[Talk] Lucid Singularity, people suggesting to change it...are you mad?

[Arheundel.6451]

In more than once occasion I saw this suggestion flying around and I am like :"are you guys serious?" , Lucid Singularity is the best Tempest GM trait in my opinion, good in every situation, it may make the difference between life and death when dealing with groups heavy on condis that will try to immobilize/chill you in place for days...just when you run out of all options but overloading away. 

The one time ele gets a trait not situational or attunement limited and some people want to remove it...absolute folly.

 

--Transcendent Tempest is mostly PvE oriented, hardly useful outside some niche roaming power or similar

-Elemental Bastion base heal is so low...so low that it's borderline useful only in full cleric/minstrel and used alongside a small group/zerg...otherwise it's wasted for solo-play , it was good in the beginning but after the 60% base healing nerf..it's not worth even the GM slot in my opinion

 

Lucid singularity offers the best survival tool against the worst offender for eles : Chill , it's like one of the best tool to deal with the overbearing chill spam that goes around these days ( thx to power creep, necro is more popular than ele by at least 200%), if there is one GM trait to remove/change it would be Elemental Bastion, I see little use in it, a support tempest would benefit more even from Transcendent Tempest.

Edited May 15, 2021 by Arheundel.6451

[steki.1478]

Where would you even use it? Dps and support builds already have trait for their role. The only situation I can think of is some roaming tempest which is already worse than a weaver and even then you have a heal that cleanses all you need. 

 

I do find it useful for some fractal mechanics like levers and similar which immobilize you, but it's a pretty situational trait. Waiting less for an overload is much better. You barely even need cleanses in pve. 

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

Where did you see this suggestion ? 🤔

I' would never think this is a popular suggestion/complaint ; I don't even think this is a popular trait among tempest players.

 

Lucid Singularity is interesting, but in roles ele wants to take, others tempest's GM traits are  better options and the cleanse can be recover otherwise, for healer/support or dps, and weaver is a stronger choice for roaming/mobility.

Edited May 15, 2021 by Zhaid Zhem.6508

[Arheundel.6451]

4 hours ago, Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:

Where did you see this suggestion ? 🤔

I' would never think this is a popular suggestion/complaint ; I don't even think this is a popular trait among tempest players.

 

Lucid Singularity is interesting, but in roles ele wants to take, others tempest's GM traits are  better options and the cleanse can be recover otherwise, for healer/support or dps, and weaver is a stronger choice for roaming/mobility.

For roaming, weaver is not the stronger option...it's just an alternative style for different situations, more selfish and limited to people doing mistakes trying to hug you 24/7, also weaver forces you to take arcane line to make the most out of it, not obligatory but recommended , doing so will limit your options pretty much because arcane line is in a pretty garbage state, mostly the choice you have in the master tier, with a trait that works only on specific weapons ( sword/dagger mh weaver if you want any might with that trait)

 

There is so much immobilize/chill spam coming from ganking groups that you never know from where and when they come from and if your condi clear will be ready or not. LS is basically vital to perform as tempest in roaming situations, more like a roamish/support style.

 

These days, you go about your business and out of nowhere you get loaded with 10 different condition stacks and because ele is not a necro with unholy martyr , there is no insta mass clear on ele like other professions, there will be a "rotation" to clear all that crap and LS will give you an excellent head start always, removing the most threatening condis in the game, the ones that kill you most times : immobilise-chill.

[Arheundel.6451]

5 hours ago, steki.1478 said:

Where would you even use it? Dps and support builds already have trait for their role. The only situation I can think of is some roaming tempest which is already worse than a weaver and even then you have a heal that cleanses all you need. 

 

I do find it useful for some fractal mechanics like levers and similar which immobilize you, but it's a pretty situational trait. Waiting less for an overload is much better. You barely even need cleanses in pve. 

Roaming/support tempest which is seen way more than weaver...way more, these days roaming weavers are extremely rare and for pretty good reasons, WvW it's not PvP where you can duel with people on a small circle...the vast majority of people will just range/kite you 24/7 and they can thx to 1200/1500 range weapon swap+chill/cripple spam+stealth options and more powercrept mobility than any ele build can ever afford

 

PS. I am not suggesting that weaver is worst than tempest, it's just not that much better than tempest and it plays differently , in limited instances compared to Tempest or even core ele, I find little use for anything but sword/dagger main hand weaver...there is some fringe scepter weaver there and there but mostly weaver suck outside sword, just a tad less on dagger main hand but still not as good as sword

 

Let's admit it...without sword, weaver would be pretty much garbage design tier , let's be honest

Edited May 15, 2021 by Arheundel.6451

[Jski.6180]

They need to make a GM shout and GM overload and a GM healing support. Right now we kind of lack the shout GM but we have too many overload GM.

