a fight and given the fact the thief uses INI over cooldown skills which can lock him out of weapon skills outside #1 for periods of time.

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omgdracula.6345

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@babazhook.6805 said:

@omgdracula.6345 said:People in here really trying to defend stealth on dodge?
That is the single most broken mechanic I have seen.
You are literally defending something that has no cooldown other than your stamina limitation that gives extreme benefits to the user. Hell it doesn't even have an ICD.

Ok, you must be pretty new to this game, right? a) Stamina is a real restriction and b) Mirage Cloak (1s dodge + can be used while stunned), Soulbeast boon stacking (in particular the damage+sustain resulting from this), Rampage and Holosmith are all perfectly balanced, right?

Yes, Endurance is a restriction. But when you have 3-4 seconds of stealth per dodge to stall the fight, with plenty of ways to increase the flow of Endurance, one has to ask how restrictive it actually is when implemented in this way.

I also find it interesting that you point out that Endurance has restrictions, just to use Mirage Cloak as a counter-example to back up your point when it is also limited to Endurance. Is Mirage Cloak too strong in its current implementation or not? I can imagine you might be equally annoyed by someone arguing "Well, it's limited to Endurance so it's balanced" in order to defend it. Keep in mind, I am fully aware of how frustrating it is to fight a Mirage as any class besides a Thief.

But I digress. Your counter-argument seems to be "These classes over here are equally if not more unbalanced." Perhaps you are correct, but it is irrelevant to this discussion. Each of the classes mentioned have their own threads/discussions on what to do with them.

I didn't mean to give counter examples. I was just referring to the claim that Silent Scope would be
"the single most broken mechanic"
in the game. That's why I mentioned e.g. Mirage Cloak which is in my opinion at least as strong as Stealth on Dodge. But I agree that mentioning Souldbeast and Holosmith is problematic, because it's not one mechanic that makes them so good atm but several skills that functions very well together.

The problem is that Deadeye was just redesigned to function like this: Stack Malice and then execute a stealth attack for a major advantage. But how should this work if you have no good access to stealth? Like e.g. on Shortbow and Sword/Pistol? So just removing the stealth trait would basically make Rifle no longer really fitting the design (yes, you can use Kneel + Sniper's Cover + Free Action + Death's Retreat but that's ridiculous and you would die trying this against any competent opponent...) which would also be stupid because it's
the
Weapon for Deadeyes...

Also, stealth is the only real defensive mechanic in nearly any Deadeye build. I mean (in WvW at least) you can run Acrobatics over Deadly Arts or Critical Strikes but this will significantly lower your damage (which is what many people want, lowering the burst) and one basically only does this to get more frequent use of Silent Scope anyway. And besides this option there is nothing left: No Rifle-skill has a build-in evade (like S/D), block or any kind of damage mitigation. You don't even have an interrupt, an unblockable attack or a reliable blind...

To sum it up: Most people believe that bringing back the old Silent Scope would fix the problem with high stealth uptime. But it is simple not true... Even before the redesign it was possible to have this amount of stealth. It was basically just better because you had stealth + dodge whenever you need it (at the cost of fluent gameplay)... Now you more or less
waste
energy if you are forced to dodge while Revealed. But that's what most people who just qq don't understand.

I agree that Silent Scope is not the
most broken
mechanic in the game. It is however a mechanic I think most of us can give good commentary/criticism on since I'm assuming the lot of us in this thread are Thief mains.

Stealth is definitely a defensive mechanic as well as an offensive mechanic that is crucial for the Deadeye due to how their Malice expenditure works. They do absolutely need that quick and easy access to stealth. This is why I was glad ANet added a stealth to Deadeye stolen skills (they were borderline useless without it). The issue is that in its current form, there is too much reward for very little risk or investment. It's simply a dumb mechanic that is needlessly frustrating to fight against. Nevermind the fact that the Malice stacking you mentioned doesn't seem to affect the Deadeye the way it should because it is very frequent that they completely ignore its purpose and just outright burst the target from stealth.

I'm also of the opinion that Shadow Arts generally needs to be addressed as it is a key player in the "perma-stealth" issue. I've stated in the past that it is a generally unhealthy traitline that rewards passive gameplay (with the exception of Rending Shade) which ANet generally frowns upon, which is why it is so surprising they haven't touched it. It's in a bizarre limbo where it's useless in some settings but frustrating to fight in others. My point here is I agree with you that this is a multi-faceted issue.

SA needs rework, but it's not mandatory for perms stealth.Main problems with deadeye:
  1. High opening burst.
  2. Easy access to stealth.
  3. Crazy amount of stealth.1st and 3rd point are not bad by themselfs. What makes this combo broken is adding these 2 AND also 2nd point - silent scope, that gives deadeye way to easy reset potential. U just swap to rifle, dodge roll once or twice and reset completely. That's unacceptable to leave this as it is cuz it promotes way to low risk, high reward gameplay.

That pretty much sums up the issue here.

SA is still a poorly balanced trait line though.

This sums up nothing. It just is a list that more or less characterize what defines the current meta: a) have good burst and b) bring enough sustain (and mobility for roaming).

Replace 3 by "Crazy amount of sustain" and you basically have characterized what fighting an engineer feels like... Or replace 3 by "Crazy sustain" and add 4 "Easily apply many boons" and you have described Soulbeast... Oh, how about replacing 3 by "Crazy amount of defensive cds" and add 4 "Ridiculous mobility" and you characterized Mesmer? Should I go on?

This list of so-called "main problems" (for Deadeye) is just a list of things you don't like to deal with and hence just cry for nerfs.

Holos and sb have a balance issues, while deadeye and mirage are just trashly designed(or both of this problems).If u tune down the soul beast or holo fighting them won't be a big problem, while mirage with mirage cloak still will be cancer, and deadeye will still be able to reset in every possible situation, until the mechanics won't be changed.There is a difference between numbers and bad design

And what is the problem if someone resets? You also get out of combat, heal to full hp and your skills come off cd... So no one should really get a huge advantage out of that.

The problem I think they are bringing up as far as reset is that you can make a mistake and not worry about it. Missed a skill? Reset, Got caught and punished? Reset. Someone got the jump on me? Reset.

Issue is if they couldn’t reset no one would play the class. Due to how little damage they can sustain they would have to out play and make zero mistakes every fight to stand a chance at a win in the 1v1 fight.arenet would have to make some changes to make their mistakes a little more forgiving

Yea but DE shouldn't be 1v1ing regardless vs taking out a target quickly. IMHO. I look at pvp differently if I make a mistake I expect to get punished not just reset when I want to if I mess up etc. If a player capitalizes on my misplay then they are the better player. But isn't that how it should be? The player that makes the least mistakes should win. That goes for any game. RTS, FPS, Fighting etc.

I've seen RTS players have flawless opening sequences and still get rushed and rolled up anyway. Thieves do get punished for their mistakes, it's why they stealth or reset, because they can't take as much punishment.

Yea but allowing them to reset promotes bad play. Maybe if you are S/D you do, maybe even D/P, but DE is a whole different level.

No it does not "promote bad gameplay" Reset is part of the defenses a thief has just as other classes have OTHER advantages that allow them to stick in a fight without a reset. I do not have to reset on my warrior as often due to blocks, high incoming heals , higher armor , Endure pain , higher vitality and the like. Just because my warrior can use these things rather then breaking off a fight does not mean I am a better player or play a "healthier style".

Add to that if I have all of these tools in my arsenal to generate my sustain and survivability , I can remain in the fight and NOT allow the enemy a change to get that healt or INI back IF the thief stays in the fight AND if that thief does in fact reset all of my own used skills come off cooldown. I can make a whole pile of mistakes where the thief can not. Add to that a warrior , depending on enemies faced can break off a fight and reset as well. A Common strategy is when in trouble on warrior is to break off , get those skills off cooldown and health rebuilt as you flee, then turn on the pursuing enemy at an opportune time to take him out. I have won fights on my warrior , without dodging or blocking a single attack just due to the high armor and sustain. granted this against poorer players but my thief would never win such a fight if it did not dodge , stealth from or resetting on those same bad players.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with resetting a fight. It a viable strategy and one of the assets a thief has given they like all those other things that allow other classes to stay in a fight and given the fact the thief uses INI over cooldown skills which can lock him out of weapon skills outside #1 for periods of time.

No resetting with a simple dodge(that grants you stealth) or in mesmers case stunbreaks as well is absolutely bad design that promotes bad gameplay. There is a difference you are overlooking. There is healthy resetting and unhealthy(0 consequence resetting). For example D/P Daredevil. If I steal in and miss and have to reset. My options are to shadowstep out, powder out, or black powder and HS to gain stealth. Which means I have to burn a cool down or waste initiative. Then there is unhealthy resetting where I just tap my dodge key and waste nothing other than some endurance which is easily and quickly regenerated.

So maybe not ALL resetting promotes bad gameplay but there are definitely forms of it that do. As I said before resetting on DE is COMPLETELY different than resetting on DD/Core S/D.

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babazhook.6805

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@omgdracula.6345 said:

@omgdracula.6345 said:People in here really trying to defend stealth on dodge?
That is the single most broken mechanic I have seen.
You are literally defending something that has no cooldown other than your stamina limitation that gives extreme benefits to the user. Hell it doesn't even have an ICD.

Ok, you must be pretty new to this game, right? a) Stamina is a real restriction and b) Mirage Cloak (1s dodge + can be used while stunned), Soulbeast boon stacking (in particular the damage+sustain resulting from this), Rampage and Holosmith are all perfectly balanced, right?

Yes, Endurance is a restriction. But when you have 3-4 seconds of stealth per dodge to stall the fight, with plenty of ways to increase the flow of Endurance, one has to ask how restrictive it actually is when implemented in this way.

I also find it interesting that you point out that Endurance has restrictions, just to use Mirage Cloak as a counter-example to back up your point when it is also limited to Endurance. Is Mirage Cloak too strong in its current implementation or not? I can imagine you might be equally annoyed by someone arguing "Well, it's limited to Endurance so it's balanced" in order to defend it. Keep in mind, I am fully aware of how frustrating it is to fight a Mirage as any class besides a Thief.

But I digress. Your counter-argument seems to be "These classes over here are equally if not more unbalanced." Perhaps you are correct, but it is irrelevant to this discussion. Each of the classes mentioned have their own threads/discussions on what to do with them.

I didn't mean to give counter examples. I was just referring to the claim that Silent Scope would be
"the single most broken mechanic"
in the game. That's why I mentioned e.g. Mirage Cloak which is in my opinion at least as strong as Stealth on Dodge. But I agree that mentioning Souldbeast and Holosmith is problematic, because it's not one mechanic that makes them so good atm but several skills that functions very well together.

The problem is that Deadeye was just redesigned to function like this: Stack Malice and then execute a stealth attack for a major advantage. But how should this work if you have no good access to stealth? Like e.g. on Shortbow and Sword/Pistol? So just removing the stealth trait would basically make Rifle no longer really fitting the design (yes, you can use Kneel + Sniper's Cover + Free Action + Death's Retreat but that's ridiculous and you would die trying this against any competent opponent...) which would also be stupid because it's
the
Weapon for Deadeyes...

Also, stealth is the only real defensive mechanic in nearly any Deadeye build. I mean (in WvW at least) you can run Acrobatics over Deadly Arts or Critical Strikes but this will significantly lower your damage (which is what many people want, lowering the burst) and one basically only does this to get more frequent use of Silent Scope anyway. And besides this option there is nothing left: No Rifle-skill has a build-in evade (like S/D), block or any kind of damage mitigation. You don't even have an interrupt, an unblockable attack or a reliable blind...

To sum it up: Most people believe that bringing back the old Silent Scope would fix the problem with high stealth uptime. But it is simple not true... Even before the redesign it was possible to have this amount of stealth. It was basically just better because you had stealth + dodge whenever you need it (at the cost of fluent gameplay)... Now you more or less
waste
energy if you are forced to dodge while Revealed. But that's what most people who just qq don't understand.

I agree that Silent Scope is not the
most broken
mechanic in the game. It is however a mechanic I think most of us can give good commentary/criticism on since I'm assuming the lot of us in this thread are Thief mains.

Stealth is definitely a defensive mechanic as well as an offensive mechanic that is crucial for the Deadeye due to how their Malice expenditure works. They do absolutely need that quick and easy access to stealth. This is why I was glad ANet added a stealth to Deadeye stolen skills (they were borderline useless without it). The issue is that in its current form, there is too much reward for very little risk or investment. It's simply a dumb mechanic that is needlessly frustrating to fight against. Nevermind the fact that the Malice stacking you mentioned doesn't seem to affect the Deadeye the way it should because it is very frequent that they completely ignore its purpose and just outright burst the target from stealth.

I'm also of the opinion that Shadow Arts generally needs to be addressed as it is a key player in the "perma-stealth" issue. I've stated in the past that it is a generally unhealthy traitline that rewards passive gameplay (with the exception of Rending Shade) which ANet generally frowns upon, which is why it is so surprising they haven't touched it. It's in a bizarre limbo where it's useless in some settings but frustrating to fight in others. My point here is I agree with you that this is a multi-faceted issue.

SA needs rework, but it's not mandatory for perms stealth.Main problems with deadeye:
  1. High opening burst.
  2. Easy access to stealth.
  3. Crazy amount of stealth.1st and 3rd point are not bad by themselfs. What makes this combo broken is adding these 2 AND also 2nd point - silent scope, that gives deadeye way to easy reset potential. U just swap to rifle, dodge roll once or twice and reset completely. That's unacceptable to leave this as it is cuz it promotes way to low risk, high reward gameplay.

That pretty much sums up the issue here.

SA is still a poorly balanced trait line though.

This sums up nothing. It just is a list that more or less characterize what defines the current meta: a) have good burst and b) bring enough sustain (and mobility for roaming).

Replace 3 by "Crazy amount of sustain" and you basically have characterized what fighting an engineer feels like... Or replace 3 by "Crazy sustain" and add 4 "Easily apply many boons" and you have described Soulbeast... Oh, how about replacing 3 by "Crazy amount of defensive cds" and add 4 "Ridiculous mobility" and you characterized Mesmer? Should I go on?

This list of so-called "main problems" (for Deadeye) is just a list of things you don't like to deal with and hence just cry for nerfs.

Holos and sb have a balance issues, while deadeye and mirage are just trashly designed(or both of this problems).If u tune down the soul beast or holo fighting them won't be a big problem, while mirage with mirage cloak still will be cancer, and deadeye will still be able to reset in every possible situation, until the mechanics won't be changed.There is a difference between numbers and bad design

And what is the problem if someone resets? You also get out of combat, heal to full hp and your skills come off cd... So no one should really get a huge advantage out of that.

The problem I think they are bringing up as far as reset is that you can make a mistake and not worry about it. Missed a skill? Reset, Got caught and punished? Reset. Someone got the jump on me? Reset.

Issue is if they couldn’t reset no one would play the class. Due to how little damage they can sustain they would have to out play and make zero mistakes every fight to stand a chance at a win in the 1v1 fight.arenet would have to make some changes to make their mistakes a little more forgiving

Yea but DE shouldn't be 1v1ing regardless vs taking out a target quickly. IMHO. I look at pvp differently if I make a mistake I expect to get punished not just reset when I want to if I mess up etc. If a player capitalizes on my misplay then they are the better player. But isn't that how it should be? The player that makes the least mistakes should win. That goes for any game. RTS, FPS, Fighting etc.

I've seen RTS players have flawless opening sequences and still get rushed and rolled up anyway. Thieves do get punished for their mistakes, it's why they stealth or reset, because they can't take as much punishment.

Yea but allowing them to reset promotes bad play. Maybe if you are S/D you do, maybe even D/P, but DE is a whole different level.

No it does not "promote bad gameplay" Reset is part of the defenses a thief has just as other classes have OTHER advantages that allow them to stick in a fight without a reset. I do not have to reset on my warrior as often due to blocks, high incoming heals , higher armor , Endure pain , higher vitality and the like. Just because my warrior can use these things rather then breaking off a fight does not mean I am a better player or play a "healthier style".

Add to that if I have all of these tools in my arsenal to generate my sustain and survivability , I can remain in the fight and NOT allow the enemy a change to get that healt or INI back IF the thief stays in the fight AND if that thief does in fact reset all of my own used skills come off cooldown. I can make a whole pile of mistakes where the thief can not. Add to that a warrior , depending on enemies faced can break off a fight and reset as well. A Common strategy is when in trouble on warrior is to break off , get those skills off cooldown and health rebuilt as you flee, then turn on the pursuing enemy at an opportune time to take him out. I have won fights on my warrior , without dodging or blocking a single attack just due to the high armor and sustain. granted this against poorer players but my thief would never win such a fight if it did not dodge , stealth from or resetting on those same bad players.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with resetting a fight. It a viable strategy and one of the assets a thief has given they like all those other things that allow other classes to stay in a fight and given the fact the thief uses INI over cooldown skills which can lock him out of weapon skills outside #1 for periods of time.

