Chrono+ druid vs Renebrand in fotm

[Nephalem.8921]

@"tim.4596" said:

Okay, first of, Renegade + Firebrand will never outperform Chrono/Druid or Chrono + 3 dps in terms of clearing time. While your analysis is good, and that Firebrand + Renegade does provide many more boons, you are not taking into consideration the skips which chrono can do. And just for that chrono will always be way ahead of Renebrand. On top of that, Renebrand works in CM's but tend to perform less good if fights are too long, assuming that your renegade is running full diviner, either your renegade or firebrand will have to switch to healer.

Overall, if the Firebrand + Renegade are a pair and know how to play their class then yes. It is a good alternative. Since the last chrono CC nerfs, Firebrand + Renegade also provide way more CC

I had actually written a post about that a while ago https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/41897/how-long-should-you-take-to-clear-daily-fractals/p1

Just list the skips only a chrono can do. That are not that many!Just underground, harpy and cliffisde. Everything else can be done by the weaver with a portal device. Also Renebrand is way better in longer fights than chrono. Chrono lacks a lot of sustain especially with some of the new instabs. Chrono + druid + skips are probably slower than rene + fb without skips anyways since they save multiple minutes on the cm fights alone.Chrono + 3dps feels like the new good weather comp. It's almost as fast as rene + fb on a lot of fights if you have good instabilities. You will have a terrible time if not. Low scholar uptime will also lower the dps on top of being risky without any heal like fb tome or kalla if things go wrong.Chrono + 3dps is feels just terrible with all the random damage they added. Birds + we bleed fire especially. Reduces scholar uptime to 0 when you don't have a heal source.

[tim.4596]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@tim.4596 said:

@"Safandula.8723" said:Soo yea I know chrono can easily maintain perma quickness and Ala with 50%bd in raids. But in fotm u need 100% and land all ur wells and tots, while any splitting can badly affect ur uptime.In the same time, fb in full zerk keep perma quickness, while doing bs dps, Rene press 1 button to keep up alacrity.Don't get me wrong, I love build diversity and fact we don't have to play chrono anymore, but renebrand is just way ahead in terms of boons, dps and survivability. Chrono comps just struggle.Another thing is the duty contribution in renebrand comp. Fb deals better dps, has higher supporting abilities-perma protect, Aegis spam and perma stab), while Renee's job is to press F4, F1 off cd, occasionally F2 if bs don't take strength runes with dumplings, and kallas elite when available. Use staff 5 off CD and boonrip with npng. I feel It kinda boring, becouse than ur just maximizing ur dps to 10-15k dps (assuming ur on Shiro). Imo fb should get toned down a bit(both in pve and pvp) while rev could get a little buffs.Now wer coming to chrono part. Hard boon maintaining, no Aegis, only source of stab is spirit of nature(none in 3 dps comp). Chronos are forced to take illusions only to shorten CD on cs. I would be fine if we could occasionally take inspi for Aegis share on 30 s CD. Also, being interrupted in beggining of cs, just screws up boon uptime A LOT.The last thing may just be l2p issue, but imo, chrono comp is just harder to play, while being less rewarding. Renebrand just needs to stack together to be effective. I'm just simply asking for a little chrono comp buffs.Only reason ppl are asking in lfg for chrono is becouse: a) they didn't play renebrand, b) they are used to old comp c) ppl are afraid to put resources in gearing new classes, if meta can change soon

Okay, first of, Renegade + Firebrand will never outperform Chrono/Druid or Chrono + 3 dps in terms of clearing time. While your analysis is good, and that Firebrand + Renegade does provide many more boons, you are not taking into consideration the skips which chrono can do. And just for that chrono will always be way ahead of Renebrand. On top of that, Renebrand works in CM's but tend to perform less good if fights are too long, assuming that your renegade is running full diviner, either your renegade or firebrand will have to switch to healer.

Overall, if the Firebrand + Renegade are a pair and know how to play their class then yes. It is a good alternative. Since the last chrono CC nerfs, Firebrand + Renegade also provide way more CC

I had actually written a post about that a while ago

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/41897/how-long-should-you-take-to-clear-daily-fractals/p1

Your thread is lacking the most important composition: very well played meta statics without a healer.

