Nerfing permastealth Backstab builds without kittening thief further

Cougre.6543 · September 28, 2019

When is permastealth backstab thief actually a problem? In sPvP it is outperformed by pretty much any other thief build because they can actually rotate. In WvW you cannot be oneshot while sitting on a mount, and the build loses all ability to finish you off the moment even a single attentive ally is near you; when you're in your zerg the permastealth thief stops existing to you.You have to use most of your resources to even get in position without being seen by the enemy, so if the backstab doesn't downstate every potential threat in the area you're very likely dead because you don't have much to escape with.

Jugglemonkey.8741 · September 28, 2019

@"Cougre.6543" said:When is permastealth backstab thief actually a problem? In sPvP it is outperformed by pretty much any other thief build because they can actually rotate. In WvW you cannot be oneshot while sitting on a mount, and the build loses all ability to finish you off the moment even a single attentive ally is near you; when you're in your zerg the permastealth thief stops existing to you.You have to use most of your resources to even get in position without being seen by the enemy, so if the backstab doesn't downstate every potential threat in the area you're very likely dead because you don't have much to escape with.

Oh yeah, you're totally right. 95% of the time it's not worth the effort now mounts are a thing, I'm more approaching this from a "if a nerf is inevitable, what would be the healthiest nerf overall" sort of perspective. There's burst builds that are way more threatening and there's sustain builds a one malice malicious backstab won't even scratch, so it's not something I'd think is a major balance priority right now.

Cougre.6543 · September 29, 2019

@"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:Oh yeah, you're totally right. 95% of the time it's not worth the effort now mounts are a thing, I'm more approaching this from a "if a nerf is inevitable, what would be the healthiest nerf overall" sort of perspective. There's burst builds that are way more threatening and there's sustain builds a one malice malicious backstab won't even scratch, so it's not something I'd think is a major balance priority right now.Then we are essentially on the same page, but I've taken it a step further. In the case that nerfing permastealth thief cannot come without repercussions for the rest of the class, then I'd like for it to only be nerfed if it is indeed a tangible problem.

Jugglemonkey.8741 · September 29, 2019

@Cougre.6543 said:
@"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:Oh yeah, you're totally right. 95% of the time it's not worth the effort now mounts are a thing, I'm more approaching this from a "if a nerf is inevitable, what would be the healthiest nerf overall" sort of perspective. There's burst builds that are way more threatening and there's sustain builds a one malice malicious backstab won't even scratch, so it's not something I'd think is a major balance priority right now.Then we are essentially on the same page, but I've taken it a step further. In the case that nerfing permastealth thief cannot come without repercussions for the rest of the class, then I'd like for it to only be nerfed if it is indeed a tangible problem.

Unfortunately most of the playerbase chooses to call for nerfs to things that they personally find annoying rather than what's actually OP.

UNOwen.7132 · September 29, 2019

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:
@Cougre.6543 said:
@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:Oh yeah, you're totally right. 95% of the time it's not worth the effort now mounts are a thing, I'm more approaching this from a "if a nerf is inevitable, what would be the healthiest nerf overall" sort of perspective. There's burst builds that are way more threatening and there's sustain builds a one malice malicious backstab won't even scratch, so it's not something I'd think is a major balance priority right now.Then we are essentially on the same page, but I've taken it a step further. In the case that nerfing permastealth thief cannot come without repercussions for the rest of the class, then I'd like for it to only be nerfed if it is indeed a tangible problem.

Unfortunately most of the playerbase chooses to call for nerfs to things that they personally find annoying rather than what's actually OP.

Because fun and interactivity are just as important as balance. Permastealth oneshot cheese isnt good. But boy is it frustrating and uninteractive. It absolutely needs to be changed for just that reason alone, though how to do so without hitting regular thief is the tricky part.

