Small Change ideas for Deadeye to make them more Healthy

[Jeknar.6184]

@"babazhook.6805" said:2>In my s/p power I do not need rifle off hand. I do not need DJ which is too easily countered or reflected. I have near full time quickness and prefer PW and the malice stealth attack with sword which has a daze endurance regen and a huge dump of vuln. This also loads on weakness with regularity. I can freely use black powder or the added daze on 4 at will. In this build I have a high number of boons and stick with premed as I am usually running 6 + boons full time and the boon duration offered allows me to stack multiple iterations of the malice 7 kick in. Swapping to rifle for a singular DJ is not worthwhile as I am now locked there for 10 seconds and given that against any competent player a DJ shot from that range dodges, blocked or reflected it not worth the swap on the off chance I will get a shot in. S/p already has a disengage along with Condition cleanse so the 4 on rifle is redundant.

The combo of premed and the 10 stack vuln add off the stealth attack sword, increases damage by over 16 percent. With Iron sight that 26 percent + damage out of the DE line which is plenty of reason to take that line even without rifle.

This part actually caught my attention... I did try to make a Premeditation build in the past but I didn't actually had much success with it. I'm curious tho: You say "I have near full time quickness" but you also mention you are running Maleficent Seven (Which means no BQoBD). Where all that quickness come from? I don't think Haste alone would cut it and I'm assuming you run Thrill of the Crime instead of Burst of Agility for the 3 boons it give every time you use Mark.

[babazhook.6805]

@Jeknar.6184 said:

@"babazhook.6805" said:2>In my s/p power I do not need rifle off hand. I do not need DJ which is too easily countered or reflected. I have near full time quickness and prefer PW and the malice stealth attack with sword which has a daze endurance regen and a huge dump of vuln. This also loads on weakness with regularity. I can freely use black powder or the added daze on 4 at will. In this build I have a high number of boons and stick with premed as I am usually running 6 + boons full time and the boon duration offered allows me to stack multiple iterations of the malice 7 kick in. Swapping to rifle for a singular DJ is not worthwhile as I am now locked there for 10 seconds and given that against any competent player a DJ shot from that range dodges, blocked or reflected it not worth the swap on the off chance I will get a shot in. S/p already has a disengage along with Condition cleanse so the 4 on rifle is redundant.

The combo of premed and the 10 stack vuln add off the stealth attack sword, increases damage by over 16 percent. With Iron sight that 26 percent + damage out of the DE line which is plenty of reason to take that line even without rifle.

This part actually caught my attention... I did try to make a Premeditation build in the past but I didn't actually had much success with it. I'm curious tho: You say "I have near full time quickness" but you also mention you are running Maleficent Seven (Which means no BQoBD). Where all that quickness come from? I don't think Haste alone would cut it and I'm assuming you run Thrill of the Crime instead of Burst of Agility for the 3 boons it give every time you use Mark.

Nope. I use haste and BOA . I do not need swiftness as I get that from the Acro Line full time. The Mali 7 gives full time Fury coupled with Fury out of CS line so all TOTC allows is added might . I generally have full stacks of might using Mali 7 and Assassins fury so TOTC is redundant. Now I have used BqoBk in the build as well and will go between them a lot as it a hard call as to which I prefer. With BqoBk the quickness is always there so you always get the precision power bonus BUT due to my length boon duration I find the 5 boons from Mali 7 plus the INI add just works better. PW builds up malice fast so you can set off multiple m7's. (The build is CS/DE/Tr)

Now given PW interrupts I slapped Sigil of Celerity on there and this coupled with Severance. So as far as quickness goes thats 12 from Haste , 12 from BOA and the Celerity add.

Note I take trickster in the Trickery line. This gives a 24 second ICD on haste. Time was I preferred Boon Theft but with withdraw as heal plus haste and RFI I generally get decent condition cleanse without having to trait extra for it(also use leadership runes which have cleanse on elite). It an either or thing. Time was when it was harder to reapply boons i would have liked BT because you both gain boons as you take from the enemy. Now that so many can just reapply it harder to justify.

I deliberately built this guy with boon duration. It runs at 100 percent in WvW when stacked. You certainly do not need that much but since i got him there I just left him there. The new Diviners set intrigues but I have not got those yet.

[saerni.2584]

Just going to chime in to support Babaz on a lot of what he says. The stealth application in rifle is one thing, and the balance of DE overall is another thing.

That said...

Please buff P/D :-p. I need to do 8k with my Sneak attacks plus condi :-p

[babazhook.6805]

@saerni.2584 said:Just going to chime in to support Babaz on a lot of what he says. The stealth application in rifle is one thing, and the balance of DE overall is another thing.