I know speed clear groups which do CMs in support renegade, support fb, warrior and 2 dps (none of the supports healer) pushing 20k on each damage dealer and 10k on the supports. Druid is not meta in the top tier statics, it's meta in the good statics and top tier PUG groups.

That leads nicely into the issues this thread has, people are comparing apples to oranges difficulty wise.

A.) If we are comparing absolute clear times, then which level of player skill are we talking about? Because Renebrand beats out on dps without a healer.B.) If we are talking safest composition with mediocre clear times? Then Renebrand beats out again with more utility and easier uptime on boons as well as better heals.C.) If we are talking mediocre composition which also does chrono skips? Then chono+druid comes out ahead again.

This was all pre Tuesdays nerf to SoI. While Renebrand is even stronger now since Renegade got buffed.

Both compositions are still valid (though not perfectly played chrono groups will feel the lacking alacrity and quickness even more if they miss wells) but without skips, Renebrand is the safer and stronger composition overall. With skips factored in and perfect play, Renebrand still outperforms since they just save time on fights which the chrono+x comp has to make up for first.

I mean, there is no real discussion to have here, when the comp got released dT did some pretty try hard test, and in no single run did Firebrand/Renegade came up first.-Something which you guys also appear to be forgetting is the Shattered Concentration traitline from Domination, which removes boon on shatter, even though the Warrior can swap to Spell-breaker, this is still much better value.

So I guess the only difference would then be as you suggested in point A) "which level of player skill are we talking about".

[Cyninja.2954]

@tim.4596 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@tim.4596 said:

@"Safandula.8723" said:Soo yea I know chrono can easily maintain perma quickness and Ala with 50%bd in raids. But in fotm u need 100% and land all ur wells and tots, while any splitting can badly affect ur uptime.In the same time, fb in full zerk keep perma quickness, while doing bs dps, Rene press 1 button to keep up alacrity.Don't get me wrong, I love build diversity and fact we don't have to play chrono anymore, but renebrand is just way ahead in terms of boons, dps and survivability. Chrono comps just struggle.Another thing is the duty contribution in renebrand comp. Fb deals better dps, has higher supporting abilities-perma protect, Aegis spam and perma stab), while Renee's job is to press F4, F1 off cd, occasionally F2 if bs don't take strength runes with dumplings, and kallas elite when available. Use staff 5 off CD and boonrip with npng. I feel It kinda boring, becouse than ur just maximizing ur dps to 10-15k dps (assuming ur on Shiro). Imo fb should get toned down a bit(both in pve and pvp) while rev could get a little buffs.Now wer coming to chrono part. Hard boon maintaining, no Aegis, only source of stab is spirit of nature(none in 3 dps comp). Chronos are forced to take illusions only to shorten CD on cs. I would be fine if we could occasionally take inspi for Aegis share on 30 s CD. Also, being interrupted in beggining of cs, just screws up boon uptime A LOT.The last thing may just be l2p issue, but imo, chrono comp is just harder to play, while being less rewarding. Renebrand just needs to stack together to be effective. I'm just simply asking for a little chrono comp buffs.Only reason ppl are asking in lfg for chrono is becouse: a) they didn't play renebrand, b) they are used to old comp c) ppl are afraid to put resources in gearing new classes, if meta can change soon

Okay, first of, Renegade + Firebrand will never outperform Chrono/Druid or Chrono + 3 dps in terms of clearing time. While your analysis is good, and that Firebrand + Renegade does provide many more boons, you are not taking into consideration the skips which chrono can do. And just for that chrono will always be way ahead of Renebrand. On top of that, Renebrand works in CM's but tend to perform less good if fights are too long, assuming that your renegade is running full diviner, either your renegade or firebrand will have to switch to healer.

Overall, if the Firebrand + Renegade are a pair and know how to play their class then yes. It is a good alternative. Since the last chrono CC nerfs, Firebrand + Renegade also provide way more CC

I had actually written a post about that a while ago

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/41897/how-long-should-you-take-to-clear-daily-fractals/p1

Your thread is lacking the most important composition: very well played meta statics without a healer.

I know speed clear groups which do CMs in support renegade, support fb, warrior and 2 dps (none of the supports healer) pushing 20k on each damage dealer and 10k on the supports. Druid is not meta in the top tier statics, it's meta in the good statics and top tier PUG groups.

