Small Change ideas for Deadeye to make them more Healthy

omgdracula.6345 · January 11, 2019

People in here really trying to defend stealth on dodge? That is the single most broken mechanic I have seen. You are literally defending something that has no cooldown other than your stamina limitation that gives extreme benefits to the user. Hell it doesn't even have an ICD.

Do you all remember release thief and the CnD backstab spam? This is pretty much reminiscent of that. Weaving big hits out of stealth whenever you want but don't need to hit a target. Or expend your resources that allow you to do damage. It needs to be changed or have an ICD added to it.

EDIT: As dDuff pointed out what I mean is DE is pretty much CnD esque without needing a target to gain stealth.

Telwyn.1630 · January 11, 2019

I play a male human deadeye thief but not on pvp cause I'm still getting used to the rifle build, not ready for using deadeye on a pvp without getting target first then lose.

dDuff.3860 · January 11, 2019

@omgdracula.6345 said:People in here really trying to defend stealth on dodge? That is the single most broken mechanic I have seen. You are literally defending something that has no cooldown other than your stamina limitation that gives extreme benefits to the user. Hell it doesn't even have an ICD.
Do you all remember release thief and the CnD backstab spam? This is pretty much reminiscent of that. Weaving big hits out of stealth whenever you want but don't need to hit a target. Or expend your resources that allow you to do damage. It needs to be changed or have an ICD added to it.

CnD always required a target to give you stealth.

omgdracula.6345 · January 11, 2019

@dDuff.3860 said:
@omgdracula.6345 said:People in here really trying to defend stealth on dodge? That is the single most broken mechanic I have seen. You are literally defending something that has no cooldown other than your stamina limitation that gives extreme benefits to the user. Hell it doesn't even have an ICD.
Do you all remember release thief and the CnD backstab spam? This is pretty much reminiscent of that. Weaving big hits out of stealth whenever you want but don't need to hit a target. Or expend your resources that allow you to do damage. It needs to be changed or have an ICD added to it.

CnD always required a target to give you stealth.

I know it does I am saying DE is the opposite of that. So in a way it is worse. But re-reading my post I can see how it can be taken as I meant CnD was what didn't need a target. My fault.

syszery.1592 · January 13, 2019

@omgdracula.6345 said:People in here really trying to defend stealth on dodge? That is the single most broken mechanic I have seen. You are literally defending something that has no cooldown other than your stamina limitation that gives extreme benefits to the user. Hell it doesn't even have an ICD.

Ok, you must be pretty new to this game, right? a) Stamina is a real restriction and b) Mirage Cloak (1s dodge + can be used while stunned), Soulbeast boon stacking (in particular the damage+sustain resulting from this), Rampage and Holosmith are all perfectly balanced, right?

Safandula.8723 · January 14, 2019

@syszery.1592 said:
@omgdracula.6345 said:People in here really trying to defend stealth on dodge?
That is the single most broken mechanic I have seen.
You are literally defending something that has no cooldown other than your stamina limitation that gives extreme benefits to the user. Hell it doesn't even have an ICD.

Ok, you must be pretty new to this game, right? a) Stamina is a real restriction and b) Mirage Cloak (1s dodge + can be used while stunned), Soulbeast boon stacking (in particular the damage+sustain resulting from this), Rampage and Holosmith are all perfectly balanced, right?

have to agree mirage cloak is more broken, but soulbeast is more of a balance issue than design problem. but truth is that defending silent scope is just dumb

Exitus.3297 · January 14, 2019

@syszery.1592 said:
@"omgdracula.6345" said:People in here really trying to defend stealth on dodge?
That is the single most broken mechanic I have seen.
You are literally defending something that has no cooldown other than your stamina limitation that gives extreme benefits to the user. Hell it doesn't even have an ICD.

Ok, you must be pretty new to this game, right? a) Stamina is a real restriction and b) Mirage Cloak (1s dodge + can be used while stunned), Soulbeast boon stacking (in particular the damage+sustain resulting from this), Rampage and Holosmith are all perfectly balanced, right?

Yes, Endurance is a restriction. But when you have 3-4 seconds of stealth per dodge to stall the fight, with plenty of ways to increase the flow of Endurance, one has to ask how restrictive it actually is when implemented in this way.

I also find it interesting that you point out that Endurance has restrictions, just to use Mirage Cloak as a counter-example to back up your point when it is also limited to Endurance. Is Mirage Cloak too strong in its current implementation or not? I can imagine you might be equally annoyed by someone arguing "Well, it's limited to Endurance so it's balanced" in order to defend it. Keep in mind, I am fully aware of how frustrating it is to fight a Mirage as any class besides a Thief.

But I digress. Your counter-argument seems to be "These classes over here are equally if not more unbalanced." Perhaps you are correct, but it is irrelevant to this discussion. Each of the classes mentioned have their own threads/discussions on what to do with them.

syszery.1592 · January 14, 2019

@Exitus.3297 said:
@syszery.1592 said:
@"omgdracula.6345" said:People in here really trying to defend stealth on dodge?
That is the single most broken mechanic I have seen.
You are literally defending something that has no cooldown other than your stamina limitation that gives extreme benefits to the user. Hell it doesn't even have an ICD.

Ok, you must be pretty new to this game, right? a) Stamina is a real restriction and b) Mirage Cloak (1s dodge + can be used while stunned), Soulbeast boon stacking (in particular the damage+sustain resulting from this), Rampage and Holosmith are all perfectly balanced, right?

Yes, Endurance is a restriction. But when you have 3-4 seconds of stealth per dodge to stall the fight, with plenty of ways to increase the flow of Endurance, one has to ask how restrictive it actually is when implemented in this way.

I also find it interesting that you point out that Endurance has restrictions, just to use Mirage Cloak as a counter-example to back up your point when it is also limited to Endurance. Is Mirage Cloak too strong in its current implementation or not? I can imagine you might be equally annoyed by someone arguing "Well, it's limited to Endurance so it's balanced" in order to defend it. Keep in mind, I am fully aware of how frustrating it is to fight a Mirage as any class besides a Thief.

But I digress. Your counter-argument seems to be "These classes over here are equally if not more unbalanced." Perhaps you are correct, but it is irrelevant to this discussion. Each of the classes mentioned have their own threads/discussions on what to do with them.

I didn't mean to give counter examples. I was just referring to the claim that Silent Scope would be "the single most broken mechanic" in the game. That's why I mentioned e.g. Mirage Cloak which is in my opinion at least as strong as Stealth on Dodge. But I agree that mentioning Souldbeast and Holosmith is problematic, because it's not one mechanic that makes them so good atm but several skills that functions very well together.

The problem is that Deadeye was just redesigned to function like this: Stack Malice and then execute a stealth attack for a major advantage. But how should this work if you have no good access to stealth? Like e.g. on Shortbow and Sword/Pistol? So just removing the stealth trait would basically make Rifle no longer really fitting the design (yes, you can use Kneel + Sniper's Cover + Free Action + Death's Retreat but that's ridiculous and you would die trying this against any competent opponent...) which would also be stupid because it's the Weapon for Deadeyes...

Also, stealth is the only real defensive mechanic in nearly any Deadeye build. I mean (in WvW at least) you can run Acrobatics over Deadly Arts or Critical Strikes but this will significantly lower your damage (which is what many people want, lowering the burst) and one basically only does this to get more frequent use of Silent Scope anyway. And besides this option there is nothing left: No Rifle-skill has a build-in evade (like S/D), block or any kind of damage mitigation. You don't even have an interrupt, an unblockable attack or a reliable blind...

To sum it up: Most people believe that bringing back the old Silent Scope would fix the problem with high stealth uptime. But it is simple not true... Even before the redesign it was possible to have this amount of stealth. It was basically just better because you had stealth + dodge whenever you need it (at the cost of fluent gameplay)... Now you more or less waste energy if you are forced to dodge while Revealed. But that's what most people who just qq don't understand.

dDuff.3860 · January 14, 2019

@syszery.1592 said:
@Exitus.3297 said:
@syszery.1592 said:
@"omgdracula.6345" said:People in here really trying to defend stealth on dodge?
That is the single most broken mechanic I have seen.
You are literally defending something that has no cooldown other than your stamina limitation that gives extreme benefits to the user. Hell it doesn't even have an ICD.

Ok, you must be pretty new to this game, right? a) Stamina is a real restriction and b) Mirage Cloak (1s dodge + can be used while stunned), Soulbeast boon stacking (in particular the damage+sustain resulting from this), Rampage and Holosmith are all perfectly balanced, right?

Yes, Endurance is a restriction. But when you have 3-4 seconds of stealth per dodge to stall the fight, with plenty of ways to increase the flow of Endurance, one has to ask how restrictive it actually is when implemented in this way.

I also find it interesting that you point out that Endurance has restrictions, just to use Mirage Cloak as a counter-example to back up your point when it is also limited to Endurance. Is Mirage Cloak too strong in its current implementation or not? I can imagine you might be equally annoyed by someone arguing "Well, it's limited to Endurance so it's balanced" in order to defend it. Keep in mind, I am fully aware of how frustrating it is to fight a Mirage as any class besides a Thief.

But I digress. Your counter-argument seems to be "These classes over here are equally if not more unbalanced." Perhaps you are correct, but it is irrelevant to this discussion. Each of the classes mentioned have their own threads/discussions on what to do with them.

