Staff: condi vs power ...

[Sifu.9745]

Is it just me or Staff with Power gear really do way more dmg than condi staff? I would expect the opposite, but i kill stuff really fast when using Power Staff instead of condition one. GS dmg is still superior, off course, but Power Staff can deal some really nice burst dmg thx to Shatter skills (Mind Wrack), while condition one takes ages to kill something. I am a bit confused, i always thought that Staff is condi weapon (dmg wise only) until now.

[Hibiskus.8294]

Well beside the high Cooldown, the slow cast, the random bounce from 1 (that sometimes hit enemies that you dont wanna fight, but in some way i love that random bounce), the slow projectile speed and the long after-cast-delay...yeah staff is more a Power weapon, the Condis are a "nice" to have but because of the random factor and the slow speed from 1 you can not stack condis well....BUT: Power Staff is really strong...not with the 1, or 2....BUT: your Phantasm on 3 scales with Power...and it is not just that: it is maybe one of the slowest attacking Phantasms from all our Phantasms...BUT: It also gets 10% more Dmg for every Condi that is on your enemie......and that means: when you are hitting World Bosses with a big Group then there are much Condis....and your dmg is pretty high since your Phantasm can also crit (just when you have enough crit hit / crit dmg)...sou yes i think staff on Power is better then staff on condi...just the projectile speed and cast time are a little bit to slow for my taste and the after-cast-delay could be a little bit shorter. Staff is 100% better as Power weapon for my taste.

[OriOri.8724]

Staff was a condi weapon, but it didn't keep up with condi creep (which imo is a good thing. Too much power creep in this game).

[Warlyx.6732]

staff needs a total revamp to be fair is outdated and doesnt bring anything to the table outside range and randomness , yeah thats a mesmer thing back in the old tyria times

[Pelto.9364]

A bit higher damage to staff 1 and larger distance to staff 2. I play power scepter/sword and have tested staff as second set, but I feel scepter/torch as second set wins, even the second set scepter shares cooldowns. I'm stuck with staff when enemy aggressively attacks in random 1v1. Maybe l2p issue, I would like to see videos about how best mesmers play power staff.

[Llethander.3972]

Power Staff is more of a shatter/mobility build, tbh. You can use Staff 2 to either move around faster or as an instant clone. In the past it used to be used a lot with Mirror Images in order to quickly get up a 3-clone Mind Wrack.

[Opopanax.1803]

Has anyone tried a Carrion build with staff as a hybrid? Or vipers? How does it mix? I've been messing around with an incomplete carrion set and like it pretty well. I have not tried full power with staff and am curious how it compares.

[Curunen.8729]

The auto is hybrid, the ambush incentivises hybrid (3 stacks of might + fury) and the phantasm is power.

All that's needed is for iWarlock to become hybrid.

Staff is solid when going viper/cele, especially now you can stack some might.

[Sifu.9745]

Why would i want hybrid gear just because of Staff? I always take gear based on my main weapon set. I can't imagine a situation when Staff can become a primary weapon choice. If a hybrid would work with scepter or axe then i could change my mind :)Also i think staff auto is still more condi then hybrid: direct dmg is probably the lowest in the game, while Bleeds can still reach 1000 + with condi gear. If i want to play as hybrid i would go with Sinister gear, it,s still more condi than power oriented. But staff burst direct dmg is surprisingly high.I would still rather take Staff as Power secondary weapon set when needed. Is just that i have no idea when should i use it: as Power i would usually take swords + greatsword, as condi Scepter +axe ... If staff would have way more defensive skills i would take it for WvW or PvP, but Swords provides better defensive cooldowns that staff.

[Curunen.8729]

Scepter does a lot of direct damage if you gear for it, and axe does a decent amount of direct damage.

All of these weapons (staff, scepter, axe) work well in hybrid gear such as viper.

Yes staff could really do with something like an evade frame on skill 4, although with mirage you can put evade frames wherever you want.