Doug.4930 · October 1, 2019

@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:
@Cougre.6543 said:
@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:Oh yeah, you're totally right. 95% of the time it's not worth the effort now mounts are a thing, I'm more approaching this from a "if a nerf is inevitable, what would be the healthiest nerf overall" sort of perspective. There's burst builds that are way more threatening and there's sustain builds a one malice malicious backstab won't even scratch, so it's not something I'd think is a major balance priority right now.Then we are essentially on the same page, but I've taken it a step further. In the case that nerfing permastealth thief cannot come without repercussions for the rest of the class, then I'd like for it to only be nerfed if it is indeed a tangible problem.

Unfortunately most of the playerbase chooses to call for nerfs to things that they personally find annoying rather than what's actually OP.

Because fun and interactivity are just as important as balance. Permastealth oneshot cheese isnt good. But boy is it frustrating and uninteractive. It absolutely needs to be changed for just that reason alone, though how to do so without hitting regular thief is the tricky part.

Can't say i agree with this either. Nerfing a build/class because certain people don't like how it plays just isn't good enough. I hate how warriors can simply press a button and they cannot be killed. I hate how much passive survival mechanics are built into the class. But to say that warriors should be nerfed just because of my subjective tastes would be completely unreasonable.

@Jugglemonkey.8741 @Cougre.6543 @Sir Vincent III.1286

You all make good points, but I'm still not convinced that a thief being able to stack 12 seconds of stealth using initiative alone doesn't need some toning down. Moving the assassins signet to the elite would certainly hit oneshot backstabs builds, but I still think there would be collateral damage against other thief builds.

Removing a thieves ability to stack copious amounts of stealth using only initiative will only damage oneshot perma stealth builds.

SehferViega.8725 · October 1, 2019

@"Doug.4930" said:Been a lost of discussion thrown around lately about oneshot back stab builds being able to 1 shot from stealth. The best fix would be to nerf damage across the board, but failing that how about this.
Any stealth that is gained from a combo field, whether its a leap or blast is separated from stealth gained through traits and skills. In other words, much like how mesmer stealth like mass invis doesn't stack with thief stealth, stealth gained solely through combos (like leaping through blind fields) wouldn't stack with stealth applied via skills and traits. This would make it much more difficult for troll perma stealth 1 shot builds to pop out of stealth with an 18k backstab and vanish again for another 30 seconds while it waits for cooldowns. If this isn't enough and people want to go to further extremes, additionally make each stack of stealth gained through combos to be completely unstackable with every application of stealth in the game including additional combos. This nerf wouldn't affect thieves that weave in and out of stealth during a fight but would hinder stacking it out of combat and ambushing an enemy for their entire health pool.
Was going to post this in a WvW/sPvP section but figured I'd need to deal with the "I hate thief and stealth so much they should both be deleted" people. Hoping to get a more level headed response here.
What do you fellows thieves think?

Easieast solution? Remove Assassin's Signet from PvP and WvW (and of course keep it on PvE).. To balance increase some Weapon skills damage (by about a 10%): Backstab (but not Malicius Backstab that just get a Bonus Damage per Malice), Heartseeker (when the target has more then 50% health), Vault, Weakening Charge and Death's Judgment (cause it really easy to dodge).

No more oneshot from stealth (except in case you are playing a full berserker ele, guardian or thief) and we can solve, at the same time, the lack of damage of non-DE power thieves.

Doug.4930 · October 1, 2019

@SehferViega.8725 said:
@"Doug.4930" said:Been a lost of discussion thrown around lately about oneshot back stab builds being able to 1 shot from stealth. The best fix would be to nerf damage across the board, but failing that how about this.
Any stealth that is gained from a combo field, whether its a leap or blast is separated from stealth gained through traits and skills. In other words, much like how mesmer stealth like mass invis doesn't stack with thief stealth, stealth gained solely through combos (like leaping through blind fields) wouldn't stack with stealth applied via skills and traits. This would make it much more difficult for troll perma stealth 1 shot builds to pop out of stealth with an 18k backstab and vanish again for another 30 seconds while it waits for cooldowns. If this isn't enough and people want to go to further extremes, additionally make each stack of stealth gained through combos to be completely unstackable with every application of stealth in the game including additional combos. This nerf wouldn't affect thieves that weave in and out of stealth during a fight but would hinder stacking it out of combat and ambushing an enemy for their entire health pool.
Was going to post this in a WvW/sPvP section but figured I'd need to deal with the "I hate thief and stealth so much they should both be deleted" people. Hoping to get a more level headed response here.
What do you fellows thieves think?