No resetting with a simple dodge(that grants you stealth) or in mesmers case stunbreaks as well is absolutely bad design that promotes bad gameplay. There is a difference you are overlooking. There is healthy resetting and unhealthy(0 consequence resetting). For example D/P Daredevil. If I steal in and miss and have to reset. My options are to shadowstep out, powder out, or black powder and HS to gain stealth. Which means I have to burn a cool down or waste initiative. Then there is unhealthy resetting where I just tap my dodge key and waste nothing other than some endurance which is easily and quickly regenerated.

So maybe not ALL resetting promotes bad gameplay but there are definitely forms of it that do. As I said before resetting on DE is COMPLETELY different than resetting on DD/Core S/D.

It is not "completely different" . First and foremost DE is not just rifle and the only spech you are talking about is Rifle. DE without Rifle has less dodges than Daredevil . My d/p staff Daredevil has a much easier time resetting then my DE P/d build.

DE Rifle without stealth has fewer dodges then DrD no blocks no blinds , no interrupts and no Invuln frames such as one gets with Daggerstorm. The only reset it has is stealth and the build is focused on stealth. Complaining about stealth on DE Rifle WHICH the build designed around is like complaining about dodges on a daredevil. Endurance on a Daredevil is recovered a lot faster than on a DE Rifle and chaining multiple dodges in a row is very effective at avoiding damage and breaking off combat.

Thief has always been able to break off a fight and reset even prior to DE rifle and the same complaints about that ability to reset have been going on for years. Just because DE rifle uses a different method does not make it suddenly bad.

The issue with thief is only indirectly related to stealth on dodge with Rifle specced. It is with camping stealth for long periods of time which has been around for years and is why Ghost Thief caused such QQ. The simplest fix is to reduce the amount of seconds of stealth one gets from a given skill use when one already stealthed. A one second shave would go a long ways here.

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@babazhook.6805 said:

@omgdracula.6345 said:People in here really trying to defend stealth on dodge?
That is the single most broken mechanic I have seen.
You are literally defending something that has no cooldown other than your stamina limitation that gives extreme benefits to the user. Hell it doesn't even have an ICD.

Ok, you must be pretty new to this game, right? a) Stamina is a real restriction and b) Mirage Cloak (1s dodge + can be used while stunned), Soulbeast boon stacking (in particular the damage+sustain resulting from this), Rampage and Holosmith are all perfectly balanced, right?

Yes, Endurance is a restriction. But when you have 3-4 seconds of stealth per dodge to stall the fight, with plenty of ways to increase the flow of Endurance, one has to ask how restrictive it actually is when implemented in this way.

I also find it interesting that you point out that Endurance has restrictions, just to use Mirage Cloak as a counter-example to back up your point when it is also limited to Endurance. Is Mirage Cloak too strong in its current implementation or not? I can imagine you might be equally annoyed by someone arguing "Well, it's limited to Endurance so it's balanced" in order to defend it. Keep in mind, I am fully aware of how frustrating it is to fight a Mirage as any class besides a Thief.

But I digress. Your counter-argument seems to be "These classes over here are equally if not more unbalanced." Perhaps you are correct, but it is irrelevant to this discussion. Each of the classes mentioned have their own threads/discussions on what to do with them.

I didn't mean to give counter examples. I was just referring to the claim that Silent Scope would be
"the single most broken mechanic"
in the game. That's why I mentioned e.g. Mirage Cloak which is in my opinion at least as strong as Stealth on Dodge. But I agree that mentioning Souldbeast and Holosmith is problematic, because it's not one mechanic that makes them so good atm but several skills that functions very well together.

The problem is that Deadeye was just redesigned to function like this: Stack Malice and then execute a stealth attack for a major advantage. But how should this work if you have no good access to stealth? Like e.g. on Shortbow and Sword/Pistol? So just removing the stealth trait would basically make Rifle no longer really fitting the design (yes, you can use Kneel + Sniper's Cover + Free Action + Death's Retreat but that's ridiculous and you would die trying this against any competent opponent...) which would also be stupid because it's
the
Weapon for Deadeyes...

Also, stealth is the only real defensive mechanic in nearly any Deadeye build. I mean (in WvW at least) you can run Acrobatics over Deadly Arts or Critical Strikes but this will significantly lower your damage (which is what many people want, lowering the burst) and one basically only does this to get more frequent use of Silent Scope anyway. And besides this option there is nothing left: No Rifle-skill has a build-in evade (like S/D), block or any kind of damage mitigation. You don't even have an interrupt, an unblockable attack or a reliable blind...

To sum it up: Most people believe that bringing back the old Silent Scope would fix the problem with high stealth uptime. But it is simple not true... Even before the redesign it was possible to have this amount of stealth. It was basically just better because you had stealth + dodge whenever you need it (at the cost of fluent gameplay)... Now you more or less
waste
energy if you are forced to dodge while Revealed. But that's what most people who just qq don't understand.

I agree that Silent Scope is not the
most broken
mechanic in the game. It is however a mechanic I think most of us can give good commentary/criticism on since I'm assuming the lot of us in this thread are Thief mains.

Stealth is definitely a defensive mechanic as well as an offensive mechanic that is crucial for the Deadeye due to how their Malice expenditure works. They do absolutely need that quick and easy access to stealth. This is why I was glad ANet added a stealth to Deadeye stolen skills (they were borderline useless without it). The issue is that in its current form, there is too much reward for very little risk or investment. It's simply a dumb mechanic that is needlessly frustrating to fight against. Nevermind the fact that the Malice stacking you mentioned doesn't seem to affect the Deadeye the way it should because it is very frequent that they completely ignore its purpose and just outright burst the target from stealth.

I'm also of the opinion that Shadow Arts generally needs to be addressed as it is a key player in the "perma-stealth" issue. I've stated in the past that it is a generally unhealthy traitline that rewards passive gameplay (with the exception of Rending Shade) which ANet generally frowns upon, which is why it is so surprising they haven't touched it. It's in a bizarre limbo where it's useless in some settings but frustrating to fight in others. My point here is I agree with you that this is a multi-faceted issue.

SA needs rework, but it's not mandatory for perms stealth.Main problems with deadeye:
  1. High opening burst.
  2. Easy access to stealth.
  3. Crazy amount of stealth.1st and 3rd point are not bad by themselfs. What makes this combo broken is adding these 2 AND also 2nd point - silent scope, that gives deadeye way to easy reset potential. U just swap to rifle, dodge roll once or twice and reset completely. That's unacceptable to leave this as it is cuz it promotes way to low risk, high reward gameplay.

That pretty much sums up the issue here.

SA is still a poorly balanced trait line though.

This sums up nothing. It just is a list that more or less characterize what defines the current meta: a) have good burst and b) bring enough sustain (and mobility for roaming).

Replace 3 by "Crazy amount of sustain" and you basically have characterized what fighting an engineer feels like... Or replace 3 by "Crazy sustain" and add 4 "Easily apply many boons" and you have described Soulbeast... Oh, how about replacing 3 by "Crazy amount of defensive cds" and add 4 "Ridiculous mobility" and you characterized Mesmer? Should I go on?

This list of so-called "main problems" (for Deadeye) is just a list of things you don't like to deal with and hence just cry for nerfs.

Holos and sb have a balance issues, while deadeye and mirage are just trashly designed(or both of this problems).If u tune down the soul beast or holo fighting them won't be a big problem, while mirage with mirage cloak still will be cancer, and deadeye will still be able to reset in every possible situation, until the mechanics won't be changed.There is a difference between numbers and bad design

And what is the problem if someone resets? You also get out of combat, heal to full hp and your skills come off cd... So no one should really get a huge advantage out of that.

The problem I think they are bringing up as far as reset is that you can make a mistake and not worry about it. Missed a skill? Reset, Got caught and punished? Reset. Someone got the jump on me? Reset.

Issue is if they couldn’t reset no one would play the class. Due to how little damage they can sustain they would have to out play and make zero mistakes every fight to stand a chance at a win in the 1v1 fight.arenet would have to make some changes to make their mistakes a little more forgiving

Yea but DE shouldn't be 1v1ing regardless vs taking out a target quickly. IMHO. I look at pvp differently if I make a mistake I expect to get punished not just reset when I want to if I mess up etc. If a player capitalizes on my misplay then they are the better player. But isn't that how it should be? The player that makes the least mistakes should win. That goes for any game. RTS, FPS, Fighting etc.

I've seen RTS players have flawless opening sequences and still get rushed and rolled up anyway. Thieves do get punished for their mistakes, it's why they stealth or reset, because they can't take as much punishment.

Yea but allowing them to reset promotes bad play. Maybe if you are S/D you do, maybe even D/P, but DE is a whole different level.

No it does not "promote bad gameplay" Reset is part of the defenses a thief has just as other classes have OTHER advantages that allow them to stick in a fight without a reset. I do not have to reset on my warrior as often due to blocks, high incoming heals , higher armor , Endure pain , higher vitality and the like. Just because my warrior can use these things rather then breaking off a fight does not mean I am a better player or play a "healthier style".

Add to that if I have all of these tools in my arsenal to generate my sustain and survivability , I can remain in the fight and NOT allow the enemy a change to get that healt or INI back IF the thief stays in the fight AND if that thief does in fact reset all of my own used skills come off cooldown. I can make a whole pile of mistakes where the thief can not. Add to that a warrior , depending on enemies faced can break off a fight and reset as well. A Common strategy is when in trouble on warrior is to break off , get those skills off cooldown and health rebuilt as you flee, then turn on the pursuing enemy at an opportune time to take him out. I have won fights on my warrior , without dodging or blocking a single attack just due to the high armor and sustain. granted this against poorer players but my thief would never win such a fight if it did not dodge , stealth from or resetting on those same bad players.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with resetting a fight. It a viable strategy and one of the assets a thief has given they like all those other things that allow other classes to stay in a fight and given the fact the thief uses INI over cooldown skills which can lock him out of weapon skills outside #1 for periods of time.

No resetting with a simple dodge(that grants you stealth) or in mesmers case stunbreaks as well is absolutely bad design that promotes bad gameplay. There is a difference you are overlooking. There is healthy resetting and unhealthy(0 consequence resetting). For example D/P Daredevil. If I steal in and miss and have to reset. My options are to shadowstep out, powder out, or black powder and HS to gain stealth. Which means I have to burn a cool down or waste initiative. Then there is unhealthy resetting where I just tap my dodge key and waste nothing other than some endurance which is easily and quickly regenerated.

So maybe not ALL resetting promotes bad gameplay but there are definitely forms of it that do. As I said before resetting on DE is COMPLETELY different than resetting on DD/Core S/D.

It is not "completely different" . First and foremost DE is not just rifle and the only spech you are talking about is Rifle. DE without Rifle has less dodges than Daredevil . My d/p staff Daredevil has a much easier time resetting then my DE P/d build.

DE Rifle without stealth has fewer dodges then DrD no blocks no blinds , no interrupts and no Invuln frames such as one gets with Daggerstorm. The only reset it has is stealth and the build is focused on stealth. Complaining about stealth on DE Rifle WHICH the build designed around is like complaining about dodges on a daredevil. Endurance on a Daredevil is recovered a lot faster than on a DE Rifle and chaining multiple dodges in a row is very effective at avoiding damage and breaking off combat.

Thief has always been able to break off a fight and reset even prior to DE rifle and the same complaints about that ability to reset have been going on for years. Just because DE rifle uses a different method does not make it suddenly bad.

The issue with thief is only indirectly related to stealth on dodge with Rifle specced. It is with camping stealth for long periods of time which has been around for years and is why Ghost Thief caused such QQ. The simplest fix is to reduce the amount of seconds of stealth one gets from a given skill use when one already stealthed. A one second shave would go a long ways here.

There is nothing easier than resetting by pressing a dodge key and getting stealth. You literally remove yourself from the fight instantly without wasting a major cool down or initiative.

No I am talking about just DE in general. Most of the points you made are mute because the DE build in pvp runs dagger storm and also runs signet of agility. Just because DrD has one extra dodge doesn't mean anything. Especially when that dodge effect has a drawback(exhaustion) where as Silent Scope doesn't. It is also a flat buff to all weapon sets and an extra buff to rifle. DE Rile never runs without stealth so again your point is moot.

You are correct thief has always been able to break off but not without spending a cooldown or using initiative. Endurance is such an easily regened resource there are no drawbacks to it.

Ghost thief in WvW also required that you cycle through traps to stack up the stealth.

No that isn't the solution. You would be nerfing other thief specs indirectly for a single case. No one has an issue with D/P stealth. No one has an issue with S/D. People STRICTLY have an issue with how easy it is for silent scope. The easiest fix is to give it either an ICD or exhaustion just like they did with dash.

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babazhook.6805

babazhook.6805

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@omgdracula.6345 said:

@omgdracula.6345 said:People in here really trying to defend stealth on dodge?
That is the single most broken mechanic I have seen.
You are literally defending something that has no cooldown other than your stamina limitation that gives extreme benefits to the user. Hell it doesn't even have an ICD.

Ok, you must be pretty new to this game, right? a) Stamina is a real restriction and b) Mirage Cloak (1s dodge + can be used while stunned), Soulbeast boon stacking (in particular the damage+sustain resulting from this), Rampage and Holosmith are all perfectly balanced, right?

Yes, Endurance is a restriction. But when you have 3-4 seconds of stealth per dodge to stall the fight, with plenty of ways to increase the flow of Endurance, one has to ask how restrictive it actually is when implemented in this way.

I also find it interesting that you point out that Endurance has restrictions, just to use Mirage Cloak as a counter-example to back up your point when it is also limited to Endurance. Is Mirage Cloak too strong in its current implementation or not? I can imagine you might be equally annoyed by someone arguing "Well, it's limited to Endurance so it's balanced" in order to defend it. Keep in mind, I am fully aware of how frustrating it is to fight a Mirage as any class besides a Thief.

But I digress. Your counter-argument seems to be "These classes over here are equally if not more unbalanced." Perhaps you are correct, but it is irrelevant to this discussion. Each of the classes mentioned have their own threads/discussions on what to do with them.

I didn't mean to give counter examples. I was just referring to the claim that Silent Scope would be
"the single most broken mechanic"
in the game. That's why I mentioned e.g. Mirage Cloak which is in my opinion at least as strong as Stealth on Dodge. But I agree that mentioning Souldbeast and Holosmith is problematic, because it's not one mechanic that makes them so good atm but several skills that functions very well together.

The problem is that Deadeye was just redesigned to function like this: Stack Malice and then execute a stealth attack for a major advantage. But how should this work if you have no good access to stealth? Like e.g. on Shortbow and Sword/Pistol? So just removing the stealth trait would basically make Rifle no longer really fitting the design (yes, you can use Kneel + Sniper's Cover + Free Action + Death's Retreat but that's ridiculous and you would die trying this against any competent opponent...) which would also be stupid because it's
the
Weapon for Deadeyes...

Also, stealth is the only real defensive mechanic in nearly any Deadeye build. I mean (in WvW at least) you can run Acrobatics over Deadly Arts or Critical Strikes but this will significantly lower your damage (which is what many people want, lowering the burst) and one basically only does this to get more frequent use of Silent Scope anyway. And besides this option there is nothing left: No Rifle-skill has a build-in evade (like S/D), block or any kind of damage mitigation. You don't even have an interrupt, an unblockable attack or a reliable blind...

To sum it up: Most people believe that bringing back the old Silent Scope would fix the problem with high stealth uptime. But it is simple not true... Even before the redesign it was possible to have this amount of stealth. It was basically just better because you had stealth + dodge whenever you need it (at the cost of fluent gameplay)... Now you more or less
waste
energy if you are forced to dodge while Revealed. But that's what most people who just qq don't understand.

I agree that Silent Scope is not the
most broken
mechanic in the game. It is however a mechanic I think most of us can give good commentary/criticism on since I'm assuming the lot of us in this thread are Thief mains.

Stealth is definitely a defensive mechanic as well as an offensive mechanic that is crucial for the Deadeye due to how their Malice expenditure works. They do absolutely need that quick and easy access to stealth. This is why I was glad ANet added a stealth to Deadeye stolen skills (they were borderline useless without it). The issue is that in its current form, there is too much reward for very little risk or investment. It's simply a dumb mechanic that is needlessly frustrating to fight against. Nevermind the fact that the Malice stacking you mentioned doesn't seem to affect the Deadeye the way it should because it is very frequent that they completely ignore its purpose and just outright burst the target from stealth.

I'm also of the opinion that Shadow Arts generally needs to be addressed as it is a key player in the "perma-stealth" issue. I've stated in the past that it is a generally unhealthy traitline that rewards passive gameplay (with the exception of Rending Shade) which ANet generally frowns upon, which is why it is so surprising they haven't touched it. It's in a bizarre limbo where it's useless in some settings but frustrating to fight in others. My point here is I agree with you that this is a multi-faceted issue.

SA needs rework, but it's not mandatory for perms stealth.Main problems with deadeye:
  1. High opening burst.
  2. Easy access to stealth.
  3. Crazy amount of stealth.1st and 3rd point are not bad by themselfs. What makes this combo broken is adding these 2 AND also 2nd point - silent scope, that gives deadeye way to easy reset potential. U just swap to rifle, dodge roll once or twice and reset completely. That's unacceptable to leave this as it is cuz it promotes way to low risk, high reward gameplay.