That said...

Please buff P/D :-p. I need to do 8k with my Sneak attacks plus condi :-p

You have him in grieving armor yet?

[saerni.2584]

@babazhook.6805 said:

@saerni.2584 said:Just going to chime in to support Babaz on a lot of what he says. The stealth application in rifle is one thing, and the balance of DE overall is another thing.

That said...

Please buff P/D :-p. I need to do 8k with my Sneak attacks plus condi :-p

You have him in grieving armor yet?

Yeah, well not a full set because I wanted to have some HP. The trinkets and backpiece are grieving though.

I’m mainly joking about the need for buffs because I think a better solution is nerfs to sustain on a few other professions rather than a damage buff. But I will say that at this point the anti projectile power creep makes me want to hit harder so when I do hit it can actually make a difference.

[omgdracula.6345]

@saerni.2584 said:Just going to chime in to support Babaz on a lot of what he says. The stealth application in rifle is one thing, and the balance of DE overall is another thing.

That said...

Please buff P/D :-p. I need to do 8k with my Sneak attacks plus condi :-p

Yea but changing silent scope to anything would in turn affect DE. So while two different things, changing either of them would affect the other. But the only thing I see complained about is the stealth on dodge. Which across all professions that have it is stupid. Mesmers more so because it's a stunbreak.

[Jeknar.6184]

@omgdracula.6345 said:Yea but changing silent scope to anything would in turn affect DE. So while two different things, changing either of them would affect the other. But the only thing I see complained about is the stealth on dodge. Which across all professions that have it is stupid. Mesmers more so because it's a stunbreak.

I'm pretty sure the only profession with Stealth on dodge is Thief, and that's exclusive to DE... Elusive Mind Stun-Break and Clear a condition and also it's a GRANDMASTER TRAIT (something Silent Scope isn't) and just like the Unhindered Combatant (another Grandmaster trait mind you), it give you a penality for using it's bonus.

[omgdracula.6345]

@Jeknar.6184 said:

@omgdracula.6345 said:Yea but changing silent scope to anything would in turn affect DE. So while two different things, changing either of them would affect the other. But the only thing I see complained about is the stealth on dodge. Which across all professions that have it is stupid. Mesmers more so because it's a stunbreak.

I'm pretty sure the only profession with Stealth on dodge is Thief, and that's exclusive to DE... Elusive Mind Stun-Break and Clear a condition and also it's a GRANDMASTER TRAIT (something Silent Scope isn't) and just like the Unhindered Combatant (another Grandmaster trait mind you), it give you a penality for using it's bonus.

Yea, which there should be some sort of drawback to silent scope. Maybe not exhaustion, but something. Right now it's a lot of gain for a minimal cost(stamina)

[Jeknar.6184]

@omgdracula.6345 said:

@Jeknar.6184 said:

@omgdracula.6345 said:Yea but changing silent scope to anything would in turn affect DE. So while two different things, changing either of them would affect the other. But the only thing I see complained about is the stealth on dodge. Which across all professions that have it is stupid. Mesmers more so because it's a stunbreak.

I'm pretty sure the only profession with Stealth on dodge is Thief, and that's exclusive to DE... Elusive Mind Stun-Break and Clear a condition and also it's a GRANDMASTER TRAIT (something Silent Scope isn't) and just like the Unhindered Combatant (another Grandmaster trait mind you), it give you a penality for using it's bonus.

Yea, which there should be some sort of drawback to silent scope. Maybe not exhaustion, but something. Right now it's a lot of gain for a minimal cost(stamina)

I did suggest moving Silent Scope to Grandmaster in place of Fire for Effect. I think not being able to pick M7 or BQoBK is pretty punishing that I wouldn't even mind keeping Silent Scope as it is if it get moved there. All traits that have a big effect on dodge are grandmaster traits. Why this one isn't?

[omgdracula.6345]

@Jeknar.6184 said:

@omgdracula.6345 said:

@Jeknar.6184 said:

@omgdracula.6345 said:Yea but changing silent scope to anything would in turn affect DE. So while two different things, changing either of them would affect the other. But the only thing I see complained about is the stealth on dodge. Which across all professions that have it is stupid. Mesmers more so because it's a stunbreak.

I'm pretty sure the only profession with Stealth on dodge is Thief, and that's exclusive to DE... Elusive Mind Stun-Break and Clear a condition and also it's a GRANDMASTER TRAIT (something Silent Scope isn't) and just like the Unhindered Combatant (another Grandmaster trait mind you), it give you a penality for using it's bonus.

