This is the better version, let that sink in

[xarallei.4279]

@Buran.3796 said:

@Carighan.6758 said:

@Substatic.6958 said:It's very bad in wpvp and spvp.

WvW and sPvP

are

bad. Individual specs aren't the correct solution to that problem. Rather build them for PvE, which at least somewhat works as a game mode.

PvE works? Can't talk for others, but once I finish a PvE map and a story chapter I usually don't bother to touch that content again. I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with PvE (gathering and mining are good to get gold to craft/buy the shiniez), but some of us do play the game ONLY due has decent PvP game modes (sorry is this makes someone to loss their monocles). And from a PvE perspective the Renegade probably will make less players to use the class (which anyway isn't a problem for me, to be honest).

When we are talking about PVE, we are talking about raiding. No one cares about open world pve. You can do that naked. For raiding, the new spec is very good. So for me, I'm very pleased with Renegade on this point. I can finally bring my rev to raids. And Herald at least is still decent for WvW, though it's a shame they can't do stuff to make Renegade more viable there. Personally, I still think Deadeye is worse than Renegade. Seems crappy at everything. Well, maybe it might be okay for WvW roaming, but thieves were already okay in that department.

[Substatic.6958]

@Absconditus.6804 said:

@Burtnik.5218 said:>

This video proves our point. Those fights took you an unbelievably long amount of time (shortbow) and you still ended up almost dying multiple times. And this is to a pretty easy/small group of mobs. My scourge would have killed everything 2-6 seconds after dismount and lost no health. Was this video to show just how poor SB and Warbands are? Cause that's all I saw. Some of the same reasons that make it so poor in OW are also why it blows in SPVP and WPVP.

@xarallei.4279 said:

@Buran.3796 said:

@Carighan.6758 said:

@Substatic.6958 said:It's very bad in wpvp and spvp.

WvW and sPvP

are

bad. Individual specs aren't the correct solution to that problem. Rather build them for PvE, which at least somewhat works as a game mode.

PvE works? Can't talk for others, but once I finish a PvE map and a story chapter I usually don't bother to touch that content again. I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with PvE (gathering and mining are good to get gold to craft/buy the shiniez), but some of us do play the game ONLY due has decent PvP game modes (sorry is this makes someone to loss their monocles). And from a PvE perspective the Renegade probably will make less players to use the class (which anyway isn't a problem for me, to be honest).

When we are talking about PVE, we are talking about raiding.

No one cares about open world pve

. You can do that naked. For raiding, the new spec is very good. So for me, I'm very pleased with Renegade on this point. I can finally bring my rev to raids. And Herald at least is still decent for WvW, though it's a shame they can't do stuff to make Renegade more viable there. Personally, I still think Deadeye is worse than Renegade. Seems crappy at everything. Well, maybe it might be okay for WvW roaming, but thieves were already okay in that department.

Actually every single poll open world wins, by a large margin. And that's over 90% of the new content this game gives. Even PVP is ahead of Raids in these polls. Raids are very niche in GW2, and the Raid content itself is pretty garbage compared to other MMOs. A raid only spec in GW2 is like an open world only Spec in WoW. Waste of time.

Running around in the Sepulchar or those super dense Forge camps as a Renegade and collecting 5-6 regular mobs and 2-3 veterans is going to be a rough battle (the video posted in this thread barely manages 1/4th that). Not so much on my Scourge or Druid. Solo'ing The Dreadhouse on Renegade was hell compared to any other class I currently have at 80.

[Ardent Heretic.8216]

@Substatic.6958 said:Actually every single poll open world wins, by a large margin. And that's over 90% of the new content this game gives. Even PVP is ahead of Raids in these polls. Raids are very niche in GW2, and the Raid content itself is pretty garbage compared to other MMOs. A raid only spec in GW2 is like an open world only Spec in WoW. Waste of time.

Running around in the Sepulchar or those super dense Forge camps as a Renegade and collecting 5-6 regular mobs and 2-3 veterans is going to be a rough battle (the video posted in this thread barely manages 1/4th that). Not so much on my Scourge or Druid. Solo'ing The Dreadhouse on Renegade was hell.

I agree with you, but for the sake of posterity, could you please link one or two of these polls?

