Mirage condiction is absurd

[Only Even.6193]

I don't think Mirage is " balanced ", tho' pvp wise, it's definitely not the worst atm, but Mirage's balance became fragile now, successives nerfs will just destroy it for good.

Imo the actual state of Condition Damages doesn't bring justice to the Mirage, unlike Power that needs Precision and ferocity to be efficient, Condi doesn't need anything else, so more room for creativity and survivability, you can add Vitality, thougness, Healing, everything you want, the damages will remain the same.And since it has a lot of damage mitigation skills/passives, wich again, does'nt sacrifice any damages, you can be as tanky as you please.Hek, Condi Mirage can easily kill most of the legendary bounties solo, but well, since it's pve I guess it's okay...It's basically the class that profit the most out of the actual condi system, and I don't think nerfing Mirage is an healthy solution.They already tried to balance Condis but the changes where abysmal, at least for Mirages and Scourges.

Sometimes the problems are not the Classes themselves, but the mechanics they do use, like Scourge's Abrasive Grits that got nerfed (added internal cooldown) to implement the remade Sanctuary Rune (Thanksfully they reverted the nerf).

[Belishine.7493]

@EpicTurtle.8571 said:

That's misleading, the phantasms last maybe... 1 to 5 seconds? And they're very obviously not the Mesmer so I don't know what the problem is here.ya but look at the damage you do with all of that out at the same time so you get 4 phantoms and you shater the 3 clones you end up doing 30+k with no skill lets say they dodge and get hit by all phantoms you just did a min of 10k now still no skill were is the this is ok but hell to the know if a thief were to do that to you?your state of mind for mes a flawed for sure i know mine is a little flawed as well but right now this is a fact that mes is just flat brocken right now and needs fixed fast.

[Shadowcat.2680]

Condition*

[EpicTurtle.8571]

@Belishine.7493 said:

@EpicTurtle.8571 said:

That's misleading, the phantasms last maybe... 1 to 5 seconds? And they're very obviously not the Mesmer so I don't know what the problem is here.ya but look at the damage you do with all of that out at the same time so you get 4 phantoms and you shater the 3 clones you end up doing 30+k with no skill lets say they dodge and get hit by all phantoms you just did a min of 10k now still no skill were is the this is ok but hell to the know if a thief were to do that to you?your state of mind for mes a flawed for sure i know mine is a little flawed as well but right now this is a fact that mes is just flat brocken right now and needs fixed fast.

The only flawed state of mind here is yours. The phantasm spam build has been dead for months.

[Crackmonster.2790]

@Ghos.1326 said:

@"Kas.3509" said:You just need to learn to counterplay instead of complaining. Follow 3 steps:

1. Dont spam your skills when under confusion, just condi cleanse and dont run around with torment -> condi cleanse first
2. Dodge the main burst
3. ProfitIt's really not that hard. I main mirage yet in PvP it's not my favourite class.

I honestly don't care at all about what you do with mirage in PvP/WvW as I prefer to play easier and more rewarding classes there, but please stop nerfing it in PVE already. It's not bad but far off top dmg charts. It'll always belong to guardian/ele/thief/reve anyway it seems : P

Also - when a lot of people thinks one way doesn't mean it's right. I am sure 90% of consumers believe they should get things cheaper or free. Is it the right way for the company to listen to them?Answer it yourself :P.

Anet has statistics of who wins and loses against who and in what league and that is worth a lot more than some complainers or praisers on forums - because believe me even if 1000 players complain they're still a very small % of a whole playerbase and usually player just want the profession they like to get super boosted and everything else super nerfed. That's how it is.

