Small Change ideas for Deadeye to make them more Healthy

[bq pd.2148]

@Exitus.3297 said:

@saerni.2584 said:

Oops, my mistake. I, however, disagree that one stack of malice in mark is bad. It doesn’t add enough damage to matter in most cases so why change it? And if the same per stack is too high just change the % bonus instead.

Edit: I do think dodge stealth has issues but I’m not sure if you can just get rid of it. Maybe lower the duration of stealth granted by the dodge? Seems more fair.

If they were trying to min-max for burst, it would help a bit. It would lower the first Death's Judgement by 20% (iirc) and Backstab by 10%. To give an example, there is (or was) a Deadeye Backstab build in WvW that is designed to literally 1-shot from stealth with the combination of damage boosters from BQoBK (200 power) Malicious Intent (10% damage) and Assassin's Signet active. If the one-shot failed, the Deadeye would still have Quickness to auto-attack them to death. Moving around where the Quickness and Malice go with how these 2 traits interacted would hopefully bring it down to a more reasonable level. But that is just one example.

runes of durability, still widely used here applies protection on hit. but that protection is applied before the hit that triggers it and with rune change now 100% at inital hit. just runing such a rune and having more than ~13k hp(the rune itself provides HP aswell) would make it pretty much impossible to die to that.so they nerfed that already with the rune changes.

i havent seen many of em tho, mostly people would still run rifle before and after the changes as its simply better. dagger on the back bar for execute. maybe its just people in EU running too tanky on average for such a build to be good.

[Turk.5460]

@Caedmon.6798 said:Play DE without Silent scope equipped,go run in wvw or w/e.Tell me how much fun you'l have with no stealth on dodge,its def not gonna break the spec ! Oh no,not at all.Im sure you'l be pew pewing everything to deth without it !

It is still fun, no it doesn't break the spec. Just because you can't see yourself performing without that crutch doesn't mean other players can't perform without it as well. Traits can be swapped on the fly, especially as a DE that can choose its engagements far more often than not. It's even easier now that the hero panel saves which tab you were on after closing it.

I enter fights without Silent Scope equipped fairly often when I want that extra 5-6% damage from premed, it just depends on the opponent I'm facing. I won't change out of Silent Scope if I'm facing a Mesmer, Ranger, or Rev, but everything else the 2x stolen abilities that still give stealth even if they don't hit the target is more than enough when combined with 2x stealth from Shadow Meld. And perhaps another stealth from a utility if you wish (I don't use another, the mark abilities and Shadow Meld are enough for me). I don't swap out of it against those 3 because against them it is more useful than the other 2 traits in that tier - but it is not required to defeat them.

[Caedmon.6798]

@Turk.5460 said:

@"Caedmon.6798" said:Play DE without Silent scope equipped,go run in wvw or w/e.Tell me how much fun you'l have with no stealth on dodge,its def not gonna break the spec ! Oh no,not at all.Im sure you'l be pew pewing everything to deth without it !

It is still fun, no it doesn't break the spec. Just because

you

can't see yourself performing without that crutch doesn't mean other players can't perform without it as well. Traits can be swapped on the fly, especially as a DE that can choose its engagements far more often than not. It's even easier now that the hero panel saves which tab you were on after closing it.

I enter fights without Silent Scope equipped fairly often when I want that extra 5-6% damage from premed, it just depends on the opponent I'm facing. I won't change out of Silent Scope if I'm facing a Mesmer, Ranger, or Rev, but everything else the 2x stolen abilities that still give stealth even if they don't hit the target is more than enough when combined with 2x stealth from Shadow Meld. And perhaps another stealth from a utility if you wish (I don't use another, the mark abilities and Shadow Meld are enough for me). I don't swap out of it against those 3 because against them it is more useful than the other 2 traits in that tier -

but it is not required to defeat them

.

Yes if you fight someone being afk or having no clue how to pvp,sure youl win easy without silent scope, 1on1.I wasnt speaking about "My" personal performance, im looking at it from how the spec is Meant to be played.Its also fun how you only talk about 1on1 experiences stating it wont break the spec while i mentioned WvW where theres ppl running in groups solely.

[Jack Redline.5379]

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:Lastly, I don't see a reason to nerf deadeye at all given soulbeast, mirage and holosmith all have much more powerful builds at this point for roaming and decapping. Feel free to try to change my mind, I just don't see the justification as is.

i think its more that many here do think, that deadeye is the only thing in the way of making core/daredevil better and thats what they actually want. yet instead of asking for changes that would buff these without affecting deadeye, they ask to nerf deadeye as if anet would automatically buff core/daredevil then ..pretty delusional.