That leads nicely into the issues this thread has, people are comparing apples to oranges difficulty wise.

A.) If we are comparing absolute clear times, then which level of player skill are we talking about? Because Renebrand beats out on dps without a healer.B.) If we are talking safest composition with mediocre clear times? Then Renebrand beats out again with more utility and easier uptime on boons as well as better heals.C.) If we are talking mediocre composition which also does chrono skips? Then chono+druid comes out ahead again.

This was all pre Tuesdays nerf to SoI. While Renebrand is even stronger now since Renegade got buffed.

Both compositions are still valid (though not perfectly played chrono groups will feel the lacking alacrity and quickness even more if they miss wells) but without skips, Renebrand is the safer and stronger composition overall. With skips factored in and perfect play, Renebrand still outperforms since they just save time on fights which the chrono+x comp has to make up for first.

I mean, there is no real discussion to have here, when the comp got released dT did some pretty try hard test, and in no single run did Firebrand/Renegade came up first.-Something which you guys also appear to be forgetting is the

Shattered Concentration

traitline from Domination, which removes boon on shatter, even though the Warrior can swap to Spell-breaker, this is still much better value.

So I guess the only difference would then be as you suggested in point A) "which level of player skill are we talking about".

Things not considered in their test:

• perfect play and current instabilities, many of which can not be countered by a chrono+3dps+warrior comp
• recent changes (with chrono alacrity and quickness uptime again taking a hit)
• safety and easy of play. Yes, if you have permanent alacrity and quickness no matter how hard it is to upkeep, you will perform well on chrono. This is not a realistic assumption for over 99% of the player base, even less if you assume chrono+druid comps which already show lack of skill
• no healer
• skips on alternate characters
• yes boons hit Renebrand harder than chrono+x, then again birds, We breath Fire and some of the other new instabilities (some of which have no counter) make life a lot harder on chrono+x

If you check dT right now, there is meta builds for both comps. https://discretize.eu/builds

When running chrono+x you have to switch way earlier to druid than with Renebrand, because Renebrand has sufficient heal with Kalla elite even without going heal Renegade.

[Safandula.8723]

@tim.4596 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@tim.4596 said:

@"Safandula.8723" said:Soo yea I know chrono can easily maintain perma quickness and Ala with 50%bd in raids. But in fotm u need 100% and land all ur wells and tots, while any splitting can badly affect ur uptime.In the same time, fb in full zerk keep perma quickness, while doing bs dps, Rene press 1 button to keep up alacrity.Don't get me wrong, I love build diversity and fact we don't have to play chrono anymore, but renebrand is just way ahead in terms of boons, dps and survivability. Chrono comps just struggle.Another thing is the duty contribution in renebrand comp. Fb deals better dps, has higher supporting abilities-perma protect, Aegis spam and perma stab), while Renee's job is to press F4, F1 off cd, occasionally F2 if bs don't take strength runes with dumplings, and kallas elite when available. Use staff 5 off CD and boonrip with npng. I feel It kinda boring, becouse than ur just maximizing ur dps to 10-15k dps (assuming ur on Shiro). Imo fb should get toned down a bit(both in pve and pvp) while rev could get a little buffs.Now wer coming to chrono part. Hard boon maintaining, no Aegis, only source of stab is spirit of nature(none in 3 dps comp). Chronos are forced to take illusions only to shorten CD on cs. I would be fine if we could occasionally take inspi for Aegis share on 30 s CD. Also, being interrupted in beggining of cs, just screws up boon uptime A LOT.The last thing may just be l2p issue, but imo, chrono comp is just harder to play, while being less rewarding. Renebrand just needs to stack together to be effective. I'm just simply asking for a little chrono comp buffs.Only reason ppl are asking in lfg for chrono is becouse: a) they didn't play renebrand, b) they are used to old comp c) ppl are afraid to put resources in gearing new classes, if meta can change soon

Okay, first of, Renegade + Firebrand will never outperform Chrono/Druid or Chrono + 3 dps in terms of clearing time. While your analysis is good, and that Firebrand + Renegade does provide many more boons, you are not taking into consideration the skips which chrono can do. And just for that chrono will always be way ahead of Renebrand. On top of that, Renebrand works in CM's but tend to perform less good if fights are too long, assuming that your renegade is running full diviner, either your renegade or firebrand will have to switch to healer.