[Llethander.3972]

As Curunen said, the Scepter actually does have a decent power coefficient. The reason it doesn't tend to get taken in PvE situations is because of the lack of cleave. Against single targets the auto-attacks and 3 skill both do comparable damage to the mainhand Sword. The other downside is the fact that you basically need to take the Malicious Sorcery trait which now directly competes with Phantasmal Force (one of the best traits for a power build).

[FaboBabo.3581]

Scepter/axe/sword all work great as hybrid.Currently running sword/torch , staff for example work great in hybrid. Staff is the top hybrid weapon and power/condi is really good with it!

[Llethander.3972]

Staff is, honestly, a very sub-optimal option. The problem with Staff is in its randomness and I, personally, feel that it could do with a notable overhaul. iWarlock is amazing against bosses, bounties, and other enemies that live long as it has the highest DPS of all phantasms against a target sporting at least one stack of every unique condition. The auto-attack is the issue in that it has a slow travel time and bounces randomly. Because it bounces three times if you are fighting one enemy this means you will end up hitting it twice but, on the other hand, if you are fighting multiple enemies your damage will be split between them all. As a result of this, and the long cooldowns on the rest of the Staff skills, it loses to the Greatsword in a power build.

It's still a decent option in a Condi or Hybrid build however I, personally, would recommend taking Axe/Torch/Pistol for a Condi build instead. In fights against weak enemies the ability to quickly get up multiple clones with Axe will make for a great ability to burst them down. In longer fights, though, you'll likely be relying more on Phantasms paired with personal damage over shatters. I mean, you can go the shatter route but it ends up being a slightly weaker performer vs. phantasms. The iWarlock, though, requires a very specific set of circumstances - ie. the enemy needs to be loaded with every condition - in order to outperform the other Phantasms. This only tends to happen in World Bosses and Bounties.

In a hybrid build I would probably use Axe/Torch/Scepter or Axe/Torch + Scepter/Pistol instead of using Staff because Axe is the best option for melee while Scepter offers better damage at range while also offering amazing clone generation to power shatters or distract mobs. Staff ends up being more of a utility weapon but it really loses a lot due to the randomness of the auto-attack and skill 5.

Don't get me wrong, Staff is one of my favorite weapons on Mesmer and I really want to use it but I find that, as I play a pure power build, I'm better off using Greatsword if I want a ranged option. Phantasmal Berserker into Mirror Blade is an amazing opener, Mind Stab has boon removal, it has a knockback, and has a higher damage output compared to staff. In addition, if traited it also provides a notable amount of personal might and cripples enemies.

[Curunen.8729]

Sure base staff could use some buffs to damage as well as tweaks on skills 1, 3 and 4, and even 5 could have a lower cooldown (ie 30s).

But you're forgetting staff ambush with IH, which at least in open world and casual t4 is good at stacking a lot of might (line up your clones) as well as a lot of condi if you build to maximise mirage cloak access through dodge and mirrors. It's also multiple target (scepter is single target and axe requires melee) which is solid in clusters of npcs, together with normal staff auto which is also aoe through bouncing. You can also just let the clones go to work and be lazy if you like, focusing on personal survival while they melt through things - particularly if you also take deceptive evasion and sharper images.

It could use a cast time reduction to .75s, as well as target tracking and a wider effect radius, but the ambush, while not the peak of efficiency if you're wanting "max raid dps", at least makes staff playable for some damage.

Although yes even I have come to the conclusion that sadly Elusive Mind is a necessity in any form of pvp or wvw. I sure hope IH is moved to minor at some point in a future patch.