[Downstate.4697]

You could use it as a support tempest to counter immob beast in wvw. Cant think of any other reason to run it other than playing a condi. If it reduced allies duration in 600 radius it would be good

[Arheundel.6451]

1 hour ago, Jski.6180 said:

They need to make a GM shout and GM overload and a GM healing support. Right now we kind of lack the shout GM but we have too many overload GM.

Shouts are on 30s CD average and their effects are rather lacklustre..some might..some regen...some immobilize...not like ele hasn't got access to that already, let's look at other profession shouts: reduced dmg, CC, quickness, alacrity, bazookas, rockets, spaceships....a million effects on 20s+ CD on average, these are the kind of shout utilities you can invest a whole GM trait. By comparison tempest shouts suck and definitely not worth a GM trait slot 

 

People should stop asking for "balanced choices" when other professions have been powercrept to heaven and behind, I want the same super traits on ele like I get on other professions especially necromancer and engineer 

 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unholy_Martyr

Look that! This trait alone is worth the entire water and earth line combined, especially if you add anti-toxin runes

[Jski.6180]

Just now, Arheundel.6451 said:

Shouts are on 30s CD average and their effects are rather lacklustre..some might..some regen...some immobilize...not like ele hasn't got access to that already, let's look at other profession shouts: reduced dmg, CC, quickness, alacrity, bazookas, rockets, spaceships....a million effects on 20s+ CD on average, these are the kind of shout utilities you can invest a whole GM trait. By comparison tempest shouts suck and definitely not worth a GM trait slot 

 

People should stop asking for "balanced choices" when other professions have been powercrept to heaven and behind, I want the same super traits on ele like I get on other professions especially necromancer and engineer 

 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unholy_Martyr

Look that! This trait alone is worth the entire water and earth line combined, especially if you add anti-toxin runes

If you say add alacrity to shouts they would start to have low cd with out needing a cdr trait. It would also let you play tempest as non overload witch should be a chose when playing the class.

 

I am all for the power creep to temepst weaver and core ele at this point i would be a fool not to ask for it.

[Arheundel.6451]

23 minutes ago, FrownyClown.8402 said:

You could use it as a support tempest to counter immob beast in wvw. Cant think of any other reason to run it other than playing a condi. If it reduced allies duration in 600 radius it would be good

That's the fact! It's useful at 100% when needed, the other two grandmasters are "nice additions" at best and mostly not necessary: 

 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Transcendent_Tempest

When other professions get the same effects as.....

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Twice_as_Vicious

 

A mere 2% increase for a freaking GM slot on a supposed support elite when in all truth Tempest is the worst support spec atm.

 

Condi clear for whole team? Look down here what I can do on necro...

 http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PSAMYZwzeydpB-zlTQyDA-w

I clear condis from all team like crazy with Unholy martyr + anti toxin runes, every 10s I clear 10+ condis in aoe range without effort...balance

 

What about Elemental Bastion? 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Elemental_Bastion

 

VS

 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Vigorous_Shouts 

 

Other professions have far better version of most ele traits...on the core line, making them OP once combined with specializations, this is why I love Lucid Singularity, simply because it's not the joke version of traits available to other professions. As tempest in wvw, Roaming support is the best option atm, for zerg fights, other professions offer way way more and no commander will ever pick you on tempest  over them

Edited May 15, 2021 by Arheundel.6451

[solemn.9608]

20 hours ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

For roaming, weaver is not the stronger option...it's just an alternative style for different situations, more selfish and limited to people doing mistakes trying to hug you 24/7, also weaver forces you to take arcane line to make the most out of it, not obligatory but recommended , doing so will limit your options pretty much because arcane line is in a pretty garbage state, mostly the choice you have in the master tier, with a trait that works only on specific weapons ( sword/dagger mh weaver if you want any might with that trait)

 

There is so much immobilize/chill spam coming from ganking groups that you never know from where and when they come from and if your condi clear will be ready or not. LS is basically vital to perform as tempest in roaming situations, more like a roamish/support style.

 

These days, you go about your business and out of nowhere you get loaded with 10 different condition stacks and because ele is not a necro with unholy martyr , there is no insta mass clear on ele like other professions, there will be a "rotation" to clear all that crap and LS will give you an excellent head start always, removing the most threatening condis in the game, the ones that kill you most times : immobilise-chill.

😿<--You make the kitty sad.