Overall, if the Firebrand + Renegade are a pair and know how to play their class then yes. It is a good alternative. Since the last chrono CC nerfs, Firebrand + Renegade also provide way more CC

I had actually written a post about that a while ago

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/41897/how-long-should-you-take-to-clear-daily-fractals/p1

Your thread is lacking the most important composition: very well played meta statics without a healer.

I know speed clear groups which do CMs in support renegade, support fb, warrior and 2 dps (none of the supports healer) pushing 20k on each damage dealer and 10k on the supports. Druid is not meta in the top tier statics, it's meta in the good statics and top tier PUG groups.

That leads nicely into the issues this thread has, people are comparing apples to oranges difficulty wise.

A.) If we are comparing absolute clear times, then which level of player skill are we talking about? Because Renebrand beats out on dps without a healer.B.) If we are talking safest composition with mediocre clear times? Then Renebrand beats out again with more utility and easier uptime on boons as well as better heals.C.) If we are talking mediocre composition which also does chrono skips? Then chono+druid comes out ahead again.

This was all pre Tuesdays nerf to SoI. While Renebrand is even stronger now since Renegade got buffed.

Both compositions are still valid (though not perfectly played chrono groups will feel the lacking alacrity and quickness even more if they miss wells) but without skips, Renebrand is the safer and stronger composition overall. With skips factored in and perfect play, Renebrand still outperforms since they just save time on fights which the chrono+x comp has to make up for first.

I mean, there is no real discussion to have here, when the comp got released dT did some pretty try hard test, and in no single run did Firebrand/Renegade came up first.-Something which you guys also appear to be forgetting is the

Shattered Concentration

traitline from Domination, which removes boon on shatter, even though the Warrior can swap to Spell-breaker, this is still much better value.

So I guess the only difference would then be as you suggested in point A) "which level of player skill are we talking about".

Rev can use banish enchantments for insta boonrip, which is only problematic on mama, due to many and fast retargeting.Rn as far as I know dt, uses mainly fb rev, as I'm reading through discord

[Dajo.4380]

Speaking as one that doesn't do CM's and only T4 (mostly with pugs), as well as not aiming for speedruns:

ANet can nerf mesmer/druid combo a little bit more.It is already lacking behind with the new instabilities in most cases and it is way harder to play right (especially the mesmer part). But: there is no other way Renebrand in any form becomes popular among the players. When Renebrand has gotten a solid grip in the community chrono should be buffed up back to be more rewarding (since it is way harder to play).

Fb can carry groups at the moment, as it deals decent dps or heal, quickness and with the aegis/stabi spam some of the mechanics during fights can be ignored by everyone else.Renegade is somewhat dull to play (if not healing - try to chase one of your party members with the tablet while he thinks it needs to be dodged), but that's more of a class (energy) problem than a comp problem.

Plus: chronos are pretty much locked in the support role atm, some more options would be fine (they are available, but only few use them)

[Deepcuts.9740]

What I understood from this thread is: I like playing class A. Forget about class B. Class A looks tastier and more people will play it.Maybe a mix of "I like class A and B". F class C and D"My crazy idea is: play what you like with whoever you like.You don't have a group and have to go lfg like most of us mortals? Tough luck.

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

I just don't get why some people want absolutely to erase from the world one of the compositions. This is just FANTASTIC that we have CHOICE !!!! Why would you like to impose a dictatorship ??I have FB (harrier, vipere, diviner), I have Chrono (Zerk dps, Diviner) I find an utility to both.

I have encountered a group "Harrier gear on FB is not meta" + kick, not even got time to say i can change gear (and who the hell insta kick people, like people in raid or CM don't have more than one gear or class?) dude WHAT IS THE META NOW ?? Next group will want a harrier FB because diviner ren or no support at all, other wants chrono/druid, an other is looking for vipere FB for condi compo ... SO WHAT IS THE META ???If you pug, if you play Boonsupport+healer, who cares you do 6k DPS instead of other support with 9k if you carry properly your group as intended ? You should take a look first at the war that hide itself behind "bannerslave" to do 10k at best, or other players with bad rotation, not the DPS of a support class.Not everything is about your static run, nor only CMs, nor a golem benchmark, because people have habits too, because some fractals and instabilities combination can ask particular roles/skills, because if you're looking for speedrun, don't play with 3 supports classes, play chrono+DPS and L2P.

