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Necro MM Elite Proposal.


Jobber.6348

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Would like to propose a rough idea for a Necro MM Espec, which alters Shroud play and focuses on Minions as well as how Minions and the Necromancer interact.

Host

Is the name I have chosen to represent this concept.

Primary differences once this spec has been chosen :

  • Shroud will be altered
  • NO NEW UTILITIES, but existing ones are now altered.
  • New weapon to support a mid ranged skirmisher (MH Sword)

Aesthetic

Imagine Lich King of Angmar vibes, commanding a small army consisting mainly of Ghosts and Ghouls.Lich King from Warcraft can also serve as a familiar image.

Shroud alteration

Main feature upon equipping this Specialization is that Shroud will now become a Second Skin by default.This means Shroud health will now exist and persist over the Necromancer as a second layer of health, with no degen.Lifeforce is still gained normally, through deaths of allies, allied pets, and enemies alike around the Necromancer.

The reason for this is the second portion of this "Host Shroud", where upon casting a Shroud active, the Necromancer "sheds" this Shroud layer and turns them into a Minion.The new Shroud skills are as such :

F1 - ExhumeSpend some Life force to summon a Vengeful Spirit which will attack foes. Reactivate to redirect Vengeful Spirit to attack the enemy that the Necromancer is currently targeting

F2 - CarrionSpend some Life force to summon 2 Ghouls, which will attack the closest enemy and apply Cripple. Ghouls will expire after 5 seconds.Upon expiring naturally, they will heal in a small AoE around them. Ghouls can be killed prematurely in order to halt their effects and to prevent their second effect from activating.

F3 - Rotting GravelingSpend some Life force to command a Rotting Graveling to burst out from the target AoE.Targets caught in the small AoE will be Feared.A persisting Poison Cloud will blanket the small AoE until the Rotting Graveling is killed or Recalled by reactivating this skill, refunding a small amount of Life force

F4 - Hand of ZhaithanSpend some Life force to manifest an Abomination.The Abomination has a Charge attack similar to Flesh Golem and their Enemy versions which knocks back. Reactivate the skill to command the Charge.

F5 - UndertakerUpon activation, reabsorbs all currently active Minions into Life force.This skill exists to recall minions once combat is finished, as well as recall minions in a pinch to protect themselves if the Necromancer is in dire need of extra health and need to replenish their Shroud-Life force

ALL THESE SKILLS SHOULD HAVE A COOLDOWN.

But what about our existing minion skills?

Altered Minion Utilities

As the spec aims to integrate Minions into Shroud, some old minion utilities will be altered to support this instead of simply summoning more Minions.

Blood FiendTurned into an Altered version of Taste of Death.Upon activation, it will heal and cause all Minions currently active to also Siphon health to the Necromancer for 5 seconds

Bone FiendTurns into Altered Rigor Mortis which will now Stunbreak and inflict immobilize and damage enemies who are nearby upon its activation.

Bone MinionsWill remain the same.

Flesh WurmRemains the same.

Shadow FiendTurns into Altered Haunt, which will deal damage, inflict conditions and also Reveal in an AoE around their target Area.

Flesh GolemTurns into Altered Charge which will grant Barrier and Stability to the Necromancer as they dash for 600 range.

Main Hand Sword

The idealistic combat range for this Spec is mid ranged, so a mid ranged "spell-sword" would be great to add to the arsenal which Necro already has access to in order to duel or overwhelm opponents.

Skill 1 - Putrid Gash

  • Deals damage and applies one stack of Poison.
  • Hitting a target with more than 5 stacks of Poison will cause this skill to deal 50% more damage and generate 1% Life force.
  • 500 Range, hits 1 target.

Skill 2 - Dark Presence

  • 500 Range AoE which pulses Might to up to 5 Allies.
  • Channeled skill, 2 seconds.
  • 4 Pulses
  • Also pulses Blind to enemies in the AoE.
  • Dark Field

Skill 3 - Lone Walker

  • Deals 100% more damage to an Isolated enemy.
  • Heals for 50% of damage dealt.
  • Heals for double if there are no Allies within 500 range.
  • 200 range
  • hits 1 enemy only.