You don't play much roaming Weaver if you think this 😾

There is one tempest build that can _compete_ with Weaver and still underperforms in every other regard besides the lightning overload and sometimes boons. Vallun and I did like 10 duels back & forth with his LR Tempy build and my fire-air Weave-man build and it was about even, in the end. Wasn't counting but we both won/lost 40-60%. You don't need to run arcane traitline on Weaver (most of the time I'd run water or fire in place of it) and when it is necessary for certain builds it's extremely effective 😅

 

I would comment on your original subject to try to make a more meaningful contribution to this thread, but I've never ran that trait. If I need to cleanse soft-CC condis I'll just find a way to gain regen/pop an aura depending on what I'm running. If you're running support tempest you already have more than enough cleanse, and if you're roaming on tempest and can't cleanse without the aid of LS then you don't have enough cleanses in the build IMO

[Dadnir.5038]

19 hours ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

Condi clear for whole team? Look down here what I can do on necro...

 http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PSAMYZwzeydpB-zlTQyDA-w

I clear condis from all team like crazy with Unholy martyr + anti toxin runes, every 10s I clear 10+ condis in aoe range without effort...balance

 

 

If I'm not totally wrong, with anti-toxin,

1. Overload water can cleanse around 8 to 12 conditions on up to 10 allies with a CD that can be brought down to 14s... Ah, yes, it heal allies as well and grant vigor + regeneration. All that by pressing a single button.
2. Staff's cleansing rain is not that bad either cleansing up to 12 conditions on 5 allies for a 35s CD that can be brought to 22s CD.
3. Granting aura/transmuting aura can also net you quite a bit of cleansing power. I mean, enter fire attunment, transmute fire and we are already at 6 conditions cleansed on up to 5 allies with powerful aura and smothering aura. With what, a 7 second CD on core elementalist?

Like you said, "balance".

 

You probably shouldn't focus so much on what other professions can do and look at what the elementalist offer to you.

Edited May 16, 2021 by Dadnir.5038

[Arheundel.6451]

19 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

 

If I'm not totally wrong, with anti-toxin,

1. Overload water can cleanse around 8 to 12 conditions on up to 10 allies with a CD that can be brought down to 14s... Ah, yes, it heal allies as well and grant vigor + regeneration. All that by pressing a single button.
2. Staff's cleansing rain is not that bad either cleansing up to 12 conditions on 5 allies for a 35s CD that can be brought to 22s CD.
3. Granting aura/transmuting aura can also net you quite a bit of cleansing power. I mean, enter fire attunment, transmute fire and we are already at 6 conditions cleansed on up to 5 allies with powerful aura and smothering aura. With what, a 7 second CD on core elementalist?

Like you said, "balance".

 

You probably shouldn't focus so much on what other professions can do and look at what the elementalist offer to you.

Yeah?

 

1- Pray the gods if your 4s channel doesn't get interrupted and people don't run away from you  hhmm and yeah it's like 340 radius where Unholy martyr is 600 and can't be interrupted and it's still 20 kittening seconds compared to what 10s to re-enter shroud, so using your math is 8-12 condis every whaaaat? 14s CD?...it's 17s if you run arcana, in the end you run a sub-optimal build to make your moot point wrong also 'cause you don't play ele. Now on necro I cleared 24 condis within 20s while being tanky af and no sacrifices in my builds

2- 22s CD healing rain with 12 condis cleared? Do me a favour and go play an ele or at least read the wiki

3- Using core ele now...7s attunement...go and play and ele pls

Edited May 16, 2021 by Arheundel.6451

[Jski.6180]

@Dadnir.5038

@Arheundel.6451

 

Anti-toxin runes only work for more clears on the person who has the runes them self. Every thing tempest dose that is 10 target is pve only wvw and spvp is only 5 target. Only marz has a 10 target support in wvw though alacrity for one skill at pema amount.

 

Tempest is in a very bad places in this game now.

[Dadnir.5038]

2 hours ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

Yeah?

 

1- Pray the gods if your 4s channel doesn't get interrupted and people don't run away from you  hhmm and yeah it's like 340 radius where Unholy martyr is 600 and can't be interrupted and it's still 20 kittening seconds compared to what 10s to re-enter shroud, so using your math is 8-12 condis every whaaaat? 14s CD?...it's 17s if you run arcana, in the end you run a sub-optimal build to make your moot point wrong also 'cause you don't play ele. Now on necro I cleared 24 condis within 20s while being tanky af and no sacrifices in my builds

2- 22s CD healing rain with 12 condis cleared? Do me a favour and go play an ele or at least read the wiki

3- Using core ele now...7s attunement...go and play and ele pls

1- Food for your thought: alacrity actually work on overload, not on shroud CD. No sacrifice? You literally take both DM and BM,  there isn't more damage there than there is in water and earth neithere is there more defense/sustain.

2- 3 cleanse from the skill, 3 cleanse from regen + Antitoxine based on how you think it work. 3+3=6 (You know Cleansing water, right?); 6x2=12 (basic maths).

3- You're using core necro in your argument, why shouldn't I use core ele? Because you believe it's not good enough? Should we root out all valid options that people don't have the balls to use?

 

Like I said, stop looking at other professions and start to look at the elementalist. Being obsessed by what other professions can do make you blind on what the elementalist can do. You even hide yourself by ridiculing the possibility of using some of the options of the elementalist.