I didn't mean to give counter examples. I was just referring to the claim that Silent Scope would be

"the single most broken mechanic"

in the game. That's why I mentioned e.g. Mirage Cloak which is in my opinion at least as strong as Stealth on Dodge. But I agree that mentioning Souldbeast and Holosmith is problematic, because it's not one mechanic that makes them so good atm but several skills that functions very well together.

The problem is that Deadeye was just redesigned to function like this: Stack Malice and then execute a stealth attack for a major advantage. But how should this work if you have no good access to stealth? Like e.g. on Shortbow and Sword/Pistol? So just removing the stealth trait would basically make Rifle no longer really fitting the design (yes, you can use Kneel + Sniper's Cover + Free Action + Death's Retreat but that's ridiculous and you would die trying this against any competent opponent...) which would also be stupid because it's

the

Weapon for Deadeyes...

Also, stealth is the only real defensive mechanic in nearly any Deadeye build. I mean (in WvW at least) you can run Acrobatics over Deadly Arts or Critical Strikes but this will significantly lower your damage (which is what many people want, lowering the burst) and one basically only does this to get more frequent use of Silent Scope anyway. And besides this option there is nothing left: No Rifle-skill has a build-in evade (like S/D), block or any kind of damage mitigation. You don't even have an interrupt, an unblockable attack or a reliable blind...

To sum it up: Most people believe that bringing back the old Silent Scope would fix the problem with high stealth uptime. But it is simple not true... Even before the redesign it was possible to have this amount of stealth. It was basically just better because you had stealth + dodge whenever you need it (at the cost of fluent gameplay)... Now you more or less

waste

energy if you are forced to dodge while Revealed. But that's what most people who just qq don't understand.

Don't try throwing beads in front of pigs. The community just thinks something is dumb, and it is dumb to back your opinion with arguments when you can just call something "dumb".

On a side note very few ppl really understand issue and balancing mechanic of Silent scope, and even less giving options to balance it. It has to be a trait, tied to rifle (because it is only 1 of 9 traits in DE traitline that is weapon specific), it has to be buffing rifle gameplay (just like swindler's equilibrium — OMG THIS TRAIT IS OP, ANYONE DEFENDING IT IS DUMB — buffing sword gamaplay), it has to provide defensive mechanism (because there are no defensive mechanics in DE traitline at all, compared to DrD). Finally, according to the community voice, it has to be fun.

But in fact, no one understands, that oneshots which ppl calling out are here to stay, just like bounding dodger D/p thief has perma stealth even without Shadow arts, and can oneshot you with assassin's signet whel steal off cd.

P.S. btw, cleaning immobilize with dodge is op, anyone defending it is dumb.

omgdracula.6345 · January 14, 2019

@syszery.1592 said:
@omgdracula.6345 said:People in here really trying to defend stealth on dodge?
That is the single most broken mechanic I have seen.
You are literally defending something that has no cooldown other than your stamina limitation that gives extreme benefits to the user. Hell it doesn't even have an ICD.

Ok, you must be pretty new to this game, right? a) Stamina is a real restriction and b) Mirage Cloak (1s dodge + can be used while stunned), Soulbeast boon stacking (in particular the damage+sustain resulting from this), Rampage and Holosmith are all perfectly balanced, right?

No stamina isn't. You can't be serious lol. Especially with running vigor on steal and having signet of agility there should never be a time where you can't use a dodge to stealth unless you are hella poor at managing your stamina. Takes 10s to charge for a dodge, 5s to charge if you have vigor which uptime should be decently high on that.

Now if Anet put an ICD on the benefits of those dodges, or exhaustion to slow down/freeze stamina regen then there would be hard restrictions. But endurance is so easily rechargeable it's downtime is more or less non existent.

omgdracula.6345 · January 14, 2019

@dDuff.3860 said:
@syszery.1592 said:
@Exitus.3297 said:
@syszery.1592 said:
@"omgdracula.6345" said:People in here really trying to defend stealth on dodge?
That is the single most broken mechanic I have seen.
You are literally defending something that has no cooldown other than your stamina limitation that gives extreme benefits to the user. Hell it doesn't even have an ICD.

Ok, you must be pretty new to this game, right? a) Stamina is a real restriction and b) Mirage Cloak (1s dodge + can be used while stunned), Soulbeast boon stacking (in particular the damage+sustain resulting from this), Rampage and Holosmith are all perfectly balanced, right?

Yes, Endurance is a restriction. But when you have 3-4 seconds of stealth per dodge to stall the fight, with plenty of ways to increase the flow of Endurance, one has to ask how restrictive it actually is when implemented in this way.

I also find it interesting that you point out that Endurance has restrictions, just to use Mirage Cloak as a counter-example to back up your point when it is also limited to Endurance. Is Mirage Cloak too strong in its current implementation or not? I can imagine you might be equally annoyed by someone arguing "Well, it's limited to Endurance so it's balanced" in order to defend it. Keep in mind, I am fully aware of how frustrating it is to fight a Mirage as any class besides a Thief.

But I digress. Your counter-argument seems to be "These classes over here are equally if not more unbalanced." Perhaps you are correct, but it is irrelevant to this discussion. Each of the classes mentioned have their own threads/discussions on what to do with them.

I didn't mean to give counter examples. I was just referring to the claim that Silent Scope would be

"the single most broken mechanic"

in the game. That's why I mentioned e.g. Mirage Cloak which is in my opinion at least as strong as Stealth on Dodge. But I agree that mentioning Souldbeast and Holosmith is problematic, because it's not one mechanic that makes them so good atm but several skills that functions very well together.

The problem is that Deadeye was just redesigned to function like this: Stack Malice and then execute a stealth attack for a major advantage. But how should this work if you have no good access to stealth? Like e.g. on Shortbow and Sword/Pistol? So just removing the stealth trait would basically make Rifle no longer really fitting the design (yes, you can use Kneel + Sniper's Cover + Free Action + Death's Retreat but that's ridiculous and you would die trying this against any competent opponent...) which would also be stupid because it's

the

Weapon for Deadeyes...

Also, stealth is the only real defensive mechanic in nearly any Deadeye build. I mean (in WvW at least) you can run Acrobatics over Deadly Arts or Critical Strikes but this will significantly lower your damage (which is what many people want, lowering the burst) and one basically only does this to get more frequent use of Silent Scope anyway. And besides this option there is nothing left: No Rifle-skill has a build-in evade (like S/D), block or any kind of damage mitigation. You don't even have an interrupt, an unblockable attack or a reliable blind...

To sum it up: Most people believe that bringing back the old Silent Scope would fix the problem with high stealth uptime. But it is simple not true... Even before the redesign it was possible to have this amount of stealth. It was basically just better because you had stealth + dodge whenever you need it (at the cost of fluent gameplay)... Now you more or less

waste

energy if you are forced to dodge while Revealed. But that's what most people who just qq don't understand.

Don't try throwing beads in front of pigs. The community just thinks something is dumb, and it is dumb to back your opinion with arguments when you can just call something "dumb".

On a side note very few ppl really understand issue and balancing mechanic of Silent scope, and even less giving options to balance it.

It has to be a trait, tied to rifle

(because it is only 1 of 9 traits in DE traitline that is weapon specific),

it has to be buffing rifle gameplay

(just like swindler's equilibrium — OMG THIS TRAIT IS OP, ANYONE DEFENDING IT IS DUMB — buffing sword gamaplay),

it has to provide defensive mechanism

(because there are no defensive mechanics in DE traitline at all, compared to DrD). Finally, according to the community voice, it has to be fun.

But in fact, no one understands, that oneshots which ppl calling out are here to stay, just like bounding dodger D/p thief has perma stealth even without Shadow arts, and can oneshot you with assassin's signet whel steal off cd.

P.S. btw, cleaning immobilize with dodge is op, anyone defending it is dumb.

It is only partly tied to rifle. All other weapon sets still get the bonus for just having a rifle equipped. Swindlers Equilibrium was hilariously good before nerfs. Dodge to refresh a skill that is front loaded with a ton of benefits. That could be recharged with S/D #3.

Also literally no one runs bounding dodger on D/P.

Exitus.3297 · January 15, 2019

@syszery.1592 said:
@Exitus.3297 said:
@syszery.1592 said:
@"omgdracula.6345" said:People in here really trying to defend stealth on dodge?
That is the single most broken mechanic I have seen.
You are literally defending something that has no cooldown other than your stamina limitation that gives extreme benefits to the user. Hell it doesn't even have an ICD.

Ok, you must be pretty new to this game, right? a) Stamina is a real restriction and b) Mirage Cloak (1s dodge + can be used while stunned), Soulbeast boon stacking (in particular the damage+sustain resulting from this), Rampage and Holosmith are all perfectly balanced, right?

Yes, Endurance is a restriction. But when you have 3-4 seconds of stealth per dodge to stall the fight, with plenty of ways to increase the flow of Endurance, one has to ask how restrictive it actually is when implemented in this way.

I also find it interesting that you point out that Endurance has restrictions, just to use Mirage Cloak as a counter-example to back up your point when it is also limited to Endurance. Is Mirage Cloak too strong in its current implementation or not? I can imagine you might be equally annoyed by someone arguing "Well, it's limited to Endurance so it's balanced" in order to defend it. Keep in mind, I am fully aware of how frustrating it is to fight a Mirage as any class besides a Thief.