Feel free to give feedback, or bash it.

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1- What's the shroud? I mean, what is the skill that let you benefit from the "when entering/exiting shroud" traits and the "while in shroud" traits?2- How does the shrd#1/shrd#2/shrd#4 traits interact with the spec?3- Altered minion utilities: No please, no! An elite spec isn't supposed to "alter" core utilities.4- Not really excited by the sword skills.

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@"Dadnir.5038" said:1- What's the shroud? I mean, what is the skill that let you benefit from the "when entering/exiting shroud" traits and the "while in shroud" traits?That would be Shroud 5 then.I can see a problem now, where there are cases where yu won't wanna just pop it wily nilly for the Shroud flashing effects... might refine this in the future.

2- How does the shrd#1/shrd#2/shrd#4 traits interact with the spec?Shroud 1 will be on the Spirit's auto attack.Shroud 2 will work on the expiration effect of the Ghoul.Shroud 3 skills will work around the Rotting Graveling.Shroud 4 skills won't work around the Abomination, but will be around the Necromancer.

Not all Shroud skill improvements will be great for this Spec, and some would definitely be worth taking over others.

3- Altered minion utilities: No please, no! An elite spec isn't supposed to "alter" core utilities.We do not need more and more and more skills to balance or scratch our heads trying to decide if they fit a theme or are even worth picking, we need existing skills which are lacklustre to be brushed up and put back onto the table.

4- Not really excited by the sword skills.Keeping it simple.Last thing we need is more weapons that deal like, 3 things per skill and are so hard to balance that they receive nerfs.Skill 1 is a nice simple skill that supports Condi, Power and Hybrid play.Skill 2 is primarily a buffing skill, and secondarily a skill to deter melee attackers. I considered adding Projectile hate here too, but imo it might be too strong.Skill 3 is a no-nonsense sustain/dueling skill.If an enemy is fighting 1v1, this skill will always deal double damage and heal for half that amount.If the Necromancer is caught with their pants down, this skill allows them to heal for more as long as they themselves are Isolated, which can be done easily by recalling all their Minions.

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@Yasai.3549 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:2- How does the shrd#1/shrd#2/shrd#4 traits interact with the spec?Shroud 1 will be on the Spirit's auto attack.That's gonna be broken.Shroud 2 will work on the expiration effect of the Ghoul.2 ghoul is gonna be 1 to many ghoul then. Let's spare us from further espec specific split on
path of corruption
.Shroud 3 skills will work around the Rotting Graveling.Not an issue there is no shrd#3 trait that I can recall at the moment.Shroud 4 skills won't work around the Abomination, but will be around the Necromancer.Like scourge then.

We do not need more and more and more skills to balance or scratch our heads trying to decide if they fit a theme or are even worth picking, we need existing skills which are lacklustre to be brushed up and put back onto the table.

The issue is that you alter some existing things that are not lacking (Blood fiend, shadow fiend, golem) while you do not alter things that are lacking (bone minions). At the very least you'd have to bring some alterations to every single minions and try to bring them all at the same level of usefulness. Here you're just kicking bone minions further into the trash can.

The spec might also end up being able to summon a bit to many minions on the field which would be a sure source of complains (especially in sPvP).

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@Dadnir.5038 said:

That's gonna be broken.

I think it's gonna be okay-ish.It's not like Shroud 1s all already have a 1/2 second AA timer recast.In fact, it's abit of a nerf since the Spirt can be targeted and killed, and that means if it is killed early, its potential damage output is killed.But I can see it being strong in PvE, which is what I'm counting on.

2 ghoul is gonna be 1 to many ghoul then. Let's spare us from further espec specific split on path of corruption.