Some of this I do agree with, but there are also more underlying issues that also invalidates a lot of what you present as well. I'll go over those.1) It is true that a lot of people continue to spam skills (especially auto attacks) when they have confusion on them, so it results in a very rapid burn of health at the cost of their ignorance (I won't say stupidity, as they might now know why they could be dying really fast). Also, when you have torment on you, yes you do want to stay still so you don't eat the full brunt of the passive damage while moving. A condi cleanse would be a great way to get rid of these two conditions.Here's the catch: a lot of the mirage skills puts high stacks of these said conditions on you. As well, the meta mirage build is a hybrid damage dealer, meaning they not only deal great condition damage, but also great power damage. So staying still will only mean you must eat their power damage as well.On top of this, because most of the mirage skills apply high stacks of torment and confusion, if you condi cleanse these conditions, they can pretty much immediately re-apply these conditions on you, or they can apply it within a 2-3 second range. This also applied to 2, dodging the main burst. They have multiple main bursts. Axe 3 alone puts 7 stacks of confusion on you and maybe more. 7+. on one skill. that's a bit much. Many professions' condition clears are on lenghty cooldowns, anyways from 20 seconds to 40 seconds or more, with only a few professions having very good passive condition clears (depending on the trait line taken), clearing anything from 2-3 condis every 10 or so seconds, maybe even less. While I think this is cool for a certain spec to have a natural predator so to speak, I also think it's a little odd, considering that a specific build that is supposed to be anti-conditions will still fail after about 10-15 seconds of fighting a mirage using the meta build.

with all of this being said, there isn't much profit. Mirages have a lot of evasion/invuln/blinds to also cover themselves if they get into tight situations, and usually having one of those in the right situations is all it takes to turn the tide of battle into your favor. Now, mirages have plenty of all of these. Which means plenty of tide turning chances in battle to help carry them to victory.

I hope this is educational in any sort of way, and this response is not meant to be condescending in any way, more of an eye opener on some of the many advantages that exist on the mirage right now.

There are so many logical fallacies in this i hardly know where to begin. According to you they appear to deal both "great", full, condi damage + power, so they are effectively dealing double damage of everyone else amirite, just like all meters prove!

Second, yea totally man it takes 2-3 to apply everything again.. suuure, if you unleash all the burst at the same time over a 5-6 second window its gonna be maybe 20seconds before you can do similar again, even up to 1-1½min for the burst abilties to fully recharge, most skills are around a 9-12 sec cooldown and you can't just get all that up in 2-3 seconds. You can get some up, but what you are saying indicates ones who doesn't know what exactly happens in combat and is overwhelmed and just think it's everything every moment.

You are also exaggerating numbers(even factually making false statements), neglecting that conditions need be met for max stacks etc making it look like we just walk over press the key and everything is unloaded.

Not to mention that to do good damage we are going to use up dodges and blinks(defensive abilties), and just pray it'll do the trick or its time to flee before you get wrecked.

[Belishine.7493]

i do know what i am talking about becouse i did main the mes for 2 almost 3 solid years so.... yes i can see this stuff being used after i state it out. but my numbers might have been a little high but yes that was my damage numbers like 5 to 6 months ago and i was steam rolling lots of players with little skill and hardly any efert at all. none the less my point is still very strong and valid. but you never did answer my question of were the devs can go for mes becosue they in a cornor were the mes needs to get balanced but also were if they nerf they will loss more of the mes players?

[lodjur.1284]

@Dawdler.8521 said:Funny thing.

The other day we had a tough fight in WvW. Hybrid power mirage and power boonbeast vs 3 condi mirages. The condi mirages lost the fight, all 3 died. It lasted quite a while and they nearly won at one point with the help of a buffed supervisor (they capped the camp we where fighting over).

Shortly after that, the same hybrid power mirage and power boonbeast vs a minstrel druid bunker and vanilla sustain warrior. After a long fight, the warrior finally got stomped, the druid literally ressed him while in combat - I have no idea how - the warrior then got killed again and we got 100% focus on the druid. He did not go down. We chased and fought. He was impossible to kill, stealthed all the time and healed up. Gave up after a minute when he finally outran us.

But yeah.

Condi mirage is absurd.

You can't base any arguments around a single encounter. Those mirages must have been absolutely terrible. There is absolutely 0 reason they should have lost that fight, espec as boonbeast is a fairly weak spec in WvW. The two of you clearly played much better (how good/bad I obviously can't comment on), otherwise the three condi mirages should win that 100/100 times.

That you cant kill a full minstrel druid doesn't really say much, it's about as good as it gets for personal survivability...

[Solori.6025]

@lodjur.1284 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:Funny thing.

The other day we had a tough fight in WvW. Hybrid power mirage and power boonbeast vs 3 condi mirages. The condi mirages lost the fight, all 3 died. It lasted quite a while and they

nearly

won at one point with the help of a buffed supervisor (they capped the camp we where fighting over).

