Class switching before match start

[razaelll.8324]

9 minutes ago, Locuz.2651 said:

 

The matchmaking is meant to match equally skilled players/teams against eachother. It has nothing to do with classes. 

 

 

Class swapping is 100% needed to create balanced matchups. So ppl can swap when there are 3 supports in your team or 3 thieves. Or no supports or roamers. 

 

The only issue i see is double scourge or core + scourge on relatively small maps. But thats mostly a balance issue. Al other class stacking options dont give advantages at all. 

 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/PvP_Matchmaking_Algorithm

 

From the algorithm published you can see that classes are taken into consideration and the system is trying to prevent class stacking when that is possible.

 

 

About the 3 support they still can change their builds. Support is not a class but a build.

 

Edited May 30, 2021 by razaelll.8324

[Locuz.2651]

7 minutes ago, razaelll.8324 said:

About the 3 support they still can change there builds.

 

So what if we dont have classes that have (good) support builds?  Or no proper roaming builds. This "fix" will create more problems than it tries to fix.  

 

Its a really really bad suggestion to fix a non issue. I play 100s of games each season (15k total). I cant recall any moment where i saw ppl going from a nicely mixed team and swapping to class stack to create "an op situation". 

 

As i said even now there are very few situations where class stacking is actually good for your team/matchup. Only scourge on small maps comes to mind. 

 

Can you describe any other class or spec where this could be an issue.?

Edited May 30, 2021 by Locuz.2651

[razaelll.8324]

42 minutes ago, Locuz.2651 said:

 

So what if we dont have classes that have (good) support builds?  Or no proper roaming builds. This "fix" will create more problems than it tries to fix.  

 

Its a really really bad suggestion to fix a non issue. I play 100s of games each season (15k total). I cant recall any moment where i saw ppl going from a nicely mixed team and swapping to class stack to create "an op situation". 

 

As i said even now there are very few situations where class stacking is actually good for your team/matchup. Only scourge on small maps comes to mind. 

 

Can you describe any other class or spec where this could be an issue.?

Depending on the map and the enemy team , stacking professions (different than scourge is also used)  i often see team stacking prot holo to bunker nodes or thiefs for higher mobility and out rotating the enemy team .

Also my main concern is the following. If you read the algorithm namely:

"The second phase of the algorithm is the scoring phase. During this phase each player is scored against every other player being considered for matchmaking. The metrics used during this phase include: rating, rank, games played, party size, profession, and dishonor. With each metric the system is looking for players that are as close as possible to the average of those already selected. The system also attempts to keep the number of duplicate professions to a minimum."

 

And below this, the algorythm is giving taking points based on profession stacked and so on, which means that after the algorithm scored your team based on the composition which you have currently it place you against a team with composition with similar score to yours, but when you change your class after that is done it means that your score is now different and its not relevant anymore (Example if your team has 2 mesmers the algorithm is trying to place your against another team with 2 mesmers). in this case you can slightly manipulate the match by queening  as underperforming class (warrior for example) and then switching to overperforming one (necro for example). Ofcourse this problem is also due to balance issue , but then if class swaping is allowed after the algorithm finished his job which basically make a part of that algorithm irrelevant then why do you even use that algorithm in first place. 
 

Quote

This "fix" will create more problems than it tries to fix

This is just a suggestion mate , and i am glad to have a discussion about it. Thank you for taking your time to response i appreciate it!

Edited May 30, 2021 by razaelll.8324

[Locuz.2651]

1 hour ago, razaelll.8324 said:

Depending on the map and the enemy team , stacking professions (different than scourge is also used)  i often see team stacking prot holo to bunker nodes or thiefs for higher mobility and out rotating the enemy team .

 

So you enter a game where you see one thief in the opposing team....and then they swap to 2. And then youre like...omg such an OP advantage?

 

First of all i never saw this happen in 15k games. I saw ppl swap away from thief if their team had 2 to begin with. But never the other way around.  U know why? Since stacking two thieves doesnt give your team an advantage. 

