Doug.4930

I mean, at this point, asking for a change to blood lust in WvW would be like asking the flight attendant for more ice in your onboard beverage shortly after the aircraft's wings have fallen off.

This would be a great way to start balancing downstate. Balance should be done with a chisel never a sledge hammer.

Yea but that logic can be applied to every class/build in the game. This comment seems to imply that MM and reapers/core necros are anywhere near comparable to condi heralds in effectiveness for roaming. I would rather 2v1 a core and reaper necros than 1v1 a condi herald. Condi herald is the standout in the crowd right now for winning fights when roaming. Other classes outshine it in other areas such as mobility. But if you want the most meta build that makes everything die and has no real counter other than out-skilling them by a substantial amount, then condi herald is what you run.

That would be pretty good. 7 days out of 56 where I would log in and play all day before logging out before waiting another 2 months.

Two people spiking properly will eat through even dire or minstrel gear. If you think two (or any number of) people coordinating builds to work together should lose to two people simply playing... I don't think you understand how teamwork works. you're going to need to timestamp that video. And sure I'm willing to concede that 2 experienced players in voice comms can gank a minstrel player that doesn't know what their buttons do. But fights with groups partied up that know what their skills do are decided by whichever group has the minstrel. I could link video's of players winning 1v1's with a single offhand weapon only. Doesn't mean its balanced for people to use one single hand weapon. Such is life when the game is balanced once every 4 months. EDIT: Tried looking through that video, too long.

Did you just take every word you didn't like and threw them together in a couple of sentences? The gear makes them do two things, yes, tank and heal as heals don't crit or extend. That's similar to condition damage on classes that don't need crit or expertise to be effective. The gear doesn't give more buttons to push. Also, pocket healing is generally just when you put support around what used to be a solo roamer. In most common cases its simply a healer. Is the healing too much? The devs did what is still a fairly recent balance pass and seems happy with the balance between heals and damage. By fairly recent I'm assuming you're talking by anet standards. So within a year? Are you implying the devs being happy with the balance means its balanced? Devs also seem to be happy with the amount of content they release for WvW. Also you're right about condition damage. Blows my mind that condi herald is still not nerfed. But I can understand that condi herald is only good in certain situations like roaming. Minstrel builds are so over-tuned that they break the game in any mode of WvW in which they are present. Zerging/Havoc/Roaming you name it. If you come across a group running minstrel healers and you aren't, you lose. So yea condi builds are a plague that only infect the circles that I walk in which ill admit is roaming. I understand that nerfing them will make them even less viable in larger scale where power is still king for damage. So I appreciate the predicament despite my personal bias. Minstrel however is a plague that has spread to every facet of this game mode. It dominates the meta in everything it touches.You either run minstrel gear or you lose to the group that does. Skill becomes irrelevant. The boon spam, the heals, the cleansing, the projectile hate, how tanky they are. It just brings way too much to the table for the price of nothing. Also you're right about condition damage. Blows my mind that condi herald is still not nerfed. But I can understand that condi herald is only good in certain situations like roaming. Berserker builds are so over-tuned that they break the game in any mode of WvW in which they are present. Zerging/Havoc/Roaming you name it. If you come across a group running Berserker DPS and you aren't, you lose. So yea condi builds are a plague that only infect the circles that I walk in which ill admit is roaming. I understand that nerfing them will make them even less viable in larger scale where power is still king for damage. So I appreciate the predicament despite my personal bias. Berserker however is a plague that has spread to every facet of this game mode. It dominates the meta in everything it touches. You either run berserker gear or you lose to the group that does. Skill becomes irrelevant. The boon spam, the damage, the strips, the projectile hate, how powerful they are. It just brings way too much to the table for the price of nothing. ?????????????????????????????I can sort of appreciate your sentiment, but your argument doesn't amount to much when you can replace the primary keyword and it still be true. ......... What? Berserker? Of all the stats to draw comparisons to that's the one you chose? Your point is any group not running berserker gear will lose to groups that are running zerk?? Ill humour you. Tell me, assuming 2 duo roamer groups are equally skilled, 2 condi heralds vs 2 berserker heralds. Who wins? Or hell one berserker herald and one condi herald against 2 condi heralds? Spoiler alert the condi builds win. Because condi is typically stronger roaming. Despite the fact that berserker herald is more than viable it just isn't going to stand up to condi stats like dire/trailblazer. So..... im not really sure how you think berserker substitutes for minstrel at all. Its all too common that a group that is running zerk will lose to groups running dire, cele or other gear stats. But you throw a minstrel support class into that 2v2 [EDIT: Or any size fight to be honest] and whichever duo [or group] thats running it now becomes un-killable. All other gear stats are now irrelevant. Because like i said above no gear/build comes close to rivaling how much a minsterl support class brings to the table in ANY WvW related fight large or small. So you can edit my post to replace minstrel with any gear stat. Personally I would have gone with Marauders/trailblazer/dire etc as those gear stats are usually more powerful than straight zerk. But none of them, not even trailblazer which is an abomination in its own right comes close to affecting/breaking the game as much as minstrel gear does.