DUDE wat? We were asking Anet to buff DD and Cor since forever. And Anet did nothing but nerfed us and buffed DE. We were asking for buff thousands of times nothign happened. So it is obvious since DE is elite of thief that we want it to get nerfed so DD and Core look more meaningfull again. And personally i hate Deadeyes so i do it for one more reason. But if one of your elites is overshadowing all other elites of your proffesion it needs to be nerfed so other elites also can stay alive. That is logical.But DE's will constantly defend themselves with some almost not valid points that they are squishy and that they need stealth cuz they have no utility and that they are hated.Well vast majority of DE's are simply cancerously abusing their stealth. Mainly in PVP. I dont paly WvW so i cant tell and frankly i dont care we want these changes for PVP not WvW. Also all those points De's make can be countered by lets say running some other stats and not glass canons. Or trait diferently. But ppl will simply blindly follow meta not trying a single bit and then ppl hate themDe meta builds are the best of the best that is why they are meta and since De is not hard to play simply using meta will carry noobs to legendary tiers and that is why ppl hate them. Cuz it doesnt really require any skill and ppl who want to play somethign else have to try hard every game to reach even god damn plat.

[bq pd.2148]

@Jack Redline.5379 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:Lastly, I don't see a reason to nerf deadeye at all given soulbeast, mirage and holosmith all have much more powerful builds at this point for roaming and decapping. Feel free to try to change my mind, I just don't see the justification as is.

i think its more that many here do think, that deadeye is the only thing in the way of making core/daredevil better and thats what they actually want. yet instead of asking for changes that would buff these without affecting deadeye, they ask to nerf deadeye as if anet would automatically buff core/daredevil then ..pretty delusional.

DUDE wat? We were asking Anet to buff DD and Cor since forever. And Anet did nothing but nerfed us and buffed DE. We were asking for buff thousands of times nothign happened. So it is obvious since DE is elite of thief that we want it to get nerfed so DD and Core look more meaningfull again. And personally i hate Deadeyes so i do it for one more reason. But if one of your elites is overshadowing all other elites of your proffesion it needs to be nerfed so other elites also can stay alive. That is logical.that is not logical at all. core/DD wont be any better if you nerf DE.But DE's will constantly defend themselves with some almost not valid points that they are squishy and that they need stealth cuz they have no utility and that they are hated.Well vast majority of DE's are simply cancerously abusing their stealth. Mainly in PVP. I dont paly WvW so i cant tell and frankly i dont care we want these changes for PVP not WvW. Also all those points De's make can be countered by lets say running some other stats and not glass canons. Or trait diferently. But ppl will simply blindly follow meta not trying a single bit and then ppl hate themnow this part is very confusing, not sure what you want to tell me with that.De meta builds are the best of the best that is why they are meta and since De is not hard to play simply using meta will carry noobs to legendary tiers and that is why ppl hate them. Cuz it doesnt really require any skill and ppl who want to play somethign else have to try hard every game to reach even god kitten plat.and here i thought s/d was still meta.

[Turk.5460]

@Caedmon.6798 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@Caedmon.6798 said:Play DE without Silent scope equipped,go run in wvw or w/e.Tell me how much fun you'l have with no stealth on dodge,its def not gonna break the spec ! Oh no,not at all.Im sure you'l be pew pewing everything to deth without it !

It is still fun, no it doesn't break the spec. Just because

you

can't see yourself performing without that crutch doesn't mean other players can't perform without it as well. Traits can be swapped on the fly, especially as a DE that can choose its engagements far more often than not. It's even easier now that the hero panel saves which tab you were on after closing it.

I enter fights without Silent Scope equipped fairly often when I want that extra 5-6% damage from premed, it just depends on the opponent I'm facing. I won't change out of Silent Scope if I'm facing a Mesmer, Ranger, or Rev, but everything else the 2x stolen abilities that still give stealth even if they don't hit the target is more than enough when combined with 2x stealth from Shadow Meld. And perhaps another stealth from a utility if you wish (I don't use another, the mark abilities and Shadow Meld are enough for me). I don't swap out of it against those 3 because against them it is more useful than the other 2 traits in that tier -

but it is not required to defeat them

.

Yes if you fight someone being afk or having no clue how to pvp,sure youl win easy without silent scope, 1on1.I wasnt speaking about "My" personal performance, im looking at it from how the spec is Meant to be played.Its also fun how you only talk about 1on1 experiences stating it wont break the spec while i mentioned WvW where theres ppl running in groups solely.

I'm sorry that you haven't learned how to play without Silent Scope? The spec is meant to be played how the player wants it to be played. Obviously you are doing something wrong if you cannot compete without that one trait to hold your hand.

Its also funny how you think I was only talking about 1on1 when I made no such claim that these were only 1on1 encounters. It's even funnier that you think WvW is where people rune solely in groups, which by the way only weakens your original argument. If you are part of a group then the damage increase from premeditation is often more valuable than Silent Scope, since a single Shadow Meld or Mark Ability is enough to drop target and lose focus. Are you that insecure that you can't take simple criticism and respond in a civil manner? Please try to have a discussion this time, thanks.