[Lanhelin.3480]

I use a Staff of the Berserker too with my core power build, besides Sw/Sw. It seems to be weak and random due to the bouncings of autoattack and clone-attack but it has some advantages I'd never want to miss. Phase Retreat offers great mobility and the clone can be used as a shield for about 1 to 2 hits, if one doesn't move after summoning it. Staff clones have a unique behavior no other illusion has: they appear despite there is no obstacle-free line of sight to the focused mob. So one can summon them while hiding behind an object to be 100% sure they will grab the aggro first, all other illusions just won't appear but their skill goes on cd (this also works with Mirror Images if a staff is equipped). Another possibility is to get as close to the enemy that PR just is in range, then hit it and because of teleport backwards out of range ones own autoattack won't hit but the clone's one and again 100% aggro grabbing by the clone. The attack of staff clones also applies all conditions and boons of Winds of Chaos, so fighting with clones+Warlock isn't that bad against a group. Adding unwanted mobs because of bouncings only is kind of a problem in early levels as long as the cds of the skills are higher, but at max level one would have fought them anyway, whether now or later doesn't matter much.In most events against waves of enemies it's enough to lay down Chaos Storm and get Gold if other players land a few combo hits. The Domination tree can enhance Chaos Storm greatly because of its daze effect that counts as interruption.I use Chaos Armor frequently, but it's hard to tell whether it makes a significant difference or not. It doesn't feel like a life saving skill, but it could be so, I don't know.

[Llethander.3972]

@Curunen.8729 said:Sure base staff could use some buffs to damage as well as tweaks on skills 1, 3 and 4, and even 5 could have a lower cooldown (ie 30s).

But you're forgetting staff ambush with IH, which at least in open world and casual t4 is good at stacking a lot of might (line up your clones) as well as a lot of condi if you build to maximise mirage cloak access through dodge and mirrors. It's also multiple target (scepter is single target and axe requires melee) which is solid in clusters of npcs, together with normal staff auto which is also aoe through bouncing. You can also just let the clones go to work and be lazy if you like, focusing on personal survival while they melt through things - particularly if you also take deceptive evasion and sharper images.

It could use a cast time reduction to .75s, as well as target tracking and a wider effect radius, but the ambush, while not the peak of efficiency if you're wanting "max raid dps", at least makes staff playable for some damage.

Although yes even I have come to the conclusion that sadly Elusive Mind is a necessity in any form of pvp or wvw. I sure hope IH is moved to minor at some point in a future patch.

Staff ambush is only a thing on Mirage which is geared more towards conditions than power. As I said, Staff is a decent condi weapon but falls short when put into a power build.

Mirage is a bad choice in a power build because you have to give up a either Domination, Illusions, or Dueling which, when looking at what we actually get from Mirage, is an overall DPS loss. Domination has Empowered Illusions (+15% phantasm damage) and Fragility (+0.5% damage per stack of vuln -> +12.5% damage vs. target with 25 stacks of vuln). Illusions has Compounding Power (+3% direct damage and +50 Condition Damage/active illusion -> +9% direct damage and +150 Condition Damage w/3 active illusions), Phantasmal Haste (+20% phantasm attack speed), and Phantasmal Force (+1% phantasm damage [stacking up to 25 times] -> +25% phantasm damage). And Dueling has Phantasmal Fury (+20% crit chance for phantasms), Fencer's Finesse (sword attacks from you and your illusions give 15 ferocity stacking up to 10 times -> potentially +150 Ferocity + 20% recharge reduction for Blurred Frenzy), and Superiority Complex (+15% bonus critical hit damage or +25% bonus critical hit damage vs. targets under 50% health).

Compare that to power options from the Mirage traitline and you get the choice of Self-Deception (Deception skills - ie. Jaunt - generate a clone if any illusions active) or Renewing Oasis (gain Regen when you gain Mirage Cloak + reduce Bleed, Burn, Confusion, Torment duration by 20%), Desert Distortion (Shattered illusions generate Mirage Mirrors + Ambush on distortion) or Mirage Mantle (gain Protection when Mirage Cloak ends) or [maybe] Mirrored Axes (axe skills generate an extra axe + 20% reduced cooldown for axe skills), and Elusive Mind (Dodge = stun break).

