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Please Areanet, Fix the Mesmer !

Guilan.5760

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Moradorin.6217

Moradorin.6217

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@Ronald McDonald.8165 said:

@Salt Mode.3780 said:the only way for a stationary dodge work the same way as a normal dodge to evade aoe or multiple aoe is to give it superspeed instead of just a normal speed boon but honestly tht would be too strong so i dont mind it being hindered by cripple or chill

Right its ok to have a trade off like getting to attack during the dodges evade frame in exchange for being more vulnerable to certain types of attacks like ground AoE and any large radius cleaves. But ohh wait that WAS the trade off before Anet decided to ignore it and say it didnt have one, and removed a dodge, etc, etc. Meanwhile many in the community are willing to suggest it was Ok for people who decided to run condi gear and not ok for people who run power gear which ultumatly muted the classes ability to object and actually helped kill the class. Good job all. Thanks everyone! LOL

How is that a trade off when you are able to jaunt, port, or sword leap away from those things?
Mirage dodge is clearly a problem that needs to be addressed if Mirage is to have two dodges.

@Salt Mode.3780 said:the only way for a stationary dodge work the same way as a normal dodge to evade aoe or multiple aoe is to give it superspeed instead of just a normal speed boon but honestly tht would be too strong so i dont mind it being hindered by cripple or chill

Right its ok to have a trade off like getting to attack during the dodges evade frame in exchange for being more vulnerable to certain types of attacks like ground AoE and any large radius cleaves. But ohh wait that WAS the trade off before Anet decided to ignore it and say it didnt have one, and removed a dodge, etc, etc. Meanwhile many in the community are willing to suggest it was Ok for people who decided to run condi gear and not ok for people who run power gear which ultumatly muted the classes ability to object and actually helped kill the class. Good job all. Thanks everyone! LOL

How is that a trade off when you are able to jaunt, port, or sword leap away from those things? Mirage dodge is clearly a problem that needs to be addressed if Mirage is to have two dodges.

So your apparent counter argument is that Mirage should only have 1 dodge because it has utility skills that can add mobility to a build the same way that pretty much every class and elite spec has including core Mes and chrono along with thief, dd, de, guard, fb, dh, necro, reaper, scourge, rev, herald, renegade, ranger, druid, soulbeast, on and on. your point seems invalid.

I literally never said any of those things, but acting like Mirage can't get out of AOEs is kind of silly. Mirage is the weakest class right now, but I don't agree though that adding the 2nd dodge back is what is good and healthy for the game. [...]

You literally said that. =)

I literally didn't =)

I will try to elaborate more so you can understand.

After I said that "getting to attack during the dodges evade frame in exchange for being more vulnerable to certain types of attacks like ground AoE and any large radius cleave" was always a valid trade off. In other words, After I suggest, the lack or horizontal mobility from using Mirage Cloak (MC) was always a valid trade-off which you (Ronald) responded saying "
How is that a trade off
when you are able to
jaunt, port, or sword leap
away from those things?" So in effect your are asserting a counter argument that disagrees and asserts that since Mirage has mobility utilities like jaunt, port, sword leap ambush (ironic) it doesn't need the second dodge. Additionally, your statement implies that Mirage has as much ability to get out of AoE as other classes due to utility skills like jaunt, portal, etc. However, as I pointed out every class has similar mobility skills on weapons and as utility skills that can also be used in the same way, the difference is those other classes ALL get 2+ dodges that DO provide them horizontal movement when they gain evade frame, Mirage doesn't. Therefore, as I said before, you are apparently asserting that Mirage doesnt need 2 dodges because it has utility and weapon skills that add mobility. I countered by pointing out that every class has that in addition to the 2+ normal dodges which would seem to clearly make one dodge an invalid trade off in that its like a double penalty unlike any other classes trade off. Also dodge as others keep pointing out is a core ability that arguably shouldn't have ever been removed because its a core ability. Also while on the topic I will restate that that MC has a trade-off build in as much as any other elite spec even with 2 dodges. Not sure why you refuse to admit the fact, but its ok.> @Ronald McDonald.8165 said:

No, that isn't what I am implying. What I am trying to say is that on the list of reasons Mirage could use another dodge, getting out of AOEs was literally never on my list. The thought "if only I had a second dodge to get out of this AOE" has either never happened or happened so infrequently that I don't remember ever having it.

Thats funny I guess you have not played much Mirage in the last year or two. That explains your perspective on its balance, however.

I have played Condi Mirage and Condi Chrono near exclusively for the past 8 months or so. I never have played the easy classes in MMOs and never will. I have always enjoyed being the underdog and outplaying my opponents. I don't want or expect to have easy handed to me on a silver platter, but I guess that explains the difference on our perspectives for balance.

As I said earlier "I have to agree with both Helseth and Shorts (which I think is pretty easy to say are the two best Mesmer players) that adding the 2nd dodge to Mirage will break the class and is toxic for the game. Unhealthy mechanics are not good for the game. Like most everyone else, I don't enjoy playing against unhealthy mechanics, so I don't find the solution to be to add more. I play Mesmer 99% of the time. Just because other classes have unhealthy mechanics, doesn't mean I want one too."

So you see, I am very far from alone on my sentiments regarding Mirage balance. Like Helseth, I think Mirage's resustain is the bigger issue for Mirage than a second dodge. Mirage has one of the worst heals in the game, it's on a long cooldown, and the only real resustain Mirage and Mesmer really has is to exit combat. The only other class that operates like that is thief, but thief can disengage (and reengage) MUCH easier than Mesmer. That is the reason Mesmer is essentially useless on maps like Skyhammer, because disengage is next to impossible.

You seem to primarily be looking at things from a rPvP perspective which is fine. However, you arent going to run into the same issues with AoE and cleaves pvp vs wvw, still the issue I pointed out has yet to actually be adressed or refuted by you. All you have done now is quote two well known players making general comments that dont address the specifics that I am talking about that you seem to want to claim are wrong without actually bringing any relevent counter argument. You simply claim its never been an issue for you so it must not be a real thing. Which is a very poor argument especially considering how common it is for mesmers to point to the lack of mobility from MC and how it creates an obvious and unescapable downside when caught in AoE and cleave. The generalized and very old quotes are pretty pointless to me as a counter argument since it is a broad generalization that neither supports or refutes your argument or mine.

So we are talking about WvW and not PvP? That is fine. Like I said I have been playing Chronomancer and Mirage almost exclusively. That includes in both a WvW and PvP environment. You dismiss utilities to escape AOEs as being valid. I can prove that wrong very easily. Play Chronomancer in WvW. Find out how much more punishing it is to play as Chronomancer in WvW when you don't have all those utilities that Mirage has to escape cleave and AOE. A second dodge does not come close to removing you from the situations nearly as well as what you have with Mirage. As Chronomancer if you are stuck in cleave and AOE you have one single option and that is to teleport out, if that is on CD you have 0 options. As a Mirage you have many actual options. You can jaunt, you can MC, you can axe 2 for mobility, you can port with axe 3 to avoid it, you can sword ambush, you can distort. You have soooooooo much more leeway as Mirage to find yourself in those kind of situations and survive because of it's kit. Play Chronomancer and see just how wrong you are in assuming that having 2 regular dodges makes up for all of those things.

No thats just it, you are going in circles and and ignoreing that the actual argument I and others made. Which is simply that since EVERY class has mobility utilities those not a "Mesmer thing". However, Mirage cloak is. Additionally, the point is that
Mirage cloak DOESNT give the STANDARD MOBILITY that NORMAL DODGE HAS MIRAGE CLOAK HAS NO MOBILITY PROVIDED. MEANING, YOU STAY IN PLACE.
WHICH IS WHY, I SAID, MC COMES WITH LESS MOBILITY, WHICH MAKES MIRAGE MORE VULNERABLE TO AoE AND CLEAVE.
ITS NOT OPINION OR VIEW ITS FACT.
YOU ARE TRYING TO GO AROUND IT AND CLAIM ITS PLAY STYLE.
YOU ARE WRONG FACTUALLY
. YOUR OPINION DOESNT COME INTO IT.
YOUR PLAY STYLE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IT.

Rather than actually talk about the facts of the topic you keep trying to claim you are such an amazing Mesmer that you apparently dominate everyone and never die. Can we see some video? Cause I simply think your 100% full of it. You are worked hard to avoid the actual topic with generalizations, appeal to authority and a number of other fallacies.

Alright, time to take you to school. Let's dissect this nonsense bit by bit:"Rather than actually talk about the facts of the topic you keep trying to claim you are such an amazing Mesmer that you apparently dominate everyone and never die." -never once made that statement. Not a single time did I ever claim anything about my own skills as a Mesmer. All I have said is that for around the past year my time has been spent almost exclusively playing Mirage and Chronomancer. What you just did is a logical fall- oh wait, it's just called a lie.

"You are worked hard to avoid the actual topic with generalizations, appeal to authority and a number of other fallacies."This will be a fun one to pick apart. Let's start with a definition:Generalization: a broad statement or an idea that is applied to a group of people or things.I will type in caps because apparently you find that easier to read. WHAT I DID IS CALLED SPECIFICATION. I USED SPECIFIC EXAMPLES, LITERALLY LISTING THEM OUT "You can jaunt, you can MC, you can axe 2 for mobility, you can port with axe 3 to avoid it, you can sword ambush, you can distort." <-----THESE ARE SPECIFIC EXAMPLES. HENCE, NOT GENERALIZING.

In response to your appeal to authority fallacy that you are claiming. Every single competitive game is majority balanced around the top. What that means is that balance decisions are based off of how the best players are performing. The reasoning behind this is that best players have the best understanding of the game and how it works. That is why they are the best players. Just the other day someone in the mists map chat was complaining that Revenant is one of the weakest classes in the game right now in PvP, yet the top teams currently are running 2+ Revenants. They are running 2+ Revenants because they are (unlike what random guy in map chat states) one of the best classes in the game. They are winning with 2+ Revenants because they understand that. Balance choices aren't aimed for the guy who doesn't properly know how to play Revenant. Which is why this statement: "
YOUR PLAY STYLE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IT.
" is utter nonsense. There is a right way to play something and there is a wrong way to play something. As the point is clearly made by the player complaining that Revenant is weak, that is his playstyle is WRONG. It is also not an appeal to authority because I am believing what they are saying because of their reasoning behind their thoughts. Not solely because of their standings.

Let's continue our discussion on fallacies. "
Mirage cloak DOESNT give the STANDARD MOBILITY that NORMAL DODGE HAS MIRAGE CLOAK HAS NO MOBILITY PROVIDED. MEANING, YOU STAY IN PLACE.
WHICH IS WHY, I SAID, MC COMES WITH LESS MOBILITY, WHICH MAKES MIRAGE MORE VULNERABLE TO AoE AND CLEAVE.
ITS NOT OPINION OR VIEW ITS FACT.
"

This statement is what is called a FALSE EQUIVALENCY. You can make the statement MC has less mobility and therefore try to argue that MC is more vulnerable to AOE and cleave. But MC being more vulnerable to AOE and cleave DOES NOT EQUAL Mirage is more vulnerable to AOE and cleave. You can't pretend that the entirety of the Mirage kit just disappears because they have MC. That is why I use Chronomancer as a counter example. It is about as an apples to apples comparison as you can make. Showing that utility/weapon skills/etc. is just as important if not more important in many situations than having a normal dodge. And why playstyle does matter, if you are unable to properly respond to an AOE with the tools you have available that can do such, that is not the games fault that is your own.

Now all it takes is a single counter point to prove something wrong. So let's do that with this statement "
Mirage cloak DOESNT give the STANDARD MOBILITY that NORMAL DODGE HAS MIRAGE CLOAK HAS NO MOBILITY PROVIDED. MEANING, YOU STAY IN PLACE.
WHICH IS WHY, I SAID, MC COMES WITH LESS MOBILITY, WHICH MAKES MIRAGE MORE VULNERABLE TO AoE AND CLEAVE.
ITS NOT OPINION OR VIEW ITS FACT.
"

So let us take a situation where you are CC'd - knocked down, stunned, etc in AOE/cleave. If you only have regular dodges at your disposal and nothing else you are taking a massive amount of damage as you have no way to avoid it. If you only have MC at your disposal you can avoid a huge chunk of that damage by using MC. In this instance Mirage is LESS VULNERABLE TO AOE AND CLEAVE BECAUSE OF MC. This is actually one of the reasons people find MC to be such a toxic addition to the game because it allows Mirage to effectively not be punished for the mistake they made that put them in that situation.

Now what I just did there is called a counter point. It proves what you call a "FACT" to be wrong.

To me it seems like you watched a youtube video on logical fallacies and have some minor baseline understanding of them. I recommend you dive deeper and watch more youtube videos or read more about them so you can use those words properly.

Now I am not here arguing that Mirage isn't weak. It most definitely is one of the weakest classes in the game. At the same time I don't think that it is so weak that its akin to this tiny fly that that dies just because someone breathed in it's general direction. And I don't find it's ability to deal with cleave or AOE is a core problem that needs discussion or balancing around. In all honesty, we all know nothing major is going to happen to Mirage or any class for that matter. Every other class seems to slowly be getting nerfed which is an indirect buff to Mesmer. And nothing major is going to happen as the next expansion is coming soon and any sort of balance that we have right now is going to go right out the window with the new e-specs. Would I like some buffs to Mirage, hell yeah. But I also want them to be healthy for the game and focused on where it's needed.

From what bits I did read you are just off the rails in so many ways that I dont feel I need to respond. My previous statements stand. You have failed to counter my argument yet again. I feel no need even read all of this since its obvious you are just still unwilling to directly address the simple mechanical facts and admit that i and others are correct or even that the point is valid. Pretty sad. =(

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Moradorin.6217

Moradorin.6217

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All classes have weapon and utility skills that add mobility/escape potential, gap close potential, etc. All classes have the same access to foods that add endurance regen. Most other classes got more dodges per minute than Mirage BEFORE 1 dodge nerf. Normal dodge gives mobility which by default will move the player away from cleaves and AoE, while Mirage Cloak DOES NOT. Therefore, the simple fact is that Mirage's Dodge (MC) is more vulnerable to AoE and Cleave. Its a mechanical fact that has nothing to do with anything other than comparing dodge ro MC.

