Why was Draconic Echo nerfed to 5 targets?

[aaron.7850]

I know I am late to the party with this changed, but I havent played my rev in a while and I just noticed this change.

Why? I loved playing healer herald in wvw, and they have essentially cut my usefulness by half. Whats the point anymore? Id figured it was 10 targets originally because sharing facet passives is not as impactful as Firebrand's spammable mantras, but I guess not.

[Dadnir.5038]

10 targets effects were judged to strong in WvW and not needed in sPvP so they changed traits that offered this possibility (december 2020). On another hand, facets are now baseline 10 targets in PvE, were it seem ANet think it's balanced to have 10 targets effects.

 

This change affected: Elementalist's shouts, Herald's facets, Warrior's warhorn skills. They forgot Ranger's spirit while scourge's number of target had already been reduced in WvW. Meanwhile they introduced mirage 10 targets alacrity later (Don't ask me what kind of logic they follow, it's beyond my understanding).

[DKRathalos.9625]

4 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

10 targets effects were judged to strong in WvW and not needed in sPvP so they changed traits that offered this possibility (december 2020). On another hand, facets are now baseline 10 targets in PvE, were it seem ANet think it's balanced to have 10 targets effects.

 

This change affected: Elementalist's shouts, Herald's facets, Warrior's warhorn skills. They forgot Ranger's spirit while scourge's number of target had already been reduced in WvW. Meanwhile they introduced mirage 10 targets alacrity later (Don't ask me what kind of logic they follow, it's beyond my understanding).

For mirage 10 target alacrity and 10 man alacren alacrity deemed won't be strong for WvW because of the build and the squad usually build around party of 5 so they let it pass. Plus I am not sure alac mirage could perform well at WvW, Alacren which exist long time before alac mirage is not even used at WvW despite the popularity for PvE.

[Dadnir.5038]

Just now, DKRathalos.9625 said:

For mirage 10 target alacrity and 10 man alacren alacrity deemed won't be strong for WvW because of the build and the squad usually build around party of 5 so they let it pass. Plus I am not sure alac mirage could perform well at WvW, Alacren which exist long time before alac mirage is not even used at WvW despite the popularity for PvE.

Doesn't mean that the logic behind their balancing isn't arguable. Why would 10 man might or regen be more OP then 10 man alacrity? Forgot to say that Mirage also give 4 stacks of might alongside alacrity.

[DKRathalos.9625]

10 man might means you spiking harder and on wvw often prioritize burst damage

So yeah in wvw Might is definitely more powerful than alac.
Also there is no good build for alac in wvw at least for now who knows in future, like how to put this...

Let's take alacren for example You gotta go for like diviner for providing perma alac, but that build will cost your survivability because you will be very squishy.
Lots of class using Marauder or Mix Marauder Berserker for WvW to increase HP and adding survival.
Then because you using Diviner your DPS won't be as high as the normal DPS, which mean your burst is low.

Another thought maybe, how about making it bunker? but what does bunker alacren do compared to the firebrand and scrapper pair which is very2 strong right now.

 

I don't know what is alac mirage build but there is 1 reason too why you never see Mirage in Squad play for WvW, I think their kit is not that good for zerging, look at Thief and Ranger as well.
The current Meta Class for WvW zerging are Herald, Scourge, Scrapper, Firebrand and Spellbreaker.
Chrono is just commander and 1 extra chrono. That's it if you got that on every party (per 5 party) you are strong no need for other class.

[Dadnir.5038]

My point is more about consistency in balance. I'll be honest, I don't care whether a profession or build isn't used wildly in zerg (I don't care if it's meta or not!), what I care about is that ANet dedicated a patch to get rid of most 10 man boon sources in december 2020 and in May 2021 they basically turned a blind eye on their past balance choice and introduced a new source of 10 man boons.