[Elxdark.9702]

the 3 reasons why deadeye is now really dumb are

• Stealth on dodge
• Binding Shadow
• Death's Judgment

Add a 5 second icd for stealth on dodge or just back to the old trait.Make binding shadow only available when out of stealth to prevent one shot mechanics that you can't counterplay. Or Casting this skill reveals you for 4 seconds.Make Death's Judgment a F3 skill, you can only use it when you have 5 or more malice.(put cursed bullet back to stealth attack)

After coming back for a few weeks, I can safely say that this version of deadeye is really easy and extremely rewarding without any punishment.I don't think and of you "deadeye mains" remember how the spec used to be before the rework when it was annoying but at least it required more brain cells to play it correctly, right now it's just another noob stomper spec that u can learn in 1 week.

[Dahkeus.8243]

@"dDuff.3860" said:3 straight nerfs to deadeye without considerable amount of reasons behind them,Stealth on dodge is not caancerous — can't agree with you on that. Mind provide reasoning, why?

You'd better thought of how to change traits that are not used in pvp, to make them compete with "meta" picks.Like:Fire for effect —In addition to its current effect, also effect from your stolen item applied in aoe around you and your marked target.

Your suggestions are unjustified and not well-thought. Dislike.

Stealth on dodge is absolutely terrible for the game. It's spammable stealth with no counterplay that doesn't take up any skill slots. Other thief builds either have stealth that can be interrupted or that comes with some degree of a cooldown.

[Jack Redline.5379]

@MUDse.7623 said:that is not logical at all. core/DD wont be any better if you nerf DE.

I didnt say it is about buffing core and DD by nerfig DEit is about creating more valid possibilitiesatm main choice for thief in Endgame content PvP and WvW would be DE since it is the most valid oneDD and core are atm played by those who are either stubborn enough to play it and not switch or by those who already mastered them or at least got to the level when they can get acceptable results - this is not because DD and core are strong it is because the players are good

now this part is very confusing, not sure what you want to tell me with that.

It is explanation why ppl want to nerf DE except for the one listed above. DE's are almost always being cancerous they salt ppl if someone beast them they are gonna cry about it all game and also they are dragging ppl away from core and DD which would be maybe a little small detail for why thieves want it to be nerfed.Also it was comparison to how DD/core are different from DE in terms of playstyle. For DE you only need Meta for DD/core you need good build mostly off meta one you come up with and skill

and here i thought s/d was still meta.

yes S/d core thief which is1st squishy cannon2nd countered harder than fist hitting wall3rd requires A LOT of skill to play well.I saw plenty of S/d core thieves trying to fight ppl even me. I think only 2 of them were able to kill me (i state it as examlpe) in 1v1s/d is +1 build which is meta only because it can +1 rly wellDE is straight up 1v1 maybe even 1v5 if he is goodthat is a big difference.

[kash.9213]

@Dahkeus.8243 said:

@"dDuff.3860" said:3 straight nerfs to deadeye without considerable amount of reasons behind them,Stealth on dodge is not caancerous — can't agree with you on that. Mind provide reasoning, why?

You'd better thought of how to change traits that are not used in pvp, to make them compete with "meta" picks.Like:Fire for effect —In addition to its current effect, also effect from your stolen item applied in aoe around you and your marked target.

Your suggestions are unjustified and not well-thought. Dislike.

Stealth on dodge is absolutely terrible for the game. It's spammable stealth with no counterplay that doesn't take up any skill slots. Other thief builds either have stealth that can be interrupted or that comes with some degree of a cooldown.

Do you want to go through the game and delete everything that actually has no counterplay and can basically be spammable? Stealth on dodge would likely survive that purge like it or not. The problem I have with Stealth on dodge isn't that there's no counter play, there is, it's that it gives an immediate free counter for what should be a defense you have to use in response to their pressure. I will have only used endurance to get a Death's Judgment which could otherwise be a 5-6 Initiative cost and traited can strip some of their defense where they likely had to spend cooldowns or skill resource to pressure me into a dodge.

In actual use in WvW, it's strong, but other builds and the abundance of circles and other stuff that will inundate you in a split second are stronger. And, we don't have actual spammable anything, especially with no counter play to sustain through all that. I'd happily take a black powder on dodge instead to tack on some cost to it but any further than that and it's overboard and most people on this forum know that or should.

[Dahkeus.8243]

@kash.9213 said:

@Dahkeus.8243 said:

@"dDuff.3860" said:3 straight nerfs to deadeye without considerable amount of reasons behind them,Stealth on dodge is not caancerous — can't agree with you on that. Mind provide reasoning, why?

You'd better thought of how to change traits that are not used in pvp, to make them compete with "meta" picks.Like:Fire for effect —In addition to its current effect, also effect from your stolen item applied in aoe around you and your marked target.

Your suggestions are unjustified and not well-thought. Dislike.

Stealth on dodge is absolutely terrible for the game. It's spammable stealth with no counterplay that doesn't take up any skill slots. Other thief builds either have stealth that can be interrupted or that comes with some degree of a cooldown.

Do you want to go through the game and delete everything that actually has no counterplay and can basically be spammable? Stealth on dodge would likely survive that purge like it or not. The problem I have with Stealth on dodge isn't that there's no counter play, there is, it's that it gives an immediate free counter for what should be a defense you have to use in response to their pressure. I will have only used endurance to get a Death's Judgment which could otherwise be a 5-6 Initiative cost and traited can strip some of their defense where they likely had to spend cooldowns or skill resource to pressure me into a dodge.