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Ronald McDonald.8165

Ronald McDonald.8165

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@Moradorin.6217 said:

@Salt Mode.3780 said:the only way for a stationary dodge work the same way as a normal dodge to evade aoe or multiple aoe is to give it superspeed instead of just a normal speed boon but honestly tht would be too strong so i dont mind it being hindered by cripple or chill

Right its ok to have a trade off like getting to attack during the dodges evade frame in exchange for being more vulnerable to certain types of attacks like ground AoE and any large radius cleaves. But ohh wait that WAS the trade off before Anet decided to ignore it and say it didnt have one, and removed a dodge, etc, etc. Meanwhile many in the community are willing to suggest it was Ok for people who decided to run condi gear and not ok for people who run power gear which ultumatly muted the classes ability to object and actually helped kill the class. Good job all. Thanks everyone! LOL

How is that a trade off when you are able to jaunt, port, or sword leap away from those things?
Mirage dodge is clearly a problem that needs to be addressed if Mirage is to have two dodges.

@Salt Mode.3780 said:the only way for a stationary dodge work the same way as a normal dodge to evade aoe or multiple aoe is to give it superspeed instead of just a normal speed boon but honestly tht would be too strong so i dont mind it being hindered by cripple or chill

Right its ok to have a trade off like getting to attack during the dodges evade frame in exchange for being more vulnerable to certain types of attacks like ground AoE and any large radius cleaves. But ohh wait that WAS the trade off before Anet decided to ignore it and say it didnt have one, and removed a dodge, etc, etc. Meanwhile many in the community are willing to suggest it was Ok for people who decided to run condi gear and not ok for people who run power gear which ultumatly muted the classes ability to object and actually helped kill the class. Good job all. Thanks everyone! LOL

How is that a trade off when you are able to jaunt, port, or sword leap away from those things? Mirage dodge is clearly a problem that needs to be addressed if Mirage is to have two dodges.

So your apparent counter argument is that Mirage should only have 1 dodge because it has utility skills that can add mobility to a build the same way that pretty much every class and elite spec has including core Mes and chrono along with thief, dd, de, guard, fb, dh, necro, reaper, scourge, rev, herald, renegade, ranger, druid, soulbeast, on and on. your point seems invalid.

I literally never said any of those things, but acting like Mirage can't get out of AOEs is kind of silly. Mirage is the weakest class right now, but I don't agree though that adding the 2nd dodge back is what is good and healthy for the game. [...]

You literally said that. =)

I literally didn't =)

I will try to elaborate more so you can understand.

After I said that "getting to attack during the dodges evade frame in exchange for being more vulnerable to certain types of attacks like ground AoE and any large radius cleave" was always a valid trade off. In other words, After I suggest, the lack or horizontal mobility from using Mirage Cloak (MC) was always a valid trade-off which you (Ronald) responded saying "
How is that a trade off
when you are able to
jaunt, port, or sword leap
away from those things?" So in effect your are asserting a counter argument that disagrees and asserts that since Mirage has mobility utilities like jaunt, port, sword leap ambush (ironic) it doesn't need the second dodge. Additionally, your statement implies that Mirage has as much ability to get out of AoE as other classes due to utility skills like jaunt, portal, etc. However, as I pointed out every class has similar mobility skills on weapons and as utility skills that can also be used in the same way, the difference is those other classes ALL get 2+ dodges that DO provide them horizontal movement when they gain evade frame, Mirage doesn't. Therefore, as I said before, you are apparently asserting that Mirage doesnt need 2 dodges because it has utility and weapon skills that add mobility. I countered by pointing out that every class has that in addition to the 2+ normal dodges which would seem to clearly make one dodge an invalid trade off in that its like a double penalty unlike any other classes trade off. Also dodge as others keep pointing out is a core ability that arguably shouldn't have ever been removed because its a core ability. Also while on the topic I will restate that that MC has a trade-off build in as much as any other elite spec even with 2 dodges. Not sure why you refuse to admit the fact, but its ok.> @Ronald McDonald.8165 said:

No, that isn't what I am implying. What I am trying to say is that on the list of reasons Mirage could use another dodge, getting out of AOEs was literally never on my list. The thought "if only I had a second dodge to get out of this AOE" has either never happened or happened so infrequently that I don't remember ever having it.

Thats funny I guess you have not played much Mirage in the last year or two. That explains your perspective on its balance, however.

I have played Condi Mirage and Condi Chrono near exclusively for the past 8 months or so. I never have played the easy classes in MMOs and never will. I have always enjoyed being the underdog and outplaying my opponents. I don't want or expect to have easy handed to me on a silver platter, but I guess that explains the difference on our perspectives for balance.

As I said earlier "I have to agree with both Helseth and Shorts (which I think is pretty easy to say are the two best Mesmer players) that adding the 2nd dodge to Mirage will break the class and is toxic for the game. Unhealthy mechanics are not good for the game. Like most everyone else, I don't enjoy playing against unhealthy mechanics, so I don't find the solution to be to add more. I play Mesmer 99% of the time. Just because other classes have unhealthy mechanics, doesn't mean I want one too."

So you see, I am very far from alone on my sentiments regarding Mirage balance. Like Helseth, I think Mirage's resustain is the bigger issue for Mirage than a second dodge. Mirage has one of the worst heals in the game, it's on a long cooldown, and the only real resustain Mirage and Mesmer really has is to exit combat. The only other class that operates like that is thief, but thief can disengage (and reengage) MUCH easier than Mesmer. That is the reason Mesmer is essentially useless on maps like Skyhammer, because disengage is next to impossible.

You seem to primarily be looking at things from a rPvP perspective which is fine. However, you arent going to run into the same issues with AoE and cleaves pvp vs wvw, still the issue I pointed out has yet to actually be adressed or refuted by you. All you have done now is quote two well known players making general comments that dont address the specifics that I am talking about that you seem to want to claim are wrong without actually bringing any relevent counter argument. You simply claim its never been an issue for you so it must not be a real thing. Which is a very poor argument especially considering how common it is for mesmers to point to the lack of mobility from MC and how it creates an obvious and unescapable downside when caught in AoE and cleave. The generalized and very old quotes are pretty pointless to me as a counter argument since it is a broad generalization that neither supports or refutes your argument or mine.

So we are talking about WvW and not PvP? That is fine. Like I said I have been playing Chronomancer and Mirage almost exclusively. That includes in both a WvW and PvP environment. You dismiss utilities to escape AOEs as being valid. I can prove that wrong very easily. Play Chronomancer in WvW. Find out how much more punishing it is to play as Chronomancer in WvW when you don't have all those utilities that Mirage has to escape cleave and AOE. A second dodge does not come close to removing you from the situations nearly as well as what you have with Mirage. As Chronomancer if you are stuck in cleave and AOE you have one single option and that is to teleport out, if that is on CD you have 0 options. As a Mirage you have many actual options. You can jaunt, you can MC, you can axe 2 for mobility, you can port with axe 3 to avoid it, you can sword ambush, you can distort. You have soooooooo much more leeway as Mirage to find yourself in those kind of situations and survive because of it's kit. Play Chronomancer and see just how wrong you are in assuming that having 2 regular dodges makes up for all of those things.

No thats just it, you are going in circles and and ignoreing that the actual argument I and others made. Which is simply that since EVERY class has mobility utilities those not a "Mesmer thing". However, Mirage cloak is. Additionally, the point is that
Mirage cloak DOESNT give the STANDARD MOBILITY that NORMAL DODGE HAS MIRAGE CLOAK HAS NO MOBILITY PROVIDED. MEANING, YOU STAY IN PLACE.
WHICH IS WHY, I SAID, MC COMES WITH LESS MOBILITY, WHICH MAKES MIRAGE MORE VULNERABLE TO AoE AND CLEAVE.
ITS NOT OPINION OR VIEW ITS FACT.
YOU ARE TRYING TO GO AROUND IT AND CLAIM ITS PLAY STYLE.
YOU ARE WRONG FACTUALLY
. YOUR OPINION DOESNT COME INTO IT.
YOUR PLAY STYLE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IT.

Rather than actually talk about the facts of the topic you keep trying to claim you are such an amazing Mesmer that you apparently dominate everyone and never die. Can we see some video? Cause I simply think your 100% full of it. You are worked hard to avoid the actual topic with generalizations, appeal to authority and a number of other fallacies.

Alright, time to take you to school. Let's dissect this nonsense bit by bit:"Rather than actually talk about the facts of the topic you keep trying to claim you are such an amazing Mesmer that you apparently dominate everyone and never die." -never once made that statement. Not a single time did I ever claim anything about my own skills as a Mesmer. All I have said is that for around the past year my time has been spent almost exclusively playing Mirage and Chronomancer. What you just did is a logical fall- oh wait, it's just called a lie.

"You are worked hard to avoid the actual topic with generalizations, appeal to authority and a number of other fallacies."This will be a fun one to pick apart. Let's start with a definition:Generalization: a broad statement or an idea that is applied to a group of people or things.I will type in caps because apparently you find that easier to read. WHAT I DID IS CALLED SPECIFICATION. I USED SPECIFIC EXAMPLES, LITERALLY LISTING THEM OUT "You can jaunt, you can MC, you can axe 2 for mobility, you can port with axe 3 to avoid it, you can sword ambush, you can distort." <-----THESE ARE SPECIFIC EXAMPLES. HENCE, NOT GENERALIZING.

In response to your appeal to authority fallacy that you are claiming. Every single competitive game is majority balanced around the top. What that means is that balance decisions are based off of how the best players are performing. The reasoning behind this is that best players have the best understanding of the game and how it works. That is why they are the best players. Just the other day someone in the mists map chat was complaining that Revenant is one of the weakest classes in the game right now in PvP, yet the top teams currently are running 2+ Revenants. They are running 2+ Revenants because they are (unlike what random guy in map chat states) one of the best classes in the game. They are winning with 2+ Revenants because they understand that. Balance choices aren't aimed for the guy who doesn't properly know how to play Revenant. Which is why this statement: "
YOUR PLAY STYLE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IT.
" is utter nonsense. There is a right way to play something and there is a wrong way to play something. As the point is clearly made by the player complaining that Revenant is weak, that is his playstyle is WRONG. It is also not an appeal to authority because I am believing what they are saying because of their reasoning behind their thoughts. Not solely because of their standings.

Let's continue our discussion on fallacies. "
Mirage cloak DOESNT give the STANDARD MOBILITY that NORMAL DODGE HAS MIRAGE CLOAK HAS NO MOBILITY PROVIDED. MEANING, YOU STAY IN PLACE.
WHICH IS WHY, I SAID, MC COMES WITH LESS MOBILITY, WHICH MAKES MIRAGE MORE VULNERABLE TO AoE AND CLEAVE.
ITS NOT OPINION OR VIEW ITS FACT.
"

This statement is what is called a FALSE EQUIVALENCY. You can make the statement MC has less mobility and therefore try to argue that MC is more vulnerable to AOE and cleave. But MC being more vulnerable to AOE and cleave DOES NOT EQUAL Mirage is more vulnerable to AOE and cleave. You can't pretend that the entirety of the Mirage kit just disappears because they have MC. That is why I use Chronomancer as a counter example. It is about as an apples to apples comparison as you can make. Showing that utility/weapon skills/etc. is just as important if not more important in many situations than having a normal dodge. And why playstyle does matter, if you are unable to properly respond to an AOE with the tools you have available that can do such, that is not the games fault that is your own.

Now all it takes is a single counter point to prove something wrong. So let's do that with this statement "
Mirage cloak DOESNT give the STANDARD MOBILITY that NORMAL DODGE HAS MIRAGE CLOAK HAS NO MOBILITY PROVIDED. MEANING, YOU STAY IN PLACE.
WHICH IS WHY, I SAID, MC COMES WITH LESS MOBILITY, WHICH MAKES MIRAGE MORE VULNERABLE TO AoE AND CLEAVE.
ITS NOT OPINION OR VIEW ITS FACT.
"

So let us take a situation where you are CC'd - knocked down, stunned, etc in AOE/cleave. If you only have regular dodges at your disposal and nothing else you are taking a massive amount of damage as you have no way to avoid it. If you only have MC at your disposal you can avoid a huge chunk of that damage by using MC. In this instance Mirage is LESS VULNERABLE TO AOE AND CLEAVE BECAUSE OF MC. This is actually one of the reasons people find MC to be such a toxic addition to the game because it allows Mirage to effectively not be punished for the mistake they made that put them in that situation.

Now what I just did there is called a counter point. It proves what you call a "FACT" to be wrong.

To me it seems like you watched a youtube video on logical fallacies and have some minor baseline understanding of them. I recommend you dive deeper and watch more youtube videos or read more about them so you can use those words properly.

Now I am not here arguing that Mirage isn't weak. It most definitely is one of the weakest classes in the game. At the same time I don't think that it is so weak that its akin to this tiny fly that that dies just because someone breathed in it's general direction. And I don't find it's ability to deal with cleave or AOE is a core problem that needs discussion or balancing around. In all honesty, we all know nothing major is going to happen to Mirage or any class for that matter. Every other class seems to slowly be getting nerfed which is an indirect buff to Mesmer. And nothing major is going to happen as the next expansion is coming soon and any sort of balance that we have right now is going to go right out the window with the new e-specs. Would I like some buffs to Mirage, hell yeah. But I also want them to be healthy for the game and focused on where it's needed.

From what bits I did read you are just off the rails in so many ways that I dont feel I need to respond. My previous statements stand. You have failed to counter my argument yet again. I feel no need even read all of this since its obvious you are just still unwilling to directly address the simple mechanical facts and admit that i and others are correct or even that the point is valid. Pretty sad. =(

It was cool, it went into how you don't know what logical fallacies are and reiterated my previous points in much more detail.

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Xyrony Shush.8457

Xyrony Shush.8457

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@Moradorin.6217 said:All classes have weapon and utility skills that add mobility/escape potential, gap close potential, etc. (...)Normal dodge gives mobility which by default will move the player away from cleaves and AoE, while Mirage Cloak DOES NOT. Therefore, the simple fact is that Mirage's Dodge (MC) is more vulnerable to AoE and Cleave. Its a mechanical fact that has nothing to do with anything other than comparing dodge ro MC.

To prevent all of us from reading another two sides of an unnecessary dispute:Seems like all your dispute only happens because of a little accident from Moradorin to write mirage instead mirage cloak in one of her sentences.Now you two can be friends again.