That pretty much sums up the issue here.

SA is still a poorly balanced trait line though.

This sums up nothing. It just is a list that more or less characterize what defines the current meta: a) have good burst and b) bring enough sustain (and mobility for roaming).

Replace 3 by "Crazy amount of sustain" and you basically have characterized what fighting an engineer feels like... Or replace 3 by "Crazy sustain" and add 4 "Easily apply many boons" and you have described Soulbeast... Oh, how about replacing 3 by "Crazy amount of defensive cds" and add 4 "Ridiculous mobility" and you characterized Mesmer? Should I go on?

This list of so-called "main problems" (for Deadeye) is just a list of things you don't like to deal with and hence just cry for nerfs.

Holos and sb have a balance issues, while deadeye and mirage are just trashly designed(or both of this problems).If u tune down the soul beast or holo fighting them won't be a big problem, while mirage with mirage cloak still will be cancer, and deadeye will still be able to reset in every possible situation, until the mechanics won't be changed.There is a difference between numbers and bad design

And what is the problem if someone resets? You also get out of combat, heal to full hp and your skills come off cd... So no one should really get a huge advantage out of that.

The problem I think they are bringing up as far as reset is that you can make a mistake and not worry about it. Missed a skill? Reset, Got caught and punished? Reset. Someone got the jump on me? Reset.

Issue is if they couldn’t reset no one would play the class. Due to how little damage they can sustain they would have to out play and make zero mistakes every fight to stand a chance at a win in the 1v1 fight.arenet would have to make some changes to make their mistakes a little more forgiving

Yea but DE shouldn't be 1v1ing regardless vs taking out a target quickly. IMHO. I look at pvp differently if I make a mistake I expect to get punished not just reset when I want to if I mess up etc. If a player capitalizes on my misplay then they are the better player. But isn't that how it should be? The player that makes the least mistakes should win. That goes for any game. RTS, FPS, Fighting etc.

I've seen RTS players have flawless opening sequences and still get rushed and rolled up anyway. Thieves do get punished for their mistakes, it's why they stealth or reset, because they can't take as much punishment.

Yea but allowing them to reset promotes bad play. Maybe if you are S/D you do, maybe even D/P, but DE is a whole different level.

No it does not "promote bad gameplay" Reset is part of the defenses a thief has just as other classes have OTHER advantages that allow them to stick in a fight without a reset. I do not have to reset on my warrior as often due to blocks, high incoming heals , higher armor , Endure pain , higher vitality and the like. Just because my warrior can use these things rather then breaking off a fight does not mean I am a better player or play a "healthier style".

Add to that if I have all of these tools in my arsenal to generate my sustain and survivability , I can remain in the fight and NOT allow the enemy a change to get that healt or INI back IF the thief stays in the fight AND if that thief does in fact reset all of my own used skills come off cooldown. I can make a whole pile of mistakes where the thief can not. Add to that a warrior , depending on enemies faced can break off a fight and reset as well. A Common strategy is when in trouble on warrior is to break off , get those skills off cooldown and health rebuilt as you flee, then turn on the pursuing enemy at an opportune time to take him out. I have won fights on my warrior , without dodging or blocking a single attack just due to the high armor and sustain. granted this against poorer players but my thief would never win such a fight if it did not dodge , stealth from or resetting on those same bad players.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with resetting a fight. It a viable strategy and one of the assets a thief has given they like all those other things that allow other classes to stay in a fight and given the fact the thief uses INI over cooldown skills which can lock him out of weapon skills outside #1 for periods of time.

No resetting with a simple dodge(that grants you stealth) or in mesmers case stunbreaks as well is absolutely bad design that promotes bad gameplay. There is a difference you are overlooking. There is healthy resetting and unhealthy(0 consequence resetting). For example D/P Daredevil. If I steal in and miss and have to reset. My options are to shadowstep out, powder out, or black powder and HS to gain stealth. Which means I have to burn a cool down or waste initiative. Then there is unhealthy resetting where I just tap my dodge key and waste nothing other than some endurance which is easily and quickly regenerated.

So maybe not ALL resetting promotes bad gameplay but there are definitely forms of it that do. As I said before resetting on DE is COMPLETELY different than resetting on DD/Core S/D.

It is not "completely different" . First and foremost DE is not just rifle and the only spech you are talking about is Rifle. DE without Rifle has less dodges than Daredevil . My d/p staff Daredevil has a much easier time resetting then my DE P/d build.

DE Rifle without stealth has fewer dodges then DrD no blocks no blinds , no interrupts and no Invuln frames such as one gets with Daggerstorm. The only reset it has is stealth and the build is focused on stealth. Complaining about stealth on DE Rifle WHICH the build designed around is like complaining about dodges on a daredevil. Endurance on a Daredevil is recovered a lot faster than on a DE Rifle and chaining multiple dodges in a row is very effective at avoiding damage and breaking off combat.

Thief has always been able to break off a fight and reset even prior to DE rifle and the same complaints about that ability to reset have been going on for years. Just because DE rifle uses a different method does not make it suddenly bad.

The issue with thief is only indirectly related to stealth on dodge with Rifle specced. It is with camping stealth for long periods of time which has been around for years and is why Ghost Thief caused such QQ. The simplest fix is to reduce the amount of seconds of stealth one gets from a given skill use when one already stealthed. A one second shave would go a long ways here.

There is nothing easier than resetting by pressing a dodge key and getting stealth. You literally remove yourself from the fight instantly without wasting a major cool down or initiative.

No I am talking about just DE in general. Most of the points you made are mute because the DE build in pvp runs dagger storm and also runs signet of agility. Just because DrD has one extra dodge doesn't mean anything. Especially when that dodge effect has a drawback(exhaustion) where as Silent Scope doesn't. It is also a flat buff to all weapon sets and an extra buff to rifle. DE Rile never runs without stealth so again your point is moot.

You are correct thief has always been able to break off but not without spending a cooldown or using initiative. Endurance is such an easily regened resource there are no drawbacks to it.

Ghost thief in WvW also required that you cycle through traps to stack up the stealth.

No that isn't the solution. You would be nerfing other thief specs indirectly for a single case. No one has an issue with D/P stealth. No one has an issue with S/D. People STRICTLY have an issue with how easy it is for silent scope. The easiest fix is to give it either an ICD or exhaustion just like they did with dash.

No DE build has stealth on dodge except Rifle so how on earth can you state can you say it an issue with DE in general then in the next breath talk about silent scope! If I am not in rifle I do not get stealth on dodge because I am not taking silent scope. The only stealth I get without rifle is from Smeld IF traited and pressing a button to stealth with SMELD is not any easier then pressing a button to get stealth via Blinding powder. My P/d build using DE does not take silent scope. My power s/p build using DE does not take silent scope. Silenst scope is useless because it only works with Rifle and I do not take rifle.

As to an extra dodge not meaning anything , why on Earth even take Daredevil were that the case? It a huge advantage and is more then just one extra dodge as it adds a dodge on steal as well. Those extra dodges can allow a d/p thief to wreck the DE Rifle thief.

Stealth does NOT remove you from a fight. I am not sure you even play thief when you make that claim. You can still take damage. Your healing is compromised by being considered in fight. You can still be stunned , subjected to AOE , cleave and killed by channles such as a ranger Rapid fire and the like. If I am on a DE rifle I can kill another thief on DE rifle that just stealthed.

As to ghost thief. No you did NOT need to cycle through traps to build that stealth. You could camp stealth wihout using trappers runes and trappers runes was the only way you got stealth on setting a trap. Go back to that topic and i pointed out many times how it was easy to do without Runes of the trapper. I can go on daredevil now and permastealth.

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Exitus.3297

Exitus.3297

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@syszery.1592 said:

@"omgdracula.6345" said:People in here really trying to defend stealth on dodge?
That is the single most broken mechanic I have seen.
You are literally defending something that has no cooldown other than your stamina limitation that gives extreme benefits to the user. Hell it doesn't even have an ICD.

Ok, you must be pretty new to this game, right? a) Stamina is a real restriction and b) Mirage Cloak (1s dodge + can be used while stunned), Soulbeast boon stacking (in particular the damage+sustain resulting from this), Rampage and Holosmith are all perfectly balanced, right?

Yes, Endurance is a restriction. But when you have 3-4 seconds of stealth per dodge to stall the fight, with plenty of ways to increase the flow of Endurance, one has to ask how restrictive it actually is when implemented in this way.

I also find it interesting that you point out that Endurance has restrictions, just to use Mirage Cloak as a counter-example to back up your point when it is also limited to Endurance. Is Mirage Cloak too strong in its current implementation or not? I can imagine you might be equally annoyed by someone arguing "Well, it's limited to Endurance so it's balanced" in order to defend it. Keep in mind, I am fully aware of how frustrating it is to fight a Mirage as any class besides a Thief.

But I digress. Your counter-argument seems to be "These classes over here are equally if not more unbalanced." Perhaps you are correct, but it is irrelevant to this discussion. Each of the classes mentioned have their own threads/discussions on what to do with them.

I didn't mean to give counter examples. I was just referring to the claim that Silent Scope would be
"the single most broken mechanic"
in the game. That's why I mentioned e.g. Mirage Cloak which is in my opinion at least as strong as Stealth on Dodge. But I agree that mentioning Souldbeast and Holosmith is problematic, because it's not one mechanic that makes them so good atm but several skills that functions very well together.

The problem is that Deadeye was just redesigned to function like this: Stack Malice and then execute a stealth attack for a major advantage. But how should this work if you have no good access to stealth? Like e.g. on Shortbow and Sword/Pistol? So just removing the stealth trait would basically make Rifle no longer really fitting the design (yes, you can use Kneel + Sniper's Cover + Free Action + Death's Retreat but that's ridiculous and you would die trying this against any competent opponent...) which would also be stupid because it's
the
Weapon for Deadeyes...

Also, stealth is the only real defensive mechanic in nearly any Deadeye build. I mean (in WvW at least) you can run Acrobatics over Deadly Arts or Critical Strikes but this will significantly lower your damage (which is what many people want, lowering the burst) and one basically only does this to get more frequent use of Silent Scope anyway. And besides this option there is nothing left: No Rifle-skill has a build-in evade (like S/D), block or any kind of damage mitigation. You don't even have an interrupt, an unblockable attack or a reliable blind...

To sum it up: Most people believe that bringing back the old Silent Scope would fix the problem with high stealth uptime. But it is simple not true... Even before the redesign it was possible to have this amount of stealth. It was basically just better because you had stealth + dodge whenever you need it (at the cost of fluent gameplay)... Now you more or less
waste
energy if you are forced to dodge while Revealed. But that's what most people who just qq don't understand.

I agree that Silent Scope is not the
most broken
mechanic in the game. It is however a mechanic I think most of us can give good commentary/criticism on since I'm assuming the lot of us in this thread are Thief mains.

Stealth is definitely a defensive mechanic as well as an offensive mechanic that is crucial for the Deadeye due to how their Malice expenditure works. They do absolutely need that quick and easy access to stealth. This is why I was glad ANet added a stealth to Deadeye stolen skills (they were borderline useless without it). The issue is that in its current form, there is too much reward for very little risk or investment. It's simply a dumb mechanic that is needlessly frustrating to fight against. Nevermind the fact that the Malice stacking you mentioned doesn't seem to affect the Deadeye the way it should because it is very frequent that they completely ignore its purpose and just outright burst the target from stealth.

I'm also of the opinion that Shadow Arts generally needs to be addressed as it is a key player in the "perma-stealth" issue. I've stated in the past that it is a generally unhealthy traitline that rewards passive gameplay (with the exception of Rending Shade) which ANet generally frowns upon, which is why it is so surprising they haven't touched it. It's in a bizarre limbo where it's useless in some settings but frustrating to fight in others. My point here is I agree with you that this is a multi-faceted issue.

SA needs rework, but it's not mandatory for perms stealth.Main problems with deadeye:
  1. High opening burst.
  2. Easy access to stealth.
  3. Crazy amount of stealth.1st and 3rd point are not bad by themselfs. What makes this combo broken is adding these 2 AND also 2nd point - silent scope, that gives deadeye way to easy reset potential. U just swap to rifle, dodge roll once or twice and reset completely. That's unacceptable to leave this as it is cuz it promotes way to low risk, high reward gameplay.

That pretty much sums up the issue here.

SA is still a poorly balanced trait line though.

This sums up nothing. It just is a list that more or less characterize what defines the current meta: a) have good burst and b) bring enough sustain (and mobility for roaming).

Replace 3 by "Crazy amount of sustain" and you basically have characterized what fighting an engineer feels like... Or replace 3 by "Crazy sustain" and add 4 "Easily apply many boons" and you have described Soulbeast... Oh, how about replacing 3 by "Crazy amount of defensive cds" and add 4 "Ridiculous mobility" and you characterized Mesmer? Should I go on?

This list of so-called "main problems" (for Deadeye) is just a list of things you don't like to deal with and hence just cry for nerfs.

Again, your argument is "these classes over here are just as stupid so it's okay if the Deadeye has stupid mechanics too." I agree that these classes have issues as well. It doesn't justify the Deadeye to also have stupid mechanics of its own, especially when ANet seems to have a tendency to punish all Thieves for 1 spec being overbearing. Go to the other forums, assuming you haven't already, and bring it up with them. I'll watch as you get just as frustrated when they try to justify obviously bad mechanics and/or tuning. One thing I can guarantee that Holosmiths in particular will bring up is the fact that they can't stack stealth anywhere near the same level the Deadeye can, so the the amount of utility they have is justified. They will likely argue that they are walking targets if they don't have those stupid mechanics to protect them, and they may even have a point.

Yes, the list of "main problems" are things I and several other people don't like to deal with because we do not believe it is reasonable to deal with. What kind of argument is that? That is like saying you "you don't like this meal which is why you don't want to eat it." Well, obviously, but the issue almost entirely depends on why you don't think you should have to deal with it. Is the food rancid, or are you just a picky eater? If it is a stupid mechanic, people aren't going to like it. The question isn't whether or not people "like it." The question is whether or not they are justified to not like it and call for nerfs. If you don't think a change is justified, provide an argument that doesn't include "these classes over here are just as stupid." Imagine if a Holosmith justified the poorly designed mechanics you keep referencing by saying that Deadeye mechanics are also poorly designed. Or the Mirage is poorly designed. Or the Soulbeast is poorly designed. It goes nowhere.

The issue I was trying to address when I created the thread was to provide a list of examples, admittedly not even good ones, to specifically address the Perma-stealth 1-shot Deadeye. They are a problem, and other players are already screaming "nurf it into the ground." I'm trying to beat them to the punch. I don't want nerfs. I want trades. I would be more than happy to see Deadeyes get a buff in other places if the frustrating aspects of their kits get dealt with. If the frustrating aspects of their kit get dealt with, it will be enough to at least bring down the number of cries for nerfs. I'm a Thief main. I have zero desire to see Thieves nerfed even more without something in return.

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Psycoprophet.8107

Psycoprophet.8107

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Not only is it questionable how arenet with the experience they have they in any way were so absent minded(to put it nicely) to make a spec like DE in a game offers pvp modes lol I wonder what other developers or balance teams would say if they saw the state of DE,mirage and soulbeast compared to the states of other classes. Another question is what kind of player finds DE enjoyable to play?children? Or players who are such low skill at playing mmo’s they have to resort to perma cheese one shots lol I’d be embarrassed to be running around as a DE haha

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omgdracula.6345

omgdracula.6345

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@babazhook.6805 said:

@omgdracula.6345 said:People in here really trying to defend stealth on dodge?
That is the single most broken mechanic I have seen.
You are literally defending something that has no cooldown other than your stamina limitation that gives extreme benefits to the user. Hell it doesn't even have an ICD.

Ok, you must be pretty new to this game, right? a) Stamina is a real restriction and b) Mirage Cloak (1s dodge + can be used while stunned), Soulbeast boon stacking (in particular the damage+sustain resulting from this), Rampage and Holosmith are all perfectly balanced, right?

Yes, Endurance is a restriction. But when you have 3-4 seconds of stealth per dodge to stall the fight, with plenty of ways to increase the flow of Endurance, one has to ask how restrictive it actually is when implemented in this way.

I also find it interesting that you point out that Endurance has restrictions, just to use Mirage Cloak as a counter-example to back up your point when it is also limited to Endurance. Is Mirage Cloak too strong in its current implementation or not? I can imagine you might be equally annoyed by someone arguing "Well, it's limited to Endurance so it's balanced" in order to defend it. Keep in mind, I am fully aware of how frustrating it is to fight a Mirage as any class besides a Thief.

But I digress. Your counter-argument seems to be "These classes over here are equally if not more unbalanced." Perhaps you are correct, but it is irrelevant to this discussion. Each of the classes mentioned have their own threads/discussions on what to do with them.

I didn't mean to give counter examples. I was just referring to the claim that Silent Scope would be
"the single most broken mechanic"
in the game. That's why I mentioned e.g. Mirage Cloak which is in my opinion at least as strong as Stealth on Dodge. But I agree that mentioning Souldbeast and Holosmith is problematic, because it's not one mechanic that makes them so good atm but several skills that functions very well together.