 

Swapping to 2 prot holos doenst give your team a real edge either. Lets say a team plays:

 

DP thief , core support guard, scourge, prot holo and renegade. Swapping any none prot holo for another prot holo would be a downgrade. 

 

Youre not giving up your support...

Youre not swapping out scourge since they they are pretty much the best teamfighter in your team. 

Swapping out renegade or thief would mean you lose a lot of mobility and burst. 

 

Lets say u swap the renegade for an extra holo. Where would the extra holo go? Would you play 3 points with the 2 holos on sides? Since your team is super immobile youll be super vulnerable for being outrotated / snowballed. Or would u use one of the holos as teamfighter (which is not his forte)? 

 

The other way around happens pretty much every single game. Where at least one of the teams team has too many supports, or no supports at all, or not enough enough sustain or no roamers etc etc. 

 

The difference between classes (of the same role) isnt big enough to make it a huge benefit to stack classes. A fireweaver or good BM ranger can be just as good or even better in some cases than prot holos on sidenodes. Its situational and depending on matchups but still. 

 

Edited May 30, 2021 by Locuz.2651

[razaelll.8324]

34 minutes ago, Locuz.2651 said:

 

So you enter a game where you see one thief in the opposing team....and then they swap to 2. And then youre like...omg such an OP advantage?

 

First of all i never saw this happen in 15k games. I saw ppl swap away from thief if their team had 2 to begin with. But never the other way around.  U know why? Since stacking two thieves doesnt give your team an advantage. 

 

Swapping to 2 prot holos doenst give your team a real edge either. Lets say a team plays:

 

DP thief , core support guard, scourge, prot holo and renegade. Swapping any none prot holo for another prot holo would be a downgrade. 

 

Youre not giving up your support...

Youre not swapping out scourge since they they are pretty much the best teamfighter in your team. 

Swapping out renegade or thief would mean you lose a lot of mobility and burst. 

 

Lets say u swap the renegade for an extra holo. Where would the extra holo go? Would you play 3 points with the 2 holos on sides? Since your team is super immobile youll be super vulnerable for being outrotated / snowballed. Or would u use one of the holos as teamfighter (which is not his forte)? 

 

The other way around happens pretty much every single game. Where at least one of the teams team has too many supports, or no supports at all, or not enough enough sustain or no roamers etc etc. 

 

The difference between classes (of the same role) isnt big enough to make it a huge benefit to stack classes. A fireweaver or good BM ranger can be just as good or even better in some cases than prot holos on sidenodes. Its situational and depending on matchups but still. 

 

Where exactly i did i said it is a OP advantage? I said it depends on the map and the enemy team.

 

And i also said that my main concern is the possibility for matching system manipulating.

Edited May 30, 2021 by razaelll.8324

[Locuz.2651]

6 minutes ago, razaelll.8324 said:

And i also said that my main concern is the possibility for matching system manipulating.

 

But you have no idea what the impact on matchmaking playing xyz has. 

 

I think its related to just wanting to split the classes evenly per team. While the system doesnt consider specific roles. So the system itself might give you unbalanced matchups to begin with. Something you need to adjust by swapping to avoid lobsided matchups. 

 

So i think its not about Anet attaching a label to classes in terms of strength and attaching a matchmaking  penalty to that.  But more about getting a healthy mix of classes per team.  

 

If we look at facts...any streamvod of a GW2 player. Did you see any stream or vod where this mightve been abused/ manipulated? I dont.  Feel free to prove me wrong by posting vods. 

 

[razaelll.8324]

28 minutes ago, Locuz.2651 said:

 

But you have no idea what the impact on matchmaking playing xyz has. 

 

I think its related to just wanting to split the classes evenly per team. While the system doesnt consider specific roles. So the system itself might give you unbalanced matchups to begin with. Something you need to adjust by swapping to avoid lobsided matchups. 

 

So i think its not about Anet attaching a label to classes in terms of strength and attaching a matchmaking  penalty to that.  But more about getting a healthy mix of classes per team.  