In actual use in WvW, it's strong, but other builds and the abundance of circles and other stuff that will inundate you in a split second are stronger. And, we don't have actual spammable anything, especially with no counter play to sustain through all that. I'd happily take a black powder on dodge instead to tack on some cost to it but any further than that and it's overboard and most people on this forum know that or should.

Your logic doesn't make any sense. Just because I want the addition of spammable stealth with no counterplay does not mean that I want to delete anything else. It wouldn't matter, even if I did. The existence of other bad things doesn't make another bad thing ok. Didn't your momma ever teach you that two wrongs don't make a right?

And there wasn't anything about my argument that had anything to do with rifle Deadeyes being overpowered. It's bad design, regardless of how well it performs. There are better ways to give Deadeyes the stealth they need and they certainly don't need this much.

[kash.9213]

@Dahkeus.8243 said:

@kash.9213 said:

@Dahkeus.8243 said:

@"dDuff.3860" said:3 straight nerfs to deadeye without considerable amount of reasons behind them,Stealth on dodge is not caancerous — can't agree with you on that. Mind provide reasoning, why?

You'd better thought of how to change traits that are not used in pvp, to make them compete with "meta" picks.Like:Fire for effect —In addition to its current effect, also effect from your stolen item applied in aoe around you and your marked target.

Your suggestions are unjustified and not well-thought. Dislike.

Stealth on dodge is absolutely terrible for the game. It's spammable stealth with no counterplay that doesn't take up any skill slots. Other thief builds either have stealth that can be interrupted or that comes with some degree of a cooldown.

Do you want to go through the game and delete everything that actually has no counterplay and can basically be spammable? Stealth on dodge would likely survive that purge like it or not. The problem I have with Stealth on dodge isn't that there's no counter play, there is, it's that it gives an immediate free counter for what should be a defense you have to use in response to their pressure. I will have only used endurance to get a Death's Judgment which could otherwise be a 5-6 Initiative cost and traited can strip some of their defense where they likely had to spend cooldowns or skill resource to pressure me into a dodge.

In actual use in WvW, it's strong, but other builds and the abundance of circles and other stuff that will inundate you in a split second are stronger. And, we don't have actual spammable anything, especially with no counter play to sustain through all that. I'd happily take a black powder on dodge instead to tack on some cost to it but any further than that and it's overboard and most people on this forum know that or should.

Your logic doesn't make any sense. Just because I want the addition of spammable stealth with no counterplay does not mean that I want to delete anything else. It wouldn't matter, even if I did. The existence of other bad things doesn't make another bad thing ok.

Didn't your momma ever teach you

that two wrongs don't make a right?

And there wasn't anything about my argument that had anything to do with rifle Deadeyes being overpowered. It's bad design, regardless of how well it performs. There are better ways to give Deadeyes the stealth they need and they certainly don't need this much.

Is there some other weapon that we can stealth on dodge with, what other weapon or build were you talking about? You're saying take away Silent Scope because it's totally bad somehow and not just a little out of wack but we'll leave anything else in the game that warrants the use of it currently. I taught myself that not everything is right or wrong and not everything is either/or.

[Dahkeus.8243]

@kash.9213 said:

@Dahkeus.8243 said:

@kash.9213 said:

@Dahkeus.8243 said:

@"dDuff.3860" said:3 straight nerfs to deadeye without considerable amount of reasons behind them,Stealth on dodge is not caancerous — can't agree with you on that. Mind provide reasoning, why?

You'd better thought of how to change traits that are not used in pvp, to make them compete with "meta" picks.Like:Fire for effect —In addition to its current effect, also effect from your stolen item applied in aoe around you and your marked target.

Your suggestions are unjustified and not well-thought. Dislike.

Stealth on dodge is absolutely terrible for the game. It's spammable stealth with no counterplay that doesn't take up any skill slots. Other thief builds either have stealth that can be interrupted or that comes with some degree of a cooldown.

Do you want to go through the game and delete everything that actually has no counterplay and can basically be spammable? Stealth on dodge would likely survive that purge like it or not. The problem I have with Stealth on dodge isn't that there's no counter play, there is, it's that it gives an immediate free counter for what should be a defense you have to use in response to their pressure. I will have only used endurance to get a Death's Judgment which could otherwise be a 5-6 Initiative cost and traited can strip some of their defense where they likely had to spend cooldowns or skill resource to pressure me into a dodge.

In actual use in WvW, it's strong, but other builds and the abundance of circles and other stuff that will inundate you in a split second are stronger. And, we don't have actual spammable anything, especially with no counter play to sustain through all that. I'd happily take a black powder on dodge instead to tack on some cost to it but any further than that and it's overboard and most people on this forum know that or should.