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Moradorin.6217

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@Ronald McDonald.8165 said:

@Salt Mode.3780 said:the only way for a stationary dodge work the same way as a normal dodge to evade aoe or multiple aoe is to give it superspeed instead of just a normal speed boon but honestly tht would be too strong so i dont mind it being hindered by cripple or chill

Right its ok to have a trade off like getting to attack during the dodges evade frame in exchange for being more vulnerable to certain types of attacks like ground AoE and any large radius cleaves. But ohh wait that WAS the trade off before Anet decided to ignore it and say it didnt have one, and removed a dodge, etc, etc. Meanwhile many in the community are willing to suggest it was Ok for people who decided to run condi gear and not ok for people who run power gear which ultumatly muted the classes ability to object and actually helped kill the class. Good job all. Thanks everyone! LOL

How is that a trade off when you are able to jaunt, port, or sword leap away from those things?
Mirage dodge is clearly a problem that needs to be addressed if Mirage is to have two dodges.

@Salt Mode.3780 said:the only way for a stationary dodge work the same way as a normal dodge to evade aoe or multiple aoe is to give it superspeed instead of just a normal speed boon but honestly tht would be too strong so i dont mind it being hindered by cripple or chill

Right its ok to have a trade off like getting to attack during the dodges evade frame in exchange for being more vulnerable to certain types of attacks like ground AoE and any large radius cleaves. But ohh wait that WAS the trade off before Anet decided to ignore it and say it didnt have one, and removed a dodge, etc, etc. Meanwhile many in the community are willing to suggest it was Ok for people who decided to run condi gear and not ok for people who run power gear which ultumatly muted the classes ability to object and actually helped kill the class. Good job all. Thanks everyone! LOL

How is that a trade off when you are able to jaunt, port, or sword leap away from those things? Mirage dodge is clearly a problem that needs to be addressed if Mirage is to have two dodges.

So your apparent counter argument is that Mirage should only have 1 dodge because it has utility skills that can add mobility to a build the same way that pretty much every class and elite spec has including core Mes and chrono along with thief, dd, de, guard, fb, dh, necro, reaper, scourge, rev, herald, renegade, ranger, druid, soulbeast, on and on. your point seems invalid.

I literally never said any of those things, but acting like Mirage can't get out of AOEs is kind of silly. Mirage is the weakest class right now, but I don't agree though that adding the 2nd dodge back is what is good and healthy for the game. [...]

You literally said that. =)

I literally didn't =)

I will try to elaborate more so you can understand.

After I said that "getting to attack during the dodges evade frame in exchange for being more vulnerable to certain types of attacks like ground AoE and any large radius cleave" was always a valid trade off. In other words, After I suggest, the lack or horizontal mobility from using Mirage Cloak (MC) was always a valid trade-off which you (Ronald) responded saying "
How is that a trade off
when you are able to
jaunt, port, or sword leap
away from those things?" So in effect your are asserting a counter argument that disagrees and asserts that since Mirage has mobility utilities like jaunt, port, sword leap ambush (ironic) it doesn't need the second dodge. Additionally, your statement implies that Mirage has as much ability to get out of AoE as other classes due to utility skills like jaunt, portal, etc. However, as I pointed out every class has similar mobility skills on weapons and as utility skills that can also be used in the same way, the difference is those other classes ALL get 2+ dodges that DO provide them horizontal movement when they gain evade frame, Mirage doesn't. Therefore, as I said before, you are apparently asserting that Mirage doesnt need 2 dodges because it has utility and weapon skills that add mobility. I countered by pointing out that every class has that in addition to the 2+ normal dodges which would seem to clearly make one dodge an invalid trade off in that its like a double penalty unlike any other classes trade off. Also dodge as others keep pointing out is a core ability that arguably shouldn't have ever been removed because its a core ability. Also while on the topic I will restate that that MC has a trade-off build in as much as any other elite spec even with 2 dodges. Not sure why you refuse to admit the fact, but its ok.> @Ronald McDonald.8165 said:

No, that isn't what I am implying. What I am trying to say is that on the list of reasons Mirage could use another dodge, getting out of AOEs was literally never on my list. The thought "if only I had a second dodge to get out of this AOE" has either never happened or happened so infrequently that I don't remember ever having it.

Thats funny I guess you have not played much Mirage in the last year or two. That explains your perspective on its balance, however.

I have played Condi Mirage and Condi Chrono near exclusively for the past 8 months or so. I never have played the easy classes in MMOs and never will. I have always enjoyed being the underdog and outplaying my opponents. I don't want or expect to have easy handed to me on a silver platter, but I guess that explains the difference on our perspectives for balance.

As I said earlier "I have to agree with both Helseth and Shorts (which I think is pretty easy to say are the two best Mesmer players) that adding the 2nd dodge to Mirage will break the class and is toxic for the game. Unhealthy mechanics are not good for the game. Like most everyone else, I don't enjoy playing against unhealthy mechanics, so I don't find the solution to be to add more. I play Mesmer 99% of the time. Just because other classes have unhealthy mechanics, doesn't mean I want one too."

So you see, I am very far from alone on my sentiments regarding Mirage balance. Like Helseth, I think Mirage's resustain is the bigger issue for Mirage than a second dodge. Mirage has one of the worst heals in the game, it's on a long cooldown, and the only real resustain Mirage and Mesmer really has is to exit combat. The only other class that operates like that is thief, but thief can disengage (and reengage) MUCH easier than Mesmer. That is the reason Mesmer is essentially useless on maps like Skyhammer, because disengage is next to impossible.

You seem to primarily be looking at things from a rPvP perspective which is fine. However, you arent going to run into the same issues with AoE and cleaves pvp vs wvw, still the issue I pointed out has yet to actually be adressed or refuted by you. All you have done now is quote two well known players making general comments that dont address the specifics that I am talking about that you seem to want to claim are wrong without actually bringing any relevent counter argument. You simply claim its never been an issue for you so it must not be a real thing. Which is a very poor argument especially considering how common it is for mesmers to point to the lack of mobility from MC and how it creates an obvious and unescapable downside when caught in AoE and cleave. The generalized and very old quotes are pretty pointless to me as a counter argument since it is a broad generalization that neither supports or refutes your argument or mine.

So we are talking about WvW and not PvP? That is fine. Like I said I have been playing Chronomancer and Mirage almost exclusively. That includes in both a WvW and PvP environment. You dismiss utilities to escape AOEs as being valid. I can prove that wrong very easily. Play Chronomancer in WvW. Find out how much more punishing it is to play as Chronomancer in WvW when you don't have all those utilities that Mirage has to escape cleave and AOE. A second dodge does not come close to removing you from the situations nearly as well as what you have with Mirage. As Chronomancer if you are stuck in cleave and AOE you have one single option and that is to teleport out, if that is on CD you have 0 options. As a Mirage you have many actual options. You can jaunt, you can MC, you can axe 2 for mobility, you can port with axe 3 to avoid it, you can sword ambush, you can distort. You have soooooooo much more leeway as Mirage to find yourself in those kind of situations and survive because of it's kit. Play Chronomancer and see just how wrong you are in assuming that having 2 regular dodges makes up for all of those things.

No thats just it, you are going in circles and and ignoreing that the actual argument I and others made. Which is simply that since EVERY class has mobility utilities those not a "Mesmer thing". However, Mirage cloak is. Additionally, the point is that
Mirage cloak DOESNT give the STANDARD MOBILITY that NORMAL DODGE HAS MIRAGE CLOAK HAS NO MOBILITY PROVIDED. MEANING, YOU STAY IN PLACE.
WHICH IS WHY, I SAID, MC COMES WITH LESS MOBILITY, WHICH MAKES MIRAGE MORE VULNERABLE TO AoE AND CLEAVE.
ITS NOT OPINION OR VIEW ITS FACT.
YOU ARE TRYING TO GO AROUND IT AND CLAIM ITS PLAY STYLE.
YOU ARE WRONG FACTUALLY
. YOUR OPINION DOESNT COME INTO IT.
YOUR PLAY STYLE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IT.

Rather than actually talk about the facts of the topic you keep trying to claim you are such an amazing Mesmer that you apparently dominate everyone and never die. Can we see some video? Cause I simply think your 100% full of it. You are worked hard to avoid the actual topic with generalizations, appeal to authority and a number of other fallacies.

Alright, time to take you to school. Let's dissect this nonsense bit by bit:"Rather than actually talk about the facts of the topic you keep trying to claim you are such an amazing Mesmer that you apparently dominate everyone and never die." -never once made that statement. Not a single time did I ever claim anything about my own skills as a Mesmer. All I have said is that for around the past year my time has been spent almost exclusively playing Mirage and Chronomancer. What you just did is a logical fall- oh wait, it's just called a lie.

"You are worked hard to avoid the actual topic with generalizations, appeal to authority and a number of other fallacies."This will be a fun one to pick apart. Let's start with a definition:Generalization: a broad statement or an idea that is applied to a group of people or things.I will type in caps because apparently you find that easier to read. WHAT I DID IS CALLED SPECIFICATION. I USED SPECIFIC EXAMPLES, LITERALLY LISTING THEM OUT "You can jaunt, you can MC, you can axe 2 for mobility, you can port with axe 3 to avoid it, you can sword ambush, you can distort." <-----THESE ARE SPECIFIC EXAMPLES. HENCE, NOT GENERALIZING.

In response to your appeal to authority fallacy that you are claiming. Every single competitive game is majority balanced around the top. What that means is that balance decisions are based off of how the best players are performing. The reasoning behind this is that best players have the best understanding of the game and how it works. That is why they are the best players. Just the other day someone in the mists map chat was complaining that Revenant is one of the weakest classes in the game right now in PvP, yet the top teams currently are running 2+ Revenants. They are running 2+ Revenants because they are (unlike what random guy in map chat states) one of the best classes in the game. They are winning with 2+ Revenants because they understand that. Balance choices aren't aimed for the guy who doesn't properly know how to play Revenant. Which is why this statement: "
YOUR PLAY STYLE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IT.
" is utter nonsense. There is a right way to play something and there is a wrong way to play something. As the point is clearly made by the player complaining that Revenant is weak, that is his playstyle is WRONG. It is also not an appeal to authority because I am believing what they are saying because of their reasoning behind their thoughts. Not solely because of their standings.

Let's continue our discussion on fallacies. "
Mirage cloak DOESNT give the STANDARD MOBILITY that NORMAL DODGE HAS MIRAGE CLOAK HAS NO MOBILITY PROVIDED. MEANING, YOU STAY IN PLACE.
WHICH IS WHY, I SAID, MC COMES WITH LESS MOBILITY, WHICH MAKES MIRAGE MORE VULNERABLE TO AoE AND CLEAVE.
ITS NOT OPINION OR VIEW ITS FACT.
"

This statement is what is called a FALSE EQUIVALENCY. You can make the statement MC has less mobility and therefore try to argue that MC is more vulnerable to AOE and cleave. But MC being more vulnerable to AOE and cleave DOES NOT EQUAL Mirage is more vulnerable to AOE and cleave. You can't pretend that the entirety of the Mirage kit just disappears because they have MC. That is why I use Chronomancer as a counter example. It is about as an apples to apples comparison as you can make. Showing that utility/weapon skills/etc. is just as important if not more important in many situations than having a normal dodge. And why playstyle does matter, if you are unable to properly respond to an AOE with the tools you have available that can do such, that is not the games fault that is your own.

Now all it takes is a single counter point to prove something wrong. So let's do that with this statement "
Mirage cloak DOESNT give the STANDARD MOBILITY that NORMAL DODGE HAS MIRAGE CLOAK HAS NO MOBILITY PROVIDED. MEANING, YOU STAY IN PLACE.
WHICH IS WHY, I SAID, MC COMES WITH LESS MOBILITY, WHICH MAKES MIRAGE MORE VULNERABLE TO AoE AND CLEAVE.
ITS NOT OPINION OR VIEW ITS FACT.
"

So let us take a situation where you are CC'd - knocked down, stunned, etc in AOE/cleave. If you only have regular dodges at your disposal and nothing else you are taking a massive amount of damage as you have no way to avoid it. If you only have MC at your disposal you can avoid a huge chunk of that damage by using MC. In this instance Mirage is LESS VULNERABLE TO AOE AND CLEAVE BECAUSE OF MC. This is actually one of the reasons people find MC to be such a toxic addition to the game because it allows Mirage to effectively not be punished for the mistake they made that put them in that situation.

Now what I just did there is called a counter point. It proves what you call a "FACT" to be wrong.

To me it seems like you watched a youtube video on logical fallacies and have some minor baseline understanding of them. I recommend you dive deeper and watch more youtube videos or read more about them so you can use those words properly.

Now I am not here arguing that Mirage isn't weak. It most definitely is one of the weakest classes in the game. At the same time I don't think that it is so weak that its akin to this tiny fly that that dies just because someone breathed in it's general direction. And I don't find it's ability to deal with cleave or AOE is a core problem that needs discussion or balancing around. In all honesty, we all know nothing major is going to happen to Mirage or any class for that matter. Every other class seems to slowly be getting nerfed which is an indirect buff to Mesmer. And nothing major is going to happen as the next expansion is coming soon and any sort of balance that we have right now is going to go right out the window with the new e-specs. Would I like some buffs to Mirage, hell yeah. But I also want them to be healthy for the game and focused on where it's needed.

From what bits I did read you are just off the rails in so many ways that I dont feel I need to respond. My previous statements stand. You have failed to counter my argument yet again. I feel no need even read all of this since its obvious you are just still unwilling to directly address the simple mechanical facts and admit that i and others are correct or even that the point is valid. Pretty sad. =(

It was cool, it went into how you don't know what logical fallacies are and reiterated my previous points in much more detail.

Thats funny cause I actually do understand rhetoric it was an aspect of critical thinking in school. =)

Here is an example of appeat to authority fallacy:

@Ronald McDonald.8165 said:

@Salt Mode.3780 said:the only way for a stationary dodge work the same way as a normal dodge to evade aoe or multiple aoe is to give it superspeed instead of just a normal speed boon but honestly tht would be too strong so i dont mind it being hindered by cripple or chill

Right its ok to have a trade off like getting to attack during the dodges evade frame in exchange for being more vulnerable to certain types of attacks like ground AoE and any large radius cleaves. But ohh wait that WAS the trade off before Anet decided to ignore it and say it didnt have one, and removed a dodge, etc, etc. Meanwhile many in the community are willing to suggest it was Ok for people who decided to run condi gear and not ok for people who run power gear which ultumatly muted the classes ability to object and actually helped kill the class. Good job all. Thanks everyone! LOL

How is that a trade off when you are able to jaunt, port, or sword leap away from those things? Mirage dodge is clearly a problem that needs to be addressed if Mirage is to have two dodges.