Eh... sounds good to me tho.

Not an issue there is no shrd#3 trait that I can recall at the moment.

Aside from the new Spite GM which gives Quickness on Fear and Shroud 3 CD, but yea, no bonus Shroud 3 traits atm.

The issue is that you alter some existing things that are not lacking (Blood fiend, shadow fiend, golem) while you do not alter things that are lacking (bone minions). At the very least you'd have to bring some alterations to every single minions and try to bring them all at the same level of usefulness. Here you're just kicking bone minions further into the trash can.

Yu may be right there, but honestly with how many slots yu have to slot utilities bar healing and elite, yu never ever slot Bone Minions anyway.

The spec might also end up being able to summon a bit to many minions on the field which would be a sure source of complains (especially in sPvP).

Not if yu consider point above, and besides, I think Rise Reaper MMs summon way more and are even more annoying to deal with.

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  • 1 month later...

@Obtena.7952 said:I'm completely against the idea of an espec that centers around a specific family of skills. Not even the current especs do that.

Herald and Renegade kinda focuses on their own Legend, and by extension, that specific family of skills though.And this is by design too.

I'm just trying to suggest a MM spec which improves upon a really mundane and sometimes lacklustre aspect of Core Necro, which is never explored much due to how much better the other utilities are.

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@Yasai.3549 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:I'm completely against the idea of an espec that centers around a specific family of skills. Not even the current especs do that.

Herald and Renegade kinda focuses on their own Legend, and by extension, that specific family of skills though.And this is by design too.

Right ... that's specific to the whole Revenant concept as a class though (and for the record, I'm not a massive fan of that approach either).

I'm just trying to suggest a MM spec which improves upon a really mundane and sometimes lacklustre aspect of Core Necro, which is never explored much due to how much better the other utilities are.

Well, I think that MM IS part of the problem with the mundane/lacklustre aspect of Core necro ... improving it could make it MORE mundane/lacklustre. Put it this way ... you think Core necro is mundane/lacklustre because MM isn't good enough? I think that's highly questionable.

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@Obtena.7952 said:

Well, I think that MM IS part of the problem with the mundane/lacklustre aspect of Core necro ... improving it could make it MORE mundane/lacklustre. Put it this way ... you think Core necro is mundane/lacklustre because MM isn't good enough? I think that's highly questionable.

What? No?

I'm saying MM is a lacklustre part of Core Necro because it's never really expanded on.I mean, just look at DM : Even though it does support MM play, yu could essentially pick DM just for defensive traits and ignore Minions anyway.

Turrets are the exact same, with Inventions having like, 1 trait which support Turrets just for the heck of it, and that's all.That's why Turrets and Minions are just big meh : They aren't given any treatment to make them fun and engaging to play.

If we can have Ranger having an entire traitline, Beastmastery, to support extensive Pet play, why can't Necro (and Engi) have a Espec, or at least a spec, which properly expands on Minion (or Turret) play?

Are yu gonna seriously start saying that Minions (and turrets) are just not worth Anet's attention and should be left in the dust?

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@Yasai.3549 said:

Well, I think that MM IS part of the problem with the mundane/lacklustre aspect of Core necro ... improving it could make it MORE mundane/lacklustre. Put it this way ... you think Core necro is mundane/lacklustre because MM isn't good enough? I think that's highly questionable.

What? No?

I'm saying MM is a lacklustre part of Core Necro because it's never really expanded on.I mean, just look at DM : Even though it does support MM play, yu could essentially pick DM just for defensive traits and ignore Minions anyway.

Sure you can, but just because a trait line is usable without strictly using one set of utility skills doesn't suddenly make those utility skills lackluster by default. That's a pretty weird reasoning and I don't really see the relevance here.

If we can have Ranger having an entire traitline, Beastmastery, to support extensive Pet play, why can't Necro (and Engi) have a Espec, or at least a spec, which properly expands on Minion (or Turret) play?