Shortly after that, the same hybrid power mirage and power boonbeast vs a minstrel druid bunker and vanilla sustain warrior. After a long fight, the warrior finally got stomped, the druid literally ressed him while in combat - I have no idea how - the warrior then got killed again and we got 100% focus on the druid. He did not go down. We chased and fought. He was impossible to kill, stealthed all the time and healed up. Gave up after a minute when he finally outran us.

But yeah.

Condi mirage is absurd

.

You can't base any arguments around a single encounter.

That's like 80% of the QQ post on the forums though. . .

[lodjur.1284]

@Solori.6025 said:

@lodjur.1284 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:Funny thing.

The other day we had a tough fight in WvW. Hybrid power mirage and power boonbeast vs 3 condi mirages. The condi mirages lost the fight, all 3 died. It lasted quite a while and they

nearly

won at one point with the help of a buffed supervisor (they capped the camp we where fighting over).

Shortly after that, the same hybrid power mirage and power boonbeast vs a minstrel druid bunker and vanilla sustain warrior. After a long fight, the warrior finally got stomped, the druid literally ressed him while in combat - I have no idea how - the warrior then got killed again and we got 100% focus on the druid. He did not go down. We chased and fought. He was impossible to kill, stealthed all the time and healed up. Gave up after a minute when he finally outran us.

But yeah.

Condi mirage is absurd

.

You can't base any arguments around a single encounter.

That's like 80% of the QQ post on the forums though. . .

That's true

[Dawdler.8521]

@lodjur.1284 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@lodjur.1284 said:

@"Dawdler.8521" said:Funny thing.

The other day we had a tough fight in WvW. Hybrid power mirage and power boonbeast vs 3 condi mirages. The condi mirages lost the fight, all 3 died. It lasted quite a while and they

nearly

won at one point with the help of a buffed supervisor (they capped the camp we where fighting over).

Shortly after that, the same hybrid power mirage and power boonbeast vs a minstrel druid bunker and vanilla sustain warrior. After a long fight, the warrior finally got stomped, the druid literally ressed him while in combat - I have no idea how - the warrior then got killed again and we got 100% focus on the druid. He did not go down. We chased and fought. He was impossible to kill, stealthed all the time and healed up. Gave up after a minute when he finally outran us.

But yeah.

Condi mirage is absurd

.

You can't base any arguments around a single encounter.

That's like 80% of the QQ post on the forums though. . .

That's trueWhich is exactly the point. Everything is anecdotal, we dont know how good anyone is or what builds they use (sometimes they seem hesistant to disclose class as well). Yet people always take "buh miraje ÖP" for face value. In my experience, more often than not people brought a spork to a knife fight. Yeah you zerg and you can roam on it, but you wont beat a real player killer.

[lodjur.1284]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@lodjur.1284 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@lodjur.1284 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:Funny thing.

The other day we had a tough fight in WvW. Hybrid power mirage and power boonbeast vs 3 condi mirages. The condi mirages lost the fight, all 3 died. It lasted quite a while and they

nearly

won at one point with the help of a buffed supervisor (they capped the camp we where fighting over).

Shortly after that, the same hybrid power mirage and power boonbeast vs a minstrel druid bunker and vanilla sustain warrior. After a long fight, the warrior finally got stomped, the druid literally ressed him while in combat - I have no idea how - the warrior then got killed again and we got 100% focus on the druid. He did not go down. We chased and fought. He was impossible to kill, stealthed all the time and healed up. Gave up after a minute when he finally outran us.

But yeah.

Condi mirage is absurd

.

You can't base any arguments around a single encounter.

That's like 80% of the QQ post on the forums though. . .

That's trueWhich is exactly the point. Everything is anecdotal, we dont know how good anyone is or what builds they use (sometimes they seem hesistant to disclose class as well). Yet people always take "buh miraje ÖP" for face value. In my experience, more often than not people brought a spork to a knife fight. Yeah you zerg and you can roam on it, but you wont beat a real player killer.

I don't take OP at face value, judging from his post he seems quite new, but what I can say is that in my experience condi mirage is definitively the most powerful class for roaming, followed closely by DE, SB and DD.

I say this while condi mirage is a class I quite often play while roaming. Condi mirage is the only top tier roamer that as far as I know only has good matchups, I have yet to find any matchups that didn't feel heavily favored.

[melrokk.5938]

I can not understand if Anet want to weaken pvp mirage build, why along with this, weaken pve too! :(

There is a mechanism of separate nerf! Why cut everything!?