 

If we look at facts...any streamvod of a GW2 player. Did you see any stream or vod where this mightve been abused/ manipulated? I dont.  Feel free to prove me wrong by posting vods. 

 

Exactly for that reason i made the post , because it happens to me and thats why I express my concerns here

I cannot post a video to prove  that  team X won because player A switched from Class 1 to class 2 because i cannot make same match with the same teams but without the swap so you know that such video cannot be provided.

What i am saying is that the match system is trying to match the classes in every team so if team A has 2 mesmers it tries to make team b also have 2 mesmers and then 1 of the mesmers change class which means that it shunts the match making system. Read how the match making system is working and you will see that the system is giving relative score to every player against every other based on class, games played and so on. And by swaping class you directly make that irrelevant and the whole algorithm and its efforts to balance the teams  are then useless. 

Edit: I understand your concern about not being able to swap at all which might lead to unwinable matches, that's why in the discussion we talked that maybe the matchmaking system should be changed to take in account the class changing.

Edited May 30, 2021 by razaelll.8324

[Locuz.2651]

42 minutes ago, razaelll.8324 said:

Exactly for that reason i made the post , because it happens to me and thats why I express my concerns here

 

If its common thing and itw as obvious it would be relatively easy to find proof online. Twitch has 1000s of hours of GW2 pvp vods. And how do you know it happened to you? Unless you know the details of every single player within that specific match. How many games they played, what their exact MMR is etc. 

 

On top of that you have nfc what the impact is of playing a specific class on your MMR. Youre just guessing.

 

42 minutes ago, razaelll.8324 said:

And by swaping class you directly make that irrelevant and the whole algorithm and its efforts to balance the teams  are then useless. 

 

But maybe the algorythme is counterproductive:

 

- Placing core guards in seperate teams eventho 1 core guard is support and the other DPS.   Meanwhile swapping that DPS guard with a support ele. So 1 team has 2 dps and the other 2 support.

- Having 1 team with next to no sustain (very common). 

 

Without the possibilitie to swap 90% of the games will be lobsided shitshows.  All 500-50 games.  I had games vs top players like drazeh and boyce where we won hard and easily simply because they lacked sustain and didnt swap to something with more sustain. 

 

It will make the game 10 times worse than it is now and not worth playing at all anymore.  All to fix an issue that isnt even there. 

Edited May 30, 2021 by Locuz.2651

[razaelll.8324]

34 minutes ago, Locuz.2651 said:

 

If its common thing and itw as obvious it would be relatively easy to find proof online. Twitch has 1000s of hours of GW2 pvp vods. And how do you know it happened to you? Unless you know the details of every single player within that specific match. How many games they played, what their exact MMR is etc. 

 

On top of that you have nfc what the impact is of playing a specific class on your MMR. Youre just guessing.

 

 

But maybe the algorythme is counterproductive:

 

- Placing core guards in seperate teams eventho 1 core guard is support and the other DPS.   Meanwhile swapping that DPS guard with a support ele. So 1 team has 2 dps and the other 2 support.

- Having 1 team with next to no sustain (very common). 

 

Without the possibilitie to swap 90% of the games will be lobsided shitshows.  All 500-50 games. 

 

It will make the game 10 times worse than it is now and not worth playing at all anymore.  All to fix an issue that isnt even there. 

It looks like this leads to nowhere. I repeat my self for 3-rd time that builds still can be changed. 

The problem with the video is that you need the same exact teams with same exact players so that Twitch videos with not prove anything  and i explained quite clearly how you match manipulate it i will do it 1 last time for you.

The matchmaking system is making team A which has 2 mesmers in it then it makes team B with again 2 mesmers in it. Then 1 of the mesmers from team A switch to another class, which directly makes the team unbalanced and the whole effort of trying to match team B to team A pointless.

What i experience very often is the following , the match making system match us perfectly with mirror classes in each team then 1 (or maybe more) of the enemy players switch class which directly affects the balance which the matchmaking system achieved. 