Chrono/Druid or FB/Ren; heal FB or Heal Ren ... who cares really ? Make your own LFG, or your own static.

[Henry.5713]

There is speedclear optimal and there is optimal for you. The right composition and build choices greatly depend on the group in question. This will always be the case no matter how much either side is buffed or nerfed. But there are finally multiple truely viable choices to pick from nowadays. Why people would want to reduce said variety by further nerfing the old top dogs is beyond me.

It comes down to priorities as far as increasing group DPS is concerned. Support damage is something to think about once your damage dealers (including the warriors) are able to reach a certain point or benchmark.Hard to justify the complaints about missing 3-5k on a Firebrand while your damage dealers are lacking 20k+ between them, even more so if that comes with greatly reduced support from said Firebrand. Support which is going to be needed as you are greatly prolonging phases due to the lack of overall damage, which then in turn leads to far more damage coming in throught additional boss mechanics.It is a different story if you reached that point where things just melt. Then it might be time to consider further min-maxing in the form of support DPS.

[Safandula.8723]

@"Zhaid Zhem.6508" said:I just don't get why some people want absolutely to erase from the world one of the compositions. This is just FANTASTIC that we have CHOICE !!!! Why would you like to impose a dictatorship ??I have FB (harrier, vipere, diviner), I have Chrono (Zerk dps, Diviner) I find an utility to both.

I have encountered a group "Harrier gear on FB is not meta" + kick, not even got time to say i can change gear (and who the hell insta kick people, like people in raid or CM don't have more than one gear or class?) dude WHAT IS THE META NOW ?? Next group will want a harrier FB because diviner ren or no support at all, other wants chrono/druid, an other is looking for vipere FB for condi compo ... SO WHAT IS THE META ???If you pug, if you play Boonsupport+healer, who cares you do 6k DPS instead of other support with 9k if you carry properly your group as intended ? You should take a look first at the war that hide itself behind "bannerslave" to do 10k at best, or other players with bad rotation, not the DPS of a support class.Not everything is about your static run, nor only CMs, nor a golem benchmark, because people have habits too, because some fractals and instabilities combination can ask particular roles/skills, because if you're looking for speedrun, don't play with 3 supports classes, play chrono+DPS and L2P.

Chrono/Druid or FB/Ren; heal FB or Heal Ren ... who cares really ? Make your own LFG, or your own static.

who want to erase other compositions? im just saying there is imbalance between them. meta in fb rev is to fb go dps and rev go diviner for cms(where u need only dps and avoid aoes) and harrier rev for some t4s where there is to many adds and random shits everywhere. heal rev is enough to keep party enough if they dont randomly run everywhere. diviner rev deals 10-15k dps fb deals same dps as bs, which is huge dps boost and with good party u can kill everything before they kill u. and u get heals from kalla elite which scales with rev power. if rev goes harrier its still higher dps than chrono/druid. and if fb goes heal dps is almost the same as chrono+druid but survivability is much better. u see imbalance now?yeye chrono has focus and better skips, thats true, but its the end of fb rev cons

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

Just run 3 DH with the quickness shout, problem solved you don't need FB anymore.

Edit; Hey ! That an idea; in CM's dragon's maw is nearly useless, 3 DH +ren means quickness shouts 3*9.5sec quickness at 34sec CD.One can take PI if cc not enough. You take a BS or a 4th DPS like soulbeast for burst, GG you have better DPS than FB-Ren

[Cyninja.2954]

@Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:Just run 3 DH with the quickness shout, problem solved you don't need FB anymore.

Edit; Hey ! That an idea; in CM's dragon's maw is nearly useless, 3 DH +ren means quickness shouts 3*9.5sec quickness at 34sec CD.One can take PI if cc not enough. You take a BS or a 4th DPS like soulbeast for burst, GG you have better DPS than FB-Ren

Net result:

• loss of druid buffs since no Soulbeast
• loss of utility from FB tomes
• barely useful BS since the new banners barely justify taking a BS over an additional dps

So no, the 3 DH comp is not better than FB+Ren (and does not provide permanent quickness without diviner gear). Now you could run Soulbeast, 3 DH and Renegade with some diviner gear on DH (needs around 35% boon duration from diviner gear on all 3 with 15% from fractal potions for a total of around 50%) but that automatically reduces damage they do and still lacks the utility from FB.