Yea, which there should be some sort of drawback to silent scope. Maybe not exhaustion, but something. Right now it's a lot of gain for a minimal cost(stamina)

I did suggest moving Silent Scope to Grandmaster in place of Fire for Effect. I think not being able to pick M7 or BQoBK is pretty punishing that I wouldn't even mind keeping Silent Scope as it is if it get moved there.

That would also be a viable option as well. I mean I could see simply adding some version of exhaustion where the bonus precision(to just the rifle) and stealth would have a cooldown, but the base 120 is still applied.

[babazhook.6805]

@Jeknar.6184 said:

@omgdracula.6345 said:

@Jeknar.6184 said:

@omgdracula.6345 said:Yea but changing silent scope to anything would in turn affect DE. So while two different things, changing either of them would affect the other. But the only thing I see complained about is the stealth on dodge. Which across all professions that have it is stupid. Mesmers more so because it's a stunbreak.

I'm pretty sure the only profession with Stealth on dodge is Thief, and that's exclusive to DE... Elusive Mind Stun-Break and Clear a condition and also it's a GRANDMASTER TRAIT (something Silent Scope isn't) and just like the Unhindered Combatant (another Grandmaster trait mind you), it give you a penality for using it's bonus.

Yea, which there should be some sort of drawback to silent scope. Maybe not exhaustion, but something. Right now it's a lot of gain for a minimal cost(stamina)

I did suggest moving Silent Scope to Grandmaster in place of Fire for Effect. I think not being able to pick M7 or BQoBK is pretty punishing that I wouldn't even mind keeping Silent Scope as it is if it get moved there. All traits that have a big effect on dodge are grandmaster traits. Why this one isn't?

This would wealen condition builds taking the spec. Payback + FFE are prime reasons for taking this. Having to drop Payback or FFE and then have to choose between BqoBk , Mali7 and Silent scope is not friendly to any condition builds at GM trait. As for comparing other on dodge effects it not so out of place given it works ONLY with Rifle. The other on dodge effects that are in GM spots are not tied to weapons.

Now early on it was suggest that this trait work for all weapons . That would have been a bad idea.

[syszery.1592]

@babazhook.6805 said:

@Jeknar.6184 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:2>In my s/p power I do not need rifle off hand. I do not need DJ which is too easily countered or reflected. I have near full time quickness and prefer PW and the malice stealth attack with sword which has a daze endurance regen and a huge dump of vuln. This also loads on weakness with regularity. I can freely use black powder or the added daze on 4 at will. In this build I have a high number of boons and stick with premed as I am usually running 6 + boons full time and the boon duration offered allows me to stack multiple iterations of the malice 7 kick in. Swapping to rifle for a singular DJ is not worthwhile as I am now locked there for 10 seconds and given that against any competent player a DJ shot from that range dodges, blocked or reflected it not worth the swap on the off chance I will get a shot in. S/p already has a disengage along with Condition cleanse so the 4 on rifle is redundant.

The combo of premed and the 10 stack vuln add off the stealth attack sword, increases damage by over 16 percent. With Iron sight that 26 percent + damage out of the DE line which is plenty of reason to take that line even without rifle.

This part actually caught my attention... I did try to make a Premeditation build in the past but I didn't actually had much success with it. I'm curious tho: You say "I have near full time quickness" but you also mention you are running Maleficent Seven (Which means no BQoBD). Where all that quickness come from? I don't think Haste alone would cut it and I'm assuming you run Thrill of the Crime instead of Burst of Agility for the 3 boons it give every time you use Mark.

Nope. I use haste and BOA . I do not need swiftness as I get that from the Acro Line full time. The Mali 7 gives full time Fury coupled with Fury out of CS line so all TOTC allows is added might . I generally have full stacks of might using Mali 7 and Assassins fury so TOTC is redundant. Now I have used BqoBk in the build as well and will go between them a lot as it a hard call as to which I prefer. With BqoBk the quickness is always there so you always get the precision power bonus BUT due to my length boon duration I find the 5 boons from Mali 7 plus the INI add just works better. PW builds up malice fast so you can set off multiple m7's. (The build is CS/DE/Tr)

Now given PW interrupts I slapped Sigil of Celerity on there and this coupled with Severance. So as far as quickness goes thats 12 from Haste , 12 from BOA and the Celerity add.

Note I take trickster in the Trickery line. This gives a 24 second ICD on haste. Time was I preferred Boon Theft but with withdraw as heal plus haste and RFI I generally get decent condition cleanse without having to trait extra for it(also use leadership runes which have cleanse on elite). It an either or thing. Time was when it was harder to reapply boons i would have liked BT because you both gain boons as you take from the enemy. Now that so many can just reapply it harder to justify.