Pet is ranger's mechanic and its inherent part, while minions/turrets are utility spells. Not really the same thing.

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@Yasai.3549 said:If we can have Ranger having an entire traitline, Beastmastery, to support extensive Pet play, why can't Necro (and Engi) have a Espec, or at least a spec, which properly expands on Minion (or Turret) play?

Well, we could ... but I don't think we should. There are a few reasons, most notably, it's too limited in scope as an espec and it's not new because it borrows on already existing content to make the espec work.

I would also argue that to the extent that minions are a set of SKILLS that are conceptually NOT pets or turrets (and obviously not intended to be so), that Death magic ALREADY exceeds it's limit in what would be reasonable for a number of traits that are specific to enhancing a skill set. To push that even further to a whole espec is excessive and hardly justified.

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@"Sobx.1758" said:

Sure you can, but just because a trait line is usable without strictly using one set of utility skills doesn't suddenly make those utility skills lackluster by default. That's a pretty weird reasoning and I don't really see the relevance here.

While I can see Engi being related to Turrets as abit of a stretch, but Necromancer as an archetype (I'm not talking about Gw2's Necro atm) is kinda one which plays which practices magic relating to the dead to raise as minions or summon spirits as a primary identity.

I just feel it strange that Necromancer in Gw2 just decides to leave Minions as is for so long, which is kinda why we often have newer players popping up with the age old "Is MM viable? I feel like Minions are weak"

Even in Gw1, they have a whole slew of Minion skills, and have an entire arsenal of supportive abilities to aid in supporting Minion attacks and such.

I'm not saying we should make Minions the main focus of Necromancer, but it should be an important aspect, just as much as one of the four elements is important to Elementalist, Minions should be more important as well.

I feel like an MM Spec which changes minion mechanics and supports minion play would be pretty good, because Espec as Especs go, are a more focused specialization, like how Reaper is focused on Melee.

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@Yasai.3549 said:

@"Sobx.1758" said:

Sure you can, but just because a trait line is usable without strictly using one set of utility skills doesn't suddenly make those utility skills lackluster by default. That's a pretty weird reasoning and I don't really see the relevance here.

While I can see Engi being related to Turrets as abit of a stretch, but Necromancer as an archetype (I'm not talking about Gw2's Necro atm) is kinda one which plays which practices magic relating to the dead to raise as minions or summon spirits as a primary identity.

I just feel it strange that Necromancer in Gw2 just decides to leave Minions as is for so long, which is kinda why we often have newer players popping up with the age old "Is MM viable? I feel like Minions are weak"

It really doesn't matter what you think a class should be based on other games/media, it matters what it is in this particular game and how its traits/skills (as that's what we were talking about above) work in relation to other classes.And pretty sure "necromancers" primary theme is using death magic and contacting the dead, not "swarming everyone with undead armies"."minions are weak" = I can't build tanky and let minions carry me with their free dmg. I think it's ok to have expectations based on own imagination or previous games someone played, but then there comes the time to confront those expectations with the reality and how any given class/mechanic works in the game you're playing.

Even in Gw1, they have a whole slew of Minion skills, and have an entire arsenal of supportive abilities to aid in supporting Minion attacks and such.

  1. Different game
  2. Honestly pretty much all I see in this sentence is something along the lines: "the devs tried it in the previous game and didn't like it, so it's not included in this one". If they decide to include it in the future, then it's still their choice, but currently repeating "but in that game it works like that!" doesn't make much sense and doesn't exactly serve as a valid argument imo. It's just not the same game and I don't think it should try being the same.

I'm not saying we should make Minions the main focus of Necromancer, but it should be an important aspect, just as much as one of the four elements is important to Elementalist, Minions should be more important as well.