You could replace the BS though for an additional dps in any situation. Just need to make sure enough cc is still available.

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

I said SoulbeastWho cares the utility of Fb if you have (harrier) ventari Ren ?I said soulbeastYou have29-32sec of quickness without mistlock, for 34sec CD with alacrity. You don't need perma quickness. You can have 100% uptime with mistlock.

[Cyninja.2954]

@Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:I said SoulbeastWho cares the utility of Fb if you have harrier ventari Ren ?I said soulbeastYou have29-32sec of quickness without mistlock, for 34sec CD with alacrity. you don't need perma quickness. You can have 100% uptime with mistlock.

You have 24 (8x3) seconds of quickness base and around 27-28 seconds with fractal potions (assuming 15% bd from potions) on a 36 second cool down with permanent alacrity (45x.8). Yes, permanent quickness would not be needed in many encounters, especially with pre-stacking still if desired you would have to use diviner gear or increase agony resistance.

You still lose the utility of Firebrand.

Meta Renegade doesn't use ventari but assassins and renegade for optimal damage. Sure you could go heal renegade but then lose out on more offensive buffs. Also FB utility is not restricted to the renegades energy system. While Renegade comes with a ton of utility, it is performance locked at some point, especially when keeping up permanent alacrity and camping ventari.

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

You take more AR, as people already do.If you play without PS war or FB you want to take LL instead of RR, so you'll need ventari to keep perma alacrity + you'll need the elite CC, the cleanse.AP is 150 ferocity which is 3 to 4% DPS; does you want 25 mights or 3~4% ? And so we talk about meta power comp or meta one healer comp ? See, it's not clear for everyone.What utlities does FB bring that are so important ?

[Cyninja.2954]

@Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:You take more AR, as people already do.If you play without PS war or FB you want to take LL instead of RR, so you'll need ventari to keep perma alacrity + you'll need the elite CC, the cleanse.AP is 150 ferocity which is 3 to 4% DPS; does you want 25 mights or 3~4% ? And so we talk about meta power comp or meta one healer comp ? See, it's not clear for everyone.What utlities does FB bring that are so important ?

I don't know, you brought up the idea of bringing 3 DH. Which composition are you referring to? Obviously the top tier meta composition is built around no healer, so if we are talking ventari, we are already talking not top tier but healer composition.

In a healer comp FB (as power quickness) provides additional safety for bad play in form of stability on demand, resistance on demand, reflects (which are not energy based), aegis and fury. As healer superior healing and permanent protection.

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

So the top tier meta should still play chrono+dps. No run prove that power Fb-Ren is uber, it's a lie, FB-Ren is only better in 1healer comp because druid is useless in 5-man except for healing.

@"Cyninja.2954" said:

In a healer comp FB (as power quickness) provides additional safety for bad play in form of stability on demand, resistance on demand, reflects (which are not energy based), aegis and fury. As healer superior healing and permanent protection.

DHCleanse /ventari"feel my wrath"DH F3Renegade

The comp works, you might win/lose some 5-6k in the all somewhere but it works as intended.

[Cyninja.2954]

@Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:So the top tier meta should still play chrono+dps. No run prove that power Fb-Ren is uber, it's a lie, FB-Ren is only better in 1healer comp because druid is useless in 5-man except for healing.

@Cyninja.2954 said:

Sure, if you have dps which provide might and fury.

Chrono+x comp has:

• the benefit of using 1 less slot for quickness and alacrity
• requires 1 slot for might and fury or needs these boons among other dps (which might alter rotations)
• chrono skips

Renebrand comp has:

• Renegade based unique party damage buffs with permanent alacrity and might and some sustain even as power
• Firebrand permanent quickness and fury
• sacrifice 1 additional slot for quickness+alacrity on support builds

@Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:

In a healer comp FB (as power quickness) provides additional safety for bad play in form of stability on demand, resistance on demand, reflects (which are not energy based), aegis and fury. As healer superior healing and permanent protection.