 

People are to focused on what's "meta". Something "meta" only work well within it's own "meta" environment. Scourge is only "meta" because there are boons to corrupt, Scrapper is only meta because there are conditions to convert, Firedbrand is meta because he is the best source of stability in a game which wasn't designed around stability having stacks but around stability stacking in duration... etc. If tomorrow Mesmer's Mantra are buffed to Guardian's Shouts level in WvW, maybe, mesmer will replace a part of the FB population (Good luck thought, Mantra of concentration alone would need a shave of CD and more stabs stacks just to reach "stand your ground!" level).

[DKRathalos.9625]

If that is about balance then they don't need to balance 10 man alac because it's not used in WvW.

They will need to do it later if they introduce viable alac in WvW.

 

OK then if not meta then OK let's talk about mechanic.

In PvE raid setting 10 ppl only consist 2 party of 5, so If alacren in P1 All in P1 get priority for 5 then the other 5 is going to be P2 ezpz.

In WvW setting You have P1-2-3-4-5-6, if Alacren in P1 then Everyone in P1 Got Alac sure but where is the rest of alac pulsed? I am not sure the alac will prioritize P2 rather than P3, maybe Anyone closer to alacren in proximity, therefore it's not quite as stable as in PvE setting, if you have information on this I would really like to know myself to this day I am still curious about what will be the rest of 5 alac pulsed aside from the primary party.

Also making 10 man per party to get stable alac won't be an option because it will cause the Stability boon to be unstable as in random 5 among 10. And since Stability is more beneficial than Alac in WvW it will get prioritized.

Which lead to Voice chat now, and cooldown management. For example you got 30 man in squad, you definitely don't want those 30 man talking because they will need to hear your command so For Example usually like 1 person Scrapper will represent all the other scrapper for activating Sneak Gyro. As commander will call stealth every scrapper will activate that sneak gyro at the same time, so when later the Scrapper represent said "Sneak Gyro Ready" it means all scrapper should have the sneak gyro ready.

Now imagine if that Representative get alac'ed and the cooldown significantly reduced like to about 8 secs difference than the other scrapper, when he said "ready" the other scrapper won't be ready so that could cause problem.

Same thing usually with Scourge Well Bomb, ideally if you coordinated good enough the wellbomb should go off at same time and when Rep said Well Ready which mean the other scourge is ready too.

 

Alacrity said to be like good when you put some ranged pressure and pirateshipping but once you go to the melee range and start the real fight it won't be that good.

[Aeolus.3615]

1 hour ago, DKRathalos.9625 said:

For mirage 10 target alacrity and 10 man alacren alacrity deemed won't be strong for WvW because of the build and the squad usually build around party of 5 so they let it pass. Plus I am not sure alac mirage could perform well at WvW, Alacren which exist long time before alac mirage is not even used at WvW despite the popularity for PvE.

 

Renegade has alac for 10 as well.

[DKRathalos.9625]

Just now, Aeolus.3615 said:

 

Renegade has alac for 10 as well.

Alacren = Alacrity Renegade....

[Dadnir.5038]

15 hours ago, DKRathalos.9625 said:

If that is about balance then they don't need to balance 10 man alac because it's not used in WvW.

They will need to do it later if they introduce viable alac in WvW.

 

OK then if not meta then OK let's talk about mechanic.

In PvE raid setting 10 ppl only consist 2 party of 5, so If alacren in P1 All in P1 get priority for 5 then the other 5 is going to be P2 ezpz.

In WvW setting You have P1-2-3-4-5-6, if Alacren in P1 then Everyone in P1 Got Alac sure but where is the rest of alac pulsed? I am not sure the alac will prioritize P2 rather than P3, maybe Anyone closer to alacren in proximity, therefore it's not quite as stable as in PvE setting, if you have information on this I would really like to know myself to this day I am still curious about what will be the rest of 5 alac pulsed aside from the primary party.

Also making 10 man per party to get stable alac won't be an option because it will cause the Stability boon to be unstable as in random 5 among 10. And since Stability is more beneficial than Alac in WvW it will get prioritized.