Did you just take every word you didn't like and threw them together in a couple of sentences? The gear makes them do two things, yes, tank and heal as heals don't crit or extend. That's similar to condition damage on classes that don't need crit or expertise to be effective. The gear doesn't give more buttons to push. Also, pocket healing is generally just when you put support around what used to be a solo roamer. In most common cases its simply a healer. Is the healing too much? The devs did what is still a fairly recent balance pass and seems happy with the balance between heals and damage. By fairly recent I'm assuming you're talking by anet standards. So within a year? Are you implying the devs being happy with the balance means its balanced? Devs also seem to be happy with the amount of content they release for WvW. Also you're right about condition damage. Blows my mind that condi herald is still not nerfed. But I can understand that condi herald is only good in certain situations like roaming. Minstrel builds are so over-tuned that they break the game in any mode of WvW in which they are present. Zerging/Havoc/Roaming you name it. If you come across a group running minstrel healers and you aren't, you lose. So yea condi builds are a plague that only infect the circles that I walk in which ill admit is roaming. I understand that nerfing them will make them even less viable in larger scale where power is still king for damage. So I appreciate the predicament despite my personal bias. Minstrel however is a plague that has spread to every facet of this game mode. It dominates the meta in everything it touches. You either run minstrel gear or you lose to the group that does. Skill becomes irrelevant. The boon spam, the heals, the cleansing, the projectile hate, how tanky they are. It just brings way too much to the table for the price of nothing.

Lets be honest though, the real problem with these supports is minstrel gear stat. The amount of boon spam/cleansing/healing these pocket healers can dish out all whilst being mobile tanks is insane. These supports don't support the group they're in. They outright carry them.

Or you know, you guys could just run a dragon hunter. In which case the only thing you need to consider when fighting a DE is whether or not your inventory has enough space for the bag you are about to receive. The only valid complaint is the same as its always been. D/P thief being able to attack from stealth with absolutely no tell whatsoever. Just whack, 6k opening from stealth. Best way to address that is to fix stealth stacking. Limit the amount of individual stealth stacks. Preferably stacks gained through combo fields that D/P in particular is the most effective at abusing. Using dodges and utilities for stealth is far more cost heavy than spending initiative when your main damage skill is not dependent on initiative. To continue being fair also the above changes should be contingent with marked being reworked in WvW. You can't ask for justified nerfs whilst being happy with a mechanic existing in the game that negates an entire thief traitline and two thief weapon sets. Two seconds followed by a 6 second reveal punishes the class in general not only those abusing perma stealth. Also yea hiding in keeps is too easy now that anet has given us build/gear templates. Just make a tank thief build and no group with less than 10 people is going to be able to kill you.

Well i mean its either that or make another thread. I think general consensus from the community is that downstate needs changing in some way. I have no doubt that anet will surely respond to a downstate thread soon giving the community of WvW an update of their plans for it in the future. Surely followed by a quick and speedy patch with some juicy and unexpected WvW content.