 

Look, let's take arcane water tempest with staff (no rune):

- Overload water: 1 condition removed per pulse + 1 condition removed per regen on pulse. 4-5 pulses (5 allies)

- Healing rain: 1 condition removed per pulse + 1 condition remove per regen on pulse. 3 pulses (5 allies)

- Evasive arcana: aoe cleanse on dodge. 1 aoe cleanse. (5 allies)

- Wash the pain away: aoe 1 condition removed on last pulse. (5 allies)

- Invigorating torrent: cleanse on granting aura to combo with the shouts (so technically 3 more aoe cleanse). (5 allies)

- Elemental attunment/cleansing wave: entering water attunment cleanse 2 conditions. (5 allies)

Scepter/dagger? Cleansing wave (2 aoe), transmute water (1 aoe from regen), water trident (1 aoe from regen). (5 allies)

NB: I'll spare you the water elite golem cleanse.

 

Want to compare with your overpowered core necromancer?

- Unholy matyr: 5 conditions aoe (5 allies).

- Well of power: 6 conditions aoe (5 allies).

- Plague signet: 1 condition (1 ally).

That's all folks!

 

If you want to, you certainly have pretty good cleanse/healing support on tempest. Is it on the level (or even above) of your core necromancer build? It certainly is.

 

Edited May 16, 2021 by Dadnir.5038

[Jski.6180]

2 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

1- Food for your thought: alacrity actually work on overload, not on shroud CD. No sacrifice? You literally take both DM and BM,  there isn't more damage there than there is in water and earth neithere is there more defense/sustain.

2- 3 cleanse from the skill, 3 cleanse from regen + Antitoxine based on how you think it work. 3+3=6 (You know Cleansing water, right?); 6x2=12 (basic maths).

3- You're using core necro in your argument, why shouldn't I use core ele? Because you believe it's not good enough? Should we root out all valid options that people don't have the balls to use?

 

Like I said, stop looking at other professions and start to look at the elementalist. Being obsessed by what other professions can do make you blind on what the elementalist can do. You even hide yourself by ridiculing the possibility of using some of the options of the elementalist.

 

Look, let's take arcane water tempest with staff:

- Overload water: 1 condition removed per pulse, 1 condition removed per regen on pulse. 4-5 pulses (5 allies)

- Healing rain: 1 condition removed per pulse, 1 condition remove per regen on pulse. 3 pulses (5 allies)

- Evasive arcana: aoe cleanse on dodge. 1 aoe cleanse. (5 allies)

- Wash the pain away: aoe 1 condition removed on last pulse. (5 allies)

- Invigorating torrent: cleanse on granting aura to combo with the shouts (so technically 3 more aoe cleanse). (5 allies)

- Elemental attunment/cleansing wave: entering water attunment cleanse 2 conditions. (5 allies)

Scepter/dagger? Cleansing wave (2 aoe), transmute water (1 aoe from regen), water trident (1 aoe from regen). (5 allies)

NB: I'll spare you the water elite golem cleanse.

 

Want to compare with your overpowered core necromancer?

- Unholy matyr: 5 conditions aoe (5 allies).

- Well of power: 6 conditions aoe (5 allies).

- Plague signet: 1 condition (1 ally).

That's all folks!

 

If you want to, you certainly have pretty good cleanse/healing support on tempest. Is it on the level (or even above) of your core necromancer build? It certainly is.

 

I am very confused antitoxine no longer works the way it use to it no longer will add to your clear out put unless your target is using antitoxne.

 

Why do you need this meany clears in any type of game play then wvw and spvp. And even having this many clears in a burst is pointless unless you can back them up with boons. Eng kits along out clears every thing ele can do as a clear and eng comes with boons to back it up that ele simple lacks.

[Dadnir.5038]

12 hours ago, Jski.6180 said:

I am very confused antitoxine no longer works the way it use to it no longer will add to your clear out put unless your target is using antitoxne.

 

Why do you need this meany clears in any type of game play then wvw and spvp. And even having this many clears in a burst is pointless unless you can back them up with boons. Eng kits along out clears every thing ele can do as a clear and eng comes with boons to back it up that ele simple lacks.

 

I'm just proving a point to someone that believe another profession have more condi cleanse than it's own. I do agree with you that the "need" for this much condi cleanse is arguable but that's not the point that I try to highlight.

 

Fact is that elementalist can specialize himself into many way, condi cleanse included, if necessary and it's in no way inferior to the result other professions can achieve.

 

Personally, I'd say that the main issue of the support elementalist is the potency of the elemental auras. There are players that have a high opinion on them but in general they lack the unique impact necessary to make players "want" to have them. Making them the tool to provide boons was a nice idea but ultimately the result isn't up to expectation. I'd rather have fire aura passively grant 100 power or 5% increased strike damage than "might when stuck" for example. In organized teamplay this would be a lot more valuable (and probably enough to push tempest into a must have support in PvE endgame). 

[Arheundel.6451]

14 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

1- Food for your thought: alacrity actually work on overload, not on shroud CD. No sacrifice? You literally take both DM and BM,  there isn't more damage there than there is in water and earth neithere is there more defense/sustain.