Which lead to Voice chat now, and cooldown management. For example you got 30 man in squad, you definitely don't want those 30 man talking because they will need to hear your command so For Example usually like 1 person Scrapper will represent all the other scrapper for activating Sneak Gyro. As commander will call stealth every scrapper will activate that sneak gyro at the same time, so when later the Scrapper represent said "Sneak Gyro Ready" it means all scrapper should have the sneak gyro ready.

Now imagine if that Representative get alac'ed and the cooldown significantly reduced like to about 8 secs difference than the other scrapper, when he said "ready" the other scrapper won't be ready so that could cause problem.

Same thing usually with Scourge Well Bomb, ideally if you coordinated good enough the wellbomb should go off at same time and when Rep said Well Ready which mean the other scourge is ready too.

 

Alacrity said to be like good when you put some ranged pressure and pirateshipping but once you go to the melee range and start the real fight it won't be that good.

 

First: Boon output always prioritize the party you're in whatever the gamemode.

 

Second: Alacrity isn't a tactical boon (which mean that it doesn't need to be timed or called), it's a boon that run behind the scene to reduce CDs and make skills available more often.

 

Third: Having lower CD is as useful at melee range than it is at range. Afterall, the more often you can use your invuln skills the more often your safe when you impact at melee range. The more often you can use your CC skills, the more chance you get to outdo the opponent stab... etc. It is always useful, not ponctually for ranged pressure.

 

Lastly: If it create issue with the representative, it just mean that you need an alacrity source in each party just like you'll need a stab source in each party. That's how you create a "meta raid", if the meta deem it more important to have 25% reduced CD then the meta adapt to get this 25% reduced CD. There is no such thing as: "it could create miscommunication", you only have: "It's the most effective tactic available so we go for it and do our best to make it work!". Do you perhaps think the current metas have been reach without such process? You'd be wrong if you do.

[DKRathalos.9625]

3 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

 

First: Boon output always prioritize the party you're in whatever the gamemode.

You miss the question Prioritize your party I know but maybe it will clearer this way
You are in a squad and there are 4 party
Party 1: A-B-C-D-E
Party 2: 1-2-3-4-5
Party 3: F-G-H-I-J
Party 4: 6-7-8-9-10

 

Now you are the B one as Alac renegade, now A-B-C-D-E surely will get a alacrity but where is the rest of 5 alacrity applied? Will it go to directly all party 2? or will it be random spread between maybe 1-2-3 and F-G?

 

6 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

Second: Alacrity isn't a tactical boon (which mean that it doesn't need to be timed or called), it's a boon that run behind the scene to reduce CDs and make skills available more often.

 

Third: Having lower CD is as useful at melee range than it is at range. Afterall, the more often you can use your invuln skills the more often your safe when you impact at melee range. The more often you can use your CC skills, the more chance you get to outdo the opponent stab... etc. It is always useful, not ponctually for ranged pressure.

Actually here is the thing, Alacrity is not effective at WvW because you can't maximize the efficiency. At PvE your alac is very high up time and really beneficial but for WvW you can't say the alac will take full benefit.

Let's say for example you cast alacrity here 6 pulses then after 6 pulses end you got about 10 secs alac, now your F4 will be on cooldown, then you go into melee range and boom, your alac got stripped/corrupted because there is a lot of strip and corupt at wvw.
Your F4 won't be up in time to apply another alac and your previous alac probably only apply 50% before getting corrupted, remember that alac corrupted into chill which may cause your skill slightly longer for CD.

 

Or maybe you want like "Oh then I will just cast alac when on melee range." Then around 6 pulses maybe on the fight 3 pulses will get stripped, so only 3 pulses left and it only like short time alac.

This is why if you still pirateshipping the alac will benefit because it will go full effect not corrupted but once you go to melee the effectivity goes down a lot, alac is so powerful at PvE because there is no boss currently stripping your boon and the application could be close to 100%.

 

So the question now is like which one will you take? Alac renegade who can't maximize the alac uptime or some other class maybe which have a big burst and can downed someone faster time? The DPS class doesn't need to be meta.