DHCleanse /ventari"feel my wrath"Renegade

Yes, and once you find me a Renegade who can do everything at once without energy limitations and DHs who do the same dps when bringing utility skills or having to press additional buttons, we can talk.

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

Wall is way more DPS on astri than the sword spirits. It doesn't take more fingers to press on the same key, but for wall instead of the spirit.One DH can take the shout or hallowed ground; + 3 DH means perma retialation, no need for fury !!

[Cyninja.2954]

@Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:Wall is way more DPS on astri than the sword spirits. It doesn't take more fingers to press on the same key, but for wall instead of the spirit.One DH can take the shout or hallowed ground; + 3 DH means perma retialation, no need for fury !!

Astri is not the only fight where reflects might be of use especially with the new instabilities nor is it the only fractal where reflects are useful.

Yes, 3 DH can replace a FB if all you do is bring the FB for quickness. For any other dps, you need FB and fury. So we are talking tailor built composition, in which case you can skip the healer all together and run Renebrand or 3 DH, Soulbeast and support Renegade. The moment you want to bring a bannerslave, you can't bring 3 DH. Which means that for a static which can make the most use of bs, 3 DH is uninteresting again (since we'll assume the Soulbeast is a given).

See, I can pick and chose tailor cut situations too.

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

And why not Chrono+ren ?

Edit* it was just a troll I don't care about 3 DH (still, it works (and you gave perma fury, stop arguing against)) It's just pointless to argue about chrono/druid vs Ren/FB in one healer comp as you can "pick and chose tailor cut situations" for both.

[Nephalem.8921]

@Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:Wall is way more DPS on astri than the sword spirits. It doesn't take more fingers to press on the same key, but for wall instead of the spirit.One DH can take the shout or hallowed ground; + 3 DH means perma retialation, no need for fury !!

Soulbeast elite is a lot of dps. Slb is also better for art reflects. Play Chrono + 3 dps with We bleed fire, afflicted and birds and then tell me you really want to play that daily.A lot of fractals are just pure aids with the new instabs and no healer.Rene + FB has higher boss dps. Why would it be slower on something thats not cliffside, harpies or underground? Thats the only fractals a weaver can't skip. We bleed fire + frailty and a weaver gets almost oneshot by the orbs. It's just not enjoyable without any source of healing like the kalla elite.

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

@Nephalem.8921 said:

@"Zhaid Zhem.6508" said:Wall is way more DPS on astri than the sword spirits. It doesn't take more fingers to press on the same key, but for wall instead of the spirit.One DH can take the shout or hallowed ground; + 3 DH means perma retialation, no need for fury !!

Soulbeast elite is a lot of dps. Slb is also better for art reflects. Play Chrono + 3 dps with We bleed fire, afflicted and birds and then tell me you really want to play that daily.A lot of fractals are just pure aids with the new instabs and no healer.Rene + FB has higher boss dps. Why would it be slower on something thats not cliffside, harpies or underground? Thats the only fractals a weaver can't skip. We bleed fire + frailty and a weaver gets almost oneshot by the orbs. It's just not enjoyable without any source of healing like the kalla elite.

I don't know, may be DPS can change skills too and take reflect, can dodge... look crazy, "adapt to situation" wow, sounds bad.And no, this is a lie. You don't have higher DPS with Ren/Fb + 2 DPS than Chrono+3DPS. Or you're talking about 1 healer comp, and so ? You want to force people to delete their druid and chrono ?

[Cyninja.2954]

@Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:

@Nephalem.8921 said:

@Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:Wall is way more DPS on astri than the sword spirits. It doesn't take more fingers to press on the same key, but for wall instead of the spirit.One DH can take the shout or hallowed ground; + 3 DH means perma retialation, no need for fury !!

Soulbeast elite is a lot of dps. Slb is also better for art reflects. Play Chrono + 3 dps with We bleed fire, afflicted and birds and then tell me you really want to play that daily.A lot of fractals are just pure aids with the new instabs and no healer.Rene + FB has higher boss dps. Why would it be slower on something thats not cliffside, harpies or underground? Thats the only fractals a weaver can't skip. We bleed fire + frailty and a weaver gets almost oneshot by the orbs. It's just not enjoyable without any source of healing like the kalla elite.