I deliberately built this guy with boon duration. It runs at 100 percent in WvW when stacked. You certainly do not need that much but since i got him there I just left him there. The new Diviners set intrigues but I have not got those yet.

Hm I'm also interested in this because I'm experimenting with a similar build-idea. How do you manage to build 7 Malice fast enough without just spamming e. g. PW to benefit from the boons that Maleficent Seven gives you? I tried also S/D but it feels a bit like the core variant (find a good balance between AA and 3-3 chain but this somehow makes it hard to build Malice). Any tips? :-)

[babazhook.6805]

@syszery.1592 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

@Jeknar.6184 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:2>In my s/p power I do not need rifle off hand. I do not need DJ which is too easily countered or reflected. I have near full time quickness and prefer PW and the malice stealth attack with sword which has a daze endurance regen and a huge dump of vuln. This also loads on weakness with regularity. I can freely use black powder or the added daze on 4 at will. In this build I have a high number of boons and stick with premed as I am usually running 6 + boons full time and the boon duration offered allows me to stack multiple iterations of the malice 7 kick in. Swapping to rifle for a singular DJ is not worthwhile as I am now locked there for 10 seconds and given that against any competent player a DJ shot from that range dodges, blocked or reflected it not worth the swap on the off chance I will get a shot in. S/p already has a disengage along with Condition cleanse so the 4 on rifle is redundant.

The combo of premed and the 10 stack vuln add off the stealth attack sword, increases damage by over 16 percent. With Iron sight that 26 percent + damage out of the DE line which is plenty of reason to take that line even without rifle.

This part actually caught my attention... I did try to make a Premeditation build in the past but I didn't actually had much success with it. I'm curious tho: You say "I have near full time quickness" but you also mention you are running Maleficent Seven (Which means no BQoBD). Where all that quickness come from? I don't think Haste alone would cut it and I'm assuming you run Thrill of the Crime instead of Burst of Agility for the 3 boons it give every time you use Mark.

Nope. I use haste and BOA . I do not need swiftness as I get that from the Acro Line full time. The Mali 7 gives full time Fury coupled with Fury out of CS line so all TOTC allows is added might . I generally have full stacks of might using Mali 7 and Assassins fury so TOTC is redundant. Now I have used BqoBk in the build as well and will go between them a lot as it a hard call as to which I prefer. With BqoBk the quickness is always there so you always get the precision power bonus BUT due to my length boon duration I find the 5 boons from Mali 7 plus the INI add just works better. PW builds up malice fast so you can set off multiple m7's. (The build is CS/DE/Tr)

Now given PW interrupts I slapped Sigil of Celerity on there and this coupled with Severance. So as far as quickness goes thats 12 from Haste , 12 from BOA and the Celerity add.

Note I take trickster in the Trickery line. This gives a 24 second ICD on haste. Time was I preferred Boon Theft but with withdraw as heal plus haste and RFI I generally get decent condition cleanse without having to trait extra for it(also use leadership runes which have cleanse on elite). It an either or thing. Time was when it was harder to reapply boons i would have liked BT because you both gain boons as you take from the enemy. Now that so many can just reapply it harder to justify.

I deliberately built this guy with boon duration. It runs at 100 percent in WvW when stacked. You certainly do not need that much but since i got him there I just left him there. The new Diviners set intrigues but I have not got those yet.

Hm I'm also interested in this because I'm experimenting with a similar build-idea. How do you manage to build 7 Malice fast enough without just spamming e. g. PW to benefit from the boons that Maleficent Seven gives you? I tried also S/D but it feels a bit like the core variant (find a good balance between AA and 3-3 chain but this somehow makes it hard to build Malice). Any tips? :-)

Malicious intent is one. The Infiltrtors strike IN gets two with crit so you can easily have 3 on before the PW a pw will generally get 2 . So that single base rotation has you at 5 with one PW. Crit rate base should be around 60 . With fury plus the severance kick in on interrupt you running over 90 percent. This means after 1 pw a single Head shot or black powder that crits will get you to 7. Stealth unload malice with an attack , port away, repeat. Obviously this an ideal situation but with quickness on you can get a full PW off more often. Things like PW and Unload are generally better at loading malice then is something like flanking strike.