2- 3 cleanse from the skill, 3 cleanse from regen + Antitoxine based on how you think it work. 3+3=6 (You know Cleansing water, right?); 6x2=12 (basic maths).

3- You're using core necro in your argument, why shouldn't I use core ele? Because you believe it's not good enough? Should we root out all valid options that people don't have the balls to use?

 

Like I said, stop looking at other professions and start to look at the elementalist. Being obsessed by what other professions can do make you blind on what the elementalist can do. You even hide yourself by ridiculing the possibility of using some of the options of the elementalist.

 

Look, let's take arcane water tempest with staff (no rune):

- Overload water: 1 condition removed per pulse + 1 condition removed per regen on pulse. 4-5 pulses (5 allies)

- Healing rain: 1 condition removed per pulse + 1 condition remove per regen on pulse. 3 pulses (5 allies)

- Evasive arcana: aoe cleanse on dodge. 1 aoe cleanse. (5 allies)

- Wash the pain away: aoe 1 condition removed on last pulse. (5 allies)

- Invigorating torrent: cleanse on granting aura to combo with the shouts (so technically 3 more aoe cleanse). (5 allies)

- Elemental attunment/cleansing wave: entering water attunment cleanse 2 conditions. (5 allies)

Scepter/dagger? Cleansing wave (2 aoe), transmute water (1 aoe from regen), water trident (1 aoe from regen). (5 allies)

NB: I'll spare you the water elite golem cleanse.

 

Want to compare with your overpowered core necromancer?

- Unholy matyr: 5 conditions aoe (5 allies).

- Well of power: 6 conditions aoe (5 allies).

- Plague signet: 1 condition (1 ally).

That's all folks!

 

If you want to, you certainly have pretty good cleanse/healing support on tempest. Is it on the level (or even above) of your core necromancer build? It certainly is.

 

I ridicule your "builds" because they serve no purpose other than you trying to win the argument meanwhile I am using actual builds which are meta in game and pretty much wanted. I am using core necro because is kitten strong and meta on the other hand you try to use core ele...which makes your entire argument ..laughable.

 

As I have suggested you before go play ele or at least go read wiki, you clearly do not know how ele work ...I suggest you to go and check when regen is applied on waterload and when condi are cleared with healing rain, re-do the math about clearing condis with auras. Oh at least you got one right with Elemental attunement/cleansing wave....

 

Hmmm arcane/water tempest without aura share, trying to build your argument using fictional combos like a lego construction site without any regard for actual usability..so I'll do the math for you: 

 

let's not forget that you were outrageously wrong about CD for all the skills you mentioned

-Healing rain(treated) 28s CD

-Overload water (treated) 17s CD

-All mentioned water traits (treated) 8s CD

-Auras are on average 25s CD, while ha you're using staff so 1 aura at 30s CD, plsu auras from overload that's 17s CD each plus 6s to wait for overload each time and that's a 23s CD wait to get an aura out of each overload

 

Now if we add everything roughly......28+17+8+25+23= 101/5 =20.2

 

-On average you wait 20s to apply any condi removal and let's not mention the fact that we're talking about pulse and not insta pull like necro..I'll let it slide out of consideration 

 

Meanwhile on core necro alone( won't use scourge as again I am trying to make a point and not win the argument which I could have won from the start by mentioning support blood scourge which completely demolish any argument you may have)

 

Let me teach about the class you play and that I used for less than 120 hrs

 

-Unholy martyr is 5 condi cleared from each ally for a maximum of 5 allies in 1200 range meaning that on core necro while pushing with my zerg I "eat" up to 12 condis every 10s from close allies

 

- I cannot be interrupted

-I have double your cleaning radius on tempest

-I am super tanky

-I don't need to channel anything, becoming a huge visible target

 

With Unholy martyr alone I do 2x your cleansing job 3x easier and safely......this is why necro is meta everywhere and tempest is not...food for thought 

[Arheundel.6451]

15 hours ago, Jski.6180 said:

I am very confused antitoxine no longer works the way it use to it no longer will add to your clear out put unless your target is using antitoxne.

 

Why do you need this meany clears in any type of game play then wvw and spvp. And even having this many clears in a burst is pointless unless you can back them up with boons. Eng kits along out clears every thing ele can do as a clear and eng comes with boons to back it up that ele simple lacks.

I did not start this whole conversation about cleansing, I only mentioned a single trait to show how badly UP are ele GM traits respect to others and then people try to talk me out of it like ele is meta anywhere....from WvW to PvP and now even PvE..nobody goes out of their way to ask for an ele in anything, every tag or guild recruiting is asking for scourge/scrappers and firebrand ...

 

 

[Arheundel.6451]

19 hours ago, solemn.9608 said:

😿<--You make the kitty sad.