Easieast solution? Remove Assassin's Signet from PvP and WvW (and of course keep it on PvE).. To balance increase some Weapon skills damage (by about a 10%): Backstab (but not Malicius Backstab that just get a Bonus Damage per Malice), Heartseeker (when the target has more then 50% health), Vault, Weakening Charge and Death's Judgment (cause it really easy to dodge).

No more oneshot from stealth (except in case you are playing a full berserker ele, guardian or thief) and we can solve, at the same time, the lack of damage of non-DE power thieves.

The thing is though that every build has access to meme oneshot damage. For me, its the access to stealth stacking of 12 seconds (or more) using initiative thats the problem. I still feel the simplest solution is hitting the stealth stacking part of the build. So far everyone has suggested toning down damage in some way. But we can just play a burst mirage/glassbow soulbeast/fresh air weaver/berserker etc if damage is the key. But I think its the damage + being able to stack ludicrous amounts of stealth with initiative that needs toning down. Thief damage is on par with most other glass classes I think. But the thing is the other oneshot builds you can at least see coming. (except soul beast actually, but its still nowhere near as much stealth as thief, but don't want to get off topic)

SehferViega.8725 · October 1, 2019

@Doug.4930 said:

Look, I'm the first one that don't like permastealth mechanic.

If you spend Initiative to gain Stealth, is still fine for me (at least you can reach 6 seconds of stealth using only your initiative as DD D/P or 8 seconds if you are a DE): if you use it to gain stealth, then you don't have it to spam skills.

I don't like the Dodge-stealth mechanic and the new SA trait Concealing Restoration + Meld with Shadows (that is OP with both Withdraw and Hide in Shadows).

Thief damage is on par with most other glass classes I think.

Not, is not! In WvW I usually play D/P daredevil with 3114 power and 223% critical damage, DA, Tr, DD and without Assassin's Signet: my backstab damage to another thief is around 8,5k-9,5k.. and this is my best DPS skill!!Now compare this with the damage of a Power mirage, a berserker warrior (or a core Warrior), a Soulbeast, an Holosmith, a Scepter Weaver or a Revenant.. to not talk about Reapers.

Sir Vincent III.1286 · October 1, 2019

@Doug.4930 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:
@Cougre.6543 said:
@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:Oh yeah, you're totally right. 95% of the time it's not worth the effort now mounts are a thing, I'm more approaching this from a "if a nerf is inevitable, what would be the healthiest nerf overall" sort of perspective. There's burst builds that are way more threatening and there's sustain builds a one malice malicious backstab won't even scratch, so it's not something I'd think is a major balance priority right now.Then we are essentially on the same page, but I've taken it a step further. In the case that nerfing permastealth thief cannot come without repercussions for the rest of the class, then I'd like for it to only be nerfed if it is indeed a tangible problem.

Unfortunately most of the playerbase chooses to call for nerfs to things that they personally find annoying rather than what's actually OP.

Because fun and interactivity are just as important as balance. Permastealth oneshot cheese isnt good. But boy is it frustrating and uninteractive. It absolutely needs to be changed for just that reason alone, though how to do so without hitting regular thief is the tricky part.

Can't say i agree with this either. Nerfing a build/class because certain people don't like how it plays just isn't good enough. I hate how warriors can simply press a button and they cannot be killed. I hate how much passive survival mechanics are built into the class. But to say that warriors should be nerfed just because of my subjective tastes would be completely unreasonable.

@Jugglemonkey.8741 @Cougre.6543 @Sir Vincent III.1286

You all make good points, but I'm still not convinced that a thief being able to stack 12 seconds of stealth using initiative alone doesn't need some toning down. Moving the assassins signet to the elite would certainly hit oneshot backstabs builds, but I still think there would be collateral damage against other thief builds.

Removing a thieves ability to stack copious amounts of stealth using only initiative will only damage oneshot perma stealth builds.