 

The WvW situation is very different from PvE standpoint so you have to understand that first. In the PvE you can happy lucky go with 90%+ uptime quickness and alac, can't say the same for wvw because there is a lot of corrupt and boonstrip.

[Aeolus.3615]

Bring back 10 ally targets  for herald :| outside pve :| 

 

 

small groups and zergs already have perma all boons, tghere even groups of 15-20 with 6-8 scrappers , perma superspeed and alot of boons by just one scrapper :P

Herald facets uptime will be used anyway or legend swaped.

 

cmon Anet!!!!

Edited June 16, 2021 by Aeolus.3615

[Dadnir.5038]

@DKRathalos.9625

I hope you realize that your whole argumentation can easily be shaken and destroyed just by mentioning the existence of this condition named Chill. Unless you don't know, Chill increase CD and grant alacrity (2s) when converted (By both meta scourges, F2, and meta Engineer/scrapper, purity of purpose). Which mean that, anyway, Alacrity is and have already been wildly present in your WvW squads, disrupting your "representatives" reliability (and we are talking about both melee and range gameplay here, in WvW).

 

Refusing to acknowledge the strength of a boon because you deem it a "PvE" boon and an "hindrance" in WvW is a tactical mistake. Not even knowing that the boon already flood your squads is a lack of awareness. Both are critical flaw in the metagame and it's enough to cost you victory. Because, yes, whether it's melee or range, whether it's converted into chill or converted from chill, alacrity is and have been there for a long time influencing victory and defeat.  

 

Thus, my point stand: There isn't more reasons for alacrity to have 10 targets than any other boons. ANet lack consitency in it's balancing and that give "unfair" advantages that might be exploited in futur meta.  

[Cyninja.2954]

34 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

ANet lack consitency in it's balancing and that give "unfair" advantages that might be exploited in futur meta.  

This.

 

Now if only mirage was in any way useful in a meta squad... which it is not (for WvW). Renegade at least provides decent enough utility besides alacrity to warrant a potential spot in a squad replacing the occasional power herald.

 

At least the mantra change made chrono and core mesmer a tad batter as commander again. Still outperformed by a Firebrand, but playable again in more relaxed squads.

 

As far as PvE, both still provide 10 player alacrity, so not sure what the fuss is about.

Edited June 17, 2021 by Cyninja.2954

[anduriell.6280]

10 targets should have never been a thing, a clearly power creep for PvE. 

[Cyninja.2954]

4 minutes ago, anduriell.6280 said:

10 targets should have never been a thing, a clearly power creep for PvE. 

10 Targets was one of the best changes made to PvE, especially for 10 player content.

 

Power creep sure, but at the same time it removed the necessity for mirror compositions which was holding back class diversity and optionality  big time.

 

Between power creep and mirror compositions, I'd personally rather go with power creep to allow more classes access to 10 man content. Remember when it was 2 chrono, 2 druids, 2 warrior + 4x? I do.

Edited June 17, 2021 by Cyninja.2954

[anduriell.6280]

5 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

10 Targets was one of the best changes made to PvE, especially for 10 player content.

 

Power creep sure, but at the same time it removed the necessity for mirror compositions which was holding back class diversity and optionality  big time.

 

Between power creep and mirror compositions, I'd personally rather go with power creep to allow more classes access to 10 man content. Remember when it was 2 chrono, 2 druids, 2 warrior + 4x? I do.

Party mirroring is just a result of not very well though raid and class design, the diversity was not improved by the 10 target skills but reduced.

 

You just replaced the mirror support  for one of the DPS meta making raids even easier. It did not open slots for other builds/classes. Powercreep is never a good solution just a lazy one. 

Edited June 17, 2021 by anduriell.6280
smol addition

[Cyninja.2954]

1 hour ago, anduriell.6280 said:

Party mirroring is just a result of not very well though raid and class design, the diversity was not improved by the 10 target skills but reduced.