Your logic doesn't make any sense. Just because I want the addition of spammable stealth with no counterplay does not mean that I want to delete anything else. It wouldn't matter, even if I did. The existence of other bad things doesn't make another bad thing ok.

Didn't your momma ever teach you

that two wrongs don't make a right?

And there wasn't anything about my argument that had anything to do with rifle Deadeyes being overpowered. It's bad design, regardless of how well it performs. There are better ways to give Deadeyes the stealth they need and they certainly don't need this much.

Is there some other weapon that we can stealth on dodge with, what other weapon or build were you talking about? You're saying take away Silent Scope because it's totally bad somehow and not just a little out of wack but we'll leave anything else in the game that warrants the use of it currently. I taught myself that not everything is right or wrong and not everything is either/or.

What does stealth on dodge have to do with any other weapon? Stealth on dodge is bad for any weapon.

I’m saying remove it and provide the additional stealth for rifle in a better way. Change a weapon skill (such as 4) to provide stealth so that it’s initiative restricted and can’t be spammed as much without hurting damage. Or give a free stealth ability after stolen skills are used.

There are better ways to give additional stealth to rifle without making the build a mindless spammable, unavoidable escape. It’s bad design and the devs can do better. There’s already enough cheesy builds and the devs have nerfed many others out of existence already. This is a step in the wrong direction.

[syszery.1592]

@"Elxdark.9702" said:the 3 reasons why deadeye is now really dumb are

• Stealth on dodge
• Binding Shadow
• Death's Judgment

Add a 5 second icd for stealth on dodge or just back to the old trait.

Why only ICD on Silent Scope? To put it in line with similar traits then there should also be ICD on Unhindered Combatant/Bounding Dodger/Lotus Training/Expeditious Dodger and all the traits from other classes like mirage etc.

Make binding shadow only available when out of stealth to prevent one shot mechanics that you can't counterplay. Or Casting this skill reveals you for 4 seconds.

A class that is designed around stealth (depending on the build it's used heavily, moderately or just situationally - but every build can utilize it) should really have a skill that is not usable while stealthed? This does not make sense...

Make Death's Judgment a F3 skill, you can only use it when you have 5 or more malice.(put cursed bullet back to stealth attack)

I am not sure about your F3 idea but: Yes, please, give us CB back :+1:

After coming back for a few weeks, I can safely say that this version of deadeye is really easy and extremely rewarding without any punishment.I don't think and of you "deadeye mains" remember how the spec used to be before the rework when it was annoying but at least it required more brain cells to play it correctly, right now it's just another noob stomper spec that u can learn in 1 week.

You can get good enough with any build in less than two hours if your goal is to just stomp noobs...

[Elxdark.9702]

@syszery.1592 said:

@"Elxdark.9702" said:the 3 reasons why deadeye is now really dumb are

• Stealth on dodge
• Binding Shadow
• Death's Judgment

Add a 5 second icd for stealth on dodge or just back to the old trait.

Why only ICD on Silent Scope? To put it in line with similar traits then there should also be ICD on Unhindered Combatant/Bounding Dodger/Lotus Training/Expeditious Dodger and all the traits from other classes like mirage etc.

Because it doesn't have counterplay, all the dodges you named they all have some kind of counterplay and they all have been nerfed in some way.

Make binding shadow only available when out of stealth to prevent one shot mechanics that you can't counterplay. Or Casting this skill reveals you for 4 seconds.

A class that is designed around stealth (depending on the build it's used heavily, moderately or just situationally - but every build can utilize it) should really have a skill that is not usable while stealthed? This does not make sense...

Did you even read what I said? again this skill doesn't have any counterplay if you can't see the animation, it's a 3 second KNOCKDOWN + immobilize from stealth???????? tell me how can I prevent this skill if I don't the the deadeye coming.

Make Death's Judgment a F3 skill, you can only use it when you have 5 or more malice.(put cursed bullet back to stealth attack)

I am not sure about your F3 idea but: Yes, please, give us CB back :+1:

After coming back for a few weeks, I can safely say that this version of deadeye is really easy and extremely rewarding without any punishment.I don't think and of you "deadeye mains" remember how the spec used to be before the rework when it was annoying but at least it required more brain cells to play it correctly, right now it's just another noob stomper spec that u can learn in 1 week.

You can get good enough with any build in less than two hours if your goal is to just stomp noobs...I don't know what game mode you play, I play ranked and the best way to win ranked games is not being necessary good at the game but abuse specs/builds like deadeye which are very easy to use and have an insane amount of instant damage that can kill any player in fact if they are not awareness of your presence aka one shot builds.Good players already have problems dealing with this class, what's left for new people or bad players.. nothing but a stomp.

[bq pd.2148]

@Elxdark.9702 said:

Make binding shadow only available when out of stealth to prevent one shot mechanics that you can't counterplay. Or Casting this skill reveals you for 4 seconds.

A class that is designed around stealth (depending on the build it's used heavily, moderately or just situationally - but every build can utilize it) should really have a skill that is not usable while stealthed? This does not make sense...