Its already been said but the reason for the 5 player cap is that the servers would combust if the cap was higher or non existent. Some people will say the caps there for balance. But blobs are one of the worst things about wvw. There is no drawback or sacrifice made by blobbing. Its nothing but positives. But due to the technology of the day its something we need to live with. I can only imagine the tactics that talented commanders/drivers could implement if the limit was not in place. But as has been said its an impossibility so the larger blob will usually always win.You hear stories of people claiming that single digit teams have taken out 40-50 size blobs, and I'm sure its happened on some occasions in this games history. But the stars need to perfectly align and the 40 newest/worst players in the game need to come together for it to be possible. maybe a squad of 10 could wipe 30 every once in a blue moon. But less than 10 vs 40+? Probably has happened at some point, but infrequently enough that it can colloquially be said its impossible.

Classes like thief ranger and warrior are better if you want to take on multiple opponents and runaway. (effectiveness in that order)

Really? I haven't been playing for the past week or so. I'm guessing if I logged into WvW right now I wouldn't see a single warclaw right? I mean who would nerf themselves by using something so pathetic and useless. A lot of classes like thief with SB, ranger with GS, warrior with GS or MH-SW ... are much faster than a warclawReally? Do those classes get that movement speed for free? Or do they need to sacrifice utility skills and weapon skills? Tell me do those classes also get CC immunity and an extra 8k worth of hit points for free too?

Really? I haven't been playing for the past week or so. I'm guessing if I logged into WvW right now I wouldn't see a single warclaw right? I mean who would nerf themselves by using something so pathetic and useless.

Ever been crowd controlled and hit for 5k by a sand shark? The less pve the better lol

I'm not bothered in the slightest brother, thanks for the concern though ^^ . I don't remember him at all or ever fighting, nor am I afraid. I welcome challenges. But currently i'm in EU so can't really do anything right now in terms of NA, but even being in EU tho, the ping is atrocious haha, so i'm looking to come back soon. I looked up nootski and his youtube stuff, he is a great S/D Thief, with great awareness, but i've mained S/D for 6+ years, as seen from my previous montages. I'm not too worried lol, although I am EXTREMELY rusty with the set now, since i've been running staff - DP mainly. But my S/D muscle memory and instinct would eventually come back after using the set for alittle bit. Thief is one of those classes where ego's run high, and where the skill cap window is even higher, thus making everyone reach and try to grab the throne. It'll always be like, that's why I welcome competition, and competitive nature. :] Good for you, I had a similar mindset 4 years ago, but after returning to the game recently I've lost the ego I used to have in years gone by. Just play the game for fun these days and hang out with friends. I've accepted it will never be the balanced and competitive game mode my past self wished it to be. But I still enjoy it, and like I said am still somewhat surprised people actually still take it seriously hahaha Oh and to complain about downstate in WvW. Because it can't hurt to have some aspirations for the game right? lol

@AikijinX.6258 @saerni.2584 Pretty sure this is @"noot.8641" build: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQNAsYVn0MBFmilOBGOBkmiFYCTLBEA2NephzQbY+DeCbhA-j1CEQBA4IA4P1dcneA48AA4iSQ3oJoJK/g3+Du8EA0IVCewhAYdABwkkUCYMGjxohUKlSp379kCQ1lRA-w I wouldn't let him get to you. Unless I've mixed him up with someone else he literally runs a troll tank S/D build with Durability runes (lol calling SA cheese when running these runes, pot calling the kettle black much.) stacking Valk/knights gear with soldiers and marauder thrown in. After he dueled my zerker short bow ranger mate to a stalemate he rage whispered him for running cheese claiming he was a core condi ranger.... despite the fact that he was running core zerker power. So his definition of cheese is anything he can't kill with his sustain thief. It bewilders me that people still have such raging ego's after this games balance was flushed down the toilet with HoT. And an apartment complex was built on the toilet with PoF. Run whatever build you find enjoyable. Don't let them get to you, just enjoy the whispers and have fun.