Another example duo queue as double warriors then the match making system tries to match that so it makes enemy team with 2 warriors also, then the duo switch to the counter of warriors just before the match starts (so you cant even see what they are switching to and cant  adapt to the change) and that is how you can abuse the matchmaking system which is happening very often. 
 

Quote

 All to fix an issue that isnt even there. 

The issue is there and its pretty obvious, just the solution which i suggest is not the best one because it can lead to another problem and thats the discussion all about.

Edited May 30, 2021 by razaelll.8324

[Locuz.2651]

34 minutes ago, razaelll.8324 said:

It looks like this leads to nowhere.

 

One of the key elerments that prefent ppl from improving is that they shift the blame. This entire thread is a prime example of that.  "I lost it must be because ....."

 

34 minutes ago, razaelll.8324 said:

The matchmaking system is making team A which has 2 mesmers in it then it makes team B with again 2 mesmers in it. Then 1 of the mesmers from team A switch to another class, which directly makes the team unbalanced and the whole effort of trying to match team B to team A pointless.

 

Youre pretending that matchmaking its purely based on classes while it isnt. MMR is the key component.  

 

How do you know what weight playing certain classes carries when it comes to MMR? Maybe its next to nothing and just used to shuffle equal MMR players around between teams after 10 ppl are found to start a match? This is the most likely way it works.

 

You dont seem to get it. Swapping is to prefent unbalanced matches....not the other way around. Without swapping 99% of all games will be one sided shtshows. It will make GW2 pvp 10 times worse than it is now and totally not worth playing.  

 

If they ever implemented this it will make most if not all pvp veterans quit. Pvp will be just for dailies players only. 

 

34 minutes ago, razaelll.8324 said:

What i experienced is the following in match the match making system match us perfectly with mirror classes in each team then 1 of the enemy players switch class which directly affects the balance which the matchmaking system achieved. 

 

So lets say the system found 10 ppl that all ended up being support. You would be like ...omg perfect balanced matchmaking. That will be fun right all support teams?

 

For a fun matchup to be played you need a balanced setup aswell. With some support, a brawler a sidenoder a roamer etc. The system doenst do that. I had plenty of games incl vs top players where the matchup was purely decided since they lacked sustain (while classes where evenly divided).  So we won due to the shuffle of the system AND since the opponents didnt swap to the classes that where better vs us. 

 

 

 

Edited May 30, 2021 by Locuz.2651

[razaelll.8324]

33 minutes ago, Locuz.2651 said:

 

One of the key elerments that prefent ppl from improving is that they shift the blame. This entire thread is a prime example of that.  "I lost it must be because ....."

 

 

Youre pretending that matchmaking its purely based on classes while it isnt. MMR is the key component.  

 

How do you know what weight playing certain classes carries when it comes to MMR? Maybe its next to nothing and just used to shuffle equal MMR players around between teams after 10 ppl are found to start a match? This is the most likely way it works.

 

You dont seem to get it. Swapping is to prefent unbalanced matches....not the other way around. Without swapping 99% of all games will be one sided shtshows. It will make GW2 pvp 10 times worse than it is now and totally not worth playing.  

 

If they ever implemented this it will make most if not all pvp veterans quit. Pvp will be just for dailies players only. 

 

 

So lets say the system found 10 ppl that all ended up being support. You would be like ...omg perfect balanced matchmaking. That will be fun right all support teams?

 

For a fun matchup to be played you need a balanced setup aswell. With some support, a brawler a sidenoder a roamer etc. The system doenst do that. I had plenty of games incl vs top players where the matchup was purely decided since they lacked sustain (while classes where evenly divided).  So we won due to the shuffle of the system AND since the opponents didnt swap to the classes that where better vs us. 

 

 

 

 

Quote

One of the key elerments that prefent ppl from improving is that they shift the blame. This entire thread is a prime example of that.  "I lost it must be because ....."

I am not blaming anything. Am i not allowed to share something which concerns me without getting the " you blame the game because your are noob " argument ...