So your apparent counter argument is that Mirage should only have 1 dodge because it has utility skills that can add mobility to a build the same way that pretty much every class and elite spec has including core Mes and chrono along with thief, dd, de, guard, fb, dh, necro, reaper, scourge, rev, herald, renegade, ranger, druid, soulbeast, on and on. your point seems invalid.

I literally never said any of those things, but acting like Mirage can't get out of AOEs is kind of silly.
Mirage is the weakest class right now, but I don't agree though that adding the 2nd dodge back is what is good and healthy for the game. I have to agree with both Helseth and Shorts (which I think is pretty easy to say are the two best Mesmer players) that adding the 2nd dodge to Mirage will break the class and is toxic for the game.
Unhealthy mechanics are not good for the game. Like most everyone else, I don't enjoy playing against unhealthy mechanics, so I don't find the solution to be to add more. I play Mesmer 99% of the time. Just because other classes have unhealthy mechanics, doesn't mean I want one too.

Simply put, you make a weak argument that once again goes around talking about Mirage Cloak's lack of mobility compared to normal dodge by making a false equivalency by convoluting Mirage cloak mobility with overall Mirage mobility. Additionally, you also use appeal to authority here by then invoking the name of two well known and respected members of the community with another statement that talks about a much broader topic and you try, rather falsely, attach the view of these authorities to your own. You dont directly quite them supporting the argument that Mirage Cloak has more mobility than normal dodge at all. Yet you try to claim authority through using the name. Kinda like when commercials say 5 of 10 Doctors recommend this product while the actor wears a lab coat to make themselves look like on of those Doctors.

Again, your sidelines to the actual very basic, mechanically factual argument only confuse and derail the overall thread. The point I made as an agreeing response to another poster on page 1 about Mirage Cloak's lack of a mobility component. You have now spent I dont know how many posts attempting to go around the facts and somehow make yourself sound right without ever actually refuting the facts. You're simply wrong, factually.

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Ronald McDonald.8165

Ronald McDonald.8165

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@Moradorin.6217 said:

@Salt Mode.3780 said:the only way for a stationary dodge work the same way as a normal dodge to evade aoe or multiple aoe is to give it superspeed instead of just a normal speed boon but honestly tht would be too strong so i dont mind it being hindered by cripple or chill

Right its ok to have a trade off like getting to attack during the dodges evade frame in exchange for being more vulnerable to certain types of attacks like ground AoE and any large radius cleaves. But ohh wait that WAS the trade off before Anet decided to ignore it and say it didnt have one, and removed a dodge, etc, etc. Meanwhile many in the community are willing to suggest it was Ok for people who decided to run condi gear and not ok for people who run power gear which ultumatly muted the classes ability to object and actually helped kill the class. Good job all. Thanks everyone! LOL

How is that a trade off when you are able to jaunt, port, or sword leap away from those things?
Mirage dodge is clearly a problem that needs to be addressed if Mirage is to have two dodges.

@Salt Mode.3780 said:the only way for a stationary dodge work the same way as a normal dodge to evade aoe or multiple aoe is to give it superspeed instead of just a normal speed boon but honestly tht would be too strong so i dont mind it being hindered by cripple or chill

Right its ok to have a trade off like getting to attack during the dodges evade frame in exchange for being more vulnerable to certain types of attacks like ground AoE and any large radius cleaves. But ohh wait that WAS the trade off before Anet decided to ignore it and say it didnt have one, and removed a dodge, etc, etc. Meanwhile many in the community are willing to suggest it was Ok for people who decided to run condi gear and not ok for people who run power gear which ultumatly muted the classes ability to object and actually helped kill the class. Good job all. Thanks everyone! LOL

How is that a trade off when you are able to jaunt, port, or sword leap away from those things? Mirage dodge is clearly a problem that needs to be addressed if Mirage is to have two dodges.

So your apparent counter argument is that Mirage should only have 1 dodge because it has utility skills that can add mobility to a build the same way that pretty much every class and elite spec has including core Mes and chrono along with thief, dd, de, guard, fb, dh, necro, reaper, scourge, rev, herald, renegade, ranger, druid, soulbeast, on and on. your point seems invalid.

I literally never said any of those things, but acting like Mirage can't get out of AOEs is kind of silly. Mirage is the weakest class right now, but I don't agree though that adding the 2nd dodge back is what is good and healthy for the game. [...]

You literally said that. =)

I literally didn't =)

I will try to elaborate more so you can understand.

After I said that "getting to attack during the dodges evade frame in exchange for being more vulnerable to certain types of attacks like ground AoE and any large radius cleave" was always a valid trade off. In other words, After I suggest, the lack or horizontal mobility from using Mirage Cloak (MC) was always a valid trade-off which you (Ronald) responded saying "
How is that a trade off
when you are able to
jaunt, port, or sword leap
away from those things?" So in effect your are asserting a counter argument that disagrees and asserts that since Mirage has mobility utilities like jaunt, port, sword leap ambush (ironic) it doesn't need the second dodge. Additionally, your statement implies that Mirage has as much ability to get out of AoE as other classes due to utility skills like jaunt, portal, etc. However, as I pointed out every class has similar mobility skills on weapons and as utility skills that can also be used in the same way, the difference is those other classes ALL get 2+ dodges that DO provide them horizontal movement when they gain evade frame, Mirage doesn't. Therefore, as I said before, you are apparently asserting that Mirage doesnt need 2 dodges because it has utility and weapon skills that add mobility. I countered by pointing out that every class has that in addition to the 2+ normal dodges which would seem to clearly make one dodge an invalid trade off in that its like a double penalty unlike any other classes trade off. Also dodge as others keep pointing out is a core ability that arguably shouldn't have ever been removed because its a core ability. Also while on the topic I will restate that that MC has a trade-off build in as much as any other elite spec even with 2 dodges. Not sure why you refuse to admit the fact, but its ok.> @Ronald McDonald.8165 said:

No, that isn't what I am implying. What I am trying to say is that on the list of reasons Mirage could use another dodge, getting out of AOEs was literally never on my list. The thought "if only I had a second dodge to get out of this AOE" has either never happened or happened so infrequently that I don't remember ever having it.

Thats funny I guess you have not played much Mirage in the last year or two. That explains your perspective on its balance, however.

I have played Condi Mirage and Condi Chrono near exclusively for the past 8 months or so. I never have played the easy classes in MMOs and never will. I have always enjoyed being the underdog and outplaying my opponents. I don't want or expect to have easy handed to me on a silver platter, but I guess that explains the difference on our perspectives for balance.

As I said earlier "I have to agree with both Helseth and Shorts (which I think is pretty easy to say are the two best Mesmer players) that adding the 2nd dodge to Mirage will break the class and is toxic for the game. Unhealthy mechanics are not good for the game. Like most everyone else, I don't enjoy playing against unhealthy mechanics, so I don't find the solution to be to add more. I play Mesmer 99% of the time. Just because other classes have unhealthy mechanics, doesn't mean I want one too."

So you see, I am very far from alone on my sentiments regarding Mirage balance. Like Helseth, I think Mirage's resustain is the bigger issue for Mirage than a second dodge. Mirage has one of the worst heals in the game, it's on a long cooldown, and the only real resustain Mirage and Mesmer really has is to exit combat. The only other class that operates like that is thief, but thief can disengage (and reengage) MUCH easier than Mesmer. That is the reason Mesmer is essentially useless on maps like Skyhammer, because disengage is next to impossible.

You seem to primarily be looking at things from a rPvP perspective which is fine. However, you arent going to run into the same issues with AoE and cleaves pvp vs wvw, still the issue I pointed out has yet to actually be adressed or refuted by you. All you have done now is quote two well known players making general comments that dont address the specifics that I am talking about that you seem to want to claim are wrong without actually bringing any relevent counter argument. You simply claim its never been an issue for you so it must not be a real thing. Which is a very poor argument especially considering how common it is for mesmers to point to the lack of mobility from MC and how it creates an obvious and unescapable downside when caught in AoE and cleave. The generalized and very old quotes are pretty pointless to me as a counter argument since it is a broad generalization that neither supports or refutes your argument or mine.

So we are talking about WvW and not PvP? That is fine. Like I said I have been playing Chronomancer and Mirage almost exclusively. That includes in both a WvW and PvP environment. You dismiss utilities to escape AOEs as being valid. I can prove that wrong very easily. Play Chronomancer in WvW. Find out how much more punishing it is to play as Chronomancer in WvW when you don't have all those utilities that Mirage has to escape cleave and AOE. A second dodge does not come close to removing you from the situations nearly as well as what you have with Mirage. As Chronomancer if you are stuck in cleave and AOE you have one single option and that is to teleport out, if that is on CD you have 0 options. As a Mirage you have many actual options. You can jaunt, you can MC, you can axe 2 for mobility, you can port with axe 3 to avoid it, you can sword ambush, you can distort. You have soooooooo much more leeway as Mirage to find yourself in those kind of situations and survive because of it's kit. Play Chronomancer and see just how wrong you are in assuming that having 2 regular dodges makes up for all of those things.

No thats just it, you are going in circles and and ignoreing that the actual argument I and others made. Which is simply that since EVERY class has mobility utilities those not a "Mesmer thing". However, Mirage cloak is. Additionally, the point is that
Mirage cloak DOESNT give the STANDARD MOBILITY that NORMAL DODGE HAS MIRAGE CLOAK HAS NO MOBILITY PROVIDED. MEANING, YOU STAY IN PLACE.
WHICH IS WHY, I SAID, MC COMES WITH LESS MOBILITY, WHICH MAKES MIRAGE MORE VULNERABLE TO AoE AND CLEAVE.
ITS NOT OPINION OR VIEW ITS FACT.
YOU ARE TRYING TO GO AROUND IT AND CLAIM ITS PLAY STYLE.
YOU ARE WRONG FACTUALLY
. YOUR OPINION DOESNT COME INTO IT.
YOUR PLAY STYLE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IT.

Rather than actually talk about the facts of the topic you keep trying to claim you are such an amazing Mesmer that you apparently dominate everyone and never die. Can we see some video? Cause I simply think your 100% full of it. You are worked hard to avoid the actual topic with generalizations, appeal to authority and a number of other fallacies.

Alright, time to take you to school. Let's dissect this nonsense bit by bit:"Rather than actually talk about the facts of the topic you keep trying to claim you are such an amazing Mesmer that you apparently dominate everyone and never die." -never once made that statement. Not a single time did I ever claim anything about my own skills as a Mesmer. All I have said is that for around the past year my time has been spent almost exclusively playing Mirage and Chronomancer. What you just did is a logical fall- oh wait, it's just called a lie.

"You are worked hard to avoid the actual topic with generalizations, appeal to authority and a number of other fallacies."This will be a fun one to pick apart. Let's start with a definition:Generalization: a broad statement or an idea that is applied to a group of people or things.I will type in caps because apparently you find that easier to read. WHAT I DID IS CALLED SPECIFICATION. I USED SPECIFIC EXAMPLES, LITERALLY LISTING THEM OUT "You can jaunt, you can MC, you can axe 2 for mobility, you can port with axe 3 to avoid it, you can sword ambush, you can distort." <-----THESE ARE SPECIFIC EXAMPLES. HENCE, NOT GENERALIZING.

In response to your appeal to authority fallacy that you are claiming. Every single competitive game is majority balanced around the top. What that means is that balance decisions are based off of how the best players are performing. The reasoning behind this is that best players have the best understanding of the game and how it works. That is why they are the best players. Just the other day someone in the mists map chat was complaining that Revenant is one of the weakest classes in the game right now in PvP, yet the top teams currently are running 2+ Revenants. They are running 2+ Revenants because they are (unlike what random guy in map chat states) one of the best classes in the game. They are winning with 2+ Revenants because they understand that. Balance choices aren't aimed for the guy who doesn't properly know how to play Revenant. Which is why this statement: "
YOUR PLAY STYLE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IT.
" is utter nonsense. There is a right way to play something and there is a wrong way to play something. As the point is clearly made by the player complaining that Revenant is weak, that is his playstyle is WRONG. It is also not an appeal to authority because I am believing what they are saying because of their reasoning behind their thoughts. Not solely because of their standings.

Let's continue our discussion on fallacies. "
Mirage cloak DOESNT give the STANDARD MOBILITY that NORMAL DODGE HAS MIRAGE CLOAK HAS NO MOBILITY PROVIDED. MEANING, YOU STAY IN PLACE.
WHICH IS WHY, I SAID, MC COMES WITH LESS MOBILITY, WHICH MAKES MIRAGE MORE VULNERABLE TO AoE AND CLEAVE.
ITS NOT OPINION OR VIEW ITS FACT.
"

This statement is what is called a FALSE EQUIVALENCY. You can make the statement MC has less mobility and therefore try to argue that MC is more vulnerable to AOE and cleave. But MC being more vulnerable to AOE and cleave DOES NOT EQUAL Mirage is more vulnerable to AOE and cleave. You can't pretend that the entirety of the Mirage kit just disappears because they have MC. That is why I use Chronomancer as a counter example. It is about as an apples to apples comparison as you can make. Showing that utility/weapon skills/etc. is just as important if not more important in many situations than having a normal dodge. And why playstyle does matter, if you are unable to properly respond to an AOE with the tools you have available that can do such, that is not the games fault that is your own.

Now all it takes is a single counter point to prove something wrong. So let's do that with this statement "
Mirage cloak DOESNT give the STANDARD MOBILITY that NORMAL DODGE HAS MIRAGE CLOAK HAS NO MOBILITY PROVIDED. MEANING, YOU STAY IN PLACE.
WHICH IS WHY, I SAID, MC COMES WITH LESS MOBILITY, WHICH MAKES MIRAGE MORE VULNERABLE TO AoE AND CLEAVE.
ITS NOT OPINION OR VIEW ITS FACT.
"

So let us take a situation where you are CC'd - knocked down, stunned, etc in AOE/cleave. If you only have regular dodges at your disposal and nothing else you are taking a massive amount of damage as you have no way to avoid it. If you only have MC at your disposal you can avoid a huge chunk of that damage by using MC. In this instance Mirage is LESS VULNERABLE TO AOE AND CLEAVE BECAUSE OF MC. This is actually one of the reasons people find MC to be such a toxic addition to the game because it allows Mirage to effectively not be punished for the mistake they made that put them in that situation.