But I digress. Your counter-argument seems to be "These classes over here are equally if not more unbalanced." Perhaps you are correct, but it is irrelevant to this discussion. Each of the classes mentioned have their own threads/discussions on what to do with them.

I didn't mean to give counter examples. I was just referring to the claim that Silent Scope would be

"the single most broken mechanic"

in the game. That's why I mentioned e.g. Mirage Cloak which is in my opinion at least as strong as Stealth on Dodge. But I agree that mentioning Souldbeast and Holosmith is problematic, because it's not one mechanic that makes them so good atm but several skills that functions very well together.

The problem is that Deadeye was just redesigned to function like this: Stack Malice and then execute a stealth attack for a major advantage. But how should this work if you have no good access to stealth? Like e.g. on Shortbow and Sword/Pistol? So just removing the stealth trait would basically make Rifle no longer really fitting the design (yes, you can use Kneel + Sniper's Cover + Free Action + Death's Retreat but that's ridiculous and you would die trying this against any competent opponent...) which would also be stupid because it's

the

Weapon for Deadeyes...

Also, stealth is the only real defensive mechanic in nearly any Deadeye build. I mean (in WvW at least) you can run Acrobatics over Deadly Arts or Critical Strikes but this will significantly lower your damage (which is what many people want, lowering the burst) and one basically only does this to get more frequent use of Silent Scope anyway. And besides this option there is nothing left: No Rifle-skill has a build-in evade (like S/D), block or any kind of damage mitigation. You don't even have an interrupt, an unblockable attack or a reliable blind...

To sum it up: Most people believe that bringing back the old Silent Scope would fix the problem with high stealth uptime. But it is simple not true... Even before the redesign it was possible to have this amount of stealth. It was basically just better because you had stealth + dodge whenever you need it (at the cost of fluent gameplay)... Now you more or less

waste

energy if you are forced to dodge while Revealed. But that's what most people who just qq don't understand.

I agree that Silent Scope is not the most broken mechanic in the game. It is however a mechanic I think most of us can give good commentary/criticism on since I'm assuming the lot of us in this thread are Thief mains.

Stealth is definitely a defensive mechanic as well as an offensive mechanic that is crucial for the Deadeye due to how their Malice expenditure works. They do absolutely need that quick and easy access to stealth. This is why I was glad ANet added a stealth to Deadeye stolen skills (they were borderline useless without it). The issue is that in its current form, there is too much reward for very little risk or investment. It's simply a dumb mechanic that is needlessly frustrating to fight against. Nevermind the fact that the Malice stacking you mentioned doesn't seem to affect the Deadeye the way it should because it is very frequent that they completely ignore its purpose and just outright burst the target from stealth.

I'm also of the opinion that Shadow Arts generally needs to be addressed as it is a key player in the "perma-stealth" issue. I've stated in the past that it is a generally unhealthy traitline that rewards passive gameplay (with the exception of Rending Shade) which ANet generally frowns upon, which is why it is so surprising they haven't touched it. It's in a bizarre limbo where it's useless in some settings but frustrating to fight in others. My point here is I agree with you that this is a multi-faceted issue.

Safandula.8723 · January 15, 2019

@Exitus.3297 said:
@syszery.1592 said:
@Exitus.3297 said:
@syszery.1592 said:
@"omgdracula.6345" said:People in here really trying to defend stealth on dodge?
That is the single most broken mechanic I have seen.
You are literally defending something that has no cooldown other than your stamina limitation that gives extreme benefits to the user. Hell it doesn't even have an ICD.

Ok, you must be pretty new to this game, right? a) Stamina is a real restriction and b) Mirage Cloak (1s dodge + can be used while stunned), Soulbeast boon stacking (in particular the damage+sustain resulting from this), Rampage and Holosmith are all perfectly balanced, right?

Yes, Endurance is a restriction. But when you have 3-4 seconds of stealth per dodge to stall the fight, with plenty of ways to increase the flow of Endurance, one has to ask how restrictive it actually is when implemented in this way.

I also find it interesting that you point out that Endurance has restrictions, just to use Mirage Cloak as a counter-example to back up your point when it is also limited to Endurance. Is Mirage Cloak too strong in its current implementation or not? I can imagine you might be equally annoyed by someone arguing "Well, it's limited to Endurance so it's balanced" in order to defend it. Keep in mind, I am fully aware of how frustrating it is to fight a Mirage as any class besides a Thief.

But I digress. Your counter-argument seems to be "These classes over here are equally if not more unbalanced." Perhaps you are correct, but it is irrelevant to this discussion. Each of the classes mentioned have their own threads/discussions on what to do with them.

I didn't mean to give counter examples. I was just referring to the claim that Silent Scope would be

"the single most broken mechanic"

in the game. That's why I mentioned e.g. Mirage Cloak which is in my opinion at least as strong as Stealth on Dodge. But I agree that mentioning Souldbeast and Holosmith is problematic, because it's not one mechanic that makes them so good atm but several skills that functions very well together.

The problem is that Deadeye was just redesigned to function like this: Stack Malice and then execute a stealth attack for a major advantage. But how should this work if you have no good access to stealth? Like e.g. on Shortbow and Sword/Pistol? So just removing the stealth trait would basically make Rifle no longer really fitting the design (yes, you can use Kneel + Sniper's Cover + Free Action + Death's Retreat but that's ridiculous and you would die trying this against any competent opponent...) which would also be stupid because it's

the

Weapon for Deadeyes...

Also, stealth is the only real defensive mechanic in nearly any Deadeye build. I mean (in WvW at least) you can run Acrobatics over Deadly Arts or Critical Strikes but this will significantly lower your damage (which is what many people want, lowering the burst) and one basically only does this to get more frequent use of Silent Scope anyway. And besides this option there is nothing left: No Rifle-skill has a build-in evade (like S/D), block or any kind of damage mitigation. You don't even have an interrupt, an unblockable attack or a reliable blind...

To sum it up: Most people believe that bringing back the old Silent Scope would fix the problem with high stealth uptime. But it is simple not true... Even before the redesign it was possible to have this amount of stealth. It was basically just better because you had stealth + dodge whenever you need it (at the cost of fluent gameplay)... Now you more or less

waste

energy if you are forced to dodge while Revealed. But that's what most people who just qq don't understand.

I agree that Silent Scope is not the

most broken

mechanic in the game. It is however a mechanic I think most of us can give good commentary/criticism on since I'm assuming the lot of us in this thread are Thief mains.

Stealth is definitely a defensive mechanic as well as an offensive mechanic that is crucial for the Deadeye due to how their Malice expenditure works. They do absolutely need that quick and easy access to stealth. This is why I was glad ANet added a stealth to Deadeye stolen skills (they were borderline useless without it). The issue is that in its current form, there is too much reward for very little risk or investment. It's simply a dumb mechanic that is needlessly frustrating to fight against. Nevermind the fact that the Malice stacking you mentioned doesn't seem to affect the Deadeye the way it should because it is very frequent that they completely ignore its purpose and just outright burst the target from stealth.

I'm also of the opinion that Shadow Arts generally needs to be addressed as it is a key player in the "perma-stealth" issue. I've stated in the past that it is a generally unhealthy traitline that rewards passive gameplay (with the exception of Rending Shade) which ANet generally frowns upon, which is why it is so surprising they haven't touched it. It's in a bizarre limbo where it's useless in some settings but frustrating to fight in others. My point here is I agree with you that this is a multi-faceted issue.

SA needs rework, but it's not mandatory for perms stealth.Main problems with deadeye:

High opening burst.
Easy access to stealth.
Crazy amount of stealth.1st and 3rd point are not bad by themselfs. What makes this combo broken is adding these 2 AND also 2nd point - silent scope, that gives deadeye way to easy reset potential. U just swap to rifle, dodge roll once or twice and reset completely. That's unacceptable to leave this as it is cuz it promotes way to low risk, high reward gameplay.

Bazsi.2734 · January 17, 2019

I know how to fix deadeye, here is what needs to be changed:

Dodgerolling applies reveal for 5 minutes, stacks up to 3 days. This reveal does not activate the "Revealed Training" trait, nor can it be removed.Silent Scope makes rifle sounds somewhat less loud.Malicious Intent: you get very angry when thinking about killing the enemy, which creates an omnious area around you that's visible even if you're in stealth.Be Quick or Be Killed: you have only a few seconds to kill someone or you die. You can't respawn after that.

I think this is a well thought out and balanced suggestion that would make DE feel so much better.

Psycoprophet.8107 · January 17, 2019

@"Bazsi.2734" said:I know how to fix deadeye, here is what needs to be changed:
Dodgerolling applies reveal for 5 minutes, stacks up to 3 days. This reveal does not activate the "Revealed Training" trait, nor can it be removed.Silent Scope makes rifle sounds somewhat less loud.Malicious Intent: you get very angry when thinking about killing the enemy, which creates an omnious area around you that's visible even if you're in stealth.Be Quick or Be Killed: you have only a few seconds to kill someone or you die. You can't respawn after that.
I think this is a well thought out and balanced suggestion that would make DE feel so much better.

Might want to add removes itself from thief profession entirely,or nurf cry’s will still come in masses solely because it’s thief lol

Exitus.3297 · January 18, 2019

@Safandula.8723 said:
@Exitus.3297 said:
@syszery.1592 said:
@Exitus.3297 said:
@syszery.1592 said:
@"omgdracula.6345" said:People in here really trying to defend stealth on dodge?
That is the single most broken mechanic I have seen.
You are literally defending something that has no cooldown other than your stamina limitation that gives extreme benefits to the user. Hell it doesn't even have an ICD.