[Jthug.9506]

Meh I didn't have a problem with the dead house, it was challenging, but not HELL by any means, the whole key is to CC that big guy asap, and if there is one thing kalla does right it's plenty o cc

[Substatic.6958]

@Ardent Heretic.8216 said:

@Substatic.6958 said:Actually every single poll open world wins, by a large margin. And that's over 90% of the new content this game gives. Even PVP is ahead of Raids in these polls. Raids are very niche in GW2, and the Raid content itself is pretty garbage compared to other MMOs. A raid only spec in GW2 is like an open world only Spec in WoW. Waste of time.

Running around in the Sepulchar or those super dense Forge camps as a Renegade and collecting 5-6 regular mobs and 2-3 veterans is going to be a rough battle (the video posted in this thread barely manages 1/4th that). Not so much on my Scourge or Druid. Solo'ing The Dreadhouse on Renegade was hell.

I agree with you, but for the sake of posterity, could you please link one or two of these polls?

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/7718/preferences-for-pve-content#https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/5602/poll-what-is-your-most-played-or-most-cared-about-game-mode-as-a-necro#latest. I picked a class that is currently equally as good at everything to make it seem more fair.Also a few old ones in the old forums and on Reddit, but will take a while to find

[Absconditus.6804]

@Absconditus.6804 said:Following is a semi-short clip where I purposely stay on Short Bow and Kalla utilities for some escalating fights in the desert outside Amnoon. Normally I would switch to Mallyx and/or Mace/Axe when I feel that it makes more sense granted.

@Substatic.6958 said:Those fights took you an absurd amount of time (shortbow) and you still ended up clutching it. My scourge would have killed everything 2-6 seconds after dismount and lost no health. Was this video to show just how poor SB and Warbands are? Cause that's all I saw.

There were no "clutching it" though. Did you read before commenting or just watch the clip? I'm confused. There were no more ranged enemies at the end, and at any given time I could have swapped to Mallyx to heal if I felt at risk of going down. I had aprox. 25% health left, I didn't feel threatened. At the end, Kalla's heal is even ready again, but there's a single enemy left posing no threat. I was actually caught off guard by the event that moved in on me and I should have focused the two ranged guys right away to avoid losing a chunk of my health as the third set of enemies spawned. I weren't looking at the mini map and had stupid tunnel vision. You are also comparing the specialization to one that is obviously going to be toned down. I applaud you for being able to kill enemies that weren't around within 2 to 6 seconds though, and that the stars always align for you and your fights never take longer. That's quite an impressive feat. I would genuinely be interested in learning how to do such impossible feats, so if you can capture some footage of how to do that, it'd be appreciated. Actually capture some footage of you killing a Hydra in 2 seconds on Scourge, not because they're hard, but I want to see that insane burst (– no food buffs though, keep it fair). Anyways, the clip was an example of it being possible for me to enjoy playing with Renegade tools. Not everything needs to die in seconds in the open world you know. The video even followed a paragraph starting with "Even with shortcomings and some clunky design, I find it possible to enjoy and play with the specialization in PvE and WvW at least, so I look at the specialization as something that's usable. It's not all bad, doom and gloom."

Basically, if the specialization can get the job done, I can enjoy it, even if I would like to see some favorable adjustments as much as anyone and don't consider it to be a properly developed Elite Specialization as a whole. Perhaps my enjoyment also comes from liking active fights, as they are engaging and entertaining to me.

Edit: Just to be clear, it is of course faster to kill things when you swap over to Mallyx and use Mace/Axe, I don't think anyone has ever claimed otherwise. Speaking of which, I somewhat disagree with ArenaNet's position on ranged weapons needing to be (a lot) lower damage than melee due to the benefit and safety that range is supposed to give you. That's not really applicable when nearly everyone and most AI can basically close the gap between you and themselves before you can even fire off any one skill in your repertoire, especially at 900 range. Let's also not forget the amount of "projectile hate" that is currently in the game. A bit lower damage, I could live with that, but going from benchmarks showing a potential 37k+ on Mace/Axe and barely getting to 21k on Short Bow shows a huge discrepancy between the two types of weapons. That said, Short Bow is at the very least pretty consistent in situations the Mace could struggle slightly in.

PS: In World vs. World, the Short Bow tags about as great if not better than the old Staff Guardian. I love it when running with the zerg. Bags upon bags upon bags!

[Substatic.6958]

@Jthug.9506 said:Meh I didn't have a problem with the dead house, it was challenging, but not HELL by any means, the whole key is to CC that big guy asap, and if there is one thing kalla does right it's plenty o cc

Well, compared to my other 80's. Again I'm purely comparing, not saying any of this is impossible on renegade. It certainly is doable. Mounting around in The Sepulcher or going through a huge pack of Forged elites/vets just doesn't feel quite as secure as on my others. I try far harder not to get dismounted on my Rene.