"It shouldn't be a main focus, but it needs to be an important aspect"? I don't know how to understand that. What does "important aspect" (while not making it a "main focus") mean? Isn't the minions being one of the utility skills category alongside with multiple supporting them traits important enough? I think it is. And if it's not, then again I don't understand what you mean by that.It's not "one of the four elements of elementalist" the same way it's not "the equivalent of ranger's pet". Because these are profesison mechanics. And profession mechanics seem to be more or less "main focus" of the class. But you said you're not saying minions should be the main focus? I'm lost in your way of grading what's "main" or "important". It's like you try to say you don't want it to be the main profession mechanic but you also do.

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@"Sobx.1758" said:

"It shouldn't be a main focus, but it needs to be an important aspect"? I don't know how to understand that. What does "important aspect" (while not making it a "main focus") mean? Isn't the minions being one of the utility skills category alongside with multiple supporting them traits important enough? I think it is. And if it's not, then again I don't understand what you mean by that.It's not "one of the four elements of elementalist" the same way it's not "the equivalent of ranger's pet". Because these are profesison mechanics. And profession mechanics seem to be more or less "main focus" of the class. But you said you're not saying minions should be the main focus? I'm lost in your way of grading what's "main" or "important". It's like you try to say you don't want it to be the main profession mechanic but you also do.

Yur overthinking what I mean.

I'm saying that Minions should be more important on the level of 1 of the 4 elements because I feel that Minions need to take a more active role in Necro's identity.

I get that Gw2 is a different sort of game, but a loss of identity can cause at the least confusion for people looking at a Profession and going "I want to play this".

It's abit like mis-naming a product.Necro as it is right now is just all aesthetically a Necromancer, but it has literally nothing to do with actually dealing with Death related Magic besides Life Force.

Could essentially rename all of Necro's mechanics and skills and any newbie wouldn't know it was a Necromancer by design.

It's really a Necromancer by name only.

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@Yasai.3549 said:

@"Sobx.1758" said:

"It shouldn't be a main focus, but it needs to be an important aspect"? I don't know how to understand that. What does "important aspect" (while not making it a "main focus") mean? Isn't the minions being one of the utility skills category alongside with multiple supporting them traits important enough? I think it is. And if it's not, then again I don't understand what you mean by that.It's not "one of the four elements of elementalist" the same way it's not "the equivalent of ranger's pet". Because these are profesison mechanics. And profession mechanics seem to be more or less "main focus" of the class. But you said you're not saying minions should be the main focus? I'm lost in your way of grading what's "main" or "important". It's like you try to say you don't want it to be the main profession mechanic but you also do.

Yur overthinking what I mean.

I'm saying that Minions should be more important on the level of 1 of the 4 elements because I feel that Minions need to take a more active role in Necro's identity.

Am I overthinking it? I just don't understand what you mean by that (and apparently maybe neither do you). "1 of 4 elements" is 1/4th of a profession mechanic, I don't understand your comparison at all, especially in the light of you claiming "you're not saying it should be a main necro focus", while you constantly try to compare/equalize it with profession-specific main mechanics.

I get that Gw2 is a different sort of game, but a loss of identity can cause at the least confusion for people looking at a Profession and going "I want to play this".

But they can easly "play this", what's the confusion? That minions aren't an auto-winning zerg?

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@"Sobx.1758" said:"It shouldn't be a main focus, but it needs to be an important aspect"? I don't know how to understand that. What does "important aspect" (while not making it a "main focus") mean? Isn't the minions being one of the utility skills category alongside with multiple supporting them traits important enough? I think it is. And if it's not, then again I don't understand what you mean by that.

If anything ... the minion thing is over emphasized. There are three traits dedicated to this set of minion skills alone ... typically, classes get one trait dedicated to a set of skills if at all. Frankly, I think the whole minion aspect need to be toned DOWN, not up. It has an over representation in traits and it's the most un-interactive gameplay in GW2. From the aspect of theme, I believe minions on necro are too obvious, typical, familiar in a game where Anet has tried to turn traditional concepts of MMO's on it's ear. OP should recognize he's lucky minions are as strongly implemented as they are.

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