Ok, you must be pretty new to this game, right? a) Stamina is a real restriction and b) Mirage Cloak (1s dodge + can be used while stunned), Soulbeast boon stacking (in particular the damage+sustain resulting from this), Rampage and Holosmith are all perfectly balanced, right?

Yes, Endurance is a restriction. But when you have 3-4 seconds of stealth per dodge to stall the fight, with plenty of ways to increase the flow of Endurance, one has to ask how restrictive it actually is when implemented in this way.

I also find it interesting that you point out that Endurance has restrictions, just to use Mirage Cloak as a counter-example to back up your point when it is also limited to Endurance. Is Mirage Cloak too strong in its current implementation or not? I can imagine you might be equally annoyed by someone arguing "Well, it's limited to Endurance so it's balanced" in order to defend it. Keep in mind, I am fully aware of how frustrating it is to fight a Mirage as any class besides a Thief.

But I digress. Your counter-argument seems to be "These classes over here are equally if not more unbalanced." Perhaps you are correct, but it is irrelevant to this discussion. Each of the classes mentioned have their own threads/discussions on what to do with them.

I didn't mean to give counter examples. I was just referring to the claim that Silent Scope would be

"the single most broken mechanic"

in the game. That's why I mentioned e.g. Mirage Cloak which is in my opinion at least as strong as Stealth on Dodge. But I agree that mentioning Souldbeast and Holosmith is problematic, because it's not one mechanic that makes them so good atm but several skills that functions very well together.

The problem is that Deadeye was just redesigned to function like this: Stack Malice and then execute a stealth attack for a major advantage. But how should this work if you have no good access to stealth? Like e.g. on Shortbow and Sword/Pistol? So just removing the stealth trait would basically make Rifle no longer really fitting the design (yes, you can use Kneel + Sniper's Cover + Free Action + Death's Retreat but that's ridiculous and you would die trying this against any competent opponent...) which would also be stupid because it's

the

Weapon for Deadeyes...

Also, stealth is the only real defensive mechanic in nearly any Deadeye build. I mean (in WvW at least) you can run Acrobatics over Deadly Arts or Critical Strikes but this will significantly lower your damage (which is what many people want, lowering the burst) and one basically only does this to get more frequent use of Silent Scope anyway. And besides this option there is nothing left: No Rifle-skill has a build-in evade (like S/D), block or any kind of damage mitigation. You don't even have an interrupt, an unblockable attack or a reliable blind...

To sum it up: Most people believe that bringing back the old Silent Scope would fix the problem with high stealth uptime. But it is simple not true... Even before the redesign it was possible to have this amount of stealth. It was basically just better because you had stealth + dodge whenever you need it (at the cost of fluent gameplay)... Now you more or less

waste

energy if you are forced to dodge while Revealed. But that's what most people who just qq don't understand.

I agree that Silent Scope is not the

most broken

mechanic in the game. It is however a mechanic I think most of us can give good commentary/criticism on since I'm assuming the lot of us in this thread are Thief mains.

Stealth is definitely a defensive mechanic as well as an offensive mechanic that is crucial for the Deadeye due to how their Malice expenditure works. They do absolutely need that quick and easy access to stealth. This is why I was glad ANet added a stealth to Deadeye stolen skills (they were borderline useless without it). The issue is that in its current form, there is too much reward for very little risk or investment. It's simply a dumb mechanic that is needlessly frustrating to fight against. Nevermind the fact that the Malice stacking you mentioned doesn't seem to affect the Deadeye the way it should because it is very frequent that they completely ignore its purpose and just outright burst the target from stealth.

I'm also of the opinion that Shadow Arts generally needs to be addressed as it is a key player in the "perma-stealth" issue. I've stated in the past that it is a generally unhealthy traitline that rewards passive gameplay (with the exception of Rending Shade) which ANet generally frowns upon, which is why it is so surprising they haven't touched it. It's in a bizarre limbo where it's useless in some settings but frustrating to fight in others. My point here is I agree with you that this is a multi-faceted issue.

SA needs rework, but it's not mandatory for perms stealth.Main problems with deadeye:

High opening burst.
Easy access to stealth.
Crazy amount of stealth.1st and 3rd point are not bad by themselfs. What makes this combo broken is adding these 2 AND also 2nd point - silent scope, that gives deadeye way to easy reset potential. U just swap to rifle, dodge roll once or twice and reset completely. That's unacceptable to leave this as it is cuz it promotes way to low risk, high reward gameplay.

That pretty much sums up the issue here.

SA is still a poorly balanced trait line though.

syszery.1592 · January 18, 2019

@Exitus.3297 said:
@Safandula.8723 said:
@Exitus.3297 said:
@syszery.1592 said:
@Exitus.3297 said:
@syszery.1592 said:
@"omgdracula.6345" said:People in here really trying to defend stealth on dodge?
That is the single most broken mechanic I have seen.
You are literally defending something that has no cooldown other than your stamina limitation that gives extreme benefits to the user. Hell it doesn't even have an ICD.

Ok, you must be pretty new to this game, right? a) Stamina is a real restriction and b) Mirage Cloak (1s dodge + can be used while stunned), Soulbeast boon stacking (in particular the damage+sustain resulting from this), Rampage and Holosmith are all perfectly balanced, right?

Yes, Endurance is a restriction. But when you have 3-4 seconds of stealth per dodge to stall the fight, with plenty of ways to increase the flow of Endurance, one has to ask how restrictive it actually is when implemented in this way.

I also find it interesting that you point out that Endurance has restrictions, just to use Mirage Cloak as a counter-example to back up your point when it is also limited to Endurance. Is Mirage Cloak too strong in its current implementation or not? I can imagine you might be equally annoyed by someone arguing "Well, it's limited to Endurance so it's balanced" in order to defend it. Keep in mind, I am fully aware of how frustrating it is to fight a Mirage as any class besides a Thief.

But I digress. Your counter-argument seems to be "These classes over here are equally if not more unbalanced." Perhaps you are correct, but it is irrelevant to this discussion. Each of the classes mentioned have their own threads/discussions on what to do with them.

I didn't mean to give counter examples. I was just referring to the claim that Silent Scope would be

"the single most broken mechanic"

in the game. That's why I mentioned e.g. Mirage Cloak which is in my opinion at least as strong as Stealth on Dodge. But I agree that mentioning Souldbeast and Holosmith is problematic, because it's not one mechanic that makes them so good atm but several skills that functions very well together.

The problem is that Deadeye was just redesigned to function like this: Stack Malice and then execute a stealth attack for a major advantage. But how should this work if you have no good access to stealth? Like e.g. on Shortbow and Sword/Pistol? So just removing the stealth trait would basically make Rifle no longer really fitting the design (yes, you can use Kneel + Sniper's Cover + Free Action + Death's Retreat but that's ridiculous and you would die trying this against any competent opponent...) which would also be stupid because it's

the

Weapon for Deadeyes...

Also, stealth is the only real defensive mechanic in nearly any Deadeye build. I mean (in WvW at least) you can run Acrobatics over Deadly Arts or Critical Strikes but this will significantly lower your damage (which is what many people want, lowering the burst) and one basically only does this to get more frequent use of Silent Scope anyway. And besides this option there is nothing left: No Rifle-skill has a build-in evade (like S/D), block or any kind of damage mitigation. You don't even have an interrupt, an unblockable attack or a reliable blind...

To sum it up: Most people believe that bringing back the old Silent Scope would fix the problem with high stealth uptime. But it is simple not true... Even before the redesign it was possible to have this amount of stealth. It was basically just better because you had stealth + dodge whenever you need it (at the cost of fluent gameplay)... Now you more or less

waste

energy if you are forced to dodge while Revealed. But that's what most people who just qq don't understand.

I agree that Silent Scope is not the

most broken

mechanic in the game. It is however a mechanic I think most of us can give good commentary/criticism on since I'm assuming the lot of us in this thread are Thief mains.

Stealth is definitely a defensive mechanic as well as an offensive mechanic that is crucial for the Deadeye due to how their Malice expenditure works. They do absolutely need that quick and easy access to stealth. This is why I was glad ANet added a stealth to Deadeye stolen skills (they were borderline useless without it). The issue is that in its current form, there is too much reward for very little risk or investment. It's simply a dumb mechanic that is needlessly frustrating to fight against. Nevermind the fact that the Malice stacking you mentioned doesn't seem to affect the Deadeye the way it should because it is very frequent that they completely ignore its purpose and just outright burst the target from stealth.

I'm also of the opinion that Shadow Arts generally needs to be addressed as it is a key player in the "perma-stealth" issue. I've stated in the past that it is a generally unhealthy traitline that rewards passive gameplay (with the exception of Rending Shade) which ANet generally frowns upon, which is why it is so surprising they haven't touched it. It's in a bizarre limbo where it's useless in some settings but frustrating to fight in others. My point here is I agree with you that this is a multi-faceted issue.

SA needs rework, but it's not mandatory for perms stealth.Main problems with deadeye:

High opening burst.
Easy access to stealth.
Crazy amount of stealth.1st and 3rd point are not bad by themselfs. What makes this combo broken is adding these 2 AND also 2nd point - silent scope, that gives deadeye way to easy reset potential. U just swap to rifle, dodge roll once or twice and reset completely. That's unacceptable to leave this as it is cuz it promotes way to low risk, high reward gameplay.