The problem is that Deadeye was just redesigned to function like this: Stack Malice and then execute a stealth attack for a major advantage. But how should this work if you have no good access to stealth? Like e.g. on Shortbow and Sword/Pistol? So just removing the stealth trait would basically make Rifle no longer really fitting the design (yes, you can use Kneel + Sniper's Cover + Free Action + Death's Retreat but that's ridiculous and you would die trying this against any competent opponent...) which would also be stupid because it's
the
Weapon for Deadeyes...

Also, stealth is the only real defensive mechanic in nearly any Deadeye build. I mean (in WvW at least) you can run Acrobatics over Deadly Arts or Critical Strikes but this will significantly lower your damage (which is what many people want, lowering the burst) and one basically only does this to get more frequent use of Silent Scope anyway. And besides this option there is nothing left: No Rifle-skill has a build-in evade (like S/D), block or any kind of damage mitigation. You don't even have an interrupt, an unblockable attack or a reliable blind...

To sum it up: Most people believe that bringing back the old Silent Scope would fix the problem with high stealth uptime. But it is simple not true... Even before the redesign it was possible to have this amount of stealth. It was basically just better because you had stealth + dodge whenever you need it (at the cost of fluent gameplay)... Now you more or less
waste
energy if you are forced to dodge while Revealed. But that's what most people who just qq don't understand.

I agree that Silent Scope is not the
most broken
mechanic in the game. It is however a mechanic I think most of us can give good commentary/criticism on since I'm assuming the lot of us in this thread are Thief mains.

Stealth is definitely a defensive mechanic as well as an offensive mechanic that is crucial for the Deadeye due to how their Malice expenditure works. They do absolutely need that quick and easy access to stealth. This is why I was glad ANet added a stealth to Deadeye stolen skills (they were borderline useless without it). The issue is that in its current form, there is too much reward for very little risk or investment. It's simply a dumb mechanic that is needlessly frustrating to fight against. Nevermind the fact that the Malice stacking you mentioned doesn't seem to affect the Deadeye the way it should because it is very frequent that they completely ignore its purpose and just outright burst the target from stealth.

I'm also of the opinion that Shadow Arts generally needs to be addressed as it is a key player in the "perma-stealth" issue. I've stated in the past that it is a generally unhealthy traitline that rewards passive gameplay (with the exception of Rending Shade) which ANet generally frowns upon, which is why it is so surprising they haven't touched it. It's in a bizarre limbo where it's useless in some settings but frustrating to fight in others. My point here is I agree with you that this is a multi-faceted issue.

SA needs rework, but it's not mandatory for perms stealth.Main problems with deadeye:
  1. High opening burst.
  2. Easy access to stealth.
  3. Crazy amount of stealth.1st and 3rd point are not bad by themselfs. What makes this combo broken is adding these 2 AND also 2nd point - silent scope, that gives deadeye way to easy reset potential. U just swap to rifle, dodge roll once or twice and reset completely. That's unacceptable to leave this as it is cuz it promotes way to low risk, high reward gameplay.

That pretty much sums up the issue here.

SA is still a poorly balanced trait line though.

This sums up nothing. It just is a list that more or less characterize what defines the current meta: a) have good burst and b) bring enough sustain (and mobility for roaming).

Replace 3 by "Crazy amount of sustain" and you basically have characterized what fighting an engineer feels like... Or replace 3 by "Crazy sustain" and add 4 "Easily apply many boons" and you have described Soulbeast... Oh, how about replacing 3 by "Crazy amount of defensive cds" and add 4 "Ridiculous mobility" and you characterized Mesmer? Should I go on?

This list of so-called "main problems" (for Deadeye) is just a list of things you don't like to deal with and hence just cry for nerfs.

Holos and sb have a balance issues, while deadeye and mirage are just trashly designed(or both of this problems).If u tune down the soul beast or holo fighting them won't be a big problem, while mirage with mirage cloak still will be cancer, and deadeye will still be able to reset in every possible situation, until the mechanics won't be changed.There is a difference between numbers and bad design

And what is the problem if someone resets? You also get out of combat, heal to full hp and your skills come off cd... So no one should really get a huge advantage out of that.

The problem I think they are bringing up as far as reset is that you can make a mistake and not worry about it. Missed a skill? Reset, Got caught and punished? Reset. Someone got the jump on me? Reset.

Issue is if they couldn’t reset no one would play the class. Due to how little damage they can sustain they would have to out play and make zero mistakes every fight to stand a chance at a win in the 1v1 fight.arenet would have to make some changes to make their mistakes a little more forgiving

Yea but DE shouldn't be 1v1ing regardless vs taking out a target quickly. IMHO. I look at pvp differently if I make a mistake I expect to get punished not just reset when I want to if I mess up etc. If a player capitalizes on my misplay then they are the better player. But isn't that how it should be? The player that makes the least mistakes should win. That goes for any game. RTS, FPS, Fighting etc.

I've seen RTS players have flawless opening sequences and still get rushed and rolled up anyway. Thieves do get punished for their mistakes, it's why they stealth or reset, because they can't take as much punishment.

Yea but allowing them to reset promotes bad play. Maybe if you are S/D you do, maybe even D/P, but DE is a whole different level.

No it does not "promote bad gameplay" Reset is part of the defenses a thief has just as other classes have OTHER advantages that allow them to stick in a fight without a reset. I do not have to reset on my warrior as often due to blocks, high incoming heals , higher armor , Endure pain , higher vitality and the like. Just because my warrior can use these things rather then breaking off a fight does not mean I am a better player or play a "healthier style".

Add to that if I have all of these tools in my arsenal to generate my sustain and survivability , I can remain in the fight and NOT allow the enemy a change to get that healt or INI back IF the thief stays in the fight AND if that thief does in fact reset all of my own used skills come off cooldown. I can make a whole pile of mistakes where the thief can not. Add to that a warrior , depending on enemies faced can break off a fight and reset as well. A Common strategy is when in trouble on warrior is to break off , get those skills off cooldown and health rebuilt as you flee, then turn on the pursuing enemy at an opportune time to take him out. I have won fights on my warrior , without dodging or blocking a single attack just due to the high armor and sustain. granted this against poorer players but my thief would never win such a fight if it did not dodge , stealth from or resetting on those same bad players.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with resetting a fight. It a viable strategy and one of the assets a thief has given they like all those other things that allow other classes to stay in a fight and given the fact the thief uses INI over cooldown skills which can lock him out of weapon skills outside #1 for periods of time.

No resetting with a simple dodge(that grants you stealth) or in mesmers case stunbreaks as well is absolutely bad design that promotes bad gameplay. There is a difference you are overlooking. There is healthy resetting and unhealthy(0 consequence resetting). For example D/P Daredevil. If I steal in and miss and have to reset. My options are to shadowstep out, powder out, or black powder and HS to gain stealth. Which means I have to burn a cool down or waste initiative. Then there is unhealthy resetting where I just tap my dodge key and waste nothing other than some endurance which is easily and quickly regenerated.

So maybe not ALL resetting promotes bad gameplay but there are definitely forms of it that do. As I said before resetting on DE is COMPLETELY different than resetting on DD/Core S/D.

It is not "completely different" . First and foremost DE is not just rifle and the only spech you are talking about is Rifle. DE without Rifle has less dodges than Daredevil . My d/p staff Daredevil has a much easier time resetting then my DE P/d build.

DE Rifle without stealth has fewer dodges then DrD no blocks no blinds , no interrupts and no Invuln frames such as one gets with Daggerstorm. The only reset it has is stealth and the build is focused on stealth. Complaining about stealth on DE Rifle WHICH the build designed around is like complaining about dodges on a daredevil. Endurance on a Daredevil is recovered a lot faster than on a DE Rifle and chaining multiple dodges in a row is very effective at avoiding damage and breaking off combat.

Thief has always been able to break off a fight and reset even prior to DE rifle and the same complaints about that ability to reset have been going on for years. Just because DE rifle uses a different method does not make it suddenly bad.

The issue with thief is only indirectly related to stealth on dodge with Rifle specced. It is with camping stealth for long periods of time which has been around for years and is why Ghost Thief caused such QQ. The simplest fix is to reduce the amount of seconds of stealth one gets from a given skill use when one already stealthed. A one second shave would go a long ways here.

There is nothing easier than resetting by pressing a dodge key and getting stealth. You literally remove yourself from the fight instantly without wasting a major cool down or initiative.

No I am talking about just DE in general. Most of the points you made are mute because the DE build in pvp runs dagger storm and also runs signet of agility. Just because DrD has one extra dodge doesn't mean anything. Especially when that dodge effect has a drawback(exhaustion) where as Silent Scope doesn't. It is also a flat buff to all weapon sets and an extra buff to rifle. DE Rile never runs without stealth so again your point is moot.

You are correct thief has always been able to break off but not without spending a cooldown or using initiative. Endurance is such an easily regened resource there are no drawbacks to it.

Ghost thief in WvW also required that you cycle through traps to stack up the stealth.

No that isn't the solution. You would be nerfing other thief specs indirectly for a single case. No one has an issue with D/P stealth. No one has an issue with S/D. People STRICTLY have an issue with how easy it is for silent scope. The easiest fix is to give it either an ICD or exhaustion just like they did with dash.

No DE build has stealth on dodge except Rifle so how on earth can you state can you say it an issue with DE in general then in the next breath talk about silent scope! If I am not in rifle I do not get stealth on dodge because I am not taking silent scope. The only stealth I get without rifle is from Smeld IF traited and pressing a button to stealth with SMELD is not any easier then pressing a button to get stealth via Blinding powder. My P/d build using DE does not take silent scope. My power s/p build using DE does not take silent scope. Silenst scope is useless because it only works with Rifle and I do not take rifle.

As to an extra dodge not meaning anything , why on Earth even take Daredevil were that the case? It a huge advantage and is more then just one extra dodge as it adds a dodge on steal as well. Those extra dodges can allow a d/p thief to wreck the DE Rifle thief.

Stealth does NOT remove you from a fight. I am not sure you even play thief when you make that claim. You can still take damage. Your healing is compromised by being considered in fight. You can still be stunned , subjected to AOE , cleave and killed by channles such as a ranger Rapid fire and the like. If I am on a DE rifle I can kill another thief on DE rifle that just stealthed.

As to ghost thief. No you did NOT need to cycle through traps to build that stealth. You could camp stealth wihout using trappers runes and trappers runes was the only way you got stealth on setting a trap. Go back to that topic and i pointed out many times how it was easy to do without Runes of the trapper. I can go on daredevil now and permastealth.

You literally swap to file as part of rotation so yea you will definitely have stealth on dodge. But it is cute that you keep trying to make points which actually aren't really points. You only get stealth with rifle! Yea, and? If you're running DE chances are you have rifle with either D/P or S/D as your alternate weapon set. You end your rotation with rifle so if you screw up. Guess what? You get stealth on dodge!

Yea you take damage in stealth, but again if you are using your rifle, you are at range and can stealth out, or even juke with stealth. The only way you die when using stealth to disengage if you are bad at juking or your enemy predicts your movements which shouldn't happen if you are good at juking them. Getting hit in stealth is purely hypothetical, chances are you will be able to safely disengage. Especially using rifle 4 and curing condis as well. EZ PZ.

Okay again you completely glance over the point I made about why Stealth on dodge is bad design and that is because it comes at literally 0 cost to you. Can you perma stealth with daredevil? yea. By wasting all your initiative stacking it. DE you can literally swap to a rifle or just get stealth for literally free. WITH 0 drawback versus say Dash on thief if you clear conditions with unhindered combatant you get exhaustion.

There is literally 0 draw back to silent scope. So you have to have a rifle equipped? I already stated why that is not even a valid point. Since chances are you are running rifle with whatever second weapon set you want.

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syszery.1592

syszery.1592

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@Exitus.3297 said:

@"omgdracula.6345" said:People in here really trying to defend stealth on dodge?
That is the single most broken mechanic I have seen.
You are literally defending something that has no cooldown other than your stamina limitation that gives extreme benefits to the user. Hell it doesn't even have an ICD.

Ok, you must be pretty new to this game, right? a) Stamina is a real restriction and b) Mirage Cloak (1s dodge + can be used while stunned), Soulbeast boon stacking (in particular the damage+sustain resulting from this), Rampage and Holosmith are all perfectly balanced, right?

Yes, Endurance is a restriction. But when you have 3-4 seconds of stealth per dodge to stall the fight, with plenty of ways to increase the flow of Endurance, one has to ask how restrictive it actually is when implemented in this way.

I also find it interesting that you point out that Endurance has restrictions, just to use Mirage Cloak as a counter-example to back up your point when it is also limited to Endurance. Is Mirage Cloak too strong in its current implementation or not? I can imagine you might be equally annoyed by someone arguing "Well, it's limited to Endurance so it's balanced" in order to defend it. Keep in mind, I am fully aware of how frustrating it is to fight a Mirage as any class besides a Thief.

But I digress. Your counter-argument seems to be "These classes over here are equally if not more unbalanced." Perhaps you are correct, but it is irrelevant to this discussion. Each of the classes mentioned have their own threads/discussions on what to do with them.

I didn't mean to give counter examples. I was just referring to the claim that Silent Scope would be
"the single most broken mechanic"
in the game. That's why I mentioned e.g. Mirage Cloak which is in my opinion at least as strong as Stealth on Dodge. But I agree that mentioning Souldbeast and Holosmith is problematic, because it's not one mechanic that makes them so good atm but several skills that functions very well together.

The problem is that Deadeye was just redesigned to function like this: Stack Malice and then execute a stealth attack for a major advantage. But how should this work if you have no good access to stealth? Like e.g. on Shortbow and Sword/Pistol? So just removing the stealth trait would basically make Rifle no longer really fitting the design (yes, you can use Kneel + Sniper's Cover + Free Action + Death's Retreat but that's ridiculous and you would die trying this against any competent opponent...) which would also be stupid because it's
the
Weapon for Deadeyes...

Also, stealth is the only real defensive mechanic in nearly any Deadeye build. I mean (in WvW at least) you can run Acrobatics over Deadly Arts or Critical Strikes but this will significantly lower your damage (which is what many people want, lowering the burst) and one basically only does this to get more frequent use of Silent Scope anyway. And besides this option there is nothing left: No Rifle-skill has a build-in evade (like S/D), block or any kind of damage mitigation. You don't even have an interrupt, an unblockable attack or a reliable blind...

To sum it up: Most people believe that bringing back the old Silent Scope would fix the problem with high stealth uptime. But it is simple not true... Even before the redesign it was possible to have this amount of stealth. It was basically just better because you had stealth + dodge whenever you need it (at the cost of fluent gameplay)... Now you more or less
waste
energy if you are forced to dodge while Revealed. But that's what most people who just qq don't understand.

I agree that Silent Scope is not the
most broken
mechanic in the game. It is however a mechanic I think most of us can give good commentary/criticism on since I'm assuming the lot of us in this thread are Thief mains.

Stealth is definitely a defensive mechanic as well as an offensive mechanic that is crucial for the Deadeye due to how their Malice expenditure works. They do absolutely need that quick and easy access to stealth. This is why I was glad ANet added a stealth to Deadeye stolen skills (they were borderline useless without it). The issue is that in its current form, there is too much reward for very little risk or investment. It's simply a dumb mechanic that is needlessly frustrating to fight against. Nevermind the fact that the Malice stacking you mentioned doesn't seem to affect the Deadeye the way it should because it is very frequent that they completely ignore its purpose and just outright burst the target from stealth.

I'm also of the opinion that Shadow Arts generally needs to be addressed as it is a key player in the "perma-stealth" issue. I've stated in the past that it is a generally unhealthy traitline that rewards passive gameplay (with the exception of Rending Shade) which ANet generally frowns upon, which is why it is so surprising they haven't touched it. It's in a bizarre limbo where it's useless in some settings but frustrating to fight in others. My point here is I agree with you that this is a multi-faceted issue.

SA needs rework, but it's not mandatory for perms stealth.Main problems with deadeye:
  1. High opening burst.
  2. Easy access to stealth.
  3. Crazy amount of stealth.1st and 3rd point are not bad by themselfs. What makes this combo broken is adding these 2 AND also 2nd point - silent scope, that gives deadeye way to easy reset potential. U just swap to rifle, dodge roll once or twice and reset completely. That's unacceptable to leave this as it is cuz it promotes way to low risk, high reward gameplay.

That pretty much sums up the issue here.

SA is still a poorly balanced trait line though.

This sums up nothing. It just is a list that more or less characterize what defines the current meta: a) have good burst and b) bring enough sustain (and mobility for roaming).

Replace 3 by "Crazy amount of sustain" and you basically have characterized what fighting an engineer feels like... Or replace 3 by "Crazy sustain" and add 4 "Easily apply many boons" and you have described Soulbeast... Oh, how about replacing 3 by "Crazy amount of defensive cds" and add 4 "Ridiculous mobility" and you characterized Mesmer? Should I go on?

This list of so-called "main problems" (for Deadeye) is just a list of things you don't like to deal with and hence just cry for nerfs.