 

Quote

You dont seem to get it. Swapping is to prefent unbalanced matches....not the other way around. Without swapping 99% of all games will be one sided shtshows. It will make GW2 pvp 10 times worse than it is now and totally not worth playing. 

You seems that you dont get it. First you dont know that the game will be worse (if you do give me a prove please) and second the matchmakign system 99% of the time (from my experiance) is making very good balance between the teams and the PLAYERS are the one which ruins that balance by switching classes and making the matches onesided. Because you can class change after the matchmaking is done then the whole consideration of classes is pointless and the matchmaking can just use the MMR and nothing more. 

By balance in teams i mean class balance only.

I gave you examples how to manipulate the system and why in my opinion that is an issue if you dont agree with me that is fine i am not forcing you, but please dont start with the personal attacks either keep the conversation civil or just lets end it with the conclusion the we just disagree with each other.

So lets say the system found 10 ppl that all ended up being support. You would be like ...omg perfect balanced matchmaking. That will be fun right all support teams?

 

Quote

For a fun matchup to be played you need a balanced setup aswell. With some support, a brawler a sidenoder a roamer etc. The system doenst do that. I had plenty of games incl vs top players where the matchup was purely decided since they lacked sustain (while classes where evenly divided).  So we won due to the shuffle of the system AND since the opponents didnt swap to the classes that where better vs us. 

I am talking  about classes/ professions not specializations man! you still CAN change your specialisation/build.! You can still balance your setup by changing builds. As i said from my games (i am playing around 300 in season) most of the time the match making system is doing very good balance of the classes and then the players ruin that balance by switching classes specially when that is the just before the match start so your team cannot react the the class change which the enemy team did , which can lead to very onesided match

Edited May 30, 2021 by razaelll.8324

[Locuz.2651]

10 minutes ago, razaelll.8324 said:

if you do give me a prove please)

 

It literally happens almost every match where ppl dont swap (to the right classes). 

 

Me on condi thief vs drazeh (multi world champ). Their entire team is zerker pretty much while we have weaver + core necro which are very sturdy in comparison. With us playing around those high sustain classes. +1 ing the ele on far + the necro mid. 

 

Its a pure win based on the matchup. The second i saw they didnt swap i knew it wouldve been a 100% win. 

 

 

[razaelll.8324]

10 minutes ago, Locuz.2651 said:

 

It literally happens almost every match where ppl dont swap (to the right classes). 

 

Me on condi thief vs drazeh (multi world champ). Their entire team is zerker pretty much while we have weaver + core necro which are very sturdy in comparison. With us playing around those high sustain classes. +1 ing the ele on far + the necro mid. 

 

Its a pure win based on the matchup. The second i saw they didnt swap i knew it wouldve been a 100% win. 

 

 

I am not saying that the match making system cannot place you in bad match up, i am saing that from my experience the opposite is much more common. And thats not a prove 1 video does not prove that the system will 100% place you in unwinnable matchups.

Class changing has its good and bad sides. 

Good side: change your class if the system palced you in bad match up;

Bad side: manipulate the system to gain advantage, switch to counter enemy just before the match starts  (advantage for your team) and the enemy team cant adjust to that change anymore because they see it 5 seconds before the match start and they cannot change anymore;

For me the bad side is much more commonly seen than the good one.

Edited May 30, 2021 by razaelll.8324

[Locuz.2651]

1 minute ago, razaelll.8324 said:

I am not saying that the match making system cannot place you in bad match up, i am saing that from my experience the opposite is much more common. 

 

Its 90% of the games where one of the two teams has a bad comp. Where they have to swap or its an auto loss.

 

Keep watching the vod and see. Very few games where a swap isnt a must. 

 

At lower rating it doesnt matter that much. So maybe thats why you see all the matchups that Anet gives us (pre classswap) as fine / equal? 

 

  

[razaelll.8324]

1 hour ago, Locuz.2651 said:

 

Its 90% of the games where one of the two teams has a bad comp. Where they have to swap or its an auto loss.

