Thief nerfs; how do we feel about that?

[UNOwen.7132]

@Megametzler.5729 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:(...)That wouldnt really help, thief usually jumps in with steal, so by the time you would have that cue, its already too late.

What? No, they don't. Steal probably is the one most powerful interrupt in the game. Save it if you can!

It is, but without it you cant burst out of stealth reliably, and it does add quite a fair amount of damage, so you still end up using it for that most of the time.

[Megametzler.5729]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Megametzler.5729 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:(...)That wouldnt really help, thief usually jumps in with steal, so by the time you would have that cue, its already too late.

What? No, they don't. Steal probably is the one most powerful interrupt in the game. Save it if you can!

It is, but without it you cant burst out of stealth reliably, and it does add quite a fair amount of damage, so you still end up using it for that most of the time.

Usually in +1 situations, simply shadowshot+backstab is fine. But I admit, it might be a good option in some situations.

[KrHome.1920]

@UNOwen.7132 said:The problem is a passive defense traitline isnt going to solve Thieves defense issues. Thieves issue is poor active defenses. You can make an Engineer build that has massive damage reduction and is more or less a walking wall, that aint gonna save it if it doesnt have good active defenses. It worked as a defensive traitline. That is why it was useless.Thief has the best active defenses (dodges, mobility, stealth) in the game. It is THE active defense class. And that's the reason why it has fight presence issues, because active defense and offense at the same time are limited - which is good! Dodges or other active evades, that can deal damage (various dodge modifying traits in the game or skills like unrelenting assault) are stupid design, because they can't be punished with counter-damage application.

Damage reduction is a passive defense. That's the main concept of armor as a passive defense. You can tank more damage (passive) while attacking (active). Thief is either attacking (active) or evading, disengaging, stealthing (active).

[UNOwen.7132]

@Megametzler.5729 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Megametzler.5729 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:(...)That wouldnt really help, thief usually jumps in with steal, so by the time you would have that cue, its already too late.

What? No, they don't. Steal probably is the one most powerful interrupt in the game. Save it if you can!

It is, but without it you cant burst out of stealth reliably, and it does add quite a fair amount of damage, so you still end up using it for that most of the time.

Usually in +1 situations, simply shadowshot+backstab is fine. But I admit, it might be a good option in some situations.

Shadowshot + backstab results in the opponent dodging/blocking your backstab, and you losing all your burst if theyre any good. Its too slow and predictable.

[UNOwen.7132]

@KrHome.1920 said:

@"UNOwen.7132" said:The problem is a passive defense traitline isnt going to solve Thieves defense issues. Thieves issue is poor

active

defenses. You can make an Engineer build that has massive damage reduction and is more or less a walking wall, that aint gonna save it if it doesnt have good active defenses. It worked as a defensive traitline.

That

is why it was useless.Thief has the best active defenses (dodges, mobility, stealth) in the game. It is THE active defense class. And that's the reason why it has fight presence issues, because active defense and offense at the same time are limited - which is good! Dodges or other active evades, that can deal damage (various dodge modifying traits in the game or skills like unrelenting assault) are stupid design, because they can't be punished with counter-damage application.

No it doesnt. Stealth and mobility are not active defenses, and as for dodges, here is the funny thing: Thieves dodges are about average at best. D/P Thief has only the baseline dodges everyone has, and 1-2 utility skills with long cooldowns that provide dodges. S/D has more, but is unplayable for other reasons. Compare that to Warrior, to Elementalist, to Revenant, to Ranger, to Engineer, to even Mesmer. And thats just dodges. The other classes also get blocks, and invuln, and pseudo-invuln, which thief doesnt get. The only class that has worse active defenses than thief is Necro. And unless Necro is playing a draintank style (which thief also obviously has no access to), then yeah, Necro cant survive without a support. No, thief is not "THE" active defense class (thats Warrior), nor is that the reason thief is bad at fighting (quite the opposite, the fact that thieves active defenses suck is the reason thief is bad at fighting).

Now what you might be confused by is that thief doesnt usually die. But thats not because thieves active defenses are good. Its because thief is good at running away from a fight, and never stays in a fight since if thief does stay in a fight, he dies. But running away is not an active defense. Its not a defense at all. Its avoiding the fight alltogether.

Damage reduction is a passive defense. That's the main concept of armor as a passive defense. You can tank more damage (passive) while attacking (active). Thief is either attacking (active) or evading, disengaging, stealthing (active).

No, thief goes in, bursts, then runs away. It doesnt have good defense, so running away is all it can do. Give thief better passive defenses, and that doesnt change. It cant do draintank like Necro does, and without that, more passive defense isnt going to save you.

[Megametzler.5729]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Megametzler.5729 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Megametzler.5729 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:(...)That wouldnt really help, thief usually jumps in with steal, so by the time you would have that cue, its already too late.

What? No, they don't. Steal probably is the one most powerful interrupt in the game. Save it if you can!

It is, but without it you cant burst out of stealth reliably, and it does add quite a fair amount of damage, so you still end up using it for that most of the time.

Usually in +1 situations, simply shadowshot+backstab is fine. But I admit, it might be a good option in some situations.

Shadowshot + backstab results in the opponent dodging/blocking your backstab, and you losing all your burst if theyre any good. Its too slow and predictable.

Barely in team fights. In duels, yes, but not in +1s.

[Swagg.9236]

Thief is not a real class; it's a showcase for a model-hiding mechanic that somebody showed off to some developers in 2010.

[Bear.9568]

Thief lost the last EU MAT, NA loses to EU every TOC so no one cares about NA MAT. Thief is a trash class now as bunker classes can easily 2v3 and don't have to leave points thus cancelling thief rotation/decap potential. Condi rev and nade holo are the hotness with warrior brining battle standard. Thief can't do anything in 1v1 and can barely get a down in a +1 against good players.

TL;DR thief got deleted from the game.

[Leonidrex.5649]

holly shit, imagine if mesmers said mesmer was deleted from the game after not winning MAT fucking once. god daaamn, you would be seeing mat every month for a year ;p

[UNOwen.7132]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:holly kitten, imagine if mesmers said mesmer was deleted from the game after not winning MAT kitten once. god daaamn, you would be seeing mat every month for a year ;p

To be fair, thief is a class that, if it is playable, its a mandatory 1 of in any team. Still, a single MAT is not enough of a data point.

[JesusDrinksLatte.5091]

Have been completely checked out of any Thief changes ever since they put a stupid ICD on all stealth attacks, a change I still don't get why it has never been addressed despite huge outcry at the time, nerfing D/D disproportionately when it was already bad. Yes, that was 4 years ago, and yes I'm still holding a grudge. They've never known what to do with the class, and they likely never will. Mesmer has been better to play for years until they decided they were gonna remove the baseline feature of having an endurance bar (lol) from Mirage, which was probably even worse design wise than the stealth attack ICD. Band-aid fixes for problems that are easily addressed elsewhere is what we get, anyone who's been here long enough can remember the kinds of 'fixes' they've tried.