Again, your argument is "these classes over here are just as stupid so it's okay if the Deadeye has stupid mechanics too." I agree that these classes have issues as well. It doesn't justify the Deadeye to also have stupid mechanics of its own, especially when ANet seems to have a tendency to punish all Thieves for 1 spec being overbearing. Go to the other forums, assuming you haven't already, and bring it up with them. I'll watch as you get just as frustrated when they try to justify obviously bad mechanics and/or tuning. One thing I can guarantee that Holosmiths in particular will bring up is the fact that they can't stack stealth anywhere near the same level the Deadeye can, so the the amount of utility they have is justified. They will likely argue that they are walking targets if they don't have those stupid mechanics to protect them, and they may even have a point.

Yes, the list of "main problems" are things I and several other people don't like to deal with because we do not believe it is reasonable to deal with. What kind of argument is that? That is like saying you "you don't like this meal which is why you don't want to eat it." Well, obviously, but the issue almost entirely depends on
why
you don't think you should have to deal with it. Is the food rancid, or are you just a picky eater? If it is a stupid mechanic, people aren't going to like it. The question isn't whether or not people "like it." The question is whether or not they are justified to not like it and call for nerfs. If you don't think a change is justified, provide an argument that doesn't include "these classes over here are just as stupid." Imagine if a Holosmith justified the poorly designed mechanics you keep referencing by saying that Deadeye mechanics are also poorly designed. Or the Mirage is poorly designed. Or the Soulbeast is poorly designed. It goes nowhere.

The issue I was trying to address when I created the thread was to provide a list of examples, admittedly not even good ones, to specifically address the Perma-stealth 1-shot Deadeye. They are a problem, and other players are already screaming "nurf it into the ground." I'm trying to beat them to the punch. I don't want nerfs. I want trades. I would be more than happy to see Deadeyes get a buff in other places if the frustrating aspects of their kits get dealt with. If the frustrating aspects of their kit get dealt with, it will be enough to at least bring down the number of cries for nerfs. I'm a Thief main. I have zero desire to see Thieves nerfed even more without something in return.

I never complained about any other class. The game is as it is and I can either play it or take a break. I just pointed out that the whole meta is like this: Incredible burst and ridiculous sustain (and some classes get awesome mobility on top). I mentioned Soulbeast and Mirage as examples. And just calling something "stupid" or "dumb" doesn't make a valid and convincing argument.

Besides the fact that there is counter play to dodge, e.g. Weakness and counter play to stealth (namely Revealed - and Shadow Meld can be interrupted since it has a .5s casting time) perma-stealth isn't tied to Deadeye. A Daredevil can get similar stealth uptime even without Shadow Arts (thanks to Bounding Dodger) and backstab for the same amount of damage. Thus 1-shot plus high stealth uptime will not leave the game if Deadeye would be reworked (again) or Shadow Arts...

Silent Scope shouldn't get Exhausted because similar traits also don't apply Exhausted every time you dodge: Elusive Mind only if you actually break a stun (and it already adds the condition cleans on dodge) and Dash gives you Swiftness and more mobility (and only adds Exhausted if it removes a condition). Also, if compared to Daredevil and S/D core, Deadeye has poor mobility and less energy regeneration/dodges (and no evade skill on Rifle). So, if you remove the Stealth you need to compensate, otherwise Deadeye would have hardly any defense at all. And adding more mobility or more evades would a) not fit the theme of the Deadeye/Sniper (which is probably ok for most players) but b) would probably make the specialization even more annoying to fight/ stronger and definitely benefit good players much more. So the QQ wouldn't stop...

The only suggestion left, is adding an internal CD to the Trait. But since it is already tied to you energy (i.e. there is a limiting factor) and double dodge is usually not beneficial I don't know if this would change anything at all or make it more pleasant to fight. Maybe Sigil of Energy should also be nerf'ed in WvW (like in PvP)? That would at least affect all the Traits that are linked to energy/dodge...

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babazhook.6805

babazhook.6805

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@omgdracula.6345 said:

@omgdracula.6345 said:People in here really trying to defend stealth on dodge?
That is the single most broken mechanic I have seen.
You are literally defending something that has no cooldown other than your stamina limitation that gives extreme benefits to the user. Hell it doesn't even have an ICD.

Ok, you must be pretty new to this game, right? a) Stamina is a real restriction and b) Mirage Cloak (1s dodge + can be used while stunned), Soulbeast boon stacking (in particular the damage+sustain resulting from this), Rampage and Holosmith are all perfectly balanced, right?

Yes, Endurance is a restriction. But when you have 3-4 seconds of stealth per dodge to stall the fight, with plenty of ways to increase the flow of Endurance, one has to ask how restrictive it actually is when implemented in this way.

I also find it interesting that you point out that Endurance has restrictions, just to use Mirage Cloak as a counter-example to back up your point when it is also limited to Endurance. Is Mirage Cloak too strong in its current implementation or not? I can imagine you might be equally annoyed by someone arguing "Well, it's limited to Endurance so it's balanced" in order to defend it. Keep in mind, I am fully aware of how frustrating it is to fight a Mirage as any class besides a Thief.

But I digress. Your counter-argument seems to be "These classes over here are equally if not more unbalanced." Perhaps you are correct, but it is irrelevant to this discussion. Each of the classes mentioned have their own threads/discussions on what to do with them.

I didn't mean to give counter examples. I was just referring to the claim that Silent Scope would be
"the single most broken mechanic"
in the game. That's why I mentioned e.g. Mirage Cloak which is in my opinion at least as strong as Stealth on Dodge. But I agree that mentioning Souldbeast and Holosmith is problematic, because it's not one mechanic that makes them so good atm but several skills that functions very well together.

The problem is that Deadeye was just redesigned to function like this: Stack Malice and then execute a stealth attack for a major advantage. But how should this work if you have no good access to stealth? Like e.g. on Shortbow and Sword/Pistol? So just removing the stealth trait would basically make Rifle no longer really fitting the design (yes, you can use Kneel + Sniper's Cover + Free Action + Death's Retreat but that's ridiculous and you would die trying this against any competent opponent...) which would also be stupid because it's
the
Weapon for Deadeyes...

Also, stealth is the only real defensive mechanic in nearly any Deadeye build. I mean (in WvW at least) you can run Acrobatics over Deadly Arts or Critical Strikes but this will significantly lower your damage (which is what many people want, lowering the burst) and one basically only does this to get more frequent use of Silent Scope anyway. And besides this option there is nothing left: No Rifle-skill has a build-in evade (like S/D), block or any kind of damage mitigation. You don't even have an interrupt, an unblockable attack or a reliable blind...

To sum it up: Most people believe that bringing back the old Silent Scope would fix the problem with high stealth uptime. But it is simple not true... Even before the redesign it was possible to have this amount of stealth. It was basically just better because you had stealth + dodge whenever you need it (at the cost of fluent gameplay)... Now you more or less
waste
energy if you are forced to dodge while Revealed. But that's what most people who just qq don't understand.

I agree that Silent Scope is not the
most broken
mechanic in the game. It is however a mechanic I think most of us can give good commentary/criticism on since I'm assuming the lot of us in this thread are Thief mains.

Stealth is definitely a defensive mechanic as well as an offensive mechanic that is crucial for the Deadeye due to how their Malice expenditure works. They do absolutely need that quick and easy access to stealth. This is why I was glad ANet added a stealth to Deadeye stolen skills (they were borderline useless without it). The issue is that in its current form, there is too much reward for very little risk or investment. It's simply a dumb mechanic that is needlessly frustrating to fight against. Nevermind the fact that the Malice stacking you mentioned doesn't seem to affect the Deadeye the way it should because it is very frequent that they completely ignore its purpose and just outright burst the target from stealth.

I'm also of the opinion that Shadow Arts generally needs to be addressed as it is a key player in the "perma-stealth" issue. I've stated in the past that it is a generally unhealthy traitline that rewards passive gameplay (with the exception of Rending Shade) which ANet generally frowns upon, which is why it is so surprising they haven't touched it. It's in a bizarre limbo where it's useless in some settings but frustrating to fight in others. My point here is I agree with you that this is a multi-faceted issue.

SA needs rework, but it's not mandatory for perms stealth.Main problems with deadeye:
  1. High opening burst.
  2. Easy access to stealth.
  3. Crazy amount of stealth.1st and 3rd point are not bad by themselfs. What makes this combo broken is adding these 2 AND also 2nd point - silent scope, that gives deadeye way to easy reset potential. U just swap to rifle, dodge roll once or twice and reset completely. That's unacceptable to leave this as it is cuz it promotes way to low risk, high reward gameplay.

That pretty much sums up the issue here.

SA is still a poorly balanced trait line though.

This sums up nothing. It just is a list that more or less characterize what defines the current meta: a) have good burst and b) bring enough sustain (and mobility for roaming).

Replace 3 by "Crazy amount of sustain" and you basically have characterized what fighting an engineer feels like... Or replace 3 by "Crazy sustain" and add 4 "Easily apply many boons" and you have described Soulbeast... Oh, how about replacing 3 by "Crazy amount of defensive cds" and add 4 "Ridiculous mobility" and you characterized Mesmer? Should I go on?

This list of so-called "main problems" (for Deadeye) is just a list of things you don't like to deal with and hence just cry for nerfs.

Holos and sb have a balance issues, while deadeye and mirage are just trashly designed(or both of this problems).If u tune down the soul beast or holo fighting them won't be a big problem, while mirage with mirage cloak still will be cancer, and deadeye will still be able to reset in every possible situation, until the mechanics won't be changed.There is a difference between numbers and bad design

And what is the problem if someone resets? You also get out of combat, heal to full hp and your skills come off cd... So no one should really get a huge advantage out of that.

The problem I think they are bringing up as far as reset is that you can make a mistake and not worry about it. Missed a skill? Reset, Got caught and punished? Reset. Someone got the jump on me? Reset.

Issue is if they couldn’t reset no one would play the class. Due to how little damage they can sustain they would have to out play and make zero mistakes every fight to stand a chance at a win in the 1v1 fight.arenet would have to make some changes to make their mistakes a little more forgiving

Yea but DE shouldn't be 1v1ing regardless vs taking out a target quickly. IMHO. I look at pvp differently if I make a mistake I expect to get punished not just reset when I want to if I mess up etc. If a player capitalizes on my misplay then they are the better player. But isn't that how it should be? The player that makes the least mistakes should win. That goes for any game. RTS, FPS, Fighting etc.

I've seen RTS players have flawless opening sequences and still get rushed and rolled up anyway. Thieves do get punished for their mistakes, it's why they stealth or reset, because they can't take as much punishment.

Yea but allowing them to reset promotes bad play. Maybe if you are S/D you do, maybe even D/P, but DE is a whole different level.

No it does not "promote bad gameplay" Reset is part of the defenses a thief has just as other classes have OTHER advantages that allow them to stick in a fight without a reset. I do not have to reset on my warrior as often due to blocks, high incoming heals , higher armor , Endure pain , higher vitality and the like. Just because my warrior can use these things rather then breaking off a fight does not mean I am a better player or play a "healthier style".

Add to that if I have all of these tools in my arsenal to generate my sustain and survivability , I can remain in the fight and NOT allow the enemy a change to get that healt or INI back IF the thief stays in the fight AND if that thief does in fact reset all of my own used skills come off cooldown. I can make a whole pile of mistakes where the thief can not. Add to that a warrior , depending on enemies faced can break off a fight and reset as well. A Common strategy is when in trouble on warrior is to break off , get those skills off cooldown and health rebuilt as you flee, then turn on the pursuing enemy at an opportune time to take him out. I have won fights on my warrior , without dodging or blocking a single attack just due to the high armor and sustain. granted this against poorer players but my thief would never win such a fight if it did not dodge , stealth from or resetting on those same bad players.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with resetting a fight. It a viable strategy and one of the assets a thief has given they like all those other things that allow other classes to stay in a fight and given the fact the thief uses INI over cooldown skills which can lock him out of weapon skills outside #1 for periods of time.

No resetting with a simple dodge(that grants you stealth) or in mesmers case stunbreaks as well is absolutely bad design that promotes bad gameplay. There is a difference you are overlooking. There is healthy resetting and unhealthy(0 consequence resetting). For example D/P Daredevil. If I steal in and miss and have to reset. My options are to shadowstep out, powder out, or black powder and HS to gain stealth. Which means I have to burn a cool down or waste initiative. Then there is unhealthy resetting where I just tap my dodge key and waste nothing other than some endurance which is easily and quickly regenerated.

So maybe not ALL resetting promotes bad gameplay but there are definitely forms of it that do. As I said before resetting on DE is COMPLETELY different than resetting on DD/Core S/D.

It is not "completely different" . First and foremost DE is not just rifle and the only spech you are talking about is Rifle. DE without Rifle has less dodges than Daredevil . My d/p staff Daredevil has a much easier time resetting then my DE P/d build.

DE Rifle without stealth has fewer dodges then DrD no blocks no blinds , no interrupts and no Invuln frames such as one gets with Daggerstorm. The only reset it has is stealth and the build is focused on stealth. Complaining about stealth on DE Rifle WHICH the build designed around is like complaining about dodges on a daredevil. Endurance on a Daredevil is recovered a lot faster than on a DE Rifle and chaining multiple dodges in a row is very effective at avoiding damage and breaking off combat.

Thief has always been able to break off a fight and reset even prior to DE rifle and the same complaints about that ability to reset have been going on for years. Just because DE rifle uses a different method does not make it suddenly bad.

The issue with thief is only indirectly related to stealth on dodge with Rifle specced. It is with camping stealth for long periods of time which has been around for years and is why Ghost Thief caused such QQ. The simplest fix is to reduce the amount of seconds of stealth one gets from a given skill use when one already stealthed. A one second shave would go a long ways here.

There is nothing easier than resetting by pressing a dodge key and getting stealth. You literally remove yourself from the fight instantly without wasting a major cool down or initiative.

No I am talking about just DE in general. Most of the points you made are mute because the DE build in pvp runs dagger storm and also runs signet of agility. Just because DrD has one extra dodge doesn't mean anything. Especially when that dodge effect has a drawback(exhaustion) where as Silent Scope doesn't. It is also a flat buff to all weapon sets and an extra buff to rifle. DE Rile never runs without stealth so again your point is moot.

You are correct thief has always been able to break off but not without spending a cooldown or using initiative. Endurance is such an easily regened resource there are no drawbacks to it.

Ghost thief in WvW also required that you cycle through traps to stack up the stealth.

No that isn't the solution. You would be nerfing other thief specs indirectly for a single case. No one has an issue with D/P stealth. No one has an issue with S/D. People STRICTLY have an issue with how easy it is for silent scope. The easiest fix is to give it either an ICD or exhaustion just like they did with dash.

No DE build has stealth on dodge except Rifle so how on earth can you state can you say it an issue with DE in general then in the next breath talk about silent scope! If I am not in rifle I do not get stealth on dodge because I am not taking silent scope. The only stealth I get without rifle is from Smeld IF traited and pressing a button to stealth with SMELD is not any easier then pressing a button to get stealth via Blinding powder. My P/d build using DE does not take silent scope. My power s/p build using DE does not take silent scope. Silenst scope is useless because it only works with Rifle and I do not take rifle.

As to an extra dodge not meaning anything , why on Earth even take Daredevil were that the case? It a huge advantage and is more then just one extra dodge as it adds a dodge on steal as well. Those extra dodges can allow a d/p thief to wreck the DE Rifle thief.

Stealth does NOT remove you from a fight. I am not sure you even play thief when you make that claim. You can still take damage. Your healing is compromised by being considered in fight. You can still be stunned , subjected to AOE , cleave and killed by channles such as a ranger Rapid fire and the like. If I am on a DE rifle I can kill another thief on DE rifle that just stealthed.

As to ghost thief. No you did NOT need to cycle through traps to build that stealth. You could camp stealth wihout using trappers runes and trappers runes was the only way you got stealth on setting a trap. Go back to that topic and i pointed out many times how it was easy to do without Runes of the trapper. I can go on daredevil now and permastealth.

You literally swap to file as part of rotation so yea you will definitely have stealth on dodge. But it is cute that you keep trying to make points which actually aren't really points. You only get stealth with rifle! Yea, and? If you're running DE chances are you have rifle with either D/P or S/D as your alternate weapon set. You end your rotation with rifle so if you screw up. Guess what? You get stealth on dodge!

Yea you take damage in stealth, but again if you are using your rifle, you are at range and can stealth out, or even juke with stealth. The only way you die when using stealth to disengage if you are bad at juking or your enemy predicts your movements which shouldn't happen if you are good at juking them. Getting hit in stealth is purely hypothetical, chances are you will be able to safely disengage. Especially using rifle 4 and curing condis as well. EZ PZ.

Okay again you completely glance over the point I made about why Stealth on dodge is bad design and that is because it comes at literally 0 cost to you. Can you perma stealth with daredevil? yea. By wasting all your initiative stacking it. DE you can literally swap to a rifle or just get stealth for literally free. WITH 0 drawback versus say Dash on thief if you clear conditions with unhindered combatant you get exhaustion.