 

Keep watching the vod and see. Very few games where a swap isnt a must. 

 

At lower rating it doesnt matter that much. So maybe thats why you see all the matchups that Anet gives us (pre classswap) as fine / equal? 

 

  

if plat 1 , plat 2 is low rating for you then that might be the reason

But you are right here,  the higher the rating is the harder is to find players with close MMR and matching classes so there class changing is essential to balance the match up

Edited May 30, 2021 by razaelll.8324

[Locuz.2651]

Just now, razaelll.8324 said:

if plat 1 , plat 2 is low rating for you then that might be the reason

 

1342 isnt plat+ buddy 🙂

[razaelll.8324]

44 minutes ago, Locuz.2651 said:

 

1342 isnt plat+ buddy 🙂

i am not in plat at the moment but during placements i always end up in g2/g3 and then climb to plat

Edited May 30, 2021 by razaelll.8324

[Locuz.2651]

32 minutes ago, razaelll.8324 said:

i am nto in plat at the moment but during placements i aways end up in g2/g3 and then climb to plat

 

Im always legend ..start after placements in bronze. But legend at the end 🙂

[razaelll.8324]

10 minutes ago, Locuz.2651 said:

 

Im always legend ..start after placements in bronze. But legend at the end 🙂

Good for you, do you want me to make a statue of you?

Edited May 30, 2021 by razaelll.8324

[Stand The Wall.6987]

locking professions but allowing build swapping would be totally fine

[razaelll.8324]

31 minutes ago, Stand The Wall.6987 said:

locking professions but allowing build swapping would be totally fine

That is exactly my suggestion

[Locuz.2651]

1 hour ago, Stand The Wall.6987 said:

locking professions but allowing build swapping would be totally fine

 

So how many classes have multiple roles that are remotely viable at decent rating? Guard and ele comes to mind but support ele is on the weaker end of the spectrum and so is DH. 

 

Ideally your teams needs at least:

 

1 support

1 Teamfighter preferably with off heals (think scourge). 

1 sidenoder

1 roamer. 

 

Dont be surprised if youll end up in teams that cant swap to viable support, roamer or sidenoder roles. 

 

lets look at the tier list according to Drazeh; one of the better multiclassers in the game:

 

https://imgur.com/a/Erm1mgP

 

So matchmaking can be abused when ppl swap from class A to B? But if ppl swap from lets say Firebrand (absolute bottom) to core support guard (best support in the game) that is fine? 

 

Makes sense. 

 

Or if youre playing a class that S+ and get matched based on that....yet youre forced to play some other role in which u + class are closer to the bottom.  Also screws matchmaking. 

Edited May 30, 2021 by Locuz.2651

[Tinkerer.2167]

9 hours ago, razaelll.8324 said:

 

 

Why are you asuming peoples rating and skill based on emoji?

Because context exists

[razaelll.8324]

1 hour ago, Tinkerer.2167 said:

Because context exists

Mhm .... Ooookay

[Locuz.2651]

10 hours ago, razaelll.8324 said:

And below this, the algorythm is giving taking points based on profession stacked and so on, which means that after the algorithm scored your team based on the composition which you have currently it place you against a team with composition with similar score to yours, but when you change your class after that is done it means that your score is now different and its not relevant anymore (Example if your team has 2 mesmers the algorithm is trying to place your against another team with 2 mesmers). in this case you can slightly manipulate the match by queening  as underperforming class (warrior for example) and then switching to overperforming one (necro for example). Ofcourse this problem is also due to balance issue , but then if class swaping is allowed after the algorithm finished his job which basically make a part of that algorithm irrelevant then why do you even use that algorithm in first place. 

 

You totally misread the entire thing. Look at the configuration to see what it does. 

 

It tries to prefent classstacking as much as possible.  Thats all it does when it comes to differentiating professions.  

 

Youre making it sound as if professions are rated based on strength and thats tied to the MMR algorithm. This is not the case tho.