You don't play much roaming Weaver if you think this 😾

There is one tempest build that can _compete_ with Weaver and still underperforms in every other regard besides the lightning overload and sometimes boons. Vallun and I did like 10 duels back & forth with his LR Tempy build and my fire-air Weave-man build and it was about even, in the end. Wasn't counting but we both won/lost 40-60%. You don't need to run arcane traitline on Weaver (most of the time I'd run water or fire in place of it) and when it is necessary for certain builds it's extremely effective 😅

 

I would comment on your original subject to try to make a more meaningful contribution to this thread, but I've never ran that trait. If I need to cleanse soft-CC condis I'll just find a way to gain regen/pop an aura depending on what I'm running. If you're running support tempest you already have more than enough cleanse, and if you're roaming on tempest and can't cleanse without the aid of LS then you don't have enough cleanses in the build IMO

Well I did say that arcane not obligatory just recommended, this thread is about explaining the usefulness of the trait to those claiming it's garbage, it's simply more useful than the other two GM trait which people simply resigned themselves to use...while never considering the powercreept state of other professions GM traits.

 

If people stop and try to play other professions they will see how they get to play with some broken and unfair mechanic/traits, I get GM traits on ranger and necro doing a dozen things at the same time with no ICD...pretty BS balance to be honest

[Dadnir.5038]

17 minutes ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

I ridicule your "builds" because they serve no purpose other than you trying to win the argument meanwhile I am using actual builds which are meta in game and pretty much wanted. I am using core necro because is kitten strong and meta on the other hand you try to use core ele...which makes your entire argument ..laughable.

 

 

That's your issue, you favor empyric results over theoretical results which make your claims suggestive and not objective when you talk about balance.

 

Quote

 

let's not forget that you were outrageously wrong about CD for all the skills you mentioned

-Healing rain(treated) 28s CD

-Overload water (treated) 17s CD

-All mentioned water traits (treated) 8s CD

-Auras are on average 25s CD, while ha you're using staff so 1 aura at 30s CD, plsu auras from overload that's 17s CD each plus 6s to wait for overload each time and that's a 23s CD wait to get an aura out of each overload

 

Now if we add everything roughly......28+17+8+25+23= 101/5 =20.2

 

-On average you wait 20s to apply any condi removal and let's not mention the fact that we're talking about pulse and not insta pull like necro..I'll let it slide out of consideration 

 

 

You should read things thoroughly. Elementalist's CD are affected by Alacrity not shroud CD which mean that, indeed, the skills CD that I listed can go down to the value I gave You.

 

Your calcul is absolutely hillarious thought and the conclusion you drw from it is priceless. If I draw the same calcul for the necromancer (in a WvW environment):

- Unholy martyr: 10s

- Well of power: 40s (Hey I'm generous let's go with perma alacrity and a 32s CD)

 

"Now if we add everything roughly... 10+32= 42. 42/2= 21s"

 

Thus, following your logic, I can say that on average to apply any condition removal the necromancer wait 21s, surprisingly making the 20s average CD of the elementalist better.

 

I hope you understand how wrong this logic is, I really do.

 

The intelligent way to calcul this is to look at the condition cleanse potential over 60s.

 

The necromancer's math is easy:

- 6 use of shroud (assuming you flash shroud)

- and 2 use of well of power.

This give use: 6x5 + 2x6 = 42 conditions cleanse over a minute.

For scourge:

- 4 Shroud (yeah 20s CD at best with alacrity in WvW)

- 2 well of power

- 8 nefarious favor

- 8 sand cascade

- 3 manifest sand shade (with sand savant for an actual group effect)

- 3 sand flare

- 3 sand swell

This give us: 4x5 + 2x6 + 8x2 + 8 + 3 + 3 + 3 = 65 conditions cleansed over a minute.

 

The staff arcane/water/tempest potential is a bit trickier:

- 3 healing rain

- 3 overload water

- 4 enter water attunment (I purposedly give a low number here)

- 6 dodge in water attunment

- 3 use of 4 different shouts granting aura.

- ... etc. (I'm puposedly not listing every group cleanse)

This give us: 3x6 + 3x5 + 4x2 + 6 + 3x4 = 59 conditions cleansed over a minute (almost 1 per second).
 

Quote

 

Let me teach about the class you play and that I used for less than 120 hrs

 

-Unholy martyr is 5 condi cleared from each ally for a maximum of 5 allies in 1200 range meaning that on core necro while pushing with my zerg I "eat" up to 12 condis every 10s from close allies

 

 

You probably mean 10 with the assumption that antitoxin indeed double the draw on each ally affected (However you put it, 5x2=10 not 12). And, again, plague signet only draw a single condition from a single ally (In case you didn't know).