There is literally 0 draw back to silent scope. So you have to have a rifle equipped? I already stated why that is not even a valid point. Since chances are you are running rifle with whatever second weapon set you want.

If you swap to Rifle then you are not a non rifle build. No my p/d build does not use rifle. Why would he? My S/P build does not use Rifle. why would he? Stealth with s/p does little and I get all I need from Smeld. If as you say , you fighting at range with rifle, you using rifle to stealth when you screw up, you are using Number 4 to port away when in trouble or to juke then you are a RIFLE build as you are spending most of your time in Rifle. You stated clearly that Silent scope a flat out buff to ALL weapon sets which is patently false.

As to getting stealth on Dodge if you "screw up" that is exactly why so many Daredevil builds use SB. They PORT away if they screw up and get a legitimate reset.

If in Rifle and using stealth on dodge you get all of 6 seconds stealth added every twenty seconds via those dodges. Do the math in your "screw up and swap to rifle to get a dodge on stealth scenario" chances are IF you are doing that you are getting 1 added 3 second stealth every 20 seconds. This UNLESS you primarily a Rifle build. It just bad gameplay in a build calling itself d/p or s/d to swap to rifle JUST to chain a couple of dodges togther for stealth.

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@babazhook.6805 said:

@omgdracula.6345 said:People in here really trying to defend stealth on dodge?
That is the single most broken mechanic I have seen.
You are literally defending something that has no cooldown other than your stamina limitation that gives extreme benefits to the user. Hell it doesn't even have an ICD.

Ok, you must be pretty new to this game, right? a) Stamina is a real restriction and b) Mirage Cloak (1s dodge + can be used while stunned), Soulbeast boon stacking (in particular the damage+sustain resulting from this), Rampage and Holosmith are all perfectly balanced, right?

Yes, Endurance is a restriction. But when you have 3-4 seconds of stealth per dodge to stall the fight, with plenty of ways to increase the flow of Endurance, one has to ask how restrictive it actually is when implemented in this way.

I also find it interesting that you point out that Endurance has restrictions, just to use Mirage Cloak as a counter-example to back up your point when it is also limited to Endurance. Is Mirage Cloak too strong in its current implementation or not? I can imagine you might be equally annoyed by someone arguing "Well, it's limited to Endurance so it's balanced" in order to defend it. Keep in mind, I am fully aware of how frustrating it is to fight a Mirage as any class besides a Thief.

But I digress. Your counter-argument seems to be "These classes over here are equally if not more unbalanced." Perhaps you are correct, but it is irrelevant to this discussion. Each of the classes mentioned have their own threads/discussions on what to do with them.

I didn't mean to give counter examples. I was just referring to the claim that Silent Scope would be
"the single most broken mechanic"
in the game. That's why I mentioned e.g. Mirage Cloak which is in my opinion at least as strong as Stealth on Dodge. But I agree that mentioning Souldbeast and Holosmith is problematic, because it's not one mechanic that makes them so good atm but several skills that functions very well together.

The problem is that Deadeye was just redesigned to function like this: Stack Malice and then execute a stealth attack for a major advantage. But how should this work if you have no good access to stealth? Like e.g. on Shortbow and Sword/Pistol? So just removing the stealth trait would basically make Rifle no longer really fitting the design (yes, you can use Kneel + Sniper's Cover + Free Action + Death's Retreat but that's ridiculous and you would die trying this against any competent opponent...) which would also be stupid because it's
the
Weapon for Deadeyes...

Also, stealth is the only real defensive mechanic in nearly any Deadeye build. I mean (in WvW at least) you can run Acrobatics over Deadly Arts or Critical Strikes but this will significantly lower your damage (which is what many people want, lowering the burst) and one basically only does this to get more frequent use of Silent Scope anyway. And besides this option there is nothing left: No Rifle-skill has a build-in evade (like S/D), block or any kind of damage mitigation. You don't even have an interrupt, an unblockable attack or a reliable blind...

To sum it up: Most people believe that bringing back the old Silent Scope would fix the problem with high stealth uptime. But it is simple not true... Even before the redesign it was possible to have this amount of stealth. It was basically just better because you had stealth + dodge whenever you need it (at the cost of fluent gameplay)... Now you more or less
waste
energy if you are forced to dodge while Revealed. But that's what most people who just qq don't understand.

I agree that Silent Scope is not the
most broken
mechanic in the game. It is however a mechanic I think most of us can give good commentary/criticism on since I'm assuming the lot of us in this thread are Thief mains.

Stealth is definitely a defensive mechanic as well as an offensive mechanic that is crucial for the Deadeye due to how their Malice expenditure works. They do absolutely need that quick and easy access to stealth. This is why I was glad ANet added a stealth to Deadeye stolen skills (they were borderline useless without it). The issue is that in its current form, there is too much reward for very little risk or investment. It's simply a dumb mechanic that is needlessly frustrating to fight against. Nevermind the fact that the Malice stacking you mentioned doesn't seem to affect the Deadeye the way it should because it is very frequent that they completely ignore its purpose and just outright burst the target from stealth.

I'm also of the opinion that Shadow Arts generally needs to be addressed as it is a key player in the "perma-stealth" issue. I've stated in the past that it is a generally unhealthy traitline that rewards passive gameplay (with the exception of Rending Shade) which ANet generally frowns upon, which is why it is so surprising they haven't touched it. It's in a bizarre limbo where it's useless in some settings but frustrating to fight in others. My point here is I agree with you that this is a multi-faceted issue.

SA needs rework, but it's not mandatory for perms stealth.Main problems with deadeye:
  1. High opening burst.
  2. Easy access to stealth.
  3. Crazy amount of stealth.1st and 3rd point are not bad by themselfs. What makes this combo broken is adding these 2 AND also 2nd point - silent scope, that gives deadeye way to easy reset potential. U just swap to rifle, dodge roll once or twice and reset completely. That's unacceptable to leave this as it is cuz it promotes way to low risk, high reward gameplay.

That pretty much sums up the issue here.

SA is still a poorly balanced trait line though.

This sums up nothing. It just is a list that more or less characterize what defines the current meta: a) have good burst and b) bring enough sustain (and mobility for roaming).

Replace 3 by "Crazy amount of sustain" and you basically have characterized what fighting an engineer feels like... Or replace 3 by "Crazy sustain" and add 4 "Easily apply many boons" and you have described Soulbeast... Oh, how about replacing 3 by "Crazy amount of defensive cds" and add 4 "Ridiculous mobility" and you characterized Mesmer? Should I go on?

This list of so-called "main problems" (for Deadeye) is just a list of things you don't like to deal with and hence just cry for nerfs.

Holos and sb have a balance issues, while deadeye and mirage are just trashly designed(or both of this problems).If u tune down the soul beast or holo fighting them won't be a big problem, while mirage with mirage cloak still will be cancer, and deadeye will still be able to reset in every possible situation, until the mechanics won't be changed.There is a difference between numbers and bad design

And what is the problem if someone resets? You also get out of combat, heal to full hp and your skills come off cd... So no one should really get a huge advantage out of that.

The problem I think they are bringing up as far as reset is that you can make a mistake and not worry about it. Missed a skill? Reset, Got caught and punished? Reset. Someone got the jump on me? Reset.

Issue is if they couldn’t reset no one would play the class. Due to how little damage they can sustain they would have to out play and make zero mistakes every fight to stand a chance at a win in the 1v1 fight.arenet would have to make some changes to make their mistakes a little more forgiving

Yea but DE shouldn't be 1v1ing regardless vs taking out a target quickly. IMHO. I look at pvp differently if I make a mistake I expect to get punished not just reset when I want to if I mess up etc. If a player capitalizes on my misplay then they are the better player. But isn't that how it should be? The player that makes the least mistakes should win. That goes for any game. RTS, FPS, Fighting etc.

I've seen RTS players have flawless opening sequences and still get rushed and rolled up anyway. Thieves do get punished for their mistakes, it's why they stealth or reset, because they can't take as much punishment.

Yea but allowing them to reset promotes bad play. Maybe if you are S/D you do, maybe even D/P, but DE is a whole different level.

No it does not "promote bad gameplay" Reset is part of the defenses a thief has just as other classes have OTHER advantages that allow them to stick in a fight without a reset. I do not have to reset on my warrior as often due to blocks, high incoming heals , higher armor , Endure pain , higher vitality and the like. Just because my warrior can use these things rather then breaking off a fight does not mean I am a better player or play a "healthier style".

Add to that if I have all of these tools in my arsenal to generate my sustain and survivability , I can remain in the fight and NOT allow the enemy a change to get that healt or INI back IF the thief stays in the fight AND if that thief does in fact reset all of my own used skills come off cooldown. I can make a whole pile of mistakes where the thief can not. Add to that a warrior , depending on enemies faced can break off a fight and reset as well. A Common strategy is when in trouble on warrior is to break off , get those skills off cooldown and health rebuilt as you flee, then turn on the pursuing enemy at an opportune time to take him out. I have won fights on my warrior , without dodging or blocking a single attack just due to the high armor and sustain. granted this against poorer players but my thief would never win such a fight if it did not dodge , stealth from or resetting on those same bad players.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with resetting a fight. It a viable strategy and one of the assets a thief has given they like all those other things that allow other classes to stay in a fight and given the fact the thief uses INI over cooldown skills which can lock him out of weapon skills outside #1 for periods of time.

No resetting with a simple dodge(that grants you stealth) or in mesmers case stunbreaks as well is absolutely bad design that promotes bad gameplay. There is a difference you are overlooking. There is healthy resetting and unhealthy(0 consequence resetting). For example D/P Daredevil. If I steal in and miss and have to reset. My options are to shadowstep out, powder out, or black powder and HS to gain stealth. Which means I have to burn a cool down or waste initiative. Then there is unhealthy resetting where I just tap my dodge key and waste nothing other than some endurance which is easily and quickly regenerated.

So maybe not ALL resetting promotes bad gameplay but there are definitely forms of it that do. As I said before resetting on DE is COMPLETELY different than resetting on DD/Core S/D.

It is not "completely different" . First and foremost DE is not just rifle and the only spech you are talking about is Rifle. DE without Rifle has less dodges than Daredevil . My d/p staff Daredevil has a much easier time resetting then my DE P/d build.

DE Rifle without stealth has fewer dodges then DrD no blocks no blinds , no interrupts and no Invuln frames such as one gets with Daggerstorm. The only reset it has is stealth and the build is focused on stealth. Complaining about stealth on DE Rifle WHICH the build designed around is like complaining about dodges on a daredevil. Endurance on a Daredevil is recovered a lot faster than on a DE Rifle and chaining multiple dodges in a row is very effective at avoiding damage and breaking off combat.

Thief has always been able to break off a fight and reset even prior to DE rifle and the same complaints about that ability to reset have been going on for years. Just because DE rifle uses a different method does not make it suddenly bad.

The issue with thief is only indirectly related to stealth on dodge with Rifle specced. It is with camping stealth for long periods of time which has been around for years and is why Ghost Thief caused such QQ. The simplest fix is to reduce the amount of seconds of stealth one gets from a given skill use when one already stealthed. A one second shave would go a long ways here.

There is nothing easier than resetting by pressing a dodge key and getting stealth. You literally remove yourself from the fight instantly without wasting a major cool down or initiative.

No I am talking about just DE in general. Most of the points you made are mute because the DE build in pvp runs dagger storm and also runs signet of agility. Just because DrD has one extra dodge doesn't mean anything. Especially when that dodge effect has a drawback(exhaustion) where as Silent Scope doesn't. It is also a flat buff to all weapon sets and an extra buff to rifle. DE Rile never runs without stealth so again your point is moot.

You are correct thief has always been able to break off but not without spending a cooldown or using initiative. Endurance is such an easily regened resource there are no drawbacks to it.

Ghost thief in WvW also required that you cycle through traps to stack up the stealth.

No that isn't the solution. You would be nerfing other thief specs indirectly for a single case. No one has an issue with D/P stealth. No one has an issue with S/D. People STRICTLY have an issue with how easy it is for silent scope. The easiest fix is to give it either an ICD or exhaustion just like they did with dash.

No DE build has stealth on dodge except Rifle so how on earth can you state can you say it an issue with DE in general then in the next breath talk about silent scope! If I am not in rifle I do not get stealth on dodge because I am not taking silent scope. The only stealth I get without rifle is from Smeld IF traited and pressing a button to stealth with SMELD is not any easier then pressing a button to get stealth via Blinding powder. My P/d build using DE does not take silent scope. My power s/p build using DE does not take silent scope. Silenst scope is useless because it only works with Rifle and I do not take rifle.

As to an extra dodge not meaning anything , why on Earth even take Daredevil were that the case? It a huge advantage and is more then just one extra dodge as it adds a dodge on steal as well. Those extra dodges can allow a d/p thief to wreck the DE Rifle thief.

Stealth does NOT remove you from a fight. I am not sure you even play thief when you make that claim. You can still take damage. Your healing is compromised by being considered in fight. You can still be stunned , subjected to AOE , cleave and killed by channles such as a ranger Rapid fire and the like. If I am on a DE rifle I can kill another thief on DE rifle that just stealthed.

As to ghost thief. No you did NOT need to cycle through traps to build that stealth. You could camp stealth wihout using trappers runes and trappers runes was the only way you got stealth on setting a trap. Go back to that topic and i pointed out many times how it was easy to do without Runes of the trapper. I can go on daredevil now and permastealth.

You literally swap to file as part of rotation so yea you will definitely have stealth on dodge. But it is cute that you keep trying to make points which actually aren't really points. You only get stealth with rifle! Yea, and? If you're running DE chances are you have rifle with either D/P or S/D as your alternate weapon set. You end your rotation with rifle so if you screw up. Guess what? You get stealth on dodge!

Yea you take damage in stealth, but again if you are using your rifle, you are at range and can stealth out, or even juke with stealth. The only way you die when using stealth to disengage if you are bad at juking or your enemy predicts your movements which shouldn't happen if you are good at juking them. Getting hit in stealth is purely hypothetical, chances are you will be able to safely disengage. Especially using rifle 4 and curing condis as well. EZ PZ.

Okay again you completely glance over the point I made about why Stealth on dodge is bad design and that is because it comes at literally 0 cost to you. Can you perma stealth with daredevil? yea. By wasting all your initiative stacking it. DE you can literally swap to a rifle or just get stealth for literally free. WITH 0 drawback versus say Dash on thief if you clear conditions with unhindered combatant you get exhaustion.

There is literally 0 draw back to silent scope. So you have to have a rifle equipped? I already stated why that is not even a valid point. Since chances are you are running rifle with whatever second weapon set you want.

If you swap to Rifle then you are not a non rifle build. No my p/d build does not use rifle. Why would he? My S/P build does not use Rifle. why would he? Stealth with s/p does little and I get all I need from Smeld. If as you say , you fighting at range with rifle, you using rifle to stealth when you screw up, you are using Number 4 to port away when in trouble or to juke then you are a RIFLE build as you are spending most of your time in Rifle. You stated clearly that Silent scope a flat out buff to ALL weapon sets which is patently false.

As to getting stealth on Dodge if you "screw up" that is exactly why so many Daredevil builds use SB. They PORT away if they screw up and get a legitimate reset.

If in Rifle and using stealth on dodge you get all of 6 seconds stealth added every twenty seconds via those dodges. Do the math in your "screw up and swap to rifle to get a dodge on stealth scenario" chances are IF you are doing that you are getting 1 added 3 second stealth every 20 seconds. This UNLESS you primarily a Rifle build. It just bad gameplay in a build calling itself d/p or s/d to swap to rifle JUST to chain a couple of dodges together for stealth.

Are you even reading the points I am making, because again you bring up all these points talking about your builds over and over again. The fact you take shadow meld over storm is just outright hilarious since storm is so far superior to it. Trying to put meld on the same tier as storm is just impossible.

Silent Scope isn't fully tied to rifle, so yea its partly a buff to any other set you are running, using a rifle compounds the buff.

Your last point just isn't even a point. DD uses SB because it gives them high mobility to traverse maps. Not for disengaging. Since oh my god chances are we where in combat and probably don't have initiative to disengage with it. Even if we do it doesn't grant stealth so easily trackable as well.

If you are using DE and don't have a rifle as a weapon set you are just wasting the spec. Especially since rifle also has a disengage in rifle 4 for less initiative that isn't hindered by valid path errors at all as well.

Im going to take a guess your rotation on S/P is DE Mark, I-Strike, Whip. But you don't use rifle which means you miss out on I-Strike return then swap to stealth and D-Judgement.

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@omgdracula.6345 said:

@omgdracula.6345 said:People in here really trying to defend stealth on dodge?
That is the single most broken mechanic I have seen.
You are literally defending something that has no cooldown other than your stamina limitation that gives extreme benefits to the user. Hell it doesn't even have an ICD.

Ok, you must be pretty new to this game, right? a) Stamina is a real restriction and b) Mirage Cloak (1s dodge + can be used while stunned), Soulbeast boon stacking (in particular the damage+sustain resulting from this), Rampage and Holosmith are all perfectly balanced, right?