Now what I just did there is called a counter point. It proves what you call a "FACT" to be wrong.

To me it seems like you watched a youtube video on logical fallacies and have some minor baseline understanding of them. I recommend you dive deeper and watch more youtube videos or read more about them so you can use those words properly.

Now I am not here arguing that Mirage isn't weak. It most definitely is one of the weakest classes in the game. At the same time I don't think that it is so weak that its akin to this tiny fly that that dies just because someone breathed in it's general direction. And I don't find it's ability to deal with cleave or AOE is a core problem that needs discussion or balancing around. In all honesty, we all know nothing major is going to happen to Mirage or any class for that matter. Every other class seems to slowly be getting nerfed which is an indirect buff to Mesmer. And nothing major is going to happen as the next expansion is coming soon and any sort of balance that we have right now is going to go right out the window with the new e-specs. Would I like some buffs to Mirage, hell yeah. But I also want them to be healthy for the game and focused on where it's needed.

From what bits I did read you are just off the rails in so many ways that I dont feel I need to respond. My previous statements stand. You have failed to counter my argument yet again. I feel no need even read all of this since its obvious you are just still unwilling to directly address the simple mechanical facts and admit that i and others are correct or even that the point is valid. Pretty sad. =(

It was cool, it went into how you don't know what logical fallacies are and reiterated my previous points in much more detail.

Thats funny cause I actually do understand rhetoric it was an aspect of critical thinking in school. =)

Here is an example of appeat to authority fallacy:

@Salt Mode.3780 said:the only way for a stationary dodge work the same way as a normal dodge to evade aoe or multiple aoe is to give it superspeed instead of just a normal speed boon but honestly tht would be too strong so i dont mind it being hindered by cripple or chill

Right its ok to have a trade off like getting to attack during the dodges evade frame in exchange for being more vulnerable to certain types of attacks like ground AoE and any large radius cleaves. But ohh wait that WAS the trade off before Anet decided to ignore it and say it didnt have one, and removed a dodge, etc, etc. Meanwhile many in the community are willing to suggest it was Ok for people who decided to run condi gear and not ok for people who run power gear which ultumatly muted the classes ability to object and actually helped kill the class. Good job all. Thanks everyone! LOL

How is that a trade off when you are able to jaunt, port, or sword leap away from those things? Mirage dodge is clearly a problem that needs to be addressed if Mirage is to have two dodges.

So your apparent counter argument is that Mirage should only have 1 dodge because it has utility skills that can add mobility to a build the same way that pretty much every class and elite spec has including core Mes and chrono along with thief, dd, de, guard, fb, dh, necro, reaper, scourge, rev, herald, renegade, ranger, druid, soulbeast, on and on. your point seems invalid.

I literally never said any of those things, but acting like Mirage can't get out of AOEs is kind of silly.
Mirage is the weakest class right now, but I don't agree though that adding the 2nd dodge back is what is good and healthy for the game. I have to agree with both Helseth and Shorts (which I think is pretty easy to say are the two best Mesmer players) that adding the 2nd dodge to Mirage will break the class and is toxic for the game.
Unhealthy mechanics are not good for the game. Like most everyone else, I don't enjoy playing against unhealthy mechanics, so I don't find the solution to be to add more. I play Mesmer 99% of the time. Just because other classes have unhealthy mechanics, doesn't mean I want one too.

Simply put, you make a weak argument that once again goes around talking about Mirage Cloak's lack of mobility compared to normal dodge by making a false equivalency by convoluting Mirage cloak mobility with overall Mirage mobility. Additionally, you also use appeal to authority here by then invoking the name of two well known and respected members of the community with another statement that talks about a much broader topic and you try, rather falsely, attach the view of these authorities to your own. You dont directly quite them supporting the argument that Mirage Cloak has more mobility than normal dodge at all. Yet you try to claim authority through using the name. Kinda like when commercials say 5 of 10 Doctors recommend this product while the actor wears a lab coat to make themselves look like on of those Doctors.

Again, your sidelines to the actual very basic, mechanically factual argument only confuse and derail the overall thread. The point I made as an agreeing response to another poster on page 1 about Mirage Cloak's lack of a mobility component. You have now spent I dont know how many posts attempting to go around the facts and somehow make yourself sound right without ever actually refuting the facts. You're simply wrong, factually.

I am going to provide you with more definitions and examples to make this easier for you to digest and hopefully you can learn something.

Appeal to Authority:Description: Insisting that a claim is true simply because a valid authority or expert on the issue said it was true, without any other supporting evidence offered. Also see the appeal to false authority .

Logical Form:

According to person 1, who is an expert on the issue of Y, Y is true.

Therefore, Y is true.

https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/logicalfallacies/Appeal-to-Authority

The lesson here is that the issue is citing an authority and stating that your claim is true solely because you state the authority said so. So let me explain why this quote is not that.

Mirage is the weakest class right now, but I don't agree though that adding the 2nd dodge back is what is good and healthy for the game. I have to agree with both Helseth and Shorts (which I think is pretty easy to say are the two best Mesmer players) that adding the 2nd dodge to Mirage will break the class and is toxic for the game. Unhealthy mechanics are not good for the game. Like most everyone else, I don't enjoy playing against unhealthy mechanics, so I don't find the solution to be to add more. I play Mesmer 99% of the time. Just because other classes have unhealthy mechanics, doesn't mean I want one too.

The part that you placed asterisks around could be considered an appeal to authority IF the sentences following did not exist. Unfortunately for you, they do. To make it easier for you to digest pretend the word BECAUSE was added before you last asterisks:

"Mirage is the weakest class right now, but I don't agree though that adding the 2nd dodge back is what is good and healthy for the game. I have to agree with both Helseth and Shorts (which I think is pretty easy to say are the two best Mesmer players) that adding the 2nd dodge to Mirage will break the class and is toxic for the game. because unhealthy mechanics are not good for the game, because like most everyone else I don't enjoy playing against unhealthy mechanics, so I don't find the solution to be to add more. I play Mesmer 99% of the time. Just because other classes have unhealthy mechanics, doesn't mean I want one too. "

Here is another example of something I said earlier in the discussion:

"Like Helseth, I think Mirage's resustain is the bigger issue for Mirage than a second dodge. Mirage has one of the worst heals in the game, it's on a long cooldown, and the only real resustain Mirage and Mesmer really has is to exit combat. The only other class that operates like that is thief, but thief can disengage (and reengage) MUCH easier than Mesmer. That is the reason Mesmer is essentially useless on maps like Skyhammer, because disengage is next to impossible."

This again IS NOT an appeal to authority. Just because you use an authority figure in an argument, it does not automatically make it an appeal to authority. If I said "Helseth said this, therefore it's true. ", then that would be an appeal to authority. Do you understand the difference? I don't want to have this conversation again.

"Additionally, you also use appeal to authority here by then invoking the name of two well known and respected members of the community with another statement that talks about a much broader topic and you try, rather falsely, attach the view of these authorities to your own. You dont directly quite them supporting the argument that Mirage Cloak has more mobility than normal dodge at all. Yet you try to claim authority through using the name. "

In response to this quote, I really don't know how many times I need to say this: This is not an argument I am making. I have stated this repeatedly. I have corrected you multiple times in stating this isn't my argument NOR at any point did I say Helseth or Shorts made this argument. Never once did I say Helseth or Shorts compared MC mobility to regular dodge. My argument was specifically addressing a second dodge. How you even came to this conclusion is well beyond me. You even quoted my post where I used their names! You know exactly what I said! You literally just quoted it! Did you even read it?! This argument has devolved into you repeatedly making things up. I am going to call you out AGAIN for blatantly lying and misrepresenting what I said.

" Simply put, you make a weak argument that once again goes around talking about Mirage Cloak's lack of mobility compared to normal dodge by making a false equivalency by convoluting Mirage cloak mobility with overall Mirage mobility."

And another lie, never tried to make an equivalency between MC and Mirage mobility. With that said, I am sorry to state that if it is too convoluted for you to understand how MC doesn't operate in a vacuum, but operates within the rest of the Mirage toolkit I can't have any sort of discussion of balance with you. It just isn't possible. Because you then lack the ability to understand Mirage or any class for that matter. It would be like me stating "Distortion on F4 isn't overpowered on Mirage, so lets give it to Revenants as well because it isn't overpowered". That is such a ridiculous statement to make because Revenant already has a strong and bloated kit that giving it distortion as well would be RIDICULOUSLY overpowered. And the way you come to this understanding is by realizing you can't look at Distortion in a vacuum but you have to compare it to the rest of the kit.

There is really no point in talking to you anymore. This discussion has reached the point of you repeatedly lying and misrepresenting things I have said. You clearly can't have an honest discussion. I am done thoughtfully responding to you.

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Moradorin.6217

Moradorin.6217

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@Ronald McDonald.8165 said:

@Salt Mode.3780 said:the only way for a stationary dodge work the same way as a normal dodge to evade aoe or multiple aoe is to give it superspeed instead of just a normal speed boon but honestly tht would be too strong so i dont mind it being hindered by cripple or chill

Right its ok to have a trade off like getting to attack during the dodges evade frame in exchange for being more vulnerable to certain types of attacks like ground AoE and any large radius cleaves. But ohh wait that WAS the trade off before Anet decided to ignore it and say it didnt have one, and removed a dodge, etc, etc. Meanwhile many in the community are willing to suggest it was Ok for people who decided to run condi gear and not ok for people who run power gear which ultumatly muted the classes ability to object and actually helped kill the class. Good job all. Thanks everyone! LOL

How is that a trade off when you are able to jaunt, port, or sword leap away from those things?
Mirage dodge is clearly a problem that needs to be addressed if Mirage is to have two dodges.

@Salt Mode.3780 said:the only way for a stationary dodge work the same way as a normal dodge to evade aoe or multiple aoe is to give it superspeed instead of just a normal speed boon but honestly tht would be too strong so i dont mind it being hindered by cripple or chill

Right its ok to have a trade off like getting to attack during the dodges evade frame in exchange for being more vulnerable to certain types of attacks like ground AoE and any large radius cleaves. But ohh wait that WAS the trade off before Anet decided to ignore it and say it didnt have one, and removed a dodge, etc, etc. Meanwhile many in the community are willing to suggest it was Ok for people who decided to run condi gear and not ok for people who run power gear which ultumatly muted the classes ability to object and actually helped kill the class. Good job all. Thanks everyone! LOL

How is that a trade off when you are able to jaunt, port, or sword leap away from those things? Mirage dodge is clearly a problem that needs to be addressed if Mirage is to have two dodges.

So your apparent counter argument is that Mirage should only have 1 dodge because it has utility skills that can add mobility to a build the same way that pretty much every class and elite spec has including core Mes and chrono along with thief, dd, de, guard, fb, dh, necro, reaper, scourge, rev, herald, renegade, ranger, druid, soulbeast, on and on. your point seems invalid.

I literally never said any of those things, but acting like Mirage can't get out of AOEs is kind of silly. Mirage is the weakest class right now, but I don't agree though that adding the 2nd dodge back is what is good and healthy for the game. [...]

You literally said that. =)

I literally didn't =)

I will try to elaborate more so you can understand.

After I said that "getting to attack during the dodges evade frame in exchange for being more vulnerable to certain types of attacks like ground AoE and any large radius cleave" was always a valid trade off. In other words, After I suggest, the lack or horizontal mobility from using Mirage Cloak (MC) was always a valid trade-off which you (Ronald) responded saying "
How is that a trade off
when you are able to
jaunt, port, or sword leap
away from those things?" So in effect your are asserting a counter argument that disagrees and asserts that since Mirage has mobility utilities like jaunt, port, sword leap ambush (ironic) it doesn't need the second dodge. Additionally, your statement implies that Mirage has as much ability to get out of AoE as other classes due to utility skills like jaunt, portal, etc. However, as I pointed out every class has similar mobility skills on weapons and as utility skills that can also be used in the same way, the difference is those other classes ALL get 2+ dodges that DO provide them horizontal movement when they gain evade frame, Mirage doesn't. Therefore, as I said before, you are apparently asserting that Mirage doesnt need 2 dodges because it has utility and weapon skills that add mobility. I countered by pointing out that every class has that in addition to the 2+ normal dodges which would seem to clearly make one dodge an invalid trade off in that its like a double penalty unlike any other classes trade off. Also dodge as others keep pointing out is a core ability that arguably shouldn't have ever been removed because its a core ability. Also while on the topic I will restate that that MC has a trade-off build in as much as any other elite spec even with 2 dodges. Not sure why you refuse to admit the fact, but its ok.> @Ronald McDonald.8165 said:

No, that isn't what I am implying. What I am trying to say is that on the list of reasons Mirage could use another dodge, getting out of AOEs was literally never on my list. The thought "if only I had a second dodge to get out of this AOE" has either never happened or happened so infrequently that I don't remember ever having it.

Thats funny I guess you have not played much Mirage in the last year or two. That explains your perspective on its balance, however.

I have played Condi Mirage and Condi Chrono near exclusively for the past 8 months or so. I never have played the easy classes in MMOs and never will. I have always enjoyed being the underdog and outplaying my opponents. I don't want or expect to have easy handed to me on a silver platter, but I guess that explains the difference on our perspectives for balance.

As I said earlier "I have to agree with both Helseth and Shorts (which I think is pretty easy to say are the two best Mesmer players) that adding the 2nd dodge to Mirage will break the class and is toxic for the game. Unhealthy mechanics are not good for the game. Like most everyone else, I don't enjoy playing against unhealthy mechanics, so I don't find the solution to be to add more. I play Mesmer 99% of the time. Just because other classes have unhealthy mechanics, doesn't mean I want one too."

So you see, I am very far from alone on my sentiments regarding Mirage balance. Like Helseth, I think Mirage's resustain is the bigger issue for Mirage than a second dodge. Mirage has one of the worst heals in the game, it's on a long cooldown, and the only real resustain Mirage and Mesmer really has is to exit combat. The only other class that operates like that is thief, but thief can disengage (and reengage) MUCH easier than Mesmer. That is the reason Mesmer is essentially useless on maps like Skyhammer, because disengage is next to impossible.