For a power build all we really gain are defensive options. When comparing that to what we have to give up to take Mirage it's just not worth it. I mention power builds because the OP was commenting on the damage output of power staff vs. condi staff. Granted, by the same note I went somewhat off-topic in my original answer.

Ultimately, it feels like Staff deals less damage as a condition weapon when compared to power because the auto-attack applies fairly short duration single stacks of Bleeding and Burning when considering the cast speed of the auto-attack and can also apply vulnerability, which deals no damage in-and-of itself. This also applies to the staff clones meaning that any time vulnerability is applied we end up losing overall damage due to the debuffing condition being applied instead of a damaging condition. In addition to this, the Phantasmal Warlock is a power attack and Chaos Storm applies chill, poison, and weakness all of which either deal no damage or deal very little overall damage and are incredibly short in their application duration.

The staff ambush is better than the auto-attack in that the conditions it applies apply only damaging conditions but, when compared to the scepter, is still fairly underwhelming. The scepter ambush hits 5 times and applies one stack of confusion and torment for each hit while also dealing significantly more overall direct damage when compared to staff's ambush. The only thing the staff ambush has over the scepter ambush is that it hits up to 5 targets BUT, on the flip side yet again, it can also apply boons to friendly targets (and our illusions) thus reducing potential damage targets.

The bottom line is that the staff is far, far too random.

[Curunen.8729]

On the note of randomness - I kind of like it given that the backbone of Chaos traitline is some randomness and staff is the core weapon to that traitline.

The might on mirage ambush enables solid hybrid play. Yes I agree mirage isn't ideal for a pure power spec, but for any kind of hybrid spec it is solid and tbh better than chrono - you can build for perma vigour giving 150 boost to condi damage (ie 5 stacks of might for condi only), use staff ambush and dodge food to build even more might, then take runes/sigils, traits like BD or SS to build even more might. The vulnerability from aa and clones also plays into this.

Some tweaks such as increasing staff aa projectile velocity and reworking iWarlock to deliver some kind of hybrid attack would go a long way to making staff more useable. Sure the aa could use a small damage buff for core mesmer and chrono, but too much could become a problem - eg it's really easy to avoid scepter attacks and scepter clone attacks when fighting an enemy mesmer, but staff clones and aa can be more dangerous due to not being able to avoid everything - then throw some ambushes in there and you've got a really annoying opponent to fight, unless you pack a ton of reflects.

I like the aoe bouncing chaotic nature of staff aa, as well as the vortex of staff ambush - I just wish the vortex had a wider radius and tracked target. And regarding the boon or condi application with 5 target cap - the could just split that and always make it affect up to 5 enemies plus any allies that pass within its radius.

Chaos storm is an outstanding res denial/stomp denial and defensive tool - just needs a shorter cooldown like 30s and maybe guaranteed daze on the first tick for a little reliability.

Yes skills 3 and 4 suck in general and need some serious overhaul - though staff is carried by 2 and 5 together with now the IH ambush spam of mirage.

Just like Focus can currently be considered as more of a pve weapon, staff is tbh more of a pvp weapon and only really useable in pve on mirage with IH ambush spam. I don't agree with that design, but it's as it is right now.

[Llethander.3972]

@Curunen.8729 said:On the note of randomness - I kind of like it given that the backbone of Chaos traitline is some randomness and staff is the core weapon to that traitline.

The might on mirage ambush enables solid hybrid play. Yes I agree mirage isn't ideal for a pure power spec, but for any kind of hybrid spec it is solid and tbh better than chrono - you can build for perma vigour giving 150 boost to condi damage (ie 5 stacks of might for condi only), use staff ambush and dodge food to build even more might, then take runes/sigils, traits like BD or SS to build even more might. The vulnerability from aa and clones also plays into this.