[syszery.1592]

@babazhook.6805 said:

@syszery.1592 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

@Jeknar.6184 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:2>In my s/p power I do not need rifle off hand. I do not need DJ which is too easily countered or reflected. I have near full time quickness and prefer PW and the malice stealth attack with sword which has a daze endurance regen and a huge dump of vuln. This also loads on weakness with regularity. I can freely use black powder or the added daze on 4 at will. In this build I have a high number of boons and stick with premed as I am usually running 6 + boons full time and the boon duration offered allows me to stack multiple iterations of the malice 7 kick in. Swapping to rifle for a singular DJ is not worthwhile as I am now locked there for 10 seconds and given that against any competent player a DJ shot from that range dodges, blocked or reflected it not worth the swap on the off chance I will get a shot in. S/p already has a disengage along with Condition cleanse so the 4 on rifle is redundant.

The combo of premed and the 10 stack vuln add off the stealth attack sword, increases damage by over 16 percent. With Iron sight that 26 percent + damage out of the DE line which is plenty of reason to take that line even without rifle.

This part actually caught my attention... I did try to make a Premeditation build in the past but I didn't actually had much success with it. I'm curious tho: You say "I have near full time quickness" but you also mention you are running Maleficent Seven (Which means no BQoBD). Where all that quickness come from? I don't think Haste alone would cut it and I'm assuming you run Thrill of the Crime instead of Burst of Agility for the 3 boons it give every time you use Mark.

Nope. I use haste and BOA . I do not need swiftness as I get that from the Acro Line full time. The Mali 7 gives full time Fury coupled with Fury out of CS line so all TOTC allows is added might . I generally have full stacks of might using Mali 7 and Assassins fury so TOTC is redundant. Now I have used BqoBk in the build as well and will go between them a lot as it a hard call as to which I prefer. With BqoBk the quickness is always there so you always get the precision power bonus BUT due to my length boon duration I find the 5 boons from Mali 7 plus the INI add just works better. PW builds up malice fast so you can set off multiple m7's. (The build is CS/DE/Tr)

Now given PW interrupts I slapped Sigil of Celerity on there and this coupled with Severance. So as far as quickness goes thats 12 from Haste , 12 from BOA and the Celerity add.

Note I take trickster in the Trickery line. This gives a 24 second ICD on haste. Time was I preferred Boon Theft but with withdraw as heal plus haste and RFI I generally get decent condition cleanse without having to trait extra for it(also use leadership runes which have cleanse on elite). It an either or thing. Time was when it was harder to reapply boons i would have liked BT because you both gain boons as you take from the enemy. Now that so many can just reapply it harder to justify.

I deliberately built this guy with boon duration. It runs at 100 percent in WvW when stacked. You certainly do not need that much but since i got him there I just left him there. The new Diviners set intrigues but I have not got those yet.

Hm I'm also interested in this because I'm experimenting with a similar build-idea. How do you manage to build 7 Malice fast enough without just spamming e. g. PW to benefit from the boons that Maleficent Seven gives you? I tried also S/D but it feels a bit like the core variant (find a good balance between AA and 3-3 chain but this somehow makes it hard to build Malice). Any tips? :-)

Malicious intent is one. The Infiltrtors strike IN gets two with crit so you can easily have 3 on before the PW a pw will generally get 2 . So that single base rotation has you at 5 with one PW. Crit rate base should be around 60 . With fury plus the severance kick in on interrupt you running over 90 percent. This means after 1 pw a single Head shot or black powder that crits will get you to 7. Stealth unload malice with an attack , port away, repeat. Obviously this an ideal situation but with quickness on you can get a full PW off more often. Things like PW and Unload are generally better at loading malice then is something like flanking strike.

First, thank you very much for the build-idea and the explanations. I tested it now for some hours and I had much fun experimenting with this stuff. I think I tried to rush 7 Malice too much. I guess I just need some more practice :-)

[saerni.2584]

All the grandmasters in DE are good. They each represent a different time to kill with trade offs for different play styles.

Dodge on stealth is for one weapon and gives stealth on dodge. It should probably be adjusted by reducing the base stealth applied or only applying stealth when over 50% HP. But it doesn’t need to swap places with a grandmaster. That will just convince people it’s balanced.

[dDuff.3860]

@saerni.2584 said:All the grandmasters in DE are good. They each represent a different time to kill with trade offs for different play styles.

Dodge on stealth is for one weapon and gives stealth on dodge. It should probably be adjusted by reducing the base stealth applied or only applying stealth when over 50% HP. But it doesn’t need to swap places with a grandmaster. That will just convince people it’s balanced.

With all respect, FFE is a lackluster and can't compete with other DE grandmaster traits.