Yes, Endurance is a restriction. But when you have 3-4 seconds of stealth per dodge to stall the fight, with plenty of ways to increase the flow of Endurance, one has to ask how restrictive it actually is when implemented in this way.

I also find it interesting that you point out that Endurance has restrictions, just to use Mirage Cloak as a counter-example to back up your point when it is also limited to Endurance. Is Mirage Cloak too strong in its current implementation or not? I can imagine you might be equally annoyed by someone arguing "Well, it's limited to Endurance so it's balanced" in order to defend it. Keep in mind, I am fully aware of how frustrating it is to fight a Mirage as any class besides a Thief.

But I digress. Your counter-argument seems to be "These classes over here are equally if not more unbalanced." Perhaps you are correct, but it is irrelevant to this discussion. Each of the classes mentioned have their own threads/discussions on what to do with them.

I didn't mean to give counter examples. I was just referring to the claim that Silent Scope would be
"the single most broken mechanic"
in the game. That's why I mentioned e.g. Mirage Cloak which is in my opinion at least as strong as Stealth on Dodge. But I agree that mentioning Souldbeast and Holosmith is problematic, because it's not one mechanic that makes them so good atm but several skills that functions very well together.

The problem is that Deadeye was just redesigned to function like this: Stack Malice and then execute a stealth attack for a major advantage. But how should this work if you have no good access to stealth? Like e.g. on Shortbow and Sword/Pistol? So just removing the stealth trait would basically make Rifle no longer really fitting the design (yes, you can use Kneel + Sniper's Cover + Free Action + Death's Retreat but that's ridiculous and you would die trying this against any competent opponent...) which would also be stupid because it's
the
Weapon for Deadeyes...

Also, stealth is the only real defensive mechanic in nearly any Deadeye build. I mean (in WvW at least) you can run Acrobatics over Deadly Arts or Critical Strikes but this will significantly lower your damage (which is what many people want, lowering the burst) and one basically only does this to get more frequent use of Silent Scope anyway. And besides this option there is nothing left: No Rifle-skill has a build-in evade (like S/D), block or any kind of damage mitigation. You don't even have an interrupt, an unblockable attack or a reliable blind...

To sum it up: Most people believe that bringing back the old Silent Scope would fix the problem with high stealth uptime. But it is simple not true... Even before the redesign it was possible to have this amount of stealth. It was basically just better because you had stealth + dodge whenever you need it (at the cost of fluent gameplay)... Now you more or less
waste
energy if you are forced to dodge while Revealed. But that's what most people who just qq don't understand.

I agree that Silent Scope is not the
most broken
mechanic in the game. It is however a mechanic I think most of us can give good commentary/criticism on since I'm assuming the lot of us in this thread are Thief mains.

Stealth is definitely a defensive mechanic as well as an offensive mechanic that is crucial for the Deadeye due to how their Malice expenditure works. They do absolutely need that quick and easy access to stealth. This is why I was glad ANet added a stealth to Deadeye stolen skills (they were borderline useless without it). The issue is that in its current form, there is too much reward for very little risk or investment. It's simply a dumb mechanic that is needlessly frustrating to fight against. Nevermind the fact that the Malice stacking you mentioned doesn't seem to affect the Deadeye the way it should because it is very frequent that they completely ignore its purpose and just outright burst the target from stealth.

I'm also of the opinion that Shadow Arts generally needs to be addressed as it is a key player in the "perma-stealth" issue. I've stated in the past that it is a generally unhealthy traitline that rewards passive gameplay (with the exception of Rending Shade) which ANet generally frowns upon, which is why it is so surprising they haven't touched it. It's in a bizarre limbo where it's useless in some settings but frustrating to fight in others. My point here is I agree with you that this is a multi-faceted issue.

SA needs rework, but it's not mandatory for perms stealth.Main problems with deadeye:
  1. High opening burst.
  2. Easy access to stealth.
  3. Crazy amount of stealth.1st and 3rd point are not bad by themselfs. What makes this combo broken is adding these 2 AND also 2nd point - silent scope, that gives deadeye way to easy reset potential. U just swap to rifle, dodge roll once or twice and reset completely. That's unacceptable to leave this as it is cuz it promotes way to low risk, high reward gameplay.

That pretty much sums up the issue here.

SA is still a poorly balanced trait line though.

This sums up nothing. It just is a list that more or less characterize what defines the current meta: a) have good burst and b) bring enough sustain (and mobility for roaming).

Replace 3 by "Crazy amount of sustain" and you basically have characterized what fighting an engineer feels like... Or replace 3 by "Crazy sustain" and add 4 "Easily apply many boons" and you have described Soulbeast... Oh, how about replacing 3 by "Crazy amount of defensive cds" and add 4 "Ridiculous mobility" and you characterized Mesmer? Should I go on?

This list of so-called "main problems" (for Deadeye) is just a list of things you don't like to deal with and hence just cry for nerfs.

Holos and sb have a balance issues, while deadeye and mirage are just trashly designed(or both of this problems).If u tune down the soul beast or holo fighting them won't be a big problem, while mirage with mirage cloak still will be cancer, and deadeye will still be able to reset in every possible situation, until the mechanics won't be changed.There is a difference between numbers and bad design

And what is the problem if someone resets? You also get out of combat, heal to full hp and your skills come off cd... So no one should really get a huge advantage out of that.

The problem I think they are bringing up as far as reset is that you can make a mistake and not worry about it. Missed a skill? Reset, Got caught and punished? Reset. Someone got the jump on me? Reset.

Issue is if they couldn’t reset no one would play the class. Due to how little damage they can sustain they would have to out play and make zero mistakes every fight to stand a chance at a win in the 1v1 fight.arenet would have to make some changes to make their mistakes a little more forgiving

Yea but DE shouldn't be 1v1ing regardless vs taking out a target quickly. IMHO. I look at pvp differently if I make a mistake I expect to get punished not just reset when I want to if I mess up etc. If a player capitalizes on my misplay then they are the better player. But isn't that how it should be? The player that makes the least mistakes should win. That goes for any game. RTS, FPS, Fighting etc.

I've seen RTS players have flawless opening sequences and still get rushed and rolled up anyway. Thieves do get punished for their mistakes, it's why they stealth or reset, because they can't take as much punishment.

Yea but allowing them to reset promotes bad play. Maybe if you are S/D you do, maybe even D/P, but DE is a whole different level.

No it does not "promote bad gameplay" Reset is part of the defenses a thief has just as other classes have OTHER advantages that allow them to stick in a fight without a reset. I do not have to reset on my warrior as often due to blocks, high incoming heals , higher armor , Endure pain , higher vitality and the like. Just because my warrior can use these things rather then breaking off a fight does not mean I am a better player or play a "healthier style".

Add to that if I have all of these tools in my arsenal to generate my sustain and survivability , I can remain in the fight and NOT allow the enemy a change to get that healt or INI back IF the thief stays in the fight AND if that thief does in fact reset all of my own used skills come off cooldown. I can make a whole pile of mistakes where the thief can not. Add to that a warrior , depending on enemies faced can break off a fight and reset as well. A Common strategy is when in trouble on warrior is to break off , get those skills off cooldown and health rebuilt as you flee, then turn on the pursuing enemy at an opportune time to take him out. I have won fights on my warrior , without dodging or blocking a single attack just due to the high armor and sustain. granted this against poorer players but my thief would never win such a fight if it did not dodge , stealth from or resetting on those same bad players.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with resetting a fight. It a viable strategy and one of the assets a thief has given they like all those other things that allow other classes to stay in a fight and given the fact the thief uses INI over cooldown skills which can lock him out of weapon skills outside #1 for periods of time.

No resetting with a simple dodge(that grants you stealth) or in mesmers case stunbreaks as well is absolutely bad design that promotes bad gameplay. There is a difference you are overlooking. There is healthy resetting and unhealthy(0 consequence resetting). For example D/P Daredevil. If I steal in and miss and have to reset. My options are to shadowstep out, powder out, or black powder and HS to gain stealth. Which means I have to burn a cool down or waste initiative. Then there is unhealthy resetting where I just tap my dodge key and waste nothing other than some endurance which is easily and quickly regenerated.

So maybe not ALL resetting promotes bad gameplay but there are definitely forms of it that do. As I said before resetting on DE is COMPLETELY different than resetting on DD/Core S/D.

It is not "completely different" . First and foremost DE is not just rifle and the only spech you are talking about is Rifle. DE without Rifle has less dodges than Daredevil . My d/p staff Daredevil has a much easier time resetting then my DE P/d build.

DE Rifle without stealth has fewer dodges then DrD no blocks no blinds , no interrupts and no Invuln frames such as one gets with Daggerstorm. The only reset it has is stealth and the build is focused on stealth. Complaining about stealth on DE Rifle WHICH the build designed around is like complaining about dodges on a daredevil. Endurance on a Daredevil is recovered a lot faster than on a DE Rifle and chaining multiple dodges in a row is very effective at avoiding damage and breaking off combat.

Thief has always been able to break off a fight and reset even prior to DE rifle and the same complaints about that ability to reset have been going on for years. Just because DE rifle uses a different method does not make it suddenly bad.

The issue with thief is only indirectly related to stealth on dodge with Rifle specced. It is with camping stealth for long periods of time which has been around for years and is why Ghost Thief caused such QQ. The simplest fix is to reduce the amount of seconds of stealth one gets from a given skill use when one already stealthed. A one second shave would go a long ways here.

There is nothing easier than resetting by pressing a dodge key and getting stealth. You literally remove yourself from the fight instantly without wasting a major cool down or initiative.

No I am talking about just DE in general. Most of the points you made are mute because the DE build in pvp runs dagger storm and also runs signet of agility. Just because DrD has one extra dodge doesn't mean anything. Especially when that dodge effect has a drawback(exhaustion) where as Silent Scope doesn't. It is also a flat buff to all weapon sets and an extra buff to rifle. DE Rile never runs without stealth so again your point is moot.

You are correct thief has always been able to break off but not without spending a cooldown or using initiative. Endurance is such an easily regened resource there are no drawbacks to it.

Ghost thief in WvW also required that you cycle through traps to stack up the stealth.

No that isn't the solution. You would be nerfing other thief specs indirectly for a single case. No one has an issue with D/P stealth. No one has an issue with S/D. People STRICTLY have an issue with how easy it is for silent scope. The easiest fix is to give it either an ICD or exhaustion just like they did with dash.

No DE build has stealth on dodge except Rifle so how on earth can you state can you say it an issue with DE in general then in the next breath talk about silent scope! If I am not in rifle I do not get stealth on dodge because I am not taking silent scope. The only stealth I get without rifle is from Smeld IF traited and pressing a button to stealth with SMELD is not any easier then pressing a button to get stealth via Blinding powder. My P/d build using DE does not take silent scope. My power s/p build using DE does not take silent scope. Silenst scope is useless because it only works with Rifle and I do not take rifle.

As to an extra dodge not meaning anything , why on Earth even take Daredevil were that the case? It a huge advantage and is more then just one extra dodge as it adds a dodge on steal as well. Those extra dodges can allow a d/p thief to wreck the DE Rifle thief.

Stealth does NOT remove you from a fight. I am not sure you even play thief when you make that claim. You can still take damage. Your healing is compromised by being considered in fight. You can still be stunned , subjected to AOE , cleave and killed by channles such as a ranger Rapid fire and the like. If I am on a DE rifle I can kill another thief on DE rifle that just stealthed.

As to ghost thief. No you did NOT need to cycle through traps to build that stealth. You could camp stealth wihout using trappers runes and trappers runes was the only way you got stealth on setting a trap. Go back to that topic and i pointed out many times how it was easy to do without Runes of the trapper. I can go on daredevil now and permastealth.

You literally swap to file as part of rotation so yea you will definitely have stealth on dodge. But it is cute that you keep trying to make points which actually aren't really points. You only get stealth with rifle! Yea, and? If you're running DE chances are you have rifle with either D/P or S/D as your alternate weapon set. You end your rotation with rifle so if you screw up. Guess what? You get stealth on dodge!

Yea you take damage in stealth, but again if you are using your rifle, you are at range and can stealth out, or even juke with stealth. The only way you die when using stealth to disengage if you are bad at juking or your enemy predicts your movements which shouldn't happen if you are good at juking them. Getting hit in stealth is purely hypothetical, chances are you will be able to safely disengage. Especially using rifle 4 and curing condis as well. EZ PZ.

Okay again you completely glance over the point I made about why Stealth on dodge is bad design and that is because it comes at literally 0 cost to you. Can you perma stealth with daredevil? yea. By wasting all your initiative stacking it. DE you can literally swap to a rifle or just get stealth for literally free. WITH 0 drawback versus say Dash on thief if you clear conditions with unhindered combatant you get exhaustion.

There is literally 0 draw back to silent scope. So you have to have a rifle equipped? I already stated why that is not even a valid point. Since chances are you are running rifle with whatever second weapon set you want.

If you swap to Rifle then you are not a non rifle build. No my p/d build does not use rifle. Why would he? My S/P build does not use Rifle. why would he? Stealth with s/p does little and I get all I need from Smeld. If as you say , you fighting at range with rifle, you using rifle to stealth when you screw up, you are using Number 4 to port away when in trouble or to juke then you are a RIFLE build as you are spending most of your time in Rifle. You stated clearly that Silent scope a flat out buff to ALL weapon sets which is patently false.

As to getting stealth on Dodge if you "screw up" that is exactly why so many Daredevil builds use SB. They PORT away if they screw up and get a legitimate reset.

If in Rifle and using stealth on dodge you get all of 6 seconds stealth added every twenty seconds via those dodges. Do the math in your "screw up and swap to rifle to get a dodge on stealth scenario" chances are IF you are doing that you are getting 1 added 3 second stealth every 20 seconds. This UNLESS you primarily a Rifle build. It just bad gameplay in a build calling itself d/p or s/d to swap to rifle JUST to chain a couple of dodges together for stealth.

Are you even reading the points I am making, because again you bring up all these points talking about your builds over and over again. The fact you take shadow meld over storm is just outright hilarious since storm is so far superior to it. Trying to put meld on the same tier as storm is just impossible.

Silent Scope isn't fully tied to rifle, so yea its partly a buff to any other set you are running, using a rifle compounds the buff.

Your last point just isn't even a point. DD uses SB because it gives them high mobility to traverse maps. Not for disengaging. Since oh my god chances are we where in combat and probably don't have initiative to disengage with it. Even if we do it doesn't grant stealth so easily trackable as well.

If you are using DE and don't have a rifle as a weapon set you are just wasting the spec. Especially since rifle also has a disengage in rifle 4 for less initiative that isn't hindered by valid path errors at all as well.

Im going to take a guess your rotation on S/P is DE Mark, I-Strike, Whip. But you don't use rifle which means you miss out on I-Strike return then swap to stealth and D-Judgement.

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Jeknar.6184

Jeknar.6184

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Swap Silent Scope and Fire for Effect slots... Wanna run that dumb stealth on dodge? Then lose the potential of running Be Quick or Be Dead/Maleficent Seven. There is literally zero reason to not pick silent scope as the other two traits aren't strong enough to compete with it.

@Caedmon.6798 said:Play DE without Silent scope equipped,go run in wvw or w/e.Tell me how much fun you'l have with no stealth on dodge,its def not gonna break the spec ! Oh no,not at all.Im sure you'l be pew pewing everything to deth without it !

I did ran CS/Trick/DE without Silent Scope for quite a while and would never have any issues until the obvious superior sniper (Longbow Soulbeast) would appear. The damage is much better and having more initiative is much more fluid than having to stealth over and over.

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dDuff.3860

dDuff.3860

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@Jeknar.6184 said:Swap Silent Scope and Fire for Effect slots... Wanna run that dumb stealth on dodge? Then lose the potential of running Be Quick or Be Dead/Maleficent Seven. There is literally zero reason to not pick silent scope as the other two traits aren't strong enough to compete with it.

@"Caedmon.6798" said:Play DE without Silent scope equipped,go run in wvw or w/e.Tell me how much fun you'l have with no stealth on dodge,its def not gonna break the spec ! Oh no,not at all.Im sure you'l be pew pewing everything to deth without it !

I did ran CS/Trick/DE without Silent Scope for quite a while and would never have any issues until the obvious superior sniper (Longbow Soulbeast) would appear. The damage is much better and having more initiative is much more fluid than having to stealth over and over.

Swapping it will completely kill competitive deadeye, tho. (by saying competitive i mean chances to fight it with semi/finals mAT). And "unfun to play against" part is here to stay since SA deadeye will stay "effective".On the other side, Fire for effect is complete nonsense for Grandmaster tier trait, as those meant to change playstyle of the build. Also if you ask me, i think all weapon related traits are master-tier or lower, so a weapon related trait better fits there.

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babazhook.6805

babazhook.6805

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@omgdracula.6345 said:

@omgdracula.6345 said:People in here really trying to defend stealth on dodge?
That is the single most broken mechanic I have seen.
You are literally defending something that has no cooldown other than your stamina limitation that gives extreme benefits to the user. Hell it doesn't even have an ICD.