That pretty much sums up the issue here.

SA is still a poorly balanced trait line though.

This sums up nothing. It just is a list that more or less characterize what defines the current meta: a) have good burst and b) bring enough sustain (and mobility for roaming).

Replace 3 by "Crazy amount of sustain" and you basically have characterized what fighting an engineer feels like... Or replace 3 by "Crazy sustain" and add 4 "Easily apply many boons" and you have described Soulbeast... Oh, how about replacing 3 by "Crazy amount of defensive cds" and add 4 "Ridiculous mobility" and you characterized Mesmer? Should I go on?

This list of so-called "main problems" (for Deadeye) is just a list of things you don't like to deal with and hence just cry for nerfs.

Safandula.8723 · January 18, 2019

@syszery.1592 said:
@Exitus.3297 said:
@Safandula.8723 said:
@Exitus.3297 said:
@syszery.1592 said:
@Exitus.3297 said:
@syszery.1592 said:
@"omgdracula.6345" said:People in here really trying to defend stealth on dodge?
That is the single most broken mechanic I have seen.
You are literally defending something that has no cooldown other than your stamina limitation that gives extreme benefits to the user. Hell it doesn't even have an ICD.

Ok, you must be pretty new to this game, right? a) Stamina is a real restriction and b) Mirage Cloak (1s dodge + can be used while stunned), Soulbeast boon stacking (in particular the damage+sustain resulting from this), Rampage and Holosmith are all perfectly balanced, right?

Yes, Endurance is a restriction. But when you have 3-4 seconds of stealth per dodge to stall the fight, with plenty of ways to increase the flow of Endurance, one has to ask how restrictive it actually is when implemented in this way.

I also find it interesting that you point out that Endurance has restrictions, just to use Mirage Cloak as a counter-example to back up your point when it is also limited to Endurance. Is Mirage Cloak too strong in its current implementation or not? I can imagine you might be equally annoyed by someone arguing "Well, it's limited to Endurance so it's balanced" in order to defend it. Keep in mind, I am fully aware of how frustrating it is to fight a Mirage as any class besides a Thief.

But I digress. Your counter-argument seems to be "These classes over here are equally if not more unbalanced." Perhaps you are correct, but it is irrelevant to this discussion. Each of the classes mentioned have their own threads/discussions on what to do with them.

I didn't mean to give counter examples. I was just referring to the claim that Silent Scope would be

"the single most broken mechanic"

in the game. That's why I mentioned e.g. Mirage Cloak which is in my opinion at least as strong as Stealth on Dodge. But I agree that mentioning Souldbeast and Holosmith is problematic, because it's not one mechanic that makes them so good atm but several skills that functions very well together.

The problem is that Deadeye was just redesigned to function like this: Stack Malice and then execute a stealth attack for a major advantage. But how should this work if you have no good access to stealth? Like e.g. on Shortbow and Sword/Pistol? So just removing the stealth trait would basically make Rifle no longer really fitting the design (yes, you can use Kneel + Sniper's Cover + Free Action + Death's Retreat but that's ridiculous and you would die trying this against any competent opponent...) which would also be stupid because it's

the

Weapon for Deadeyes...

Also, stealth is the only real defensive mechanic in nearly any Deadeye build. I mean (in WvW at least) you can run Acrobatics over Deadly Arts or Critical Strikes but this will significantly lower your damage (which is what many people want, lowering the burst) and one basically only does this to get more frequent use of Silent Scope anyway. And besides this option there is nothing left: No Rifle-skill has a build-in evade (like S/D), block or any kind of damage mitigation. You don't even have an interrupt, an unblockable attack or a reliable blind...

To sum it up: Most people believe that bringing back the old Silent Scope would fix the problem with high stealth uptime. But it is simple not true... Even before the redesign it was possible to have this amount of stealth. It was basically just better because you had stealth + dodge whenever you need it (at the cost of fluent gameplay)... Now you more or less

waste

energy if you are forced to dodge while Revealed. But that's what most people who just qq don't understand.

I agree that Silent Scope is not the

most broken

mechanic in the game. It is however a mechanic I think most of us can give good commentary/criticism on since I'm assuming the lot of us in this thread are Thief mains.

Stealth is definitely a defensive mechanic as well as an offensive mechanic that is crucial for the Deadeye due to how their Malice expenditure works. They do absolutely need that quick and easy access to stealth. This is why I was glad ANet added a stealth to Deadeye stolen skills (they were borderline useless without it). The issue is that in its current form, there is too much reward for very little risk or investment. It's simply a dumb mechanic that is needlessly frustrating to fight against. Nevermind the fact that the Malice stacking you mentioned doesn't seem to affect the Deadeye the way it should because it is very frequent that they completely ignore its purpose and just outright burst the target from stealth.

I'm also of the opinion that Shadow Arts generally needs to be addressed as it is a key player in the "perma-stealth" issue. I've stated in the past that it is a generally unhealthy traitline that rewards passive gameplay (with the exception of Rending Shade) which ANet generally frowns upon, which is why it is so surprising they haven't touched it. It's in a bizarre limbo where it's useless in some settings but frustrating to fight in others. My point here is I agree with you that this is a multi-faceted issue.

SA needs rework, but it's not mandatory for perms stealth.Main problems with deadeye:

High opening burst.
Easy access to stealth.
Crazy amount of stealth.1st and 3rd point are not bad by themselfs. What makes this combo broken is adding these 2 AND also 2nd point - silent scope, that gives deadeye way to easy reset potential. U just swap to rifle, dodge roll once or twice and reset completely. That's unacceptable to leave this as it is cuz it promotes way to low risk, high reward gameplay.

That pretty much sums up the issue here.

SA is still a poorly balanced trait line though.

This sums up nothing. It just is a list that more or less characterize what defines the current meta: a) have good burst and b) bring enough sustain (and mobility for roaming).

Replace 3 by "Crazy amount of sustain" and you basically have characterized what fighting an engineer feels like... Or replace 3 by "Crazy sustain" and add 4 "Easily apply many boons" and you have described Soulbeast... Oh, how about replacing 3 by "Crazy amount of defensive cds" and add 4 "Ridiculous mobility" and you characterized Mesmer? Should I go on?

This list of so-called "main problems" (for Deadeye) is just a list of things you don't like to deal with and hence just cry for nerfs.

Holos and sb have a balance issues, while deadeye and mirage are just trashly designed(or both of this problems).If u tune down the soul beast or holo fighting them won't be a big problem, while mirage with mirage cloak still will be cancer, and deadeye will still be able to reset in every possible situation, until the mechanics won't be changed.There is a difference between numbers and bad design

syszery.1592 · January 18, 2019

@Safandula.8723 said:
@syszery.1592 said:
@Exitus.3297 said:
@Safandula.8723 said:
@Exitus.3297 said:
@syszery.1592 said:
@Exitus.3297 said:
@syszery.1592 said:
@"omgdracula.6345" said:People in here really trying to defend stealth on dodge?
That is the single most broken mechanic I have seen.
You are literally defending something that has no cooldown other than your stamina limitation that gives extreme benefits to the user. Hell it doesn't even have an ICD.

Ok, you must be pretty new to this game, right? a) Stamina is a real restriction and b) Mirage Cloak (1s dodge + can be used while stunned), Soulbeast boon stacking (in particular the damage+sustain resulting from this), Rampage and Holosmith are all perfectly balanced, right?

Yes, Endurance is a restriction. But when you have 3-4 seconds of stealth per dodge to stall the fight, with plenty of ways to increase the flow of Endurance, one has to ask how restrictive it actually is when implemented in this way.

I also find it interesting that you point out that Endurance has restrictions, just to use Mirage Cloak as a counter-example to back up your point when it is also limited to Endurance. Is Mirage Cloak too strong in its current implementation or not? I can imagine you might be equally annoyed by someone arguing "Well, it's limited to Endurance so it's balanced" in order to defend it. Keep in mind, I am fully aware of how frustrating it is to fight a Mirage as any class besides a Thief.

But I digress. Your counter-argument seems to be "These classes over here are equally if not more unbalanced." Perhaps you are correct, but it is irrelevant to this discussion. Each of the classes mentioned have their own threads/discussions on what to do with them.

I didn't mean to give counter examples. I was just referring to the claim that Silent Scope would be

"the single most broken mechanic"

in the game. That's why I mentioned e.g. Mirage Cloak which is in my opinion at least as strong as Stealth on Dodge. But I agree that mentioning Souldbeast and Holosmith is problematic, because it's not one mechanic that makes them so good atm but several skills that functions very well together.

The problem is that Deadeye was just redesigned to function like this: Stack Malice and then execute a stealth attack for a major advantage. But how should this work if you have no good access to stealth? Like e.g. on Shortbow and Sword/Pistol? So just removing the stealth trait would basically make Rifle no longer really fitting the design (yes, you can use Kneel + Sniper's Cover + Free Action + Death's Retreat but that's ridiculous and you would die trying this against any competent opponent...) which would also be stupid because it's

the

Weapon for Deadeyes...