You're not addressing the fact that one-shot-kill only happens to those who took the risk of building glass cannon. Nope, you don't want to acknowledge that at all since you're real objective is to ruin Thief builds. Besides, I, for one, am not really trying to convince you. I'm simply pointing out that you are wrong.

UNOwen.7132 · October 1, 2019

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
@Doug.4930 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:
@Cougre.6543 said:
@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:Oh yeah, you're totally right. 95% of the time it's not worth the effort now mounts are a thing, I'm more approaching this from a "if a nerf is inevitable, what would be the healthiest nerf overall" sort of perspective. There's burst builds that are way more threatening and there's sustain builds a one malice malicious backstab won't even scratch, so it's not something I'd think is a major balance priority right now.Then we are essentially on the same page, but I've taken it a step further. In the case that nerfing permastealth thief cannot come without repercussions for the rest of the class, then I'd like for it to only be nerfed if it is indeed a tangible problem.

Unfortunately most of the playerbase chooses to call for nerfs to things that they personally find annoying rather than what's actually OP.

Because fun and interactivity are just as important as balance. Permastealth oneshot cheese isnt good. But boy is it frustrating and uninteractive. It absolutely needs to be changed for just that reason alone, though how to do so without hitting regular thief is the tricky part.

Can't say i agree with this either. Nerfing a build/class because certain people don't like how it plays just isn't good enough. I hate how warriors can simply press a button and they cannot be killed. I hate how much passive survival mechanics are built into the class. But to say that warriors should be nerfed just because of my subjective tastes would be completely unreasonable.

@Jugglemonkey.8741 @Cougre.6543 @Sir Vincent III.1286

You all make good points, but I'm still not convinced that a thief being able to stack 12 seconds of stealth using initiative alone doesn't need some toning down. Moving the assassins signet to the elite would certainly hit oneshot backstabs builds, but I still think there would be collateral damage against other thief builds.

Removing a thieves ability to stack copious amounts of stealth using only initiative will only damage oneshot perma stealth builds.

You're not addressing the fact that one-shot-kill only happens to those who took the risk of building glass cannon. Nope, you don't want to acknowledge that at all since you're real objective is to ruin Thief builds. Besides, I, for one, am not really trying to convince you. I'm simply pointing out that you are wrong.

Building glass cannon means you take a risk of dying quickly when actually being attacked. It shouldnt mean that you can sometimes die from an enemy you didnt even know was there, without a chance to react. And frankly, permastealth oneshot builds are a thief build that should be "ruined". It adds nothing good to the game, and merely causes frustration. Even snipers in FPS at least have to respect sightlines.

Sir Vincent III.1286 · October 1, 2019

@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
@Doug.4930 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:
@Cougre.6543 said:
@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:Oh yeah, you're totally right. 95% of the time it's not worth the effort now mounts are a thing, I'm more approaching this from a "if a nerf is inevitable, what would be the healthiest nerf overall" sort of perspective. There's burst builds that are way more threatening and there's sustain builds a one malice malicious backstab won't even scratch, so it's not something I'd think is a major balance priority right now.Then we are essentially on the same page, but I've taken it a step further. In the case that nerfing permastealth thief cannot come without repercussions for the rest of the class, then I'd like for it to only be nerfed if it is indeed a tangible problem.

Unfortunately most of the playerbase chooses to call for nerfs to things that they personally find annoying rather than what's actually OP.

Because fun and interactivity are just as important as balance. Permastealth oneshot cheese isnt good. But boy is it frustrating and uninteractive. It absolutely needs to be changed for just that reason alone, though how to do so without hitting regular thief is the tricky part.

Can't say i agree with this either. Nerfing a build/class because certain people don't like how it plays just isn't good enough. I hate how warriors can simply press a button and they cannot be killed. I hate how much passive survival mechanics are built into the class. But to say that warriors should be nerfed just because of my subjective tastes would be completely unreasonable.

@Jugglemonkey.8741 @Cougre.6543 @Sir Vincent III.1286

You all make good points, but I'm still not convinced that a thief being able to stack 12 seconds of stealth using initiative alone doesn't need some toning down. Moving the assassins signet to the elite would certainly hit oneshot backstabs builds, but I still think there would be collateral damage against other thief builds.