Did you even read what I said? again this skill doesn't have any counterplay if you can't see the animation, it's a 3 second KNOCKDOWN + immobilize from stealth???????? tell me how can I prevent this skill if I don't the the deadeye coming.

so your issue is that the animation is hidden, thats why it shouldnt be used from stealth?why not simply ask for a visible animation regardless of thieves visibility?

[Safandula.8723]

All the deadeyes will quit the game if this profession will get tuned down to healthy. All defending of DE is silly and unreasonable as I see

[syszery.1592]

@"Elxdark.9702" said:Because it doesn't have counterplay, all the dodges you named they all have some kind of counterplay and they all have been nerfed in some way.

This is not true: If you time your attack well, you can just make it hit the moment when dodge roll ends and then just spam cc/aoe at that point. Either the thief uses another defensive skill or he takes all the damage. And how do you counter e. g. Mirage Cloak?

Did you even read what I said? again this skill doesn't have any counterplay if you can't see the animation, it's a 3 second KNOCKDOWN + immobilize from stealth???????? tell me how can I prevent this skill if I don't the the deadeye coming.

Your argument is simply false. There is counter play. The easiest way to avoid being hit is just dodge the skill (dodge roll, Distortion, Instant Reflexes,...). Before you start with "what you can't see you can't dodge": Yes, but then basically all attacks from stealth (like Backstab or even an auto attack) would be the same and hence need nerf. Moreover, it can be blinded and blocked. Even if you are already hit by the skill, you can stun break or use an invuln. So, at least in theory, there is plenty of counter play.

And how do you actually counter skills like Endure Pain, Distortion, Signet of Stone etc.? Just wait 2-6s? That's like saying: Ok, stealth on dodge is 3-4s, so just wait. What about teleports like Shadow Step or Blink? They are all instant and can be used while cc'ed (and most of them even break stun).

[kash.9213]

@syszery.1592 said:

@"Elxdark.9702" said:Because it doesn't have counterplay, all the dodges you named they all have some kind of counterplay and they all have been nerfed in some way.

This is not true: If you time your attack well, you can just make it hit the moment when dodge roll ends and then just spam cc/aoe at that point. Either the thief uses another defensive skill or he takes all the damage. And how do you counter e. g. Mirage Cloak?

Did you even read what I said? again this skill doesn't have any counterplay if you can't see the animation, it's a 3 second KNOCKDOWN + immobilize from stealth???????? tell me how can I prevent this skill if I don't the the deadeye coming.

Your argument is simply false. There is counter play. The easiest way to avoid being hit is just dodge the skill (dodge roll, Distortion, Instant Reflexes,...). Before you start with "what you can't see you can't dodge": Yes, but then basically all attacks from stealth (like Backstab or even an auto attack) would be the same and hence need nerf. Moreover, it can be blinded and blocked. Even if you are already hit by the skill, you can stun break or use an invuln. So, at least in theory, there is plenty of counter play.

And how do you actually counter skills like Endure Pain, Distortion, Signet of Stone etc.? Just wait 2-6s? That's like saying: Ok, stealth on dodge is 3-4s, so just wait. What about teleports like Shadow Step or Blink? They are all instant and can be used while cc'ed (and most of them even break stun).

I don't have to mark you to launch Binding Shadow from stealth but I can mark you just before it lands and time everything else to come in right after it under Quickness. I'm going to do this to you as an opener though, you not only don't see it, you don't know it until you're downed.

[syszery.1592]

@kash.9213 said:I don't have to mark you to launch Binding Shadow from stealth but I can mark you just before it lands and time everything else to come in right after it under Quickness. I'm going to do this to you as an opener though, you not only don't see it, you don't know it until you're downed.

Ok, I see. I agree that you don't know the thief is there until getting marked or the knock-down. But the other guy claimed there would be no counter play. So, how does this prevent me from using a stun breaker or invuln (or teleport out of range, or even use passive proc from Rune of Durability) and what is the actual difference between getting hit by BS (plus e. g. Signet of Shadow, which is also instant, can be used while in stealth and does not reveal) from daredevil one-shot build? Besides the 15 stacks of vulnerability (and of cause the boon rip, which make this skill quite strong), the Knockdown is only needed to secure hitting DS because it has a large tell compared to the other stealth attacks.

What would be a solution to this in your opinion? Add damage on use to reveal the thief if in stealth (like Choking Gas) or a sign like the mark around your character?

[Safandula.8723]

@"syszery.1592" said:

And how do you counter e. g. Mirage Cloak?Ur defending stupid mechanic with existence of another stupid mechanic.

Your argument is simply false. There is counter play. The easiest way to avoid being hit is just dodge the skill (dodge roll, Distortion, Instant Reflexes,...). Before you start with "what you can't see you can't dodge": Yes, but then basically all attacks from stealth (like Backstab or even an auto attack) would be the same and hence need nerf. Moreover, it can be blinded and blocked. Even if you are already hit by the skill, you can stun break or use an invuln. So, at least in theory, there is plenty of counter play.Backstab with marauder gear is 3-7k, binding shadow is a time window where ur enemy becomes punching bag, which needs to be: cleansed + stun broken. Can u see the difference?(btw Ur logic hurts)And how do you actually counter skills like Endure Pain, Distortion, Signet of Stone etc.? Just wait 2-6s? That's like saying: Ok, stealth on dodge is 3-4s, so just wait. What about teleports like Shadow Step or Blink? They are all instant and can be used while cc'ed (and most of them even break stun).