You seem to primarily be looking at things from a rPvP perspective which is fine. However, you arent going to run into the same issues with AoE and cleaves pvp vs wvw, still the issue I pointed out has yet to actually be adressed or refuted by you. All you have done now is quote two well known players making general comments that dont address the specifics that I am talking about that you seem to want to claim are wrong without actually bringing any relevent counter argument. You simply claim its never been an issue for you so it must not be a real thing. Which is a very poor argument especially considering how common it is for mesmers to point to the lack of mobility from MC and how it creates an obvious and unescapable downside when caught in AoE and cleave. The generalized and very old quotes are pretty pointless to me as a counter argument since it is a broad generalization that neither supports or refutes your argument or mine.

So we are talking about WvW and not PvP? That is fine. Like I said I have been playing Chronomancer and Mirage almost exclusively. That includes in both a WvW and PvP environment. You dismiss utilities to escape AOEs as being valid. I can prove that wrong very easily. Play Chronomancer in WvW. Find out how much more punishing it is to play as Chronomancer in WvW when you don't have all those utilities that Mirage has to escape cleave and AOE. A second dodge does not come close to removing you from the situations nearly as well as what you have with Mirage. As Chronomancer if you are stuck in cleave and AOE you have one single option and that is to teleport out, if that is on CD you have 0 options. As a Mirage you have many actual options. You can jaunt, you can MC, you can axe 2 for mobility, you can port with axe 3 to avoid it, you can sword ambush, you can distort. You have soooooooo much more leeway as Mirage to find yourself in those kind of situations and survive because of it's kit. Play Chronomancer and see just how wrong you are in assuming that having 2 regular dodges makes up for all of those things.

No thats just it, you are going in circles and and ignoreing that the actual argument I and others made. Which is simply that since EVERY class has mobility utilities those not a "Mesmer thing". However, Mirage cloak is. Additionally, the point is that
Mirage cloak DOESNT give the STANDARD MOBILITY that NORMAL DODGE HAS MIRAGE CLOAK HAS NO MOBILITY PROVIDED. MEANING, YOU STAY IN PLACE.
WHICH IS WHY, I SAID, MC COMES WITH LESS MOBILITY, WHICH MAKES MIRAGE MORE VULNERABLE TO AoE AND CLEAVE.
ITS NOT OPINION OR VIEW ITS FACT.
YOU ARE TRYING TO GO AROUND IT AND CLAIM ITS PLAY STYLE.
YOU ARE WRONG FACTUALLY
. YOUR OPINION DOESNT COME INTO IT.
YOUR PLAY STYLE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IT.

Rather than actually talk about the facts of the topic you keep trying to claim you are such an amazing Mesmer that you apparently dominate everyone and never die. Can we see some video? Cause I simply think your 100% full of it. You are worked hard to avoid the actual topic with generalizations, appeal to authority and a number of other fallacies.

Alright, time to take you to school. Let's dissect this nonsense bit by bit:"Rather than actually talk about the facts of the topic you keep trying to claim you are such an amazing Mesmer that you apparently dominate everyone and never die." -never once made that statement. Not a single time did I ever claim anything about my own skills as a Mesmer. All I have said is that for around the past year my time has been spent almost exclusively playing Mirage and Chronomancer. What you just did is a logical fall- oh wait, it's just called a lie.

"You are worked hard to avoid the actual topic with generalizations, appeal to authority and a number of other fallacies."This will be a fun one to pick apart. Let's start with a definition:Generalization: a broad statement or an idea that is applied to a group of people or things.I will type in caps because apparently you find that easier to read. WHAT I DID IS CALLED SPECIFICATION. I USED SPECIFIC EXAMPLES, LITERALLY LISTING THEM OUT "You can jaunt, you can MC, you can axe 2 for mobility, you can port with axe 3 to avoid it, you can sword ambush, you can distort." <-----THESE ARE SPECIFIC EXAMPLES. HENCE, NOT GENERALIZING.

In response to your appeal to authority fallacy that you are claiming. Every single competitive game is majority balanced around the top. What that means is that balance decisions are based off of how the best players are performing. The reasoning behind this is that best players have the best understanding of the game and how it works. That is why they are the best players. Just the other day someone in the mists map chat was complaining that Revenant is one of the weakest classes in the game right now in PvP, yet the top teams currently are running 2+ Revenants. They are running 2+ Revenants because they are (unlike what random guy in map chat states) one of the best classes in the game. They are winning with 2+ Revenants because they understand that. Balance choices aren't aimed for the guy who doesn't properly know how to play Revenant. Which is why this statement: "
YOUR PLAY STYLE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IT.
" is utter nonsense. There is a right way to play something and there is a wrong way to play something. As the point is clearly made by the player complaining that Revenant is weak, that is his playstyle is WRONG. It is also not an appeal to authority because I am believing what they are saying because of their reasoning behind their thoughts. Not solely because of their standings.

Let's continue our discussion on fallacies. "
Mirage cloak DOESNT give the STANDARD MOBILITY that NORMAL DODGE HAS MIRAGE CLOAK HAS NO MOBILITY PROVIDED. MEANING, YOU STAY IN PLACE.
WHICH IS WHY, I SAID, MC COMES WITH LESS MOBILITY, WHICH MAKES MIRAGE MORE VULNERABLE TO AoE AND CLEAVE.
ITS NOT OPINION OR VIEW ITS FACT.
"

This statement is what is called a FALSE EQUIVALENCY. You can make the statement MC has less mobility and therefore try to argue that MC is more vulnerable to AOE and cleave. But MC being more vulnerable to AOE and cleave DOES NOT EQUAL Mirage is more vulnerable to AOE and cleave. You can't pretend that the entirety of the Mirage kit just disappears because they have MC. That is why I use Chronomancer as a counter example. It is about as an apples to apples comparison as you can make. Showing that utility/weapon skills/etc. is just as important if not more important in many situations than having a normal dodge. And why playstyle does matter, if you are unable to properly respond to an AOE with the tools you have available that can do such, that is not the games fault that is your own.

Now all it takes is a single counter point to prove something wrong. So let's do that with this statement "
Mirage cloak DOESNT give the STANDARD MOBILITY that NORMAL DODGE HAS MIRAGE CLOAK HAS NO MOBILITY PROVIDED. MEANING, YOU STAY IN PLACE.
WHICH IS WHY, I SAID, MC COMES WITH LESS MOBILITY, WHICH MAKES MIRAGE MORE VULNERABLE TO AoE AND CLEAVE.
ITS NOT OPINION OR VIEW ITS FACT.
"

So let us take a situation where you are CC'd - knocked down, stunned, etc in AOE/cleave. If you only have regular dodges at your disposal and nothing else you are taking a massive amount of damage as you have no way to avoid it. If you only have MC at your disposal you can avoid a huge chunk of that damage by using MC. In this instance Mirage is LESS VULNERABLE TO AOE AND CLEAVE BECAUSE OF MC. This is actually one of the reasons people find MC to be such a toxic addition to the game because it allows Mirage to effectively not be punished for the mistake they made that put them in that situation.

Now what I just did there is called a counter point. It proves what you call a "FACT" to be wrong.

To me it seems like you watched a youtube video on logical fallacies and have some minor baseline understanding of them. I recommend you dive deeper and watch more youtube videos or read more about them so you can use those words properly.

Now I am not here arguing that Mirage isn't weak. It most definitely is one of the weakest classes in the game. At the same time I don't think that it is so weak that its akin to this tiny fly that that dies just because someone breathed in it's general direction. And I don't find it's ability to deal with cleave or AOE is a core problem that needs discussion or balancing around. In all honesty, we all know nothing major is going to happen to Mirage or any class for that matter. Every other class seems to slowly be getting nerfed which is an indirect buff to Mesmer. And nothing major is going to happen as the next expansion is coming soon and any sort of balance that we have right now is going to go right out the window with the new e-specs. Would I like some buffs to Mirage, hell yeah. But I also want them to be healthy for the game and focused on where it's needed.

From what bits I did read you are just off the rails in so many ways that I dont feel I need to respond. My previous statements stand. You have failed to counter my argument yet again. I feel no need even read all of this since its obvious you are just still unwilling to directly address the simple mechanical facts and admit that i and others are correct or even that the point is valid. Pretty sad. =(

It was cool, it went into how you don't know what logical fallacies are and reiterated my previous points in much more detail.

Thats funny cause I actually do understand rhetoric it was an aspect of critical thinking in school. =)

Here is an example of appeat to authority fallacy:

@Salt Mode.3780 said:the only way for a stationary dodge work the same way as a normal dodge to evade aoe or multiple aoe is to give it superspeed instead of just a normal speed boon but honestly tht would be too strong so i dont mind it being hindered by cripple or chill

Right its ok to have a trade off like getting to attack during the dodges evade frame in exchange for being more vulnerable to certain types of attacks like ground AoE and any large radius cleaves. But ohh wait that WAS the trade off before Anet decided to ignore it and say it didnt have one, and removed a dodge, etc, etc. Meanwhile many in the community are willing to suggest it was Ok for people who decided to run condi gear and not ok for people who run power gear which ultumatly muted the classes ability to object and actually helped kill the class. Good job all. Thanks everyone! LOL

How is that a trade off when you are able to jaunt, port, or sword leap away from those things? Mirage dodge is clearly a problem that needs to be addressed if Mirage is to have two dodges.

So your apparent counter argument is that Mirage should only have 1 dodge because it has utility skills that can add mobility to a build the same way that pretty much every class and elite spec has including core Mes and chrono along with thief, dd, de, guard, fb, dh, necro, reaper, scourge, rev, herald, renegade, ranger, druid, soulbeast, on and on. your point seems invalid.

I literally never said any of those things, but acting like Mirage can't get out of AOEs is kind of silly.
Mirage is the weakest class right now, but I don't agree though that adding the 2nd dodge back is what is good and healthy for the game. I have to agree with both Helseth and Shorts (which I think is pretty easy to say are the two best Mesmer players) that adding the 2nd dodge to Mirage will break the class and is toxic for the game.
Unhealthy mechanics are not good for the game. Like most everyone else, I don't enjoy playing against unhealthy mechanics, so I don't find the solution to be to add more. I play Mesmer 99% of the time. Just because other classes have unhealthy mechanics, doesn't mean I want one too.

Simply put, you make a weak argument that once again goes around talking about Mirage Cloak's lack of mobility compared to normal dodge by making a false equivalency by convoluting Mirage cloak mobility with overall Mirage mobility. Additionally, you also use appeal to authority here by then invoking the name of two well known and respected members of the community with another statement that talks about a much broader topic and you try, rather falsely, attach the view of these authorities to your own. You dont directly quite them supporting the argument that Mirage Cloak has more mobility than normal dodge at all. Yet you try to claim authority through using the name. Kinda like when commercials say 5 of 10 Doctors recommend this product while the actor wears a lab coat to make themselves look like on of those Doctors.

Again, your sidelines to the actual very basic, mechanically factual argument only confuse and derail the overall thread. The point I made as an agreeing response to another poster on page 1 about Mirage Cloak's lack of a mobility component. You have now spent I dont know how many posts attempting to go around the facts and somehow make yourself sound right without ever actually refuting the facts. You're simply wrong, factually.

I am going to provide you with more definitions and examples to make this easier for you to digest and hopefully you can learn something.

Appeal to Authority:Description: Insisting that a claim is true simply because a valid authority or expert on the issue said it was true, without any other supporting evidence offered. Also see the appeal to false authority .

Logical Form:

According to person 1, who is an expert on the issue of Y, Y is true.

Therefore, Y is true.

The lesson here is that the issue is citing an authority and stating that your claim is true solely because you state the authority said so. So let me explain why this quote is not that.

Mirage is the weakest class right now, but I don't agree though that adding the 2nd dodge back is what is good and healthy for the game. I have to agree with both Helseth and Shorts (which I think is pretty easy to say are the two best Mesmer players) that adding the 2nd dodge to Mirage will break the class and is toxic for the game.
Unhealthy mechanics are not good for the game. Like most everyone else, I don't enjoy playing against unhealthy mechanics, so I don't find the solution to be to add more. I play Mesmer 99% of the time. Just because other classes have unhealthy mechanics, doesn't mean I want one too.

The part that you placed asterisks around could be considered an appeal to authority IF the sentences following did not exist. Unfortunately for you, they do. To make it easier for you to digest pretend the word BECAUSE was added before you last asterisks:

"Mirage is the weakest class right now, but I don't agree though that adding the 2nd dodge back is what is good and healthy for the game. I have to agree with both Helseth and Shorts (which I think is pretty easy to say are the two best Mesmer players) that adding the 2nd dodge to Mirage will break the class and is toxic for the game. because unhealthy mechanics are not good for the game, because like most everyone else I don't enjoy playing against unhealthy mechanics, so I don't find the solution to be to add more. I play Mesmer 99% of the time. Just because other classes have unhealthy mechanics, doesn't mean I want one too. "

Here is another example of something I said earlier in the discussion:

"Like Helseth, I think Mirage's resustain is the bigger issue for Mirage than a second dodge. Mirage has one of the worst heals in the game, it's on a long cooldown, and the only real resustain Mirage and Mesmer really has is to exit combat. The only other class that operates like that is thief, but thief can disengage (and reengage) MUCH easier than Mesmer. That is the reason Mesmer is essentially useless on maps like Skyhammer, because disengage is next to impossible."

This again IS NOT an appeal to authority. Just because you use an authority figure in an argument, it does not automatically make it an appeal to authority. If I said "Helseth said this, therefore it's true. ", then that would be an appeal to authority. Do you understand the difference? I don't want to have this conversation again.

"Additionally, you also use appeal to authority here by then invoking the name of two well known and respected members of the community with another statement that talks about a much broader topic and you try, rather falsely, attach the view of these authorities to your own. You dont directly quite them supporting the argument that Mirage Cloak has more mobility than normal dodge at all. Yet you try to claim authority through using the name. "

In response to this quote, I really don't know how many times I need to say this: This is not an argument I am making. I have stated this repeatedly. I have corrected you multiple times in stating this isn't my argument NOR at any point did I say Helseth or Shorts made this argument. Never once did I say Helseth or Shorts compared MC mobility to regular dodge. My argument was specifically addressing a second dodge. How you even came to this conclusion is well beyond me. You even quoted my post where I used their names! You know exactly what I said! You literally just quoted it! Did you even read it?! This argument has devolved into you repeatedly making things up. I am going to call you out AGAIN for blatantly lying and misrepresenting what I said.