 

Quote

 

- I cannot be interrupted

-I have double your cleaning radius on tempest

-I am super tanky

-I don't need to channel anything, becoming a huge visible target

 

With Unholy martyr alone I do 2x your cleansing job 3x easier and safely......this is why necro is meta everywhere and tempest is not...food for thought 

 

 

Oh, I'm sure you do, you litterally build for it, taking every single traitline to be tanky whereas you despise the traitlines that would make you tanky as an elementalist. But, this is not the point, the point is that balance wise the elementalist have more than the potential to go toe to toes with this build of yours.

 

You unearth the full condi cleanse potential of the necromancer but refuse to even consider unearthing the full condi cleanse potential of the elementalist yet insist on comparing both. It mean that you're comparing apple and orange.

 

Worse, let's put ourself into a thieve's shoes whose only way to cleanse conditions on ally is to find a ranger and use steal on him to get healing seed. Theoretically, that put the thief close to the necromancer condition cleanse output on 5 ally if you exclude well of power, but you'd need the star to align. Would a thief complain about this "unfairness"? Nope, a thief know that each profession have it's strength and weakness and cleansing condition on a group isn't one of it's strength, nor does he want it. How would a thief react if another profession were to come and say "Necro is better at condi cleanse a group than me, it's unfair. I have twice the amount of condi cleanse skill/trait for groups than him but I refuse to use them because they are bad and nobody use them"?

[Arheundel.6451]

1 hour ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

 

That's your issue, you favor empyric results over theoretical results which make your claims suggestive and not objective when you talk about balance.

 

 

You should read things thoroughly. Elementalist's CD are affected by Alacrity not shroud CD which mean that, indeed, the skills CD that I listed can go down to the value I gave You.

 

Your calcul is absolutely hillarious thought and the conclusion you drw from it is priceless. If I draw the same calcul for the necromancer (in a WvW environment):

- Unholy martyr: 10s

- Well of power: 40s (Hey I'm generous let's go with perma alacrity and a 32s CD)

 

"Now if we add everything roughly... 10+32= 42. 42/2= 21s"

 

Thus, following your logic, I can say that on average to apply any condition removal the necromancer wait 21s, surprisingly making the 20s average CD of the elementalist better.

 

I hope you understand how wrong this logic is, I really do.

 

The intelligent way to calcul this is to look at the condition cleanse potential over 60s.

 

The necromancer's math is easy:

- 6 use of shroud (assuming you flash shroud)

- and 2 use of well of power.

This give use: 6x5 + 2x6 = 42 conditions cleanse over a minute.

For scourge:

- 4 Shroud (yeah 20s CD at best with alacrity in WvW)

- 2 well of power

- 8 nefarious favor

- 8 sand cascade

- 3 manifest sand shade (with sand savant for an actual group effect)

- 3 sand flare

- 3 sand swell

This give us: 4x5 + 2x6 + 8x2 + 8 + 3 + 3 + 3 = 65 conditions cleansed over a minute.

 

The staff arcane/water/tempest potential is a bit trickier:

- 3 healing rain

- 3 overload water

- 4 enter water attunment (I purposedly give a low number here)

- 6 dodge in water attunment

- 3 use of 4 different shouts granting aura.

- ... etc. (I'm puposedly not listing every group cleanse)

This give us: 3x6 + 3x5 + 4x2 + 6 + 3x4 = 59 conditions cleansed over a minute (almost 1 per second).
 

 

You probably mean 10 with the assumption that antitoxin indeed double the draw on each ally affected (However you put it, 5x2=10 not 12). And, again, plague signet only draw a single condition from a single ally (In case you didn't know).

 

 

Oh, I'm sure you do, you litterally build for it, taking every single traitline to be tanky whereas you despise the traitlines that would make you tanky as an elementalist. But, this is not the point, the point is that balance wise the elementalist have more than the potential to go toe to toes with this build of yours.

 

You unearth the full condi cleanse potential of the necromancer but refuse to even consider unearthing the full condi cleanse potential of the elementalist yet insist on comparing both. It mean that you're comparing apple and orange.

 

Worse, let's put ourself into a thieve's shoes whose only way to cleanse conditions on ally is to find a ranger and use steal on him to get healing seed. Theoretically, that put the thief close to the necromancer condition cleanse output on 5 ally if you exclude well of power, but you'd need the star to align. Would a thief complain about this "unfairness"? Nope, a thief know that each profession have it's strength and weakness and cleansing condition on a group isn't one of it's strength, nor does he want it. How would a thief react if another profession were to come and say "Necro is better at condi cleanse a group than me, it's unfair. I have twice the amount of condi cleanse skill/trait for groups than him but I refuse to use them because they are bad and nobody use them"?

The intelligent way is to make a comparative analysis using same factors and not every single one of them in attempt to force different results...otherwise I can simply add Glyph to the average and reach 32s for aoe condi clear on ele

 

1-Nobody in game cares about your theoretical build crafting....

Because results are not built on forum theory...

 

2- your entire argument is built on "what if" and all the stars aligning ....

There is no tempest here...no arcana staff water theoretical forum build

 

These videos should be enough to kill this pointless drama filled argument of yours, if you want to keep going, do please come with videos of you playing this fabled build of yours and zerg/teams accepting multiple version of it.