[saerni.2584]

@dDuff.3860 said:

@saerni.2584 said:All the grandmasters in DE are good. They each represent a different time to kill with trade offs for different play styles.

Dodge on stealth is for one weapon and gives stealth on dodge. It should probably be adjusted by reducing the base stealth applied or only applying stealth when over 50% HP. But it doesn’t need to swap places with a grandmaster. That will just convince people it’s balanced.

With all respect, FFE is a lackluster and can't compete with other DE grandmaster traits.

Fury and might access is pretty good. If you are advocating for buffing it how would you do it?

[dDuff.3860]

@saerni.2584 said:

@dDuff.3860 said:

@saerni.2584 said:All the grandmasters in DE are good. They each represent a different time to kill with trade offs for different play styles.

Dodge on stealth is for one weapon and gives stealth on dodge. It should probably be adjusted by reducing the base stealth applied or only applying stealth when over 50% HP. But it doesn’t need to swap places with a grandmaster. That will just convince people it’s balanced.

With all respect, FFE is a lackluster and can't compete with other DE grandmaster traits.

Fury and might access is pretty good. If you are advocating for buffing it how would you do it?

Posted my ideas in this thread already.Make the buff/debuff effect associated with stolen item happen in AOE too.

Say you stole from the rev — up to 5 targets around your marked target get torment, and up to 5 allies around you — resistance.

[saerni.2584]

@dDuff.3860 said:

@saerni.2584 said:

@dDuff.3860 said:

@saerni.2584 said:All the grandmasters in DE are good. They each represent a different time to kill with trade offs for different play styles.

Dodge on stealth is for one weapon and gives stealth on dodge. It should probably be adjusted by reducing the base stealth applied or only applying stealth when over 50% HP. But it doesn’t need to swap places with a grandmaster. That will just convince people it’s balanced.

With all respect, FFE is a lackluster and can't compete with other DE grandmaster traits.

Fury and might access is pretty good. If you are advocating for buffing it how would you do it?

Posted my ideas in this thread already.Make the buff/debuff effect associated with stolen item happen in AOE too.

Say you stole from the rev — up to 5 targets around your marked target get torment, and up to 5 allies around you — resistance.

That works for me although I’m not sure how big a buff this would be in practice. The AoE condi would need to be around both the DE and Mark to be a significant buff (letting the DE risk himself for more condi AoE).

[Exitus.3297]

@syszery.1592 said:I never complained about any other class.

@syszery.1592 said:Replace 3 by "Crazy amount of sustain" and you basically have characterized what fighting an engineer feels like... Or replace 3 by "Crazy sustain" and add 4 "Easily apply many boons" and you have described Soulbeast... Oh, how about replacing 3 by "Crazy amount of defensive cds" and add 4 "Ridiculous mobility" and you characterized Mesmer? Should I go on?

@syszery.1592 said:Ok, you must be pretty new to this game, right? a) Stamina is a real restriction and b) Mirage Cloak (1s dodge + can be used while stunned), Soulbeast boon stacking (in particular the damage+sustain resulting from this), Rampage and Holosmith are all perfectly balanced, right?

You clearly have complained about if not at least made comparisons to Mirage, Soulbeast and Holosmith.

[Exitus.3297]

@"syszery.1592" said:

Besides the fact that there is counter play to dodge, e.g. Weakness and counter play to stealth (namely Revealed - and Shadow Meld can be interrupted since it has a .5s casting time) perma-stealth isn't tied to Deadeye. A Daredevil can get similar stealth uptime even without Shadow Arts (thanks to Bounding Dodger) and backstab for the same amount of damage. Thus 1-shot plus high stealth uptime will not leave the game if Deadeye would be reworked (again) or Shadow Arts...

Silent Scope shouldn't get Exhausted because similar traits also don't apply Exhausted every time you dodge: Elusive Mind only if you actually break a stun (and it already adds the condition cleans on dodge) and Dash gives you Swiftness and more mobility (and only adds Exhausted if it removes a condition). Also, if compared to Daredevil and S/D core, Deadeye has poor mobility and less energy regeneration/dodges (and no evade skill on Rifle). So, if you remove the Stealth you need to compensate, otherwise Deadeye would have hardly any defense at all. And adding more mobility or more evades would a) not fit the theme of the Deadeye/Sniper (which is probably ok for most players) but b) would probably make the specialization even more annoying to fight/ stronger and definitely benefit good players much more. So the QQ wouldn't stop...

The only suggestion left, is adding an internal CD to the Trait. But since it is already tied to you energy (i.e. there is a limiting factor) and double dodge is usually not beneficial I don't know if this would change anything at all or make it more pleasant to fight. Maybe Sigil of Energy should also be nerf'ed in WvW (like in PvP)? That would at least affect all the Traits that are linked to energy/dodge...

