NEW SKILLS for EXISTING SKILL TYPES

[Mik.3401]

On 9/7/2021 at 9:55 AM, Zergs.9715 said:

Yes, that's of the most baffling things I've seen on these forums. It's like some form of Stockholm-ish syndrome. Those people always provide convenient cover. Same thing happened with mounts. Luckily they weren't listened to then.

To me the post was valid as to what you have said before, no one follows your ‘post in other topic’ so you received a response to what you said.

Yes balance is hard, especially given their historic capabilities in creating balanced pvp, but without working hard on it there is no way to achieve success. Of course they can do nothing or focus on other things, but it doesn’t change the fact a balanced set of new skills would be great for the game in public eyes 

[Lazze.9870]

On 9/6/2021 at 10:34 AM, Kodama.6453 said:

Would still feel pretty bad for engineer if this happens.

Would engie had been designed differently if Anet had filled out the utility categories on launch?

I doubt it.

Edited September 10, 2021 by Lazze.9870

[Kodama.6453]

36 minutes ago, Lazze.9870 said:

Would engie had been designed differently if Anet had filled out the utility categories on launch?

I doubt it.

At launch, Anet actually didn't give a kitten about the skill categories anyway, so they wouldn't have filled them back then either way. Many of the healing skills which now are put into a skill category didn't have any at launch.

Healing spring wasn't a trap, mending wasn't a physical skill, hide in shadows wasn't a deception, etc. Engineer was the only class with all healing skills belonging into a category back then.

But anyway, that's beside the point. Filling the missing categories would just be fair towards the engineer class now if they rework engineer to give it a 5th skill category.

Edited September 10, 2021 by Kodama.6453

[Lazze.9870]

5 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

At launch, Anet actually didn't give a kitten about the skill categories anyway, so they wouldn't have filled them back then either way. Many of the healing skills which now are put into a skill category didn't have any at launch.

Healing spring wasn't a trap, mending wasn't a physical skill, hide in shadows wasn't a deception, etc. Engineer was the only class with all healing skills belonging into a category back then.

But anyway, that's beside the point. Filling the missing categories would just be fair towards the engineer class now if they rework engineer to give it a 5th skill category.

 

That wasn't the premise I gave you.

And the reason you call it unfair is because of the amount of skills. Healing skills not having categories back then doesn't change the number of skills.

You think it's unfair because you're missing out on something that you wouldn't have been given anyway.

Edited September 10, 2021 by Lazze.9870

[Kodama.6453]

31 minutes ago, Lazze.9870 said:

 

That wasn't the premise I gave you.

 

And the reason you call it unfair is because the amount of skills. Healing skills not having categories back then doesn't change the number of skills.

 

You think it's unfair because you're missing out on something that you wouldn't have been given anyway.

Wouldn't have been given anyway? How can you claim that? There is no precedence of anet foregoing adding skills to engineer on the same level than other classes.

All elite specs come with 1 healing skill, 4 utility skills and 1 elite skill. Even if engineer has other skill contribution on core, it gets the same contribution on these elite specs.

Then there is just 1 precedence of anet giving new skills to core: the new healing skills they added years ago. Each class got a new 4th healing skill, same for engineer once again.

Looking at launch, engineer also started with the same amount of healing skills and elite skills as other classes: 3 healing skill and 3 elite skills.

Anet may have given just 4 different skills categories to engineer, but they still actively chose to give the class the same amount of healing and elite skills as all the others. So there is no precedence of them not trying to treat engineer fairly on that matter.

Which for this suggestions means there are 2 options: adding a 4th elite skills to all classes and nothing more (has precedence, they already did this with healing skills) or they rework engineer to change some of their skills to a new 5th skill category, then giving all 1 new healing skill and 2 new elite skills.

Or I guess there is another option: if you claim that engineer is designed with this other design premise, then they should add 1 more gyro and exceed skill to the elite specs.

Engineer has 5 utility skills of each type. Elite specs just added 4 utility skills of the new skill category like for every other class, against what you claim to be engineer's design premise.

 

Edited September 10, 2021 by Kodama.6453

[Lazze.9870]

43 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Wouldn't have been given anyway? How can you claim that?

How?

Because that's how your class is kittening designed. You keep repeating the same arguments over and over again when the reality is that there was never equal footing to begin with.

Elite specs aren't a precedent for anything other than, extactly that, elite specs. Why is engineer being given a new weapon with every elite spec when the core class is designed to have fewer weapons in comparison to other classes? Because its an elite spec. The same reason they aren't giving you 5 utility skills when that's what core got.

If anything, core engie should instead have been given a second mainhand weapon in this fantasy world where we pretend Anet would ever fill out the blanks on the core classes.

Edited September 10, 2021 by Lazze.9870

[Kodama.6453]

11 minutes ago, Lazze.9870 said:

How?

Because that's how your class is kittening designed. You keep repeating the same arguments over and over again when the reality is that there was never equal footing to begin with.

Elite specs aren't a precedent for anything other than, extactly that, elite specs.

Core engie should instead have been given a second mainhand weapon in this fantasy world where we pretend Anet would ever fill out the blanks on the core classes.