U rly compare active/passive (which happens 1 or 2 times during fight(but I agree they are stupid) ) to stealth on dodge(10s cd), that can end with 17k hit, that can lead to reset(can U see the low risk high reward that was already mentioned?).Also this mentioned stealth on dodge, can't be interrupted which leaves even less counterplay to the thing listed above.Not sure if there is any sense of writing these things, or U will just say "DE is OK"

[kash.9213]

@syszery.1592 said:

@kash.9213 said:I don't have to mark you to launch Binding Shadow from stealth but I can mark you just before it lands and time everything else to come in right after it under Quickness. I'm going to do this to you as an opener though, you not only don't see it, you don't know it until you're downed.

Ok, I see. I agree that you don't know the thief is there until getting marked or the knock-down. But the other guy claimed there would be no counter play. So, how does this prevent me from using a stun breaker or 1)

invuln

(or teleport out of range, or even use passive proc from Rune of Durability) and 2)

what is the actual difference

between getting hit by BS (plus e. g. Signet of Shadow, which is also instant, can be used while in stealth and does not reveal) from daredevil one-shot build? Besides the 15 stacks of vulnerability (and of cause the boon rip, which make this skill quite strong), the Knockdown is only needed to secure hitting DS because it has a large tell compared to the other stealth attacks.

What would be a solution to this in your opinion? 3)

Add damage on use to reveal the thief if in stealth

(like Choking Gas) or a sign like the mark around your character?

I guess you can try to pop of an 1) invuln real quick, if that works out for you let us know. Think about any other utility that might or might not be in that build that's going to change the outcome in your favor or theirs. I can't say there's definitely a counter or not but the 2) range and travel times make it a finicky sequence to time right much less try to deal with, I just wanted to point out that's it's not very easy to deal with. I think with the travel time of Binding Shadow, as long as your brain can ping it in your 3) peripheral vision, it isn't too bad to deal with.

[syszery.1592]

@Safandula.8723 said:

@"syszery.1592" said:

And how do you counter e. g. Mirage Cloak?Ur defending stupid mechanic with existence of another stupid mechanic.

Yes, what else to compare it to? Real life or other games?

Backstab with marauder gear is 3-7k, binding shadow is a time window where ur enemy becomes punching bag, which needs to be: cleansed + stun broken. Can u see the difference?(btw Ur logic hurts)

Why would you play suboptimal stats? If you want to maximize damage, you don't play marauders... So, daredevil BS is more like 20k+. And why shouldn't thief has one ability that stuns? Like other classes that have much better access to hard cc.

U rly compare active/passive (which happens 1 or 2 times during fight(but I agree they are stupid) ) to stealth on dodge(10s cd), that can end with 17k hit, that can lead to reset(can U see the low risk high reward that was already mentioned?).

I just wanted to point out that not everything can be countered and that there are skills in the game that give you an edge if you time them well. And every class has access to some game changing abilities. So, a well timed cc can secure a kill, a well timed invuln can make the other player blow good burst CD's etc...

Also this mentioned stealth on dodge, can't be interrupted which leaves even less counterplay to the thing listed above.

As I said before: Mirage Cloak can't be countered and even can be used while stunned (and you don't even have to play Elusive Mind which on top breaks stun...). Dash can't be countered and removes soft cc's.

Not sure if there is any sense of writing these things, or U will just say "DE is OK"

I did never say deadeye were ok. I just pointed out that just claiming there would be "no counter play" is not true and would apply to many things in this game if used as above.

@kash.9213 said:I guess you can try to pop of an 1) invuln real quick, if that works out for you let us know. Think about any other utility that might or might not be in that build that's going to change the outcome in your favor or theirs. I can't say there's definitely a counter or not but the 2) range and travel times make it a finicky sequence to time right much less try to deal with, I just wanted to point out that's it's not very easy to deal with. I think with the travel time of Binding Shadow, as long as your brain can ping it in your 3) peripheral vision, it isn't too bad to deal with.

1) If you don't see a core guardian you hardly dodge his burst; if you don't see a mesmer stealth you will have trouble trying to dodge his burst. That's why people play passives and many also Rune of Durability (protection proc).

2) I agree. Well times burst chain with rifle is really annoying and hard to avoid if caught unprepared.

3) Actually I didn't say that CG is OP but I wanted to ask if a similar change would be ok in your opinion to balance Binding Shadow or what is your suggestion?

[kash.9213]

@syszery.1592 said:

@Safandula.8723 said:

@syszery.1592 said:

And how do you counter e. g. Mirage Cloak?Ur defending stupid mechanic with existence of another stupid mechanic.