Bounding Dodger Thieves do not have the same amount of access to stealth a Deadeye does in the same way. They can be countered by someone standing in their Black Powder field and either knock them out of it or keep them from stacking as much because Bound will hit them. Dodging through BP also doesn't benefit from the increased stealth duration because it is a combo, not a skill or trait. They also don't have access to Shadow Meld if they get revealed, and most classes do not have the luxury of having on-demand instant CC at their disposal all of the time to interrupt a skill with a 0.5 second cast time. Black Powder can be interrupted and still costs Initiative.

I made no suggestion for Silent Scope to get exhausted (I'm sure someone did but I don't think it is a good solution).

Endurance is not that much of a limiting factor here because of how it is implemented. It doesn't matter whether the Deadeye has Weakness on them. It won't keep them from going into stealth after they dodge. Once they are in stealth, they can stack stealth through other means with no worry of getting interrupted. By the point they get out of stealth next, Weakness will be gone. Immobilize is the closest thing to an actual counter, but standing up from kneeling removes it (most people don't seem to remember that).

You're correct that 1-shot high stealth uptime builds will not leave the game in general if Silent Scope or DE gets reworked, but at least we know those builds have realistic counterplay.

[DeceiverX.8361]

@Exitus.3297 said:

@"syszery.1592" said:

Besides the fact that there

is

counter play to dodge, e.g.

Weakness

and counter play to stealth (namely Revealed - and Shadow Meld can be interrupted since it has a .5s casting time) perma-stealth isn't tied to Deadeye. A Daredevil can get similar stealth uptime even without Shadow Arts (thanks to Bounding Dodger) and backstab for the same amount of damage. Thus 1-shot plus high stealth uptime will not leave the game if Deadeye would be reworked (again) or Shadow Arts...

Silent Scope shouldn't get

Exhausted

because similar traits also don't apply Exhausted every time you dodge: Elusive Mind only if you actually break a stun (and it already adds the condition cleans on dodge) and Dash gives you Swiftness and more mobility (and only adds Exhausted if it removes a condition). Also, if compared to Daredevil and S/D core, Deadeye has poor mobility and less energy regeneration/dodges (and no evade skill on Rifle). So, if you remove the Stealth you need to compensate, otherwise Deadeye would have hardly any defense at all. And adding more mobility or more evades would a) not fit the theme of the Deadeye/Sniper (which is probably ok for most players) but b) would probably make the specialization even more annoying to fight/ stronger and definitely benefit good players much more. So the QQ wouldn't stop...

The only suggestion left, is adding an internal CD to the Trait. But since it is already tied to you energy (i.e. there is a limiting factor) and double dodge is usually not beneficial I don't know if this would change anything at all or make it

more pleasant

to fight. Maybe Sigil of Energy should also be nerf'ed in WvW (like in PvP)? That would at least affect all the Traits that are linked to energy/dodge...

Bounding Dodger Thieves do not have the same amount of access to stealth a Deadeye does in the same way. They can be countered by someone standing in their Black Powder field and either knock them out of it or keep them from stacking as much because Bound will hit them. Dodging through BP also doesn't benefit from the increased stealth duration because it is a combo, not a skill or trait. They also don't have access to Shadow Meld if they get revealed, and most classes do not have the luxury of having on-demand instant CC at their disposal all of the time to interrupt a skill with a 0.5 second cast time. Black Powder can be interrupted and still costs Initiative.

I made no suggestion for Silent Scope to get exhausted (I'm sure someone did but I don't think it is a good solution).

Endurance is not that much of a limiting factor here because of how it is implemented. It doesn't matter whether the Deadeye has Weakness on them. It won't keep them from going into stealth after they dodge. Once they are in stealth, they can stack stealth through other means with no worry of getting interrupted. By the point they get out of stealth next, Weakness will be gone. Immobilize is the closest thing to an actual counter, but standing up from kneeling removes it (most people don't seem to remember that).

You're correct that 1-shot high stealth uptime builds will not leave the game in general if Silent Scope or DE gets reworked, but at least we know those builds have realistic counterplay.

With one BD cast per BP, the stealth rate is the same on both due to SA and initiative will be full after each 4s interval.Standing on the BP only cancels the stealth after the first leap finisher; even if the BD deals damage, it will not reveal the thief it was previously not stealthed because the finisher happens after the damage is inflicted, as it is for all leap skills and finishers.