 

Your class is OP, there is no denying it, there is no hiding and you can come here with all the theoretical talk that you want....reality won't change

 

P.S

Because you think of being so smart.....to my previous estimate of 101s I can add glyph at 90s CD for an average of 32s, over 1m in real fight I would still far outclass you on that theoretical build of you.

It seems you fail to understand the concept of PULSE cleansing against insta mass cleansing, it's why I suggested that you don't know what you're talking about

Arithmetic average is extremely sensitive to extreme values. Imagine a data set of 4, 5, 6, 7, and 8,578. The sum of the five numbers is 8,600 and the mean is 1,720 – which doesn’t tell us anything useful about the level of the individual numbers.

Therefore, arithmetic average is not the best measure to use with data sets containing a few extreme values or with more dispersed (volatile) data sets in general. Median can be a better alternative in such cases.

 

Edited May 17, 2021 by Arheundel.6451

[solemn.9608]

19 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

1- Food for your thought: alacrity actually work on overload, not on shroud CD. No sacrifice? You literally take both DM and BM,  there isn't more damage there than there is in water and earth neithere is there more defense/sustain.

2- 3 cleanse from the skill, 3 cleanse from regen + Antitoxine based on how you think it work. 3+3=6 (You know Cleansing water, right?); 6x2=12 (basic maths).

3- You're using core necro in your argument, why shouldn't I use core ele? Because you believe it's not good enough? Should we root out all valid options that people don't have the balls to use?

 

Like I said, stop looking at other professions and start to look at the elementalist. Being obsessed by what other professions can do make you blind on what the elementalist can do. You even hide yourself by ridiculing the possibility of using some of the options of the elementalist.

 

Look, let's take arcane water tempest with staff (no rune):

- Overload water: 1 condition removed per pulse + 1 condition removed per regen on pulse. 4-5 pulses (5 allies)

- Healing rain: 1 condition removed per pulse + 1 condition remove per regen on pulse. 3 pulses (5 allies)

- Evasive arcana: aoe cleanse on dodge. 1 aoe cleanse. (5 allies)

- Wash the pain away: aoe 1 condition removed on last pulse. (5 allies)

- Invigorating torrent: cleanse on granting aura to combo with the shouts (so technically 3 more aoe cleanse). (5 allies)

- Elemental attunment/cleansing wave: entering water attunment cleanse 2 conditions. (5 allies)

Scepter/dagger? Cleansing wave (2 aoe), transmute water (1 aoe from regen), water trident (1 aoe from regen). (5 allies)

NB: I'll spare you the water elite golem cleanse.

 

Want to compare with your overpowered core necromancer?

- Unholy matyr: 5 conditions aoe (5 allies).

- Well of power: 6 conditions aoe (5 allies).

- Plague signet: 1 condition (1 ally).

That's all folks!

 

If you want to, you certainly have pretty good cleanse/healing support on tempest. Is it on the level (or even above) of your core necromancer build? It certainly is.

 

Loving this back-and-forth you guys are doing but if you don't mind me interrupting for one moment -

 

IMO you'll have better cleanses if you just run aura share in water + smothering auras in fire. So many auras you almost don't run out of them, plenty of cleanses for all alongside the raw healing. Haven't done any math on it but I rarely get out-cleansed in arcdps alongside other supports, so I assume it's pretty kitten good.

A video I made on this build if you're interested

 

Edited May 17, 2021 by solemn.9608

[Dadnir.5038]

16 minutes ago, solemn.9608 said:

Loving this back-and-forth you guys are doing but if you don't mind me interrupting for one moment -

 

IMO you'll have better cleanses if you just run aura share in water + smothering auras in fire. So many auras you almost don't run out of them, plenty of cleanses for all alongside the raw healing. Haven't done any math on it but I rarely get out-cleansed in arcdps alongside other supports, so I assume it's pretty kitten good.

A video I made on this build if you're interested

 

 

Well, it support my point so I got no problem with that...

[Dadnir.5038]

@Arheundel.6451

I'm afraid I won't entertain yourself more on this subject. You fail to understand that the math formula you used don't prove any point just like you fail to understand that were the core necromancer offer few mean to cleanse a group, the elementalist offer many. You could say that it's a fight of quality over quantity. Both philosophy of quality and quantity have advantage and disadvantage that make them valid options, whether you like it or not.

 

NB.: The whole meta thing is made throught theoretical build crafting (in all game modes). After that it's a choice on what's "optimal" within a "whole". Today people mainly use necromancer because they can take a beating and have good aoe. Tomorow, people might use elementalist because they no longer need to be able to take a beating to make the most of their aoes thanks to retal being changed into resolve. (Well, but that's projecting oneself a bit, that demand efforts that theory crafter will do, then spread and make people gradually accept as "fact". This is the life of a "meta").