Some tweaks such as increasing staff aa projectile velocity and reworking iWarlock to deliver some kind of hybrid attack would go a long way to making staff more useable. Sure the aa could use a small damage buff for core mesmer and chrono, but too much could become a problem - eg it's really easy to avoid scepter attacks and scepter clone attacks when fighting an enemy mesmer, but staff clones and aa can be more dangerous due to not being able to avoid everything - then throw some ambushes in there and you've got a really annoying opponent to fight, unless you pack a ton of reflects.

I like the aoe bouncing chaotic nature of staff aa, as well as the vortex of staff ambush - I just wish the vortex had a wider radius and tracked target. And regarding the boon or condi application with 5 target cap - the could just split that and always make it affect up to 5 enemies plus any allies that pass within its radius.

Chaos storm is an outstanding res denial/stomp denial and defensive tool - just needs a shorter cooldown like 30s and maybe guaranteed daze on the first tick for a little reliability.

Yes skills 3 and 4 suck in general and need some serious overhaul - though staff is carried by 2 and 5 together with now the IH ambush spam of mirage.

Just like Focus can currently be considered as more of a pve weapon, staff is tbh more of a pvp weapon and only really useable in pve on mirage with IH ambush spam. I don't agree with that design, but it's as it is right now.

I agree with pretty much everything you said. I was just explaining why the current implementation of the Staff is not ideal as a power weapon, that's all. :)

[Curunen.8729]

Oh yeah, I suppose I do agree on that front - staff enables other skills to have more power on Mirage while in hybrid stats - ie if you stack might then F1 and F2 will hit harder, as well as if you weapon swap into Axe or something for melee burst while might remains.

Though by itself staff is kitten in pure power, aside from iWarlock. It's only real benefit is 2 and 5 in a pvp setting - for z axis kiting, mobility and res/stomp support.

[Opopanax.1803]

@Llethander.3972 said:

@Curunen.8729 said:On the note of randomness - I kind of like it given that the backbone of Chaos traitline is some randomness and staff is the core weapon to that traitline.

The might on mirage ambush enables solid hybrid play. Yes I agree mirage isn't ideal for a pure power spec, but for any kind of hybrid spec it is solid and tbh better than chrono - you can build for perma vigour giving 150 boost to condi damage (ie 5 stacks of might for condi only), use staff ambush and dodge food to build even more might, then take runes/sigils, traits like BD or SS to build even more might. The vulnerability from aa and clones also plays into this.

Some tweaks such as increasing staff aa projectile velocity and reworking iWarlock to deliver some kind of hybrid attack would go a long way to making staff more useable. Sure the aa could use a small damage buff for core mesmer and chrono, but too much could become a problem - eg it's really easy to avoid scepter attacks and scepter clone attacks when fighting an enemy mesmer, but staff clones and aa can be more dangerous due to not being able to avoid everything - then throw some ambushes in there and you've got a really annoying opponent to fight, unless you pack a ton of reflects.

I like the aoe bouncing chaotic nature of staff aa, as well as the vortex of staff ambush - I just wish the vortex had a wider radius and tracked target. And regarding the boon or condi application with 5 target cap - the could just split that and always make it affect up to 5 enemies plus any allies that pass within its radius.

Chaos storm is an outstanding res denial/stomp denial and defensive tool - just needs a shorter cooldown like 30s and maybe guaranteed daze on the first tick for a little reliability.

Yes skills 3 and 4 suck in general and need some serious overhaul - though staff is carried by 2 and 5 together with now the IH ambush spam of mirage.

Just like Focus can currently be considered as more of a pve weapon, staff is tbh more of a pvp weapon and only really useable in pve on mirage with IH ambush spam. I don't agree with that design, but it's as it is right now.

I agree with pretty much everything you said. I was just explaining why the current implementation of the Staff is not ideal as a power weapon, that's all. :)

While I understand that staff doesn't feel powerful in its attacks, it seems like the power scaling of illusionary warlocks power damage would make up for that. Get 3 out and camp them is pretty powerful.