Also, stealth is the only real defensive mechanic in nearly any Deadeye build. I mean (in WvW at least) you can run Acrobatics over Deadly Arts or Critical Strikes but this will significantly lower your damage (which is what many people want, lowering the burst) and one basically only does this to get more frequent use of Silent Scope anyway. And besides this option there is nothing left: No Rifle-skill has a build-in evade (like S/D), block or any kind of damage mitigation. You don't even have an interrupt, an unblockable attack or a reliable blind...

To sum it up: Most people believe that bringing back the old Silent Scope would fix the problem with high stealth uptime. But it is simple not true... Even before the redesign it was possible to have this amount of stealth. It was basically just better because you had stealth + dodge whenever you need it (at the cost of fluent gameplay)... Now you more or less

waste

energy if you are forced to dodge while Revealed. But that's what most people who just qq don't understand.

I agree that Silent Scope is not the

most broken

mechanic in the game. It is however a mechanic I think most of us can give good commentary/criticism on since I'm assuming the lot of us in this thread are Thief mains.

Stealth is definitely a defensive mechanic as well as an offensive mechanic that is crucial for the Deadeye due to how their Malice expenditure works. They do absolutely need that quick and easy access to stealth. This is why I was glad ANet added a stealth to Deadeye stolen skills (they were borderline useless without it). The issue is that in its current form, there is too much reward for very little risk or investment. It's simply a dumb mechanic that is needlessly frustrating to fight against. Nevermind the fact that the Malice stacking you mentioned doesn't seem to affect the Deadeye the way it should because it is very frequent that they completely ignore its purpose and just outright burst the target from stealth.

I'm also of the opinion that Shadow Arts generally needs to be addressed as it is a key player in the "perma-stealth" issue. I've stated in the past that it is a generally unhealthy traitline that rewards passive gameplay (with the exception of Rending Shade) which ANet generally frowns upon, which is why it is so surprising they haven't touched it. It's in a bizarre limbo where it's useless in some settings but frustrating to fight in others. My point here is I agree with you that this is a multi-faceted issue.

SA needs rework, but it's not mandatory for perms stealth.Main problems with deadeye:

High opening burst.
Easy access to stealth.
Crazy amount of stealth.1st and 3rd point are not bad by themselfs. What makes this combo broken is adding these 2 AND also 2nd point - silent scope, that gives deadeye way to easy reset potential. U just swap to rifle, dodge roll once or twice and reset completely. That's unacceptable to leave this as it is cuz it promotes way to low risk, high reward gameplay.

That pretty much sums up the issue here.

SA is still a poorly balanced trait line though.

This sums up nothing. It just is a list that more or less characterize what defines the current meta: a) have good burst and b) bring enough sustain (and mobility for roaming).

Replace 3 by "Crazy amount of sustain" and you basically have characterized what fighting an engineer feels like... Or replace 3 by "Crazy sustain" and add 4 "Easily apply many boons" and you have described Soulbeast... Oh, how about replacing 3 by "Crazy amount of defensive cds" and add 4 "Ridiculous mobility" and you characterized Mesmer? Should I go on?

This list of so-called "main problems" (for Deadeye) is just a list of things you don't like to deal with and hence just cry for nerfs.

Holos and sb have a balance issues, while deadeye and mirage are just trashly designed(or both of this problems).If u tune down the soul beast or holo fighting them won't be a big problem, while mirage with mirage cloak still will be cancer, and deadeye will still be able to reset in every possible situation, until the mechanics won't be changed.There is a difference between numbers and bad design

And what is the problem if someone resets? You also get out of combat, heal to full hp and your skills come off cd... So no one should really get a huge advantage out of that.

omgdracula.6345 · January 18, 2019

@syszery.1592 said:
@Safandula.8723 said:
@syszery.1592 said:
@Exitus.3297 said:
@Safandula.8723 said:
@Exitus.3297 said:
@syszery.1592 said:
@Exitus.3297 said:
@syszery.1592 said:
@"omgdracula.6345" said:People in here really trying to defend stealth on dodge?
That is the single most broken mechanic I have seen.
You are literally defending something that has no cooldown other than your stamina limitation that gives extreme benefits to the user. Hell it doesn't even have an ICD.

Ok, you must be pretty new to this game, right? a) Stamina is a real restriction and b) Mirage Cloak (1s dodge + can be used while stunned), Soulbeast boon stacking (in particular the damage+sustain resulting from this), Rampage and Holosmith are all perfectly balanced, right?

Yes, Endurance is a restriction. But when you have 3-4 seconds of stealth per dodge to stall the fight, with plenty of ways to increase the flow of Endurance, one has to ask how restrictive it actually is when implemented in this way.

I also find it interesting that you point out that Endurance has restrictions, just to use Mirage Cloak as a counter-example to back up your point when it is also limited to Endurance. Is Mirage Cloak too strong in its current implementation or not? I can imagine you might be equally annoyed by someone arguing "Well, it's limited to Endurance so it's balanced" in order to defend it. Keep in mind, I am fully aware of how frustrating it is to fight a Mirage as any class besides a Thief.

But I digress. Your counter-argument seems to be "These classes over here are equally if not more unbalanced." Perhaps you are correct, but it is irrelevant to this discussion. Each of the classes mentioned have their own threads/discussions on what to do with them.

I didn't mean to give counter examples. I was just referring to the claim that Silent Scope would be

"the single most broken mechanic"

in the game. That's why I mentioned e.g. Mirage Cloak which is in my opinion at least as strong as Stealth on Dodge. But I agree that mentioning Souldbeast and Holosmith is problematic, because it's not one mechanic that makes them so good atm but several skills that functions very well together.

The problem is that Deadeye was just redesigned to function like this: Stack Malice and then execute a stealth attack for a major advantage. But how should this work if you have no good access to stealth? Like e.g. on Shortbow and Sword/Pistol? So just removing the stealth trait would basically make Rifle no longer really fitting the design (yes, you can use Kneel + Sniper's Cover + Free Action + Death's Retreat but that's ridiculous and you would die trying this against any competent opponent...) which would also be stupid because it's

the

Weapon for Deadeyes...

Also, stealth is the only real defensive mechanic in nearly any Deadeye build. I mean (in WvW at least) you can run Acrobatics over Deadly Arts or Critical Strikes but this will significantly lower your damage (which is what many people want, lowering the burst) and one basically only does this to get more frequent use of Silent Scope anyway. And besides this option there is nothing left: No Rifle-skill has a build-in evade (like S/D), block or any kind of damage mitigation. You don't even have an interrupt, an unblockable attack or a reliable blind...

To sum it up: Most people believe that bringing back the old Silent Scope would fix the problem with high stealth uptime. But it is simple not true... Even before the redesign it was possible to have this amount of stealth. It was basically just better because you had stealth + dodge whenever you need it (at the cost of fluent gameplay)... Now you more or less

waste

energy if you are forced to dodge while Revealed. But that's what most people who just qq don't understand.

I agree that Silent Scope is not the

most broken

mechanic in the game. It is however a mechanic I think most of us can give good commentary/criticism on since I'm assuming the lot of us in this thread are Thief mains.

Stealth is definitely a defensive mechanic as well as an offensive mechanic that is crucial for the Deadeye due to how their Malice expenditure works. They do absolutely need that quick and easy access to stealth. This is why I was glad ANet added a stealth to Deadeye stolen skills (they were borderline useless without it). The issue is that in its current form, there is too much reward for very little risk or investment. It's simply a dumb mechanic that is needlessly frustrating to fight against. Nevermind the fact that the Malice stacking you mentioned doesn't seem to affect the Deadeye the way it should because it is very frequent that they completely ignore its purpose and just outright burst the target from stealth.

I'm also of the opinion that Shadow Arts generally needs to be addressed as it is a key player in the "perma-stealth" issue. I've stated in the past that it is a generally unhealthy traitline that rewards passive gameplay (with the exception of Rending Shade) which ANet generally frowns upon, which is why it is so surprising they haven't touched it. It's in a bizarre limbo where it's useless in some settings but frustrating to fight in others. My point here is I agree with you that this is a multi-faceted issue.

SA needs rework, but it's not mandatory for perms stealth.Main problems with deadeye:

High opening burst.
Easy access to stealth.
Crazy amount of stealth.1st and 3rd point are not bad by themselfs. What makes this combo broken is adding these 2 AND also 2nd point - silent scope, that gives deadeye way to easy reset potential. U just swap to rifle, dodge roll once or twice and reset completely. That's unacceptable to leave this as it is cuz it promotes way to low risk, high reward gameplay.

That pretty much sums up the issue here.

SA is still a poorly balanced trait line though.

This sums up nothing. It just is a list that more or less characterize what defines the current meta: a) have good burst and b) bring enough sustain (and mobility for roaming).

Replace 3 by "Crazy amount of sustain" and you basically have characterized what fighting an engineer feels like... Or replace 3 by "Crazy sustain" and add 4 "Easily apply many boons" and you have described Soulbeast... Oh, how about replacing 3 by "Crazy amount of defensive cds" and add 4 "Ridiculous mobility" and you characterized Mesmer? Should I go on?

This list of so-called "main problems" (for Deadeye) is just a list of things you don't like to deal with and hence just cry for nerfs.

Holos and sb have a balance issues, while deadeye and mirage are just trashly designed(or both of this problems).If u tune down the soul beast or holo fighting them won't be a big problem, while mirage with mirage cloak still will be cancer, and deadeye will still be able to reset in every possible situation, until the mechanics won't be changed.There is a difference between numbers and bad design

And what is the problem if someone resets? You also get out of combat, heal to full hp and your skills come off cd... So no one should really get a huge advantage out of that.