Not quite, because unfortunately players don't earn downstate through clever play or strategy, quite the opposite in fact.I'd say a rallying comparison would be more akin to a mechanic in which taken pieces return to the board.You mean like getting a queen back when you already lost yours? Or even getting 8 more queens max if you didnt already loose all your noobs pawns in the balls deep push? Hmmmmmmmmmm.... You're starting to enligten me to the fact WvW is more like chess than I imagined.Nice strawman. Its almost like my original analogy was a simple example in which to demonstrate my opinion that new players shouldn't be given extra tools to defeat experienced players. Whilst simultaneously demonstrating your opinion to the contrary, and was not intended to be taken literally and meticulously analysed. But grasp at whatever straws you can reach I guess. So, should we try to balance minstrels?Should we try to balance firebrands? NAH LETS JUST DELETE IT FROM THE GAME. ... Right? Actually truthfully, If I could delete the minstrel stat from the game I 100% would. EDIT: But then again If I could delete HoT and PoF expansions from WvW I'd do that too, so maybe I'm just nuts.

Not quite, because unfortunately players don't earn downstate through clever play or strategy, quite the opposite in fact.I'd say a rallying comparison would be more akin to a mechanic in which taken pieces return to the board. sPvP can't be compared to WvW in anyway. Its a completely different game mode with completely different mechanics and objectives. You could tell me to go and play counter strike if I hate downstate so much and it would have similar relevance. Just because WvW is harder to balance doesn't mean that we shouldn't try. For instance I know we agree that pocket healer minstrels are broken, would it not also be accurate for me to play devils advocate and say players who are fighting pocket healer comps should just "skill up"?

You just explained why he is wrong. That is one aspect of downed state, yes - it provides a balance check in combat that assist those less skilled to overcome and defeat those more skilled, instead of having no hope. A kind of force equalizer which allows flex in numbers. Because WvW is casual for an overwhelming majority. For others - those more skilled - it adds another tactical layer to combat instead of just making it pewpew braindead like your average fps shooter. Just because the game is casual doesn't mean we should limit the skill ceiling. Perfect example would be a game like super smash brothers. Super smash is casual in such a way that 4 friends can buy the game and play together without needing hours upon hours learning game mechanics before they can have fun. The controls are simple and after 5 mins you can pretty much have enough of a grasp to enjoy yourself.Alternatively, If 4 fairly experienced players were to fight one tourney champ 4v1 they would get demolished. This is excellent game balance and what gw2 should strive towards. Super smash is a game for everyone. Casual players can enjoy the simple game mechanics, whilst the more focused players have a huge amount of potential to excel. But wait, its already harder for the side that's fighting with less numbers. They already need to skill up to overcome a numerical disadvantage. Please explain the logic behind making it even more hard? You know whats funny this last sentence is simply perfect for my argument. Your statement can't possible apply to no downstate players. Because we already have hard fights because like I keep saying, we're already fighting outnumbered. Its already hard downstate or not. What we want is the larger group to not have more of an advantage. They have the numbers on their side and that should be it. But this is fruitless we fundamentally disagree on one thing.To go back to super smash brothers I believe that my 3 friends and I having zero chance at beating a tourney player in a 4v1 is exactly the way it should be. We 4 casual players don't deserve any crutch or boon or advantage etc that gives us more of a chance against a vastly more experienced player. If our numbers advantage isn't enough to overcome the skill gap then we should lose. Every. Single. Time. (which is what happened speaking as a noob smash bro's player with a friend who plays nothing but smash) He's put a colossal amount of time into the game where as we haven't and he deserves to slam dunk all 4 of us at once.Where as you believe that the 4 less experienced players should have game mechanics on their side that give them more of a chance against the one pro player to make it more fair to the less experienced. To lower the skill ceiling as it were. That's what this debate is about.Should the chess novice be given 5 additional queens so that they can compete with the chess grand master?You say Yes, I say No.