Ok, you must be pretty new to this game, right? a) Stamina is a real restriction and b) Mirage Cloak (1s dodge + can be used while stunned), Soulbeast boon stacking (in particular the damage+sustain resulting from this), Rampage and Holosmith are all perfectly balanced, right?

Yes, Endurance is a restriction. But when you have 3-4 seconds of stealth per dodge to stall the fight, with plenty of ways to increase the flow of Endurance, one has to ask how restrictive it actually is when implemented in this way.

I also find it interesting that you point out that Endurance has restrictions, just to use Mirage Cloak as a counter-example to back up your point when it is also limited to Endurance. Is Mirage Cloak too strong in its current implementation or not? I can imagine you might be equally annoyed by someone arguing "Well, it's limited to Endurance so it's balanced" in order to defend it. Keep in mind, I am fully aware of how frustrating it is to fight a Mirage as any class besides a Thief.

But I digress. Your counter-argument seems to be "These classes over here are equally if not more unbalanced." Perhaps you are correct, but it is irrelevant to this discussion. Each of the classes mentioned have their own threads/discussions on what to do with them.

I didn't mean to give counter examples. I was just referring to the claim that Silent Scope would be
"the single most broken mechanic"
in the game. That's why I mentioned e.g. Mirage Cloak which is in my opinion at least as strong as Stealth on Dodge. But I agree that mentioning Souldbeast and Holosmith is problematic, because it's not one mechanic that makes them so good atm but several skills that functions very well together.

The problem is that Deadeye was just redesigned to function like this: Stack Malice and then execute a stealth attack for a major advantage. But how should this work if you have no good access to stealth? Like e.g. on Shortbow and Sword/Pistol? So just removing the stealth trait would basically make Rifle no longer really fitting the design (yes, you can use Kneel + Sniper's Cover + Free Action + Death's Retreat but that's ridiculous and you would die trying this against any competent opponent...) which would also be stupid because it's
the
Weapon for Deadeyes...

Also, stealth is the only real defensive mechanic in nearly any Deadeye build. I mean (in WvW at least) you can run Acrobatics over Deadly Arts or Critical Strikes but this will significantly lower your damage (which is what many people want, lowering the burst) and one basically only does this to get more frequent use of Silent Scope anyway. And besides this option there is nothing left: No Rifle-skill has a build-in evade (like S/D), block or any kind of damage mitigation. You don't even have an interrupt, an unblockable attack or a reliable blind...

To sum it up: Most people believe that bringing back the old Silent Scope would fix the problem with high stealth uptime. But it is simple not true... Even before the redesign it was possible to have this amount of stealth. It was basically just better because you had stealth + dodge whenever you need it (at the cost of fluent gameplay)... Now you more or less
waste
energy if you are forced to dodge while Revealed. But that's what most people who just qq don't understand.

I agree that Silent Scope is not the
most broken
mechanic in the game. It is however a mechanic I think most of us can give good commentary/criticism on since I'm assuming the lot of us in this thread are Thief mains.

Stealth is definitely a defensive mechanic as well as an offensive mechanic that is crucial for the Deadeye due to how their Malice expenditure works. They do absolutely need that quick and easy access to stealth. This is why I was glad ANet added a stealth to Deadeye stolen skills (they were borderline useless without it). The issue is that in its current form, there is too much reward for very little risk or investment. It's simply a dumb mechanic that is needlessly frustrating to fight against. Nevermind the fact that the Malice stacking you mentioned doesn't seem to affect the Deadeye the way it should because it is very frequent that they completely ignore its purpose and just outright burst the target from stealth.

I'm also of the opinion that Shadow Arts generally needs to be addressed as it is a key player in the "perma-stealth" issue. I've stated in the past that it is a generally unhealthy traitline that rewards passive gameplay (with the exception of Rending Shade) which ANet generally frowns upon, which is why it is so surprising they haven't touched it. It's in a bizarre limbo where it's useless in some settings but frustrating to fight in others. My point here is I agree with you that this is a multi-faceted issue.

SA needs rework, but it's not mandatory for perms stealth.Main problems with deadeye:
  1. High opening burst.
  2. Easy access to stealth.
  3. Crazy amount of stealth.1st and 3rd point are not bad by themselfs. What makes this combo broken is adding these 2 AND also 2nd point - silent scope, that gives deadeye way to easy reset potential. U just swap to rifle, dodge roll once or twice and reset completely. That's unacceptable to leave this as it is cuz it promotes way to low risk, high reward gameplay.

That pretty much sums up the issue here.

SA is still a poorly balanced trait line though.

This sums up nothing. It just is a list that more or less characterize what defines the current meta: a) have good burst and b) bring enough sustain (and mobility for roaming).

Replace 3 by "Crazy amount of sustain" and you basically have characterized what fighting an engineer feels like... Or replace 3 by "Crazy sustain" and add 4 "Easily apply many boons" and you have described Soulbeast... Oh, how about replacing 3 by "Crazy amount of defensive cds" and add 4 "Ridiculous mobility" and you characterized Mesmer? Should I go on?

This list of so-called "main problems" (for Deadeye) is just a list of things you don't like to deal with and hence just cry for nerfs.

Holos and sb have a balance issues, while deadeye and mirage are just trashly designed(or both of this problems).If u tune down the soul beast or holo fighting them won't be a big problem, while mirage with mirage cloak still will be cancer, and deadeye will still be able to reset in every possible situation, until the mechanics won't be changed.There is a difference between numbers and bad design

And what is the problem if someone resets? You also get out of combat, heal to full hp and your skills come off cd... So no one should really get a huge advantage out of that.

The problem I think they are bringing up as far as reset is that you can make a mistake and not worry about it. Missed a skill? Reset, Got caught and punished? Reset. Someone got the jump on me? Reset.

Issue is if they couldn’t reset no one would play the class. Due to how little damage they can sustain they would have to out play and make zero mistakes every fight to stand a chance at a win in the 1v1 fight.arenet would have to make some changes to make their mistakes a little more forgiving

Yea but DE shouldn't be 1v1ing regardless vs taking out a target quickly. IMHO. I look at pvp differently if I make a mistake I expect to get punished not just reset when I want to if I mess up etc. If a player capitalizes on my misplay then they are the better player. But isn't that how it should be? The player that makes the least mistakes should win. That goes for any game. RTS, FPS, Fighting etc.

I've seen RTS players have flawless opening sequences and still get rushed and rolled up anyway. Thieves do get punished for their mistakes, it's why they stealth or reset, because they can't take as much punishment.

Yea but allowing them to reset promotes bad play. Maybe if you are S/D you do, maybe even D/P, but DE is a whole different level.

No it does not "promote bad gameplay" Reset is part of the defenses a thief has just as other classes have OTHER advantages that allow them to stick in a fight without a reset. I do not have to reset on my warrior as often due to blocks, high incoming heals , higher armor , Endure pain , higher vitality and the like. Just because my warrior can use these things rather then breaking off a fight does not mean I am a better player or play a "healthier style".

Add to that if I have all of these tools in my arsenal to generate my sustain and survivability , I can remain in the fight and NOT allow the enemy a change to get that healt or INI back IF the thief stays in the fight AND if that thief does in fact reset all of my own used skills come off cooldown. I can make a whole pile of mistakes where the thief can not. Add to that a warrior , depending on enemies faced can break off a fight and reset as well. A Common strategy is when in trouble on warrior is to break off , get those skills off cooldown and health rebuilt as you flee, then turn on the pursuing enemy at an opportune time to take him out. I have won fights on my warrior , without dodging or blocking a single attack just due to the high armor and sustain. granted this against poorer players but my thief would never win such a fight if it did not dodge , stealth from or resetting on those same bad players.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with resetting a fight. It a viable strategy and one of the assets a thief has given they like all those other things that allow other classes to stay in a fight and given the fact the thief uses INI over cooldown skills which can lock him out of weapon skills outside #1 for periods of time.

No resetting with a simple dodge(that grants you stealth) or in mesmers case stunbreaks as well is absolutely bad design that promotes bad gameplay. There is a difference you are overlooking. There is healthy resetting and unhealthy(0 consequence resetting). For example D/P Daredevil. If I steal in and miss and have to reset. My options are to shadowstep out, powder out, or black powder and HS to gain stealth. Which means I have to burn a cool down or waste initiative. Then there is unhealthy resetting where I just tap my dodge key and waste nothing other than some endurance which is easily and quickly regenerated.

So maybe not ALL resetting promotes bad gameplay but there are definitely forms of it that do. As I said before resetting on DE is COMPLETELY different than resetting on DD/Core S/D.

It is not "completely different" . First and foremost DE is not just rifle and the only spech you are talking about is Rifle. DE without Rifle has less dodges than Daredevil . My d/p staff Daredevil has a much easier time resetting then my DE P/d build.

DE Rifle without stealth has fewer dodges then DrD no blocks no blinds , no interrupts and no Invuln frames such as one gets with Daggerstorm. The only reset it has is stealth and the build is focused on stealth. Complaining about stealth on DE Rifle WHICH the build designed around is like complaining about dodges on a daredevil. Endurance on a Daredevil is recovered a lot faster than on a DE Rifle and chaining multiple dodges in a row is very effective at avoiding damage and breaking off combat.

Thief has always been able to break off a fight and reset even prior to DE rifle and the same complaints about that ability to reset have been going on for years. Just because DE rifle uses a different method does not make it suddenly bad.

The issue with thief is only indirectly related to stealth on dodge with Rifle specced. It is with camping stealth for long periods of time which has been around for years and is why Ghost Thief caused such QQ. The simplest fix is to reduce the amount of seconds of stealth one gets from a given skill use when one already stealthed. A one second shave would go a long ways here.

There is nothing easier than resetting by pressing a dodge key and getting stealth. You literally remove yourself from the fight instantly without wasting a major cool down or initiative.

No I am talking about just DE in general. Most of the points you made are mute because the DE build in pvp runs dagger storm and also runs signet of agility. Just because DrD has one extra dodge doesn't mean anything. Especially when that dodge effect has a drawback(exhaustion) where as Silent Scope doesn't. It is also a flat buff to all weapon sets and an extra buff to rifle. DE Rile never runs without stealth so again your point is moot.

You are correct thief has always been able to break off but not without spending a cooldown or using initiative. Endurance is such an easily regened resource there are no drawbacks to it.

Ghost thief in WvW also required that you cycle through traps to stack up the stealth.

No that isn't the solution. You would be nerfing other thief specs indirectly for a single case. No one has an issue with D/P stealth. No one has an issue with S/D. People STRICTLY have an issue with how easy it is for silent scope. The easiest fix is to give it either an ICD or exhaustion just like they did with dash.

No DE build has stealth on dodge except Rifle so how on earth can you state can you say it an issue with DE in general then in the next breath talk about silent scope! If I am not in rifle I do not get stealth on dodge because I am not taking silent scope. The only stealth I get without rifle is from Smeld IF traited and pressing a button to stealth with SMELD is not any easier then pressing a button to get stealth via Blinding powder. My P/d build using DE does not take silent scope. My power s/p build using DE does not take silent scope. Silenst scope is useless because it only works with Rifle and I do not take rifle.

As to an extra dodge not meaning anything , why on Earth even take Daredevil were that the case? It a huge advantage and is more then just one extra dodge as it adds a dodge on steal as well. Those extra dodges can allow a d/p thief to wreck the DE Rifle thief.

Stealth does NOT remove you from a fight. I am not sure you even play thief when you make that claim. You can still take damage. Your healing is compromised by being considered in fight. You can still be stunned , subjected to AOE , cleave and killed by channles such as a ranger Rapid fire and the like. If I am on a DE rifle I can kill another thief on DE rifle that just stealthed.

As to ghost thief. No you did NOT need to cycle through traps to build that stealth. You could camp stealth wihout using trappers runes and trappers runes was the only way you got stealth on setting a trap. Go back to that topic and i pointed out many times how it was easy to do without Runes of the trapper. I can go on daredevil now and permastealth.

You literally swap to file as part of rotation so yea you will definitely have stealth on dodge. But it is cute that you keep trying to make points which actually aren't really points. You only get stealth with rifle! Yea, and? If you're running DE chances are you have rifle with either D/P or S/D as your alternate weapon set. You end your rotation with rifle so if you screw up. Guess what? You get stealth on dodge!

Yea you take damage in stealth, but again if you are using your rifle, you are at range and can stealth out, or even juke with stealth. The only way you die when using stealth to disengage if you are bad at juking or your enemy predicts your movements which shouldn't happen if you are good at juking them. Getting hit in stealth is purely hypothetical, chances are you will be able to safely disengage. Especially using rifle 4 and curing condis as well. EZ PZ.

Okay again you completely glance over the point I made about why Stealth on dodge is bad design and that is because it comes at literally 0 cost to you. Can you perma stealth with daredevil? yea. By wasting all your initiative stacking it. DE you can literally swap to a rifle or just get stealth for literally free. WITH 0 drawback versus say Dash on thief if you clear conditions with unhindered combatant you get exhaustion.

There is literally 0 draw back to silent scope. So you have to have a rifle equipped? I already stated why that is not even a valid point. Since chances are you are running rifle with whatever second weapon set you want.

If you swap to Rifle then you are not a non rifle build. No my p/d build does not use rifle. Why would he? My S/P build does not use Rifle. why would he? Stealth with s/p does little and I get all I need from Smeld. If as you say , you fighting at range with rifle, you using rifle to stealth when you screw up, you are using Number 4 to port away when in trouble or to juke then you are a RIFLE build as you are spending most of your time in Rifle. You stated clearly that Silent scope a flat out buff to ALL weapon sets which is patently false.

As to getting stealth on Dodge if you "screw up" that is exactly why so many Daredevil builds use SB. They PORT away if they screw up and get a legitimate reset.

If in Rifle and using stealth on dodge you get all of 6 seconds stealth added every twenty seconds via those dodges. Do the math in your "screw up and swap to rifle to get a dodge on stealth scenario" chances are IF you are doing that you are getting 1 added 3 second stealth every 20 seconds. This UNLESS you primarily a Rifle build. It just bad gameplay in a build calling itself d/p or s/d to swap to rifle JUST to chain a couple of dodges together for stealth.

Are you even reading the points I am making, because again you bring up all these points talking about your builds over and over again. The fact you take shadow meld over storm is just outright hilarious since storm is so far superior to it. Trying to put meld on the same tier as storm is just impossible.

Silent Scope isn't fully tied to rifle, so yea its partly a buff to any other set you are running, using a rifle compounds the buff.

Your last point just isn't even a point. DD uses SB because it gives them high mobility to traverse maps. Not for disengaging. Since oh my god chances are we where in combat and probably don't have initiative to disengage with it. Even if we do it doesn't grant stealth so easily trackable as well.

If you are using DE and don't have a rifle as a weapon set you are just wasting the spec. Especially since rifle also has a disengage in rifle 4 for less initiative that isn't hindered by valid path errors at all as well.

Im going to take a guess your rotation on S/P is DE Mark, I-Strike, Whip. But you don't use rifle which means you miss out on I-Strike return then swap to stealth and D-Judgement.

1>In my P/d build I use SB off hand. I have no use for deaths judgement. I do not need stealth on dodge because I have all the stealth I need to unload malice via the Stolen skill getting capped, smeld and Cnd. I take payback over Silent scope as this refreshes my venoms and utility skills much more quickly.

2>In my s/p power I do not need rifle off hand. I do not need DJ which is too easily countered or reflected. I have near full time quickness and prefer PW and the malice stealth attack with sword which has a daze endurance regen and a huge dump of vuln. This also loads on weakness with regularity. I can freely use black powder or the added daze on 4 at will. In this build I have a high number of boons and stick with premed as I am usually running 6 + boons full time and the boon duration offered allows me to stack multiple iterations of the malice 7 kick in. Swapping to rifle for a singular DJ is not worthwhile as I am now locked there for 10 seconds and given that against any competent player a DJ shot from that range dodges, blocked or reflected it not worth the swap on the off chance I will get a shot in. S/p already has a disengage along with Condition cleanse so the 4 on rifle is redundant.

The combo of premed and the 10 stack vuln add off the stealth attack sword, increases damage by over 16 percent. With Iron sight that 26 percent + damage out of the DE line which is plenty of reason to take that line even without rifle.

3>The only build I use Silent scope in is my rifle focused build. This is one of three builds I have that use the DE line. With the builds that are NOT DE i either have little issues stealthing when needed or rely on evades and dodges for defense coupled with a SB use for reset. If I wanted to use a singular use of DJ in a set where another set was the prime set, I do not need stealth on dodge to get stealth. I Could Smeld to get that stealth or use 4 the malice stacked stealth or some other source. I rarely do this as I prefer malice dump on sword.

In your scenario I can just as easily Mark , i strike in , PW , I strike out weapon swap , stealth via smeld/Blinding powder/Malice full stealth and the like and DJ if I wished to. S/p is not focused on stealth so i do not need a lot of sources for such things.

As to thief not using SB to disengage. I am not sure where you play but rest assured when I am roaming and see a group of 20 coming my way, I disengae with SB and get out of dodge as do most Daredevils I encounter when they want to break off a fight. This is also how I get away on my p/d condition build when things going wrong. Managing initiative so you can do these things is part and parcel of being a thief.

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