I don't know, may be DPS can change skills too and take reflect, can dodge... look crazy, "adapt to situation" wow, sounds bad.And no, this is a lie. You don't have higher DPS with Ren/Fb + 2 DPS than Chrono+3DPS. Or you're talking about 1 healer comp, and so ? You want to force people to delete their druid and chrono ?

This isn't about forcing anything. I certainly haven't deleted my chrono (certainly not with the amount of legendary gear she has as my main). It is a discussion which composition makes the most sense and yields which benefits. Chrono+druid isn't useless, it's not even bad or mediocre. It's a very good composition and will get everything done in the hand of semi decent players and perform admirably in the hands of very good players.

The question is only: can a different comp excel in some areas? Me personally, I feel as though Renebrand is superior for a lot of reasons to druid+chrono currently for almost all skill levels of player. On top of which it is a lot safer and easier to play.

[Nephalem.8921]

@"Zhaid Zhem.6508" said:

I don't know, may be DPS can change skills too and take reflect, can dodge... look crazy, "adapt to situation" wow, sounds bad.And no, this is a lie. You don't have higher DPS with Ren/Fb + 2 DPS than Chrono+3DPS. Or you're talking about 1 healer comp, and so ? You want to force people to delete their druid and chrono ?

But how will that be better than fb + ren then if everyone replaces damage utilities with defense options. ? Diviner rene provides a lot of heal + protection. You don't get prot with a chrono anymore.Kills are faster with ren + fb. Records were done with that. Only exception are super short fights like siax (34sec) where you just stack dhs but still no chrono.Are you playing triple dps? Your posts look like you don't even use speedrun strats. You can't dodge everything with some of the new instabs. Fb + rene offers a ton of sustain while also having higher boss dps.Warrior can also have much higher dps with FB + rene because he doesn't have to stack much might and ren does the mechanics a warr would normally do.

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

@Nephalem.8921 said:

@"Zhaid Zhem.6508" said:

I don't know, may be DPS can change skills too and take reflect, can dodge... look crazy, "adapt to situation" wow, sounds bad.And no, this is a lie. You don't have higher DPS with Ren/Fb + 2 DPS than Chrono+3DPS. Or you're talking about 1 healer comp, and so ? You want to force people to delete their druid and chrono ?

But how will that be better than fb + ren then if everyone replaces damage utilities with defense options. ? Diviner rene provides a lot of heal + protection. You don't get prot with a chrono anymore.Kills are faster with ren + fb. Records were done with that. Only exception are super short fights like siax (34sec) where you just stack dhs but still no chrono.Are you playing triple dps? Your posts look like you don't even use speedrun strats. You can't dodge everything with some of the new instabs. Fb + rene offers a ton of sustain while also having higher boss dps.Warrior can also have much higher dps with FB + rene because he doesn't have to stack much might and ren does the mechanics a warr would normally do.

My post was an interrogation about 3 DH+ren, not 3 DPS+chrono. Of course this wasn't about speedclear ...................DH doesn't lose that much to take wall, because spirit is 7-8% of dps, has cast time in your rotation and only viable (and very often not) if timed right with spear and a symbol. So you don't take sword of justice you don't really lose burst, just dps after minutes. But the point is to not take minutes to kill a boss, just seconds. Don't forget projectiles can increase significantly dps too, just look at soulbeast on Artsariv, it's like +15k in 0.001sec.Chrono has many builds viable to give 100% uptime (with mistlock), not only the "meta build" with ~60% BD for raids, chrono can take Feedback, chrono have phantasmal warden, chrono can give stab. Chrono can even heal your group and give aegis with Inspiration.Thief can take smoke screen, daredevil has a reflect in is AA chain. HoloPhoton Wall reflects projectiles. Soulbeast, tempest ...Domi chrono removes boons, Spb too, Holo too, Deadeye too.You want a list for condicleanse now ?Your interrogation is why Chrono+War+3DPS with ONE (if needed) utility skill per DPS would still give more DPS than 2 supports build in diviner ?? Really ?

Of course if fight last longer, of course if you don't play with static, with coordination and you don't know how people react to aoes/attacks and placement, you would like good uptime of protection, healing, aegis, randomly reflects, etc ... But no, no; it's not world record guiness book with ren+fb.