Why exactly do you think engineer wouldn't have been designed differently if they wanted to have complete skill category sets?

There is nothing pointing at that, it is the opposite. Anet made sure to give engineer the same amount of healing and elite skills as other classes, why you think the precedence of filling all categories would have changed that? I believe they would have given the same amount of these skills types to engineer again, which means that the class needs more skill categories.

There WAS equal footing, at least when it comes to healing and elite skills, which this discussion is about. Engineer had 3 of each, like any other class. That is a fact, the classes were equal back then. And they kept staying equal with the introduction of a new healing skill for all classes.

So there was and even IS equal footing for engineer and the other classes. You are the one who wants to overthrow this established equality.

Edited September 10, 2021 by Kodama.6453

[Lazze.9870]

14 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Why exactly do you think engineer wouldn't have been designed differently if they wanted to have complete skill category sets?

Engie is already deliberately designed to have fewer weapons and no weapon swap because of kits and toolbelt skills. I don't think Anet would shy away from giving one or two fewer utility skills either.

You're basically arguing from the standpoint of  "unfair, fewer new shiny toys for engie". Has it ever made sense to talk about fairness when it comes to number of engie skills? No.

Then again, they gave engie an elite toolbelt skill and now pretends that's the trade-off for their elite specs. Maybe they would make an entire new category just out of "fairness". How do you reckon they would make it fair for revs?

Edited September 10, 2021 by Lazze.9870

[Kodama.6453]

1 hour ago, Lazze.9870 said:

Engie is already deliberately designed to have fewer weapons and no weapon swap because of kits and toolbelt skills. I don't think Anet would shy away from giving one or two fewer utility skills either.

You're basically arguing from the standpoint of  "unfair, fewer new shiny toys for engie". Has it ever made sense to talk about fairness when it comes to number of engie skills? No.

Then again, they gave engie an elite toolbelt skill and now pretends that's the trade-off for their elite specs. Maybe they would make an entire new category just out of "fairness". How do you reckon they would make it fair for revs?

Your point about the elite toolbelt trade off actually showcases one of the major design flaws in engineer: it lacks design space.

This skill got added specifically to serve as a "replace this for elite spec mechanic" button if we are honest. Because how engineer is designed, they can't really trade anything else for the new mechanics.

Guardian for example can trade all their virtues for new versions with altered effects, same for thief. Engineer can't replace the entire toolbelt because it is so highly customizable and the class is heavily reliant on it.

They can't take away kits as a trade off, since this would mean to take too many skills and basically weapons from engineer.

What else CAN we give up? The only other thing are stat penalties coming to mind, like how scrapper has reduced vitality.

This exact problem is another reason why I think they would have approached engineer a bit different if they would rebuild all classes in the fantasy world you mentioned. Engineer causes too many problems in their freedom of design how it currently is. This problem about skill categories is one of them.

Revenant is another hindrance for the addition of healing and elite skills. How they are designed, they just have 2 options and both are not really fair compared to the other classes: give reve a new core legend, giving them a new heal and elite skill, but 3 additional utility skills on top. Or not giving it a new legend, which leaves them with a bad taste if all other classes get new tools.

And the suggested additional core weapon does not equal the power of a new healing and 2 new elite skills either. That's why I doubt that Anet will make additions to core classes at all at this point.

Edited September 10, 2021 by Kodama.6453

[Lazze.9870]

4 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

And the suggested additional core weapon does not equal the power of a new healing and 2 new elite skills either.

It can go both ways. A new weapon opens up more options when you combine it with elite specs. Giving engie an off-hand with any new elite is pointless as of now. It could also give support engie builds a more suited weapon alongside shield.

A new healing skill might as well be a dud. Like Water Spirit which is what ranger got. Has never really been a relevant skill, it just slots in with the rest of the druid spirit bot build. Half ot those healing skills they added way back are really niche. Same goes for a lot of the elite spec heals too.

As for elite, you'd still get at least one with the gadget, plus a new toolbelt skill.

4 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

This skill got added specifically to serve as a "replace this for elite spec mechanic" button if we are honest. Because how engineer is designed, they can't really trade anything else for the new mechanics.

Guardian for example can trade all their virtues for new versions with altered effects, same for thief. Engineer can't replace the entire toolbelt because it is so highly customizable and the class is heavily reliant on it.

They can't take away kits as a trade off, since this would mean to take too many skills and basically weapons from engineer.

What else CAN we give up? The only other thing are stat penalties coming to mind, like how scrapper has reduced vitality.

It wasn't though, it was an addition to engineer before trade-offs where ever thought of and scrapper initally kept it. Then they re-purposed into a trade-off.

Which, funnily enough, is an example of engineer getting something new out of nowhere when no one else did. Then it became really handy when they decided to make trade-offs, so you also got away with the half-assed trade-offs (like they have done to ranger elite specs, another class which easily could have been given a core F5 for seamless trade-offs).

Edited September 10, 2021 by Lazze.9870

[Zenith.7301]

A stunbreak phantasm skill for mesmer, or making phantasmal defender break stuns. One of the revenant ventari skills should break stun, the one that cleanses condis would be a good candidate.