[Sifu.9745]

But is it really worth it, playing a hybrid Staff? I mean if you take Power instead of Toughness or Vitality, you loose a lot of defensive just to get slightly more dmg?I mean if you replace Viper, Wanderer or Sinister gear with Carrion, Rabid or Deadshot, your dmg will drop for maybe 5% - 7% for the price of huge defensive loss. While i understand that dmg is everything for raids and fractals, but for everything else (WvW, solo pve, PvP) passive defensive is still important, even on Mesmer imo.

[Llethander.3972]

@Opopanax.1803 said:While I understand that staff doesn't feel powerful in its attacks, it seems like the power scaling of illusionary warlocks power damage would make up for that. Get 3 out and camp them is pretty powerful.

The iWarlock is only particularly strong when an enemy is loaded with conditions. If you're fighting something that has maybe 3 conditions, or enemies that die quickly, then you're better off with off-hand Sword phantasms.

@Sifu.9745 said:But is it really worth it, playing a hybrid Staff? I mean if you take Power instead of Toughness or Vitality, you loose a lot of defensive just to get slightly more dmg?I mean if you replace Viper, Wanderer or Sinister gear with Carrion, Rabid or Deadshot, your dmg will drop for maybe 5% - 7% for the price of huge defensive loss. While i understand that dmg is everything for raids and fractals, but for everything else (WvW, solo pve, PvP) passive defensive is still important, even on Mesmer imo.

In general PvE defense isn't particularly useful on any class (not talking about Fractals or Raids). Most of a Mesmer's survivability in the open world is going to come from dodges, Blurred Frenzy, Distortion, and traited Signets (or Mirage Cloak for Mirages).

[Curunen.8729]

@Sifu.9745 said:But is it really worth it, playing a hybrid Staff? I mean if you take Power instead of Toughness or Vitality, you loose a lot of defensive just to get slightly more dmg?I mean if you replace Viper, Wanderer or Sinister gear with Carrion, Rabid or Deadshot, your dmg will drop for maybe 5% - 7% for the price of huge defensive loss. While i understand that dmg is everything for raids and fractals, but for everything else (WvW, solo pve, PvP) passive defensive is still important, even on Mesmer imo.

Benefit is not worrying so much about hardcounters - ie resistance. Going hybrid makes it more difficult for an opponent to counter you.

Also hybrid stats allow flexible use of weapons and traitlines as you can swap between things without having to worry about regearing your entire character - for me this makes life easier. Also less susceptible to nerfs because you can just change around traits/weapons and be ok.

Viper + Cele provides sufficient sustain in wvw. Sure it's not the level of trailblazer with >3k armour, but I have 2.4k armour and over 20k health which personally is more than enough for mesmer with all its active defence.

PvP is more of a problem due to limited amulet choice - viper is too glassy, sage/carrion has no crit and cele is too low in stats. Actually I am seeing some potential in cele amulet on mirage due to being able to maintain perma vigour and at least 5-10 stacks of might, though it could do with a stat boost.

[GWMO.4785]

hybrid. works pretty much in any build as an secondary weapon. The tools you get from the staff are certainly not the strongest. but its varied and nice to have in some way

[Akihito.4361]

@OP,Absolutely! I have been playing Staff Mesmer since beta. It is definitely a very strong power spec. However, this is mostly due to the fact that Winds of Chaos is completely rng. While my preferred Mesmer play style is Mirage/Staff/Condi, I wish they would make up their minds here and do some revamping. If it is going to be a source of conditions, those conditions need to be applied more reliably and Phantasmal Warlock needs to apply some conditions as well (never understood why it does not apply confusion). They attempted to address this by adding the Winds of Chaos cast to PW, but it is not worth losing a clone to summon PW for the effect.