" Simply put, you make a weak argument that once again goes around talking about Mirage Cloak's lack of mobility compared to normal dodge by making a false equivalency by convoluting Mirage cloak mobility with overall Mirage mobility."

And another lie, never tried to make an equivalency between MC and Mirage mobility. With that said, I am sorry to state that if it is too convoluted for you to understand how MC doesn't operate in a vacuum, but operates within the rest of the Mirage toolkit I can't have any sort of discussion of balance with you. It just isn't possible. Because you then lack the ability to understand Mirage or any class for that matter. It would be like me stating "Distortion on F4 isn't overpowered on Mirage, so lets give it to Revenants as well because it isn't overpowered". That is such a ridiculous statement to make because Revenant already has a strong and bloated kit that giving it distortion as well would be RIDICULOUSLY overpowered. And the way you come to this understanding is by realizing you can't look at Distortion in a vacuum but you have to compare it to the rest of the kit.

There is really no point in talking to you anymore. This discussion has reached the point of you repeatedly lying and misrepresenting things I have said. You clearly can't have an honest discussion. I am done thoughtfully responding to you.

You continue to ignore the facts and talk about things other than the substance of what I said about the threads topic. Later when I have time I may come back and actually point to all your various statements to again reiterate that you are going in circles without ever actually addressing the fact that MC lacks a mobility conponent compared to normal dodge which in effect means it lacks mobility and the ability to avoid AoE and cleaves. Frankly, I feel like you are just trying to argue for arguments sake since your first post. You seem bent on derailing the entire thread, presumably because you seem to hate Mirage as a whole and want it remain dead but are unwilling to just state that and move on. Instead, you sit here and waste everyone's time with all this sideline BS. I have other things to do and you have yet to actually counter the facts I have pointed out.

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Ronald McDonald.8165

Ronald McDonald.8165

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@Moradorin.6217 said:

@Salt Mode.3780 said:the only way for a stationary dodge work the same way as a normal dodge to evade aoe or multiple aoe is to give it superspeed instead of just a normal speed boon but honestly tht would be too strong so i dont mind it being hindered by cripple or chill

Right its ok to have a trade off like getting to attack during the dodges evade frame in exchange for being more vulnerable to certain types of attacks like ground AoE and any large radius cleaves. But ohh wait that WAS the trade off before Anet decided to ignore it and say it didnt have one, and removed a dodge, etc, etc. Meanwhile many in the community are willing to suggest it was Ok for people who decided to run condi gear and not ok for people who run power gear which ultumatly muted the classes ability to object and actually helped kill the class. Good job all. Thanks everyone! LOL

How is that a trade off when you are able to jaunt, port, or sword leap away from those things?
Mirage dodge is clearly a problem that needs to be addressed if Mirage is to have two dodges.

@Salt Mode.3780 said:the only way for a stationary dodge work the same way as a normal dodge to evade aoe or multiple aoe is to give it superspeed instead of just a normal speed boon but honestly tht would be too strong so i dont mind it being hindered by cripple or chill

Right its ok to have a trade off like getting to attack during the dodges evade frame in exchange for being more vulnerable to certain types of attacks like ground AoE and any large radius cleaves. But ohh wait that WAS the trade off before Anet decided to ignore it and say it didnt have one, and removed a dodge, etc, etc. Meanwhile many in the community are willing to suggest it was Ok for people who decided to run condi gear and not ok for people who run power gear which ultumatly muted the classes ability to object and actually helped kill the class. Good job all. Thanks everyone! LOL

How is that a trade off when you are able to jaunt, port, or sword leap away from those things? Mirage dodge is clearly a problem that needs to be addressed if Mirage is to have two dodges.

So your apparent counter argument is that Mirage should only have 1 dodge because it has utility skills that can add mobility to a build the same way that pretty much every class and elite spec has including core Mes and chrono along with thief, dd, de, guard, fb, dh, necro, reaper, scourge, rev, herald, renegade, ranger, druid, soulbeast, on and on. your point seems invalid.

I literally never said any of those things, but acting like Mirage can't get out of AOEs is kind of silly. Mirage is the weakest class right now, but I don't agree though that adding the 2nd dodge back is what is good and healthy for the game. [...]

You literally said that. =)

I literally didn't =)

I will try to elaborate more so you can understand.

After I said that "getting to attack during the dodges evade frame in exchange for being more vulnerable to certain types of attacks like ground AoE and any large radius cleave" was always a valid trade off. In other words, After I suggest, the lack or horizontal mobility from using Mirage Cloak (MC) was always a valid trade-off which you (Ronald) responded saying "
How is that a trade off
when you are able to
jaunt, port, or sword leap
away from those things?" So in effect your are asserting a counter argument that disagrees and asserts that since Mirage has mobility utilities like jaunt, port, sword leap ambush (ironic) it doesn't need the second dodge. Additionally, your statement implies that Mirage has as much ability to get out of AoE as other classes due to utility skills like jaunt, portal, etc. However, as I pointed out every class has similar mobility skills on weapons and as utility skills that can also be used in the same way, the difference is those other classes ALL get 2+ dodges that DO provide them horizontal movement when they gain evade frame, Mirage doesn't. Therefore, as I said before, you are apparently asserting that Mirage doesnt need 2 dodges because it has utility and weapon skills that add mobility. I countered by pointing out that every class has that in addition to the 2+ normal dodges which would seem to clearly make one dodge an invalid trade off in that its like a double penalty unlike any other classes trade off. Also dodge as others keep pointing out is a core ability that arguably shouldn't have ever been removed because its a core ability. Also while on the topic I will restate that that MC has a trade-off build in as much as any other elite spec even with 2 dodges. Not sure why you refuse to admit the fact, but its ok.> @Ronald McDonald.8165 said:

No, that isn't what I am implying. What I am trying to say is that on the list of reasons Mirage could use another dodge, getting out of AOEs was literally never on my list. The thought "if only I had a second dodge to get out of this AOE" has either never happened or happened so infrequently that I don't remember ever having it.

Thats funny I guess you have not played much Mirage in the last year or two. That explains your perspective on its balance, however.

I have played Condi Mirage and Condi Chrono near exclusively for the past 8 months or so. I never have played the easy classes in MMOs and never will. I have always enjoyed being the underdog and outplaying my opponents. I don't want or expect to have easy handed to me on a silver platter, but I guess that explains the difference on our perspectives for balance.

As I said earlier "I have to agree with both Helseth and Shorts (which I think is pretty easy to say are the two best Mesmer players) that adding the 2nd dodge to Mirage will break the class and is toxic for the game. Unhealthy mechanics are not good for the game. Like most everyone else, I don't enjoy playing against unhealthy mechanics, so I don't find the solution to be to add more. I play Mesmer 99% of the time. Just because other classes have unhealthy mechanics, doesn't mean I want one too."

So you see, I am very far from alone on my sentiments regarding Mirage balance. Like Helseth, I think Mirage's resustain is the bigger issue for Mirage than a second dodge. Mirage has one of the worst heals in the game, it's on a long cooldown, and the only real resustain Mirage and Mesmer really has is to exit combat. The only other class that operates like that is thief, but thief can disengage (and reengage) MUCH easier than Mesmer. That is the reason Mesmer is essentially useless on maps like Skyhammer, because disengage is next to impossible.

You seem to primarily be looking at things from a rPvP perspective which is fine. However, you arent going to run into the same issues with AoE and cleaves pvp vs wvw, still the issue I pointed out has yet to actually be adressed or refuted by you. All you have done now is quote two well known players making general comments that dont address the specifics that I am talking about that you seem to want to claim are wrong without actually bringing any relevent counter argument. You simply claim its never been an issue for you so it must not be a real thing. Which is a very poor argument especially considering how common it is for mesmers to point to the lack of mobility from MC and how it creates an obvious and unescapable downside when caught in AoE and cleave. The generalized and very old quotes are pretty pointless to me as a counter argument since it is a broad generalization that neither supports or refutes your argument or mine.

So we are talking about WvW and not PvP? That is fine. Like I said I have been playing Chronomancer and Mirage almost exclusively. That includes in both a WvW and PvP environment. You dismiss utilities to escape AOEs as being valid. I can prove that wrong very easily. Play Chronomancer in WvW. Find out how much more punishing it is to play as Chronomancer in WvW when you don't have all those utilities that Mirage has to escape cleave and AOE. A second dodge does not come close to removing you from the situations nearly as well as what you have with Mirage. As Chronomancer if you are stuck in cleave and AOE you have one single option and that is to teleport out, if that is on CD you have 0 options. As a Mirage you have many actual options. You can jaunt, you can MC, you can axe 2 for mobility, you can port with axe 3 to avoid it, you can sword ambush, you can distort. You have soooooooo much more leeway as Mirage to find yourself in those kind of situations and survive because of it's kit. Play Chronomancer and see just how wrong you are in assuming that having 2 regular dodges makes up for all of those things.

No thats just it, you are going in circles and and ignoreing that the actual argument I and others made. Which is simply that since EVERY class has mobility utilities those not a "Mesmer thing". However, Mirage cloak is. Additionally, the point is that
Mirage cloak DOESNT give the STANDARD MOBILITY that NORMAL DODGE HAS MIRAGE CLOAK HAS NO MOBILITY PROVIDED. MEANING, YOU STAY IN PLACE.
WHICH IS WHY, I SAID, MC COMES WITH LESS MOBILITY, WHICH MAKES MIRAGE MORE VULNERABLE TO AoE AND CLEAVE.
ITS NOT OPINION OR VIEW ITS FACT.
YOU ARE TRYING TO GO AROUND IT AND CLAIM ITS PLAY STYLE.
YOU ARE WRONG FACTUALLY
. YOUR OPINION DOESNT COME INTO IT.
YOUR PLAY STYLE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IT.

Rather than actually talk about the facts of the topic you keep trying to claim you are such an amazing Mesmer that you apparently dominate everyone and never die. Can we see some video? Cause I simply think your 100% full of it. You are worked hard to avoid the actual topic with generalizations, appeal to authority and a number of other fallacies.

Alright, time to take you to school. Let's dissect this nonsense bit by bit:"Rather than actually talk about the facts of the topic you keep trying to claim you are such an amazing Mesmer that you apparently dominate everyone and never die." -never once made that statement. Not a single time did I ever claim anything about my own skills as a Mesmer. All I have said is that for around the past year my time has been spent almost exclusively playing Mirage and Chronomancer. What you just did is a logical fall- oh wait, it's just called a lie.

"You are worked hard to avoid the actual topic with generalizations, appeal to authority and a number of other fallacies."This will be a fun one to pick apart. Let's start with a definition:Generalization: a broad statement or an idea that is applied to a group of people or things.I will type in caps because apparently you find that easier to read. WHAT I DID IS CALLED SPECIFICATION. I USED SPECIFIC EXAMPLES, LITERALLY LISTING THEM OUT "You can jaunt, you can MC, you can axe 2 for mobility, you can port with axe 3 to avoid it, you can sword ambush, you can distort." <-----THESE ARE SPECIFIC EXAMPLES. HENCE, NOT GENERALIZING.

In response to your appeal to authority fallacy that you are claiming. Every single competitive game is majority balanced around the top. What that means is that balance decisions are based off of how the best players are performing. The reasoning behind this is that best players have the best understanding of the game and how it works. That is why they are the best players. Just the other day someone in the mists map chat was complaining that Revenant is one of the weakest classes in the game right now in PvP, yet the top teams currently are running 2+ Revenants. They are running 2+ Revenants because they are (unlike what random guy in map chat states) one of the best classes in the game. They are winning with 2+ Revenants because they understand that. Balance choices aren't aimed for the guy who doesn't properly know how to play Revenant. Which is why this statement: "
YOUR PLAY STYLE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IT.
" is utter nonsense. There is a right way to play something and there is a wrong way to play something. As the point is clearly made by the player complaining that Revenant is weak, that is his playstyle is WRONG. It is also not an appeal to authority because I am believing what they are saying because of their reasoning behind their thoughts. Not solely because of their standings.

Let's continue our discussion on fallacies. "
Mirage cloak DOESNT give the STANDARD MOBILITY that NORMAL DODGE HAS MIRAGE CLOAK HAS NO MOBILITY PROVIDED. MEANING, YOU STAY IN PLACE.
WHICH IS WHY, I SAID, MC COMES WITH LESS MOBILITY, WHICH MAKES MIRAGE MORE VULNERABLE TO AoE AND CLEAVE.
ITS NOT OPINION OR VIEW ITS FACT.
"

This statement is what is called a FALSE EQUIVALENCY. You can make the statement MC has less mobility and therefore try to argue that MC is more vulnerable to AOE and cleave. But MC being more vulnerable to AOE and cleave DOES NOT EQUAL Mirage is more vulnerable to AOE and cleave. You can't pretend that the entirety of the Mirage kit just disappears because they have MC. That is why I use Chronomancer as a counter example. It is about as an apples to apples comparison as you can make. Showing that utility/weapon skills/etc. is just as important if not more important in many situations than having a normal dodge. And why playstyle does matter, if you are unable to properly respond to an AOE with the tools you have available that can do such, that is not the games fault that is your own.

Now all it takes is a single counter point to prove something wrong. So let's do that with this statement "
Mirage cloak DOESNT give the STANDARD MOBILITY that NORMAL DODGE HAS MIRAGE CLOAK HAS NO MOBILITY PROVIDED. MEANING, YOU STAY IN PLACE.
WHICH IS WHY, I SAID, MC COMES WITH LESS MOBILITY, WHICH MAKES MIRAGE MORE VULNERABLE TO AoE AND CLEAVE.
ITS NOT OPINION OR VIEW ITS FACT.
"

So let us take a situation where you are CC'd - knocked down, stunned, etc in AOE/cleave. If you only have regular dodges at your disposal and nothing else you are taking a massive amount of damage as you have no way to avoid it. If you only have MC at your disposal you can avoid a huge chunk of that damage by using MC. In this instance Mirage is LESS VULNERABLE TO AOE AND CLEAVE BECAUSE OF MC. This is actually one of the reasons people find MC to be such a toxic addition to the game because it allows Mirage to effectively not be punished for the mistake they made that put them in that situation.

Now what I just did there is called a counter point. It proves what you call a "FACT" to be wrong.

To me it seems like you watched a youtube video on logical fallacies and have some minor baseline understanding of them. I recommend you dive deeper and watch more youtube videos or read more about them so you can use those words properly.