I wish this was true. But he's right. Because most people who play this game play it casually. And downstate is another tool in the more casual players arsenal that prevents them from being obliterated by players with superior skill and experience. Downstate ensures they remain safe in their blob. Same reason that posting nerfs in a specific classes sub forum is shouted down by the people who main that class. Its not always because the class doesn't need nerfs, its quite often the case that those people don't want to see a mechanic that they benefit from nerfed. Whether its overpowered or not is completely irrelevant to them. @scerevisiae.1972Unfortunately 70% of this players population are players that ball up into blobs. Downstate provides a crutch to 70% of players. So yea I'm afraid the argument of most people wanting downstate removed just isn't true, regardless how much people like us wish it were.

cmc already talked about that topic and said firebrand must be broken to give players the chance to play wvw, since every zerg relies strongly on firebrand stability. so yes, anet balancing is BIASED and it is intended, they dont hide it. they dont want to change it. Is that true? Can we get a citation? Not having a go at you or anything, but that logic just seems completely nuts to be legit. Let alone openly admitting to deliberately keeping a class brokenly OP so that new people can play it. To be fair though the main problem is minstrel. Why they thought adding minstrel stat to the game was ever a good idea bewilders me.

Yes but actually no. Because us no downstate lovers are usually in downstate getting cleaved by a group 2-3 times our size. Which is one of the biggest problems with downstate. If you go into downstate against a larger group GG you're dead 99% of the time. If you go into downstate while fighting for the larger group then GG you get revived 99% of the time. Thats the problem.Which still indicate two things: 1) It is a problem with numbers, which will always be there regardless of downed state or no. If you keep fighting a group 2-3 times your size and dont win, you need more people.Yes exactly the group 2-3 times bigger should win the fight without downstate. Downstate just acts as another boon for the larger group while being a hindrance to the smaller. Why should the larger group get more of an advantage on top of the already present numbers advantage? As much as I would like downstate deleted I could be open to compromise such as some of the changes you suggested.

this is just wrong. I see ranger and thieves ALL THE TIME. It's only during no-downstate-week, that you realize how much you suck, because you can't rally off of some random scrub. I love the no downstate. Maybe people start playing with more caution and brain instead of going full zerk when they have no skill. Imagine believing randomly getting oneshot by someone from stealth is being bad at the game. If that's what you call "Playing with more brain", no thanks. Peh - leaaaase... WHO exactly is ONESHOTTING you from stealth?!Whait what do you say? There are thieves in WvW? Must be new...MAYBE dont play full glass-cannon and use some of those other gazllion attribute combinations the game offers. Like Soldiers maybe...It's EXACTLY people like you that run around with their META kitten build and in full zerk gear and then complain when they get outplayed by everybody and who rely on rally to be able to play. Adapt to the situation and get better at the game instead of being a sheep and complaining about change. FACT: downed state is something that favors bad players more. Imagine saying there are no thieves in no downstate week, to start with. Put more thoughts into your answers if you want to sounds credible. I don't play full zerk, I play some equivalent of sage/menderbrand from sPvP lately, or DH sometimes. I also rarely get oneshot because I'm reactive enough to press my stunbreaks, dodges or aegis, and because most people playing those builds are terrible players. It's still incredible boring and stupid that they try to oneshot, fail miserably, stealth and port away, just to retry oneshotting you 15 seconds later. That's what I call kitten gameplay. Btw, I have all of sPvP's top 250 titles if you're worried I don't know how to play and get outplayed by everybody. Not that it's impressive at all, but I don't usually run into much troubles in WvWs 1v1 or reasonnable 1vXs. P.S : What an incredible surprise that you mention below you are playing some full zerk Deadeye builds. Read irony ofc. So nerf one shot builds. Move assassins signet to an elite skill. Lock stealth attacks after being stealthed for 6 seconds. Repeat similar steps for other problem builds. Its so much easier to actually balance problem builds than it is to degrade the game for everyone by having downstate be the way it is.

I would say anything that has a 2 skill that can deny stomps is objectively better. Mesmer/Thief/Ele. Ele has no counter you need to wait for the skill skip. Thief can be countered by a targeted teleport or an AOE teleport + stealth. Mesmer you need reveal and a teleport half the time. All other classes are easier to counter the 2 skills. Stability/teleporting/invulns/blinds/stealth etc. I still think that downstate skills should be the same. the 2 should CC the 3 should give a small heal or AOE damage.