The only noticeable difference is that there's a cast time on BP. From a stealth POV, it doesn't matter which build is being played. Permanent stealth builds that can maintain resources have been the result of SA forever, and DE just gives the build a lot more safety from range and damage than previously available to SA thieves.

Exactly as I said early on: Sustained stealth with range and high damage is an a combination that can't be balanced and isn't fun to play against, and it doesn't matter which class it's on.

[babazhook.6805]

@DeceiverX.8361 said:

@Exitus.3297 said:

@"syszery.1592" said:

Besides the fact that there

is

counter play to dodge, e.g.

Weakness

and counter play to stealth (namely Revealed - and Shadow Meld can be interrupted since it has a .5s casting time) perma-stealth isn't tied to Deadeye. A Daredevil can get similar stealth uptime even without Shadow Arts (thanks to Bounding Dodger) and backstab for the same amount of damage. Thus 1-shot plus high stealth uptime will not leave the game if Deadeye would be reworked (again) or Shadow Arts...

Silent Scope shouldn't get

Exhausted

because similar traits also don't apply Exhausted every time you dodge: Elusive Mind only if you actually break a stun (and it already adds the condition cleans on dodge) and Dash gives you Swiftness and more mobility (and only adds Exhausted if it removes a condition). Also, if compared to Daredevil and S/D core, Deadeye has poor mobility and less energy regeneration/dodges (and no evade skill on Rifle). So, if you remove the Stealth you need to compensate, otherwise Deadeye would have hardly any defense at all. And adding more mobility or more evades would a) not fit the theme of the Deadeye/Sniper (which is probably ok for most players) but b) would probably make the specialization even more annoying to fight/ stronger and definitely benefit good players much more. So the QQ wouldn't stop...

The only suggestion left, is adding an internal CD to the Trait. But since it is already tied to you energy (i.e. there is a limiting factor) and double dodge is usually not beneficial I don't know if this would change anything at all or make it

more pleasant

to fight. Maybe Sigil of Energy should also be nerf'ed in WvW (like in PvP)? That would at least affect all the Traits that are linked to energy/dodge...

Bounding Dodger Thieves do not have the same amount of access to stealth a Deadeye does in the same way. They can be countered by someone standing in their Black Powder field and either knock them out of it or keep them from stacking as much because Bound will hit them. Dodging through BP also doesn't benefit from the increased stealth duration because it is a combo, not a skill or trait. They also don't have access to Shadow Meld if they get revealed, and most classes do not have the luxury of having on-demand instant CC at their disposal all of the time to interrupt a skill with a 0.5 second cast time. Black Powder can be interrupted and still costs Initiative.

I made no suggestion for Silent Scope to get exhausted (I'm sure someone did but I don't think it is a good solution).

Endurance is not that much of a limiting factor here because of how it is implemented. It doesn't matter whether the Deadeye has Weakness on them. It won't keep them from going into stealth after they dodge. Once they are in stealth, they can stack stealth through other means with no worry of getting interrupted. By the point they get out of stealth next, Weakness will be gone. Immobilize is the closest thing to an actual counter, but standing up from kneeling removes it (most people don't seem to remember that).

You're correct that 1-shot high stealth uptime builds will not leave the game in general if Silent Scope or DE gets reworked, but at least we know those builds have realistic counterplay.

With one BD cast per BP, the stealth rate is the same on both due to SA and initiative will be full after each 4s interval.Standing on the BP only cancels the stealth

after

the first leap finisher; even if the BD deals damage, it will not reveal the thief it was previously not stealthed because the finisher happens after the damage is inflicted, as it is for all leap skills and finishers.

The only noticeable difference is that there's a cast time on BP. From a stealth POV, it doesn't matter which build is being played. Permanent stealth builds that can maintain resources have been the result of SA forever, and DE just gives the build a lot more safety from range and damage than previously available to SA thieves.

Exactly as I said early on: Sustained stealth with range and high damage is an a combination that can't be balanced and isn't fun to play against, and it doesn't matter which class it's on.

it more resource instensive BUT you can permastealth without SA. That said traiting SA makes it a lot easier which suggests that trimming stealth time acorss the board will help to address stacking. This trim not on the stealth action itself but only when one already stealthed and using another stealth skill/utility.

[DeceiverX.8361]

I was assuming SA as a constant since that's generally the build people are upset over and that with SA it doesn't even need multi-leaps of BP to maintain the same resource cost, but yes you are correct in that without SA it is less resource-intensive for DE.

[Ruufio.1496]

Rare to see mains thinking objectively about their own class. Kudos to you guys. Yes, stealth on dodge is cancerous.