Yes, what else to compare it to? Real life or other games?

Backstab with marauder gear is 3-7k, binding shadow is a time window where ur enemy becomes punching bag, which needs to be: cleansed + stun broken. Can u see the difference?(btw Ur logic hurts)

Why would you play suboptimal stats? If you want to maximize damage, you don't play marauders... So, daredevil BS is more like 20k+. And why shouldn't thief has one ability that stuns? Like other classes that have much better access to hard cc.

U rly compare active/passive (which happens 1 or 2 times during fight(but I agree they are stupid) ) to stealth on dodge(10s cd), that can end with 17k hit, that can lead to reset(can U see the low risk high reward that was already mentioned?).

I just wanted to point out that not everything can be countered and that there are skills in the game that give you an edge if you time them well. And every class has access to some game changing abilities. So, a well timed cc can secure a kill, a well timed invuln can make the other player blow good burst CD's etc...

Also this mentioned stealth on dodge, can't be interrupted which leaves even less counterplay to the thing listed above.

As I said before: Mirage Cloak can't be countered and even can be used while stunned (and you don't even have to play Elusive Mind which on top breaks stun...). Dash can't be countered and removes soft cc's.

Not sure if there is any sense of writing these things, or U will just say "DE is OK"

I did never say deadeye were ok. I just pointed out that just claiming there would be "no counter play" is not true and would apply to many things in this game if used as above.

@"kash.9213" said:I guess you can try to pop of an 1)

invuln

real quick, if that works out for you let us know. Think about any other utility that might or might not be in that build that's going to change the outcome in your favor or theirs. I can't say there's definitely a counter or not but the 2)

range and travel times

make it a finicky sequence to time right much less try to deal with, I just wanted to point out that's it's not very easy to deal with. I think with the travel time of Binding Shadow, as long as your brain can ping it in your 3) peripheral vision, it isn't too bad to deal with.

1) If you don't see a core guardian you hardly dodge his burst; if you don't see a mesmer stealth you will have trouble trying to dodge his burst. That's why people play passives and many also Rune of Durability (protection proc).

2) I agree. Well times burst chain with rifle is really annoying and hard to avoid if caught unprepared.

3) Actually I didn't say that CG is OP but I wanted to ask if a similar change would be ok in your opinion to balance Binding Shadow or what is your suggestion?

1) I'm not comparing Binding Shadow to anything else and I'm not saying one thing is okay or not because these other things exist. Anything hitting you in a similar way is going to suck, but none of them are game changing enough for me to say get rid of them. If WvW turned into an actual open world pvp mode then we'd need to scrap a lot of this stuff or change how front heavy much of it is.3) "as long as your brain can ping it in your peripheral vision". I don't have a solution but something packing that much utility needs to at least allow that much. At that point it's in reasonable form, has a travel time and is noticeable and has a cooldown.

[Elxdark.9702]

@syszery.1592 said:

@"Elxdark.9702" said:Because it doesn't have counterplay, all the dodges you named they all have some kind of counterplay and they all have been nerfed in some way.

This is not true: If you time your attack well, you can just make it hit the moment when dodge roll ends and then just spam cc/aoe at that point. Either the thief uses another defensive skill or he takes all the damage. And how do you counter e. g. Mirage Cloak?

"if you time your attack well" ok, now what can you do against double dodge then? 6 seconds stealth + free disengage against any kind of attack, balanced right btw you can also dodge forward then backwards to bait cc/damage and guess what people won't know because you're in stealth :)Don't even try to compare a broken design with another broken design as Mirage Cloak, both are extremely unhealthy for the game and everybody knows.

Did you even read what I said? again this skill doesn't have any counterplay if you can't see the animation, it's a 3 second KNOCKDOWN + immobilize from stealth???????? tell me how can I prevent this skill if I don't the the deadeye coming.

Your argument is simply false. There is counter play. The easiest way to avoid being hit is just dodge the skill (dodge roll, Distortion, Instant Reflexes,...). Before you start with "what you can't see you can't dodge": Yes, but then basically all attacks from stealth (like Backstab or even an auto attack) would be the same and hence need nerf. Moreover, it can be blinded and blocked. Even if you are already hit by the skill, you can stun break or use an invuln. So, at least in theory, there is plenty of counter play.

Sure, because there are so many attacks that can KNOCKDOWN you for 3 seconds, corrupt boons, immobilize, apply 15 stack of vulnerability right? btw any decent deadeye or even mediocre ones will time this skill with mark so you get the knockdown + DJ combo. (also you will rip aegis/stability before the skill lands in pvp with trickery)And how do you actually counter skills like Endure Pain, Distortion, Signet of Stone etc.? Just wait 2-6s? That's like saying: Ok, stealth on dodge is 3-4s, so just wait. What about teleports like Shadow Step or Blink? They are all instant and can be used while cc'ed (and most of them even break stun).I can see all those skills you named, I can't see how much stealth time you have.Again you're starting to run out of excuses, no matter how hard you try to defend Deadeye or stealth on dodge, it's wrong and it should be changed.