The problem I think they are bringing up as far as reset is that you can make a mistake and not worry about it. Missed a skill? Reset, Got caught and punished? Reset. Someone got the jump on me? Reset.

Psycoprophet.8107 · January 18, 2019

@omgdracula.6345 said:
@syszery.1592 said:
@Safandula.8723 said:
@syszery.1592 said:
@Exitus.3297 said:
@Safandula.8723 said:
@Exitus.3297 said:
@syszery.1592 said:
@Exitus.3297 said:
@syszery.1592 said:
@omgdracula.6345 said:People in here really trying to defend stealth on dodge?
That is the single most broken mechanic I have seen.
You are literally defending something that has no cooldown other than your stamina limitation that gives extreme benefits to the user. Hell it doesn't even have an ICD.

Ok, you must be pretty new to this game, right? a) Stamina is a real restriction and b) Mirage Cloak (1s dodge + can be used while stunned), Soulbeast boon stacking (in particular the damage+sustain resulting from this), Rampage and Holosmith are all perfectly balanced, right?

Yes, Endurance is a restriction. But when you have 3-4 seconds of stealth per dodge to stall the fight, with plenty of ways to increase the flow of Endurance, one has to ask how restrictive it actually is when implemented in this way.

I also find it interesting that you point out that Endurance has restrictions, just to use Mirage Cloak as a counter-example to back up your point when it is also limited to Endurance. Is Mirage Cloak too strong in its current implementation or not? I can imagine you might be equally annoyed by someone arguing "Well, it's limited to Endurance so it's balanced" in order to defend it. Keep in mind, I am fully aware of how frustrating it is to fight a Mirage as any class besides a Thief.

But I digress. Your counter-argument seems to be "These classes over here are equally if not more unbalanced." Perhaps you are correct, but it is irrelevant to this discussion. Each of the classes mentioned have their own threads/discussions on what to do with them.

I didn't mean to give counter examples. I was just referring to the claim that Silent Scope would be

"the single most broken mechanic"

in the game. That's why I mentioned e.g. Mirage Cloak which is in my opinion at least as strong as Stealth on Dodge. But I agree that mentioning Souldbeast and Holosmith is problematic, because it's not one mechanic that makes them so good atm but several skills that functions very well together.

The problem is that Deadeye was just redesigned to function like this: Stack Malice and then execute a stealth attack for a major advantage. But how should this work if you have no good access to stealth? Like e.g. on Shortbow and Sword/Pistol? So just removing the stealth trait would basically make Rifle no longer really fitting the design (yes, you can use Kneel + Sniper's Cover + Free Action + Death's Retreat but that's ridiculous and you would die trying this against any competent opponent...) which would also be stupid because it's

the

Weapon for Deadeyes...

Also, stealth is the only real defensive mechanic in nearly any Deadeye build. I mean (in WvW at least) you can run Acrobatics over Deadly Arts or Critical Strikes but this will significantly lower your damage (which is what many people want, lowering the burst) and one basically only does this to get more frequent use of Silent Scope anyway. And besides this option there is nothing left: No Rifle-skill has a build-in evade (like S/D), block or any kind of damage mitigation. You don't even have an interrupt, an unblockable attack or a reliable blind...

To sum it up: Most people believe that bringing back the old Silent Scope would fix the problem with high stealth uptime. But it is simple not true... Even before the redesign it was possible to have this amount of stealth. It was basically just better because you had stealth + dodge whenever you need it (at the cost of fluent gameplay)... Now you more or less

waste

energy if you are forced to dodge while Revealed. But that's what most people who just qq don't understand.

I agree that Silent Scope is not the

most broken

mechanic in the game. It is however a mechanic I think most of us can give good commentary/criticism on since I'm assuming the lot of us in this thread are Thief mains.

Stealth is definitely a defensive mechanic as well as an offensive mechanic that is crucial for the Deadeye due to how their Malice expenditure works. They do absolutely need that quick and easy access to stealth. This is why I was glad ANet added a stealth to Deadeye stolen skills (they were borderline useless without it). The issue is that in its current form, there is too much reward for very little risk or investment. It's simply a dumb mechanic that is needlessly frustrating to fight against. Nevermind the fact that the Malice stacking you mentioned doesn't seem to affect the Deadeye the way it should because it is very frequent that they completely ignore its purpose and just outright burst the target from stealth.

I'm also of the opinion that Shadow Arts generally needs to be addressed as it is a key player in the "perma-stealth" issue. I've stated in the past that it is a generally unhealthy traitline that rewards passive gameplay (with the exception of Rending Shade) which ANet generally frowns upon, which is why it is so surprising they haven't touched it. It's in a bizarre limbo where it's useless in some settings but frustrating to fight in others. My point here is I agree with you that this is a multi-faceted issue.

SA needs rework, but it's not mandatory for perms stealth.Main problems with deadeye:

High opening burst.
Easy access to stealth.
Crazy amount of stealth.1st and 3rd point are not bad by themselfs. What makes this combo broken is adding these 2 AND also 2nd point - silent scope, that gives deadeye way to easy reset potential. U just swap to rifle, dodge roll once or twice and reset completely. That's unacceptable to leave this as it is cuz it promotes way to low risk, high reward gameplay.

That pretty much sums up the issue here.

SA is still a poorly balanced trait line though.

This sums up nothing. It just is a list that more or less characterize what defines the current meta: a) have good burst and b) bring enough sustain (and mobility for roaming).

Replace 3 by "Crazy amount of sustain" and you basically have characterized what fighting an engineer feels like... Or replace 3 by "Crazy sustain" and add 4 "Easily apply many boons" and you have described Soulbeast... Oh, how about replacing 3 by "Crazy amount of defensive cds" and add 4 "Ridiculous mobility" and you characterized Mesmer? Should I go on?

This list of so-called "main problems" (for Deadeye) is just a list of things you don't like to deal with and hence just cry for nerfs.

Holos and sb have a balance issues, while deadeye and mirage are just trashly designed(or both of this problems).If u tune down the soul beast or holo fighting them won't be a big problem, while mirage with mirage cloak still will be cancer, and deadeye will still be able to reset in every possible situation, until the mechanics won't be changed.There is a difference between numbers and bad design

And what is the problem if someone resets? You also get out of combat, heal to full hp and your skills come off cd... So no one should really get a huge advantage out of that.

The problem I think they are bringing up as far as reset is that you can make a mistake and not worry about it. Missed a skill? Reset, Got caught and punished? Reset. Someone got the jump on me? Reset.

Issue is if they couldn’t reset no one would play the class. Due to how little damage they can sustain they would have to out play and make zero mistakes every fight to stand a chance at a win in the 1v1 fight.arenet would have to make some changes to make their mistakes a little more forgiving

omgdracula.6345 · January 18, 2019

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:
@omgdracula.6345 said:
@syszery.1592 said:
@Safandula.8723 said:
@syszery.1592 said:
@Exitus.3297 said:
@Safandula.8723 said:
@Exitus.3297 said:
@syszery.1592 said:
@Exitus.3297 said:
@syszery.1592 said:
@omgdracula.6345 said:People in here really trying to defend stealth on dodge?
That is the single most broken mechanic I have seen.
You are literally defending something that has no cooldown other than your stamina limitation that gives extreme benefits to the user. Hell it doesn't even have an ICD.

Ok, you must be pretty new to this game, right? a) Stamina is a real restriction and b) Mirage Cloak (1s dodge + can be used while stunned), Soulbeast boon stacking (in particular the damage+sustain resulting from this), Rampage and Holosmith are all perfectly balanced, right?

Yes, Endurance is a restriction. But when you have 3-4 seconds of stealth per dodge to stall the fight, with plenty of ways to increase the flow of Endurance, one has to ask how restrictive it actually is when implemented in this way.

I also find it interesting that you point out that Endurance has restrictions, just to use Mirage Cloak as a counter-example to back up your point when it is also limited to Endurance. Is Mirage Cloak too strong in its current implementation or not? I can imagine you might be equally annoyed by someone arguing "Well, it's limited to Endurance so it's balanced" in order to defend it. Keep in mind, I am fully aware of how frustrating it is to fight a Mirage as any class besides a Thief.

But I digress. Your counter-argument seems to be "These classes over here are equally if not more unbalanced." Perhaps you are correct, but it is irrelevant to this discussion. Each of the classes mentioned have their own threads/discussions on what to do with them.

I didn't mean to give counter examples. I was just referring to the claim that Silent Scope would be

"the single most broken mechanic"

in the game. That's why I mentioned e.g. Mirage Cloak which is in my opinion at least as strong as Stealth on Dodge. But I agree that mentioning Souldbeast and Holosmith is problematic, because it's not one mechanic that makes them so good atm but several skills that functions very well together.

The problem is that Deadeye was just redesigned to function like this: Stack Malice and then execute a stealth attack for a major advantage. But how should this work if you have no good access to stealth? Like e.g. on Shortbow and Sword/Pistol? So just removing the stealth trait would basically make Rifle no longer really fitting the design (yes, you can use Kneel + Sniper's Cover + Free Action + Death's Retreat but that's ridiculous and you would die trying this against any competent opponent...) which would also be stupid because it's

the

Weapon for Deadeyes...