Now I am not here arguing that Mirage isn't weak. It most definitely is one of the weakest classes in the game. At the same time I don't think that it is so weak that its akin to this tiny fly that that dies just because someone breathed in it's general direction. And I don't find it's ability to deal with cleave or AOE is a core problem that needs discussion or balancing around. In all honesty, we all know nothing major is going to happen to Mirage or any class for that matter. Every other class seems to slowly be getting nerfed which is an indirect buff to Mesmer. And nothing major is going to happen as the next expansion is coming soon and any sort of balance that we have right now is going to go right out the window with the new e-specs. Would I like some buffs to Mirage, hell yeah. But I also want them to be healthy for the game and focused on where it's needed.

From what bits I did read you are just off the rails in so many ways that I dont feel I need to respond. My previous statements stand. You have failed to counter my argument yet again. I feel no need even read all of this since its obvious you are just still unwilling to directly address the simple mechanical facts and admit that i and others are correct or even that the point is valid. Pretty sad. =(

It was cool, it went into how you don't know what logical fallacies are and reiterated my previous points in much more detail.

Thats funny cause I actually do understand rhetoric it was an aspect of critical thinking in school. =)

Here is an example of appeat to authority fallacy:

@Salt Mode.3780 said:the only way for a stationary dodge work the same way as a normal dodge to evade aoe or multiple aoe is to give it superspeed instead of just a normal speed boon but honestly tht would be too strong so i dont mind it being hindered by cripple or chill

Right its ok to have a trade off like getting to attack during the dodges evade frame in exchange for being more vulnerable to certain types of attacks like ground AoE and any large radius cleaves. But ohh wait that WAS the trade off before Anet decided to ignore it and say it didnt have one, and removed a dodge, etc, etc. Meanwhile many in the community are willing to suggest it was Ok for people who decided to run condi gear and not ok for people who run power gear which ultumatly muted the classes ability to object and actually helped kill the class. Good job all. Thanks everyone! LOL

How is that a trade off when you are able to jaunt, port, or sword leap away from those things? Mirage dodge is clearly a problem that needs to be addressed if Mirage is to have two dodges.

So your apparent counter argument is that Mirage should only have 1 dodge because it has utility skills that can add mobility to a build the same way that pretty much every class and elite spec has including core Mes and chrono along with thief, dd, de, guard, fb, dh, necro, reaper, scourge, rev, herald, renegade, ranger, druid, soulbeast, on and on. your point seems invalid.

I literally never said any of those things, but acting like Mirage can't get out of AOEs is kind of silly.
Mirage is the weakest class right now, but I don't agree though that adding the 2nd dodge back is what is good and healthy for the game. I have to agree with both Helseth and Shorts (which I think is pretty easy to say are the two best Mesmer players) that adding the 2nd dodge to Mirage will break the class and is toxic for the game.
Unhealthy mechanics are not good for the game. Like most everyone else, I don't enjoy playing against unhealthy mechanics, so I don't find the solution to be to add more. I play Mesmer 99% of the time. Just because other classes have unhealthy mechanics, doesn't mean I want one too.

Simply put, you make a weak argument that once again goes around talking about Mirage Cloak's lack of mobility compared to normal dodge by making a false equivalency by convoluting Mirage cloak mobility with overall Mirage mobility. Additionally, you also use appeal to authority here by then invoking the name of two well known and respected members of the community with another statement that talks about a much broader topic and you try, rather falsely, attach the view of these authorities to your own. You dont directly quite them supporting the argument that Mirage Cloak has more mobility than normal dodge at all. Yet you try to claim authority through using the name. Kinda like when commercials say 5 of 10 Doctors recommend this product while the actor wears a lab coat to make themselves look like on of those Doctors.

Again, your sidelines to the actual very basic, mechanically factual argument only confuse and derail the overall thread. The point I made as an agreeing response to another poster on page 1 about Mirage Cloak's lack of a mobility component. You have now spent I dont know how many posts attempting to go around the facts and somehow make yourself sound right without ever actually refuting the facts. You're simply wrong, factually.

I am going to provide you with more definitions and examples to make this easier for you to digest and hopefully you can learn something.

Appeal to Authority:Description: Insisting that a claim is true simply because a valid authority or expert on the issue said it was true, without any other supporting evidence offered. Also see the appeal to false authority .

Logical Form:

According to person 1, who is an expert on the issue of Y, Y is true.

Therefore, Y is true.

The lesson here is that the issue is citing an authority and stating that your claim is true solely because you state the authority said so. So let me explain why this quote is not that.

Mirage is the weakest class right now, but I don't agree though that adding the 2nd dodge back is what is good and healthy for the game. I have to agree with both Helseth and Shorts (which I think is pretty easy to say are the two best Mesmer players) that adding the 2nd dodge to Mirage will break the class and is toxic for the game.
Unhealthy mechanics are not good for the game. Like most everyone else, I don't enjoy playing against unhealthy mechanics, so I don't find the solution to be to add more. I play Mesmer 99% of the time. Just because other classes have unhealthy mechanics, doesn't mean I want one too.

The part that you placed asterisks around could be considered an appeal to authority IF the sentences following did not exist. Unfortunately for you, they do. To make it easier for you to digest pretend the word BECAUSE was added before you last asterisks:

"Mirage is the weakest class right now, but I don't agree though that adding the 2nd dodge back is what is good and healthy for the game. I have to agree with both Helseth and Shorts (which I think is pretty easy to say are the two best Mesmer players) that adding the 2nd dodge to Mirage will break the class and is toxic for the game. because unhealthy mechanics are not good for the game, because like most everyone else I don't enjoy playing against unhealthy mechanics, so I don't find the solution to be to add more. I play Mesmer 99% of the time. Just because other classes have unhealthy mechanics, doesn't mean I want one too. "

Here is another example of something I said earlier in the discussion:

"Like Helseth, I think Mirage's resustain is the bigger issue for Mirage than a second dodge. Mirage has one of the worst heals in the game, it's on a long cooldown, and the only real resustain Mirage and Mesmer really has is to exit combat. The only other class that operates like that is thief, but thief can disengage (and reengage) MUCH easier than Mesmer. That is the reason Mesmer is essentially useless on maps like Skyhammer, because disengage is next to impossible."

This again IS NOT an appeal to authority. Just because you use an authority figure in an argument, it does not automatically make it an appeal to authority. If I said "Helseth said this, therefore it's true. ", then that would be an appeal to authority. Do you understand the difference? I don't want to have this conversation again.

"Additionally, you also use appeal to authority here by then invoking the name of two well known and respected members of the community with another statement that talks about a much broader topic and you try, rather falsely, attach the view of these authorities to your own. You dont directly quite them supporting the argument that Mirage Cloak has more mobility than normal dodge at all. Yet you try to claim authority through using the name. "

In response to this quote, I really don't know how many times I need to say this: This is not an argument I am making. I have stated this repeatedly. I have corrected you multiple times in stating this isn't my argument NOR at any point did I say Helseth or Shorts made this argument. Never once did I say Helseth or Shorts compared MC mobility to regular dodge. My argument was specifically addressing a second dodge. How you even came to this conclusion is well beyond me. You even quoted my post where I used their names! You know exactly what I said! You literally just quoted it! Did you even read it?! This argument has devolved into you repeatedly making things up. I am going to call you out AGAIN for blatantly lying and misrepresenting what I said.

" Simply put, you make a weak argument that once again goes around talking about Mirage Cloak's lack of mobility compared to normal dodge by making a false equivalency by convoluting Mirage cloak mobility with overall Mirage mobility."

And another lie, never tried to make an equivalency between MC and Mirage mobility. With that said, I am sorry to state that if it is too convoluted for you to understand how MC doesn't operate in a vacuum, but operates within the rest of the Mirage toolkit I can't have any sort of discussion of balance with you. It just isn't possible. Because you then lack the ability to understand Mirage or any class for that matter. It would be like me stating "Distortion on F4 isn't overpowered on Mirage, so lets give it to Revenants as well because it isn't overpowered". That is such a ridiculous statement to make because Revenant already has a strong and bloated kit that giving it distortion as well would be RIDICULOUSLY overpowered. And the way you come to this understanding is by realizing you can't look at Distortion in a vacuum but you have to compare it to the rest of the kit.

There is really no point in talking to you anymore. This discussion has reached the point of you repeatedly lying and misrepresenting things I have said. You clearly can't have an honest discussion. I am done thoughtfully responding to you.

You continue to ignore the facts and talk about things other than the substance of what I said about the threads topic. Later when I have time I may come back and actually point to all your various statements to again reiterate that you are going in circles without ever actually addressing the fact that MC lacks a mobility conponent compared to normal dodge which in effect means it lacks mobility and the ability to avoid AoE and cleaves. Frankly, I feel like you are just trying to argue for arguments sake since your first post. You seem bent on derailing the entire thread, presumably because you seem to hate Mirage as a whole and want it remain dead but are unwilling to just state that and move on. Instead, you sit here and waste everyone's time with all this sideline BS. I have other things to do and you have yet to actually counter the facts I have pointed out.

There is really no point in talking to you anymore. This discussion has reached the point of you repeatedly lying and misrepresenting things I have said. You clearly can't have an honest discussion. I am done thoughtfully responding to you.

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Curunen.8729

Curunen.8729

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Looking at recent patches, I wouldn't be surprised if nothing happens for mesmer at all, until EoD launches.

Only question then is, how deep will any changes go. Or will they be more in the way of -50% and call it a day.

On a helpful note, I'm still of the opinion that Mirage F4 should be changed to allow the scope of improvement surrounding dodge/mc. Having normal Distortion together with what are effectively in most situations "Distortion-lite" constrains giving back much for dodge.

I mean, really all the shatters should be changed, but in the spirit of keeping things simpler and focusing on one thing...

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Leonidrex.5649

Leonidrex.5649

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@"Curunen.8729" said:Looking at recent patches, I wouldn't be surprised if nothing happens for mesmer at all, until EoD launches.

Only question then is, how deep will any changes go. Or will they be more in the way of -50% and call it a day.

On a helpful note, I'm still of the opinion that Mirage F4 should be changed to allow the scope of improvement surrounding dodge/mc. Having normal Distortion together with what are effectively in most situations "Distortion-lite" constrains giving back much for dodge.

I mean, really all the shatters should be changed, but in the spirit of keeping things simpler and focusing on one thing...

new e-spec will be broken and then they will nerf core to keep it in line.and to even be viable it has to be overpowered as shit as core mesmer gives absolutely nothing of value.btw plz give guard alacrity as new espec, so it can be the best at everything and we can finally have true meta of 5x/10x fb thx

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Twilight Tempest.7584

Twilight Tempest.7584

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@"Guilan.5760" said:I think the Mesmer is the most original and interesting class I have ever seen in any video game.The work behind it is truly inspired and the result is perfect.Bravo to the minds behind this, in my humble opinion, masterpiece of a class.

That being said, I'm so sad that it is almost completely out of the meta for WvW and for PvP.The nerf it got that removed his endurance was certainly needed, but it killed it.You guys did this to solve a problem I guess, but it created an new one, Mirage is completely dead in WvW and PvP.Please find another way to adress the same problem. A "one dodge only" has killed the class.

I think you should eventually give it back and find another good and fair way to nerf him.Of course when a class is too strong people will react strongly and you have to do something rather quickly, but now the class is dead and you can take your time to bring it back maybe ?Having 2 dodges is too important to the general mechanic and gameplay of every class. It is part of the things that are so fondamental that you cannot remove it. This nerf prooved it. Give 100 endurance back when you found a real way to nerf the mirage without killing it. Take your time but please do it !!

Are you guys maybe already working on that ? Can you give us a hint if that is a thing, or if at the moment Mesmer Mirage is satying on the bench for a long time ?I sure hope the team is working on something cause Its a shame to leave such a nice class behind !

Have a good day everyone !

Eliminating a dodge not only killed Mirage, it killed sPvP for me. I just like the unique illusionist playstyle too much. :'(

I've seen almost no one say un-ironically that removing a dodge was a good idea. Most agree it should be reverted. Some believe other nerfs would be appropriate.

Removing a dodge is kind of like how Anet slapped 300-second cool downs on several high-impact skills as though to say "we really want to nerf/rework this skill, but since we won't get to it any time soon, we'll just gut it rather than remove it entirely." Except replace the word "skill" with "e-spec" (Mirage).

Gutting entire specs is no way to maintain a dwindling population. Imagine if they cut Renegade's energy bar in half, or Scourge's life force bar in half. These would be extreme nerfs in their own right, but they still wouldn't approach the level of absurdity that is removing an entire dodge.

As discussed thoroughly over the year since this nerf, fundamentally altering a universal game-wide mechanic is a bad idea. It's jarring going between PvE and competitive modes. It makes no sense to eliminate a dodge on any class, let alone one whose dodge is its elite mechanic. Daredevil still has three dodges and enjoys several on-dodge mechanics. Removing a dodge lowers skill by obligating one to spam it off cool down to maximize endurance gain and dodge-related abilities. Meanwhile it makes one extremely vulnerable once the lone dodge is used, for obvious reasons.

Mirage wasn't even overperforming in the pre-nerf meta. It had long since fallen from its 2018 height due to a steady stream of significant nerfs long before most other professions were touched. Even the once constant "nerf mirage" complaint threads had gone silent. The one-dodge nerf was not only a bad way to nerf any spec, it's debatable whether a nerf was even needed at all.

Most seem to agree that power Mirage was never a problem leading up to the mega nerf. Condi Mirage, specifically the Chaos staff build, apparently enabled too much sustained pressure while playing defensively/passively.

As I recall, several good suggestions that would elevate skill floor and ceiling and overall game health were made by veteran Mirage players, including:

  • Shifting all or most clone damage to the player so the player must maintain LOS and/or risk getting close to opponents to deliver damage.
  • Making Ambushes generally more utility-oriented than damage-oriented, like with Sword.
  • Making Infinite Horizon baseline as the grandmaster minor trait and perhaps giving it an ICD.
  • Reducing maximum clone count--though this somewhat parallels the dodge nerf in reducing skill by limiting options and potentially encouraging more spammy shatters.

The point is there are far better, and feasible, ways to reign in c-Mirage, if that's even still necessary.

For now, I think it holds the title as the most drastically nerfed spec in the game. Like a 300-second CD skill, it desperately needs a proper rework.

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