Removing a thieves ability to stack copious amounts of stealth using only initiative will only damage oneshot perma stealth builds.

You're not addressing the fact that one-shot-kill only happens to those who took the risk of building glass cannon. Nope, you don't want to acknowledge that at all since you're real objective is to ruin Thief builds. Besides, I, for one, am not really trying to convince you. I'm simply pointing out that you are wrong.

Building glass cannon means you take a risk of dying quickly when actually being attacked. It shouldnt mean that you can sometimes die from an enemy you didnt even know was there, without a chance to react. And frankly, permastealth oneshot builds are a thief build that should be "ruined". It adds nothing good to the game, and merely causes frustration. Even snipers in FPS at least have to respect sightlines.

lol, snipers in FPS do one shot kill all the time. What games are you playing?

You build glass cannon, expect to break. That's all there is to it. There are so many other builds with less risk, yet you choose to be glass, and you want Thief to suffer for it? What??

UNOwen.7132 · October 1, 2019

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
@Doug.4930 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:
@Cougre.6543 said:
@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:Oh yeah, you're totally right. 95% of the time it's not worth the effort now mounts are a thing, I'm more approaching this from a "if a nerf is inevitable, what would be the healthiest nerf overall" sort of perspective. There's burst builds that are way more threatening and there's sustain builds a one malice malicious backstab won't even scratch, so it's not something I'd think is a major balance priority right now.Then we are essentially on the same page, but I've taken it a step further. In the case that nerfing permastealth thief cannot come without repercussions for the rest of the class, then I'd like for it to only be nerfed if it is indeed a tangible problem.

Unfortunately most of the playerbase chooses to call for nerfs to things that they personally find annoying rather than what's actually OP.

Because fun and interactivity are just as important as balance. Permastealth oneshot cheese isnt good. But boy is it frustrating and uninteractive. It absolutely needs to be changed for just that reason alone, though how to do so without hitting regular thief is the tricky part.

Can't say i agree with this either. Nerfing a build/class because certain people don't like how it plays just isn't good enough. I hate how warriors can simply press a button and they cannot be killed. I hate how much passive survival mechanics are built into the class. But to say that warriors should be nerfed just because of my subjective tastes would be completely unreasonable.

@Jugglemonkey.8741 @Cougre.6543 @Sir Vincent III.1286

You all make good points, but I'm still not convinced that a thief being able to stack 12 seconds of stealth using initiative alone doesn't need some toning down. Moving the assassins signet to the elite would certainly hit oneshot backstabs builds, but I still think there would be collateral damage against other thief builds.

Removing a thieves ability to stack copious amounts of stealth using only initiative will only damage oneshot perma stealth builds.

You're not addressing the fact that one-shot-kill only happens to those who took the risk of building glass cannon. Nope, you don't want to acknowledge that at all since you're real objective is to ruin Thief builds. Besides, I, for one, am not really trying to convince you. I'm simply pointing out that you are wrong.

Building glass cannon means you take a risk of dying quickly when actually being attacked. It shouldnt mean that you can sometimes die from an enemy you didnt even know was there, without a chance to react. And frankly, permastealth oneshot builds are a thief build that should be "ruined". It adds nothing good to the game, and merely causes frustration. Even snipers in FPS at least have to respect sightlines.

lol, snipers in FPS do one shot kill all the time. What games are you playing?

You build glass cannon, expect to break. That's all there is to it. There are so many other builds with less risk, yet you choose to be glass, and you want Thief to suffer for it? What??

Yes, they do. But even then, you both have a chance to know where they are (and more importantly, you usually know they are there), and a chance to use sightlines to avoid them. Its borderline, but there is possibility for reactions. The same is not true for perma-stealth oneshot builds. One-shotting a glass cannon is fine. But not when you can do it without even showing your presence.

I want thief to be the best it can be. A class that while powerful and tricky, and in a way even a little unfair, doesnt leave you without a chance to react. I dont want it to just be a cheesy build noone likes.