Also, stealth is the only real defensive mechanic in nearly any Deadeye build. I mean (in WvW at least) you can run Acrobatics over Deadly Arts or Critical Strikes but this will significantly lower your damage (which is what many people want, lowering the burst) and one basically only does this to get more frequent use of Silent Scope anyway. And besides this option there is nothing left: No Rifle-skill has a build-in evade (like S/D), block or any kind of damage mitigation. You don't even have an interrupt, an unblockable attack or a reliable blind...

To sum it up: Most people believe that bringing back the old Silent Scope would fix the problem with high stealth uptime. But it is simple not true... Even before the redesign it was possible to have this amount of stealth. It was basically just better because you had stealth + dodge whenever you need it (at the cost of fluent gameplay)... Now you more or less

waste

energy if you are forced to dodge while Revealed. But that's what most people who just qq don't understand.

I agree that Silent Scope is not the

most broken

mechanic in the game. It is however a mechanic I think most of us can give good commentary/criticism on since I'm assuming the lot of us in this thread are Thief mains.

Stealth is definitely a defensive mechanic as well as an offensive mechanic that is crucial for the Deadeye due to how their Malice expenditure works. They do absolutely need that quick and easy access to stealth. This is why I was glad ANet added a stealth to Deadeye stolen skills (they were borderline useless without it). The issue is that in its current form, there is too much reward for very little risk or investment. It's simply a dumb mechanic that is needlessly frustrating to fight against. Nevermind the fact that the Malice stacking you mentioned doesn't seem to affect the Deadeye the way it should because it is very frequent that they completely ignore its purpose and just outright burst the target from stealth.

I'm also of the opinion that Shadow Arts generally needs to be addressed as it is a key player in the "perma-stealth" issue. I've stated in the past that it is a generally unhealthy traitline that rewards passive gameplay (with the exception of Rending Shade) which ANet generally frowns upon, which is why it is so surprising they haven't touched it. It's in a bizarre limbo where it's useless in some settings but frustrating to fight in others. My point here is I agree with you that this is a multi-faceted issue.

SA needs rework, but it's not mandatory for perms stealth.Main problems with deadeye:

High opening burst.
Easy access to stealth.
Crazy amount of stealth.1st and 3rd point are not bad by themselfs. What makes this combo broken is adding these 2 AND also 2nd point - silent scope, that gives deadeye way to easy reset potential. U just swap to rifle, dodge roll once or twice and reset completely. That's unacceptable to leave this as it is cuz it promotes way to low risk, high reward gameplay.

That pretty much sums up the issue here.

SA is still a poorly balanced trait line though.

This sums up nothing. It just is a list that more or less characterize what defines the current meta: a) have good burst and b) bring enough sustain (and mobility for roaming).

Replace 3 by "Crazy amount of sustain" and you basically have characterized what fighting an engineer feels like... Or replace 3 by "Crazy sustain" and add 4 "Easily apply many boons" and you have described Soulbeast... Oh, how about replacing 3 by "Crazy amount of defensive cds" and add 4 "Ridiculous mobility" and you characterized Mesmer? Should I go on?

This list of so-called "main problems" (for Deadeye) is just a list of things you don't like to deal with and hence just cry for nerfs.

Holos and sb have a balance issues, while deadeye and mirage are just trashly designed(or both of this problems).If u tune down the soul beast or holo fighting them won't be a big problem, while mirage with mirage cloak still will be cancer, and deadeye will still be able to reset in every possible situation, until the mechanics won't be changed.There is a difference between numbers and bad design

And what is the problem if someone resets? You also get out of combat, heal to full hp and your skills come off cd... So no one should really get a huge advantage out of that.

The problem I think they are bringing up as far as reset is that you can make a mistake and not worry about it. Missed a skill? Reset, Got caught and punished? Reset. Someone got the jump on me? Reset.

Issue is if they couldn’t reset no one would play the class. Due to how little damage they can sustain they would have to out play and make zero mistakes every fight to stand a chance at a win in the 1v1 fight.arenet would have to make some changes to make their mistakes a little more forgiving

Yea but DE shouldn't be 1v1ing regardless vs taking out a target quickly. IMHO. I look at pvp differently if I make a mistake I expect to get punished not just reset when I want to if I mess up etc. If a player capitalizes on my misplay then they are the better player. But isn't that how it should be? The player that makes the least mistakes should win. That goes for any game. RTS, FPS, Fighting etc.

syszery.1592 · January 18, 2019

@omgdracula.6345 said:
@Psycoprophet.8107 said:
@omgdracula.6345 said:
@syszery.1592 said:
@Safandula.8723 said:
@syszery.1592 said:
@Exitus.3297 said:
@Safandula.8723 said:
@Exitus.3297 said:
@syszery.1592 said:
@Exitus.3297 said:
@syszery.1592 said:
@omgdracula.6345 said:People in here really trying to defend stealth on dodge?
That is the single most broken mechanic I have seen.
You are literally defending something that has no cooldown other than your stamina limitation that gives extreme benefits to the user. Hell it doesn't even have an ICD.

Ok, you must be pretty new to this game, right? a) Stamina is a real restriction and b) Mirage Cloak (1s dodge + can be used while stunned), Soulbeast boon stacking (in particular the damage+sustain resulting from this), Rampage and Holosmith are all perfectly balanced, right?

Yes, Endurance is a restriction. But when you have 3-4 seconds of stealth per dodge to stall the fight, with plenty of ways to increase the flow of Endurance, one has to ask how restrictive it actually is when implemented in this way.

I also find it interesting that you point out that Endurance has restrictions, just to use Mirage Cloak as a counter-example to back up your point when it is also limited to Endurance. Is Mirage Cloak too strong in its current implementation or not? I can imagine you might be equally annoyed by someone arguing "Well, it's limited to Endurance so it's balanced" in order to defend it. Keep in mind, I am fully aware of how frustrating it is to fight a Mirage as any class besides a Thief.

But I digress. Your counter-argument seems to be "These classes over here are equally if not more unbalanced." Perhaps you are correct, but it is irrelevant to this discussion. Each of the classes mentioned have their own threads/discussions on what to do with them.

I didn't mean to give counter examples. I was just referring to the claim that Silent Scope would be

"the single most broken mechanic"

in the game. That's why I mentioned e.g. Mirage Cloak which is in my opinion at least as strong as Stealth on Dodge. But I agree that mentioning Souldbeast and Holosmith is problematic, because it's not one mechanic that makes them so good atm but several skills that functions very well together.

The problem is that Deadeye was just redesigned to function like this: Stack Malice and then execute a stealth attack for a major advantage. But how should this work if you have no good access to stealth? Like e.g. on Shortbow and Sword/Pistol? So just removing the stealth trait would basically make Rifle no longer really fitting the design (yes, you can use Kneel + Sniper's Cover + Free Action + Death's Retreat but that's ridiculous and you would die trying this against any competent opponent...) which would also be stupid because it's

the

Weapon for Deadeyes...

Also, stealth is the only real defensive mechanic in nearly any Deadeye build. I mean (in WvW at least) you can run Acrobatics over Deadly Arts or Critical Strikes but this will significantly lower your damage (which is what many people want, lowering the burst) and one basically only does this to get more frequent use of Silent Scope anyway. And besides this option there is nothing left: No Rifle-skill has a build-in evade (like S/D), block or any kind of damage mitigation. You don't even have an interrupt, an unblockable attack or a reliable blind...

To sum it up: Most people believe that bringing back the old Silent Scope would fix the problem with high stealth uptime. But it is simple not true... Even before the redesign it was possible to have this amount of stealth. It was basically just better because you had stealth + dodge whenever you need it (at the cost of fluent gameplay)... Now you more or less

waste

energy if you are forced to dodge while Revealed. But that's what most people who just qq don't understand.

I agree that Silent Scope is not the

most broken

mechanic in the game. It is however a mechanic I think most of us can give good commentary/criticism on since I'm assuming the lot of us in this thread are Thief mains.

Stealth is definitely a defensive mechanic as well as an offensive mechanic that is crucial for the Deadeye due to how their Malice expenditure works. They do absolutely need that quick and easy access to stealth. This is why I was glad ANet added a stealth to Deadeye stolen skills (they were borderline useless without it). The issue is that in its current form, there is too much reward for very little risk or investment. It's simply a dumb mechanic that is needlessly frustrating to fight against. Nevermind the fact that the Malice stacking you mentioned doesn't seem to affect the Deadeye the way it should because it is very frequent that they completely ignore its purpose and just outright burst the target from stealth.

I'm also of the opinion that Shadow Arts generally needs to be addressed as it is a key player in the "perma-stealth" issue. I've stated in the past that it is a generally unhealthy traitline that rewards passive gameplay (with the exception of Rending Shade) which ANet generally frowns upon, which is why it is so surprising they haven't touched it. It's in a bizarre limbo where it's useless in some settings but frustrating to fight in others. My point here is I agree with you that this is a multi-faceted issue.

SA needs rework, but it's not mandatory for perms stealth.Main problems with deadeye:

High opening burst.
Easy access to stealth.
Crazy amount of stealth.1st and 3rd point are not bad by themselfs. What makes this combo broken is adding these 2 AND also 2nd point - silent scope, that gives deadeye way to easy reset potential. U just swap to rifle, dodge roll once or twice and reset completely. That's unacceptable to leave this as it is cuz it promotes way to low risk, high reward gameplay.