My point is, it doesn't excel in this area. Ditto at wpvp and spvp.

It's really only a good at raids. In an extremely raid light game. Take that as you will.

[Jthug.9506]

I can imagine that it's probably bad in sPvP, but in WvW I think it could be good. Most of what is bad about shortbow is actually probably really nice vs a zerg, granted I wouldn't use Kalla in WvW, I would probably opt for jallis/ventari but the shortbow and piercing would be a good time vs a large zerg, and if you can rock mostly trailblazer's stats you are probably in a very good place for that. But as far as open world I think kalla is pretty nice, but you do have to learn the class to be effective, for instance I am still not making good use of darkrazor for stun breaking as I am still used to stunbreak on legend swap and not having it anymore with the raid build is kinda odd for me. Still I have been pretty happy with what you can pull off with shortbow kiting against a bunch of mobs, and I personally find it extremely satisfying to splatter a large group of mobs with Citadel Bombardment. I have seen scourge in action, and it's amazing, as is the firebrand. I am not claiming that those aren't more satisfying or faster or whatever for pve open world/story content. I am just saying that Renegade is completely workable if you take the time to explore it.

[nosleepdemon.1368]

@Burtnik.5218 said:What if i told you that originally renegade was supposed to use greatsword? Rytlock is using gs, the icon seems to be closer to gs than bow..Honestly i have no idea how they could place 5 "well" skills on Kalla. Its like equipping 5 gyros for scrapper.. it just wont work at all, whoever designed this spec was completely disconnected from the profession and the game.

They stated in the AMA that their choice of legend was based on Kalla starting a cultural revolution amongst the Charr, and also to equalise gender parity amongst existing legends. Sooo yeah. Forget useful skills, Kalla is the diversity hire, folks. And in true form, has the lowest ranking in the "my favourite Elite" poll.

[xarallei.4279]

@Substatic.6958 said:

@Absconditus.6804 said:

@Burtnik.5218 said:>

This video proves our point. Those fights took you an unbelievably long amount of time (shortbow) and you still ended up almost dying multiple times. And this is to a pretty easy/small group of mobs. My scourge would have killed everything 2-6 seconds after dismount and lost no health. Was this video to show just how poor SB and Warbands are? Cause that's all I saw. Some of the same reasons that make it so poor in OW are also why it blows in SPVP and WPVP.

@xarallei.4279 said:

@Buran.3796 said:

@Carighan.6758 said:

@Substatic.6958 said:It's very bad in wpvp and spvp.

WvW and sPvP

are

bad. Individual specs aren't the correct solution to that problem. Rather build them for PvE, which at least somewhat works as a game mode.

PvE works? Can't talk for others, but once I finish a PvE map and a story chapter I usually don't bother to touch that content again. I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with PvE (gathering and mining are good to get gold to craft/buy the shiniez), but some of us do play the game ONLY due has decent PvP game modes (sorry is this makes someone to loss their monocles). And from a PvE perspective the Renegade probably will make less players to use the class (which anyway isn't a problem for me, to be honest).

When we are talking about PVE, we are talking about raiding.

No one cares about open world pve

. You can do that naked. For raiding, the new spec is very good. So for me, I'm very pleased with Renegade on this point. I can finally bring my rev to raids. And Herald at least is still decent for WvW, though it's a shame they can't do stuff to make Renegade more viable there. Personally, I still think Deadeye is worse than Renegade. Seems crappy at everything. Well, maybe it might be okay for WvW roaming, but thieves were already okay in that department.

Actually every single poll open world wins, by a large margin. And that's over 90% of the new content this game gives. Even PVP is ahead of Raids in these polls. Raids are very niche in GW2, and the Raid content itself is pretty garbage compared to other MMOs. A raid only spec in GW2 is like an open world only Spec in WoW. Waste of time.

Running around in the Sepulchar or those super dense Forge camps as a Renegade and collecting 5-6 regular mobs and 2-3 veterans is going to be a rough battle (the video posted in this thread barely manages 1/4th that). Not so much on my Scourge or Druid. Solo'ing The Dreadhouse on Renegade was hell compared to any other class I currently have at 80.

The point is they don't balance for open world. Nor should they. It's easy. You can do it with any spec pretty much. Where you need to balance things is in instanced PvE, WvW and sPvP. And Scourge might be a fair comparison, but Druid? Of course you aren't going to have trouble on a Druid.