Sir Vincent III.1286 · October 1, 2019

@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
@Doug.4930 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:
@Cougre.6543 said:
@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:Oh yeah, you're totally right. 95% of the time it's not worth the effort now mounts are a thing, I'm more approaching this from a "if a nerf is inevitable, what would be the healthiest nerf overall" sort of perspective. There's burst builds that are way more threatening and there's sustain builds a one malice malicious backstab won't even scratch, so it's not something I'd think is a major balance priority right now.Then we are essentially on the same page, but I've taken it a step further. In the case that nerfing permastealth thief cannot come without repercussions for the rest of the class, then I'd like for it to only be nerfed if it is indeed a tangible problem.

Unfortunately most of the playerbase chooses to call for nerfs to things that they personally find annoying rather than what's actually OP.

Because fun and interactivity are just as important as balance. Permastealth oneshot cheese isnt good. But boy is it frustrating and uninteractive. It absolutely needs to be changed for just that reason alone, though how to do so without hitting regular thief is the tricky part.

Can't say i agree with this either. Nerfing a build/class because certain people don't like how it plays just isn't good enough. I hate how warriors can simply press a button and they cannot be killed. I hate how much passive survival mechanics are built into the class. But to say that warriors should be nerfed just because of my subjective tastes would be completely unreasonable.

@Jugglemonkey.8741 @Cougre.6543 @Sir Vincent III.1286

You all make good points, but I'm still not convinced that a thief being able to stack 12 seconds of stealth using initiative alone doesn't need some toning down. Moving the assassins signet to the elite would certainly hit oneshot backstabs builds, but I still think there would be collateral damage against other thief builds.

Removing a thieves ability to stack copious amounts of stealth using only initiative will only damage oneshot perma stealth builds.

You're not addressing the fact that one-shot-kill only happens to those who took the risk of building glass cannon. Nope, you don't want to acknowledge that at all since you're real objective is to ruin Thief builds. Besides, I, for one, am not really trying to convince you. I'm simply pointing out that you are wrong.

Building glass cannon means you take a risk of dying quickly when actually being attacked. It shouldnt mean that you can sometimes die from an enemy you didnt even know was there, without a chance to react. And frankly, permastealth oneshot builds are a thief build that should be "ruined". It adds nothing good to the game, and merely causes frustration. Even snipers in FPS at least have to respect sightlines.

lol, snipers in FPS do one shot kill all the time. What games are you playing?

You build glass cannon, expect to break. That's all there is to it. There are so many other builds with less risk, yet you choose to be glass, and you want Thief to suffer for it? What??

Yes, they do. But even then, you both have a chance to know where they are (and more importantly, you usually know they are there), and a chance to use sightlines to avoid them. Its borderline, but there is possibility for reactions. The same is not true for perma-stealth oneshot builds. One-shotting a glass cannon is fine. But not when you can do it without even showing your presence.

You're either misinformed or just making things up. I've played hundreds of hours of FPS game to know first hand that you're full of IT. There is no "possible for reaction" if I am waiting for your head to pop in a corner, NONE, zero possibility of reaction. And no, you wouldn't know where I'm shooting from. There are danger zones, sure, but you'll have no idea where my perch is.

I want thief to be the best it can be. A class that while powerful and tricky, and in a way even a little unfair, doesnt leave you without a chance to react. I dont want it to just be a cheesy build noone likes.

Again. The only people who are complaining about "without a chance to react" are those who are building glass cannon. You're just being stubborn at this point.

UNOwen.7132 · October 1, 2019

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
@Doug.4930 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:
@Cougre.6543 said:
@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:Oh yeah, you're totally right. 95% of the time it's not worth the effort now mounts are a thing, I'm more approaching this from a "if a nerf is inevitable, what would be the healthiest nerf overall" sort of perspective. There's burst builds that are way more threatening and there's sustain builds a one malice malicious backstab won't even scratch, so it's not something I'd think is a major balance priority right now.Then we are essentially on the same page, but I've taken it a step further. In the case that nerfing permastealth thief cannot come without repercussions for the rest of the class, then I'd like for it to only be nerfed if it is indeed a tangible problem.