No, class mirroring was the result of the necessity of specific boons and class buffs to be optimal. It has nothing to do with raid design but with the underlying combat system and benefits inherit in boons.

 

So unless you want to open the box of arguments why boons should be made useless, which is the only other way to remove boon necessity, making boon access easier is the best way to go.

 

Best past example was warrior and druid, which now allow for another dps spot or healer respectively if so desired. Before that, the best utility/healer would have been mandatory per group taking up 2 spots with the same class.

 

A more recent example is alacrity mirage, which can now be run instead of alacrev leading again to more class diversity in the alacrity department.

 

Removing fixed slots in a 10 player party setup IS the best approach to allow more classes access. It's literally the process of REMOVING or REDUCING necessities of class stacking in squad compositions.

Quote

 

You just replaced the mirror support  for one of the DPS meta making raids even easier. It did not open slots for other builds/classes. Powercreep is never a good solution just a lazy one. 

 

You are assuming every group is running full meta compositions. You are wrong.

 

You are also wrong that this did not open up slots for other classes to full-fill specific roles, which I explained above.

 

EDIT:

Case in point, if we did not have 10 man boons and class buffs, every single group would be either:

1. Hfb/QFB + Alacren (mirage) + warrior (in case banners are worth more than 1 dps)+ 2dps

2. Chrono + Druid (htemp) + warrior +2 dps

3. some variation of those above which allows for permanent quickness, alacrity, 25 might and fury + warrior +2dps

 

Every single support outside of this composition would immediately become a huge liability, far more than now, and would see even less play. In short: harsher class restrictions in place again leading to less diversity. That is even without adjusting for 1 of those 5 man setups seeing preferred play as we see in fractals pushing out the other completely, leading to even less diversity even among all boon providing comps. When was the last time you saw chrono+druid in T4+CMs exactly? Yeah, me neither.

Edited June 17, 2021 by Cyninja.2954

[DKRathalos.9625]

3 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

@DKRathalos.9625

I hope you realize that your whole argumentation can easily be shaken and destroyed just by mentioning the existence of this condition named Chill. Unless you don't know, Chill increase CD and grant alacrity (2s) when converted (By both meta scourges, F2, and meta Engineer/scrapper, purity of purpose). Which mean that, anyway, Alacrity is and have already been wildly present in your WvW squads, disrupting your "representatives" reliability (and we are talking about both melee and range gameplay here, in WvW).

 

Refusing to acknowledge the strength of a boon because you deem it a "PvE" boon and an "hindrance" in WvW is a tactical mistake. Not even knowing that the boon already flood your squads is a lack of awareness. Both are critical flaw in the metagame and it's enough to cost you victory. Because, yes, whether it's melee or range, whether it's converted into chill or converted from chill, alacrity is and have been there for a long time influencing victory and defeat.  

 

Thus, my point stand: There isn't more reasons for alacrity to have 10 targets than any other boons. ANet lack consitency in it's balancing and that give "unfair" advantages that might be exploited in futur meta.  

It's your argument which can be easily shaken, Purity of purpose now has 2 secs internal CD which mean you can't choose what condi to be converted into what boon. The alacrity provided via that conversion is just a bonus for like a few secs, not a primary source or reliable method.

And Scourge f2 only convert 1 too among those condi spam which mean you can't choose which condi converted into boon either.

 

It's you who don't understand the power of Boon There is a reason why Anet nerfed the Draconic Echo which belong to the Herald Spec which can grants Swiftness, Fury, Might over Alacrity.

Just so you know they nerf amount and duration for might, also duration for quickness and fury too for the balance patch, but never touch alacrity, why is that?
Swiftness will give instant benefit to allow your group move faster, and just by having 1 facet standby it's insta swiftness 10ppl firebrand doesn't need to cast staff3 that often.

Quickness, Fury and Might, will give insta benefit as in if you got those boon you can get somebody down because your skill cast faster and hit harder.

Alacrity however doesn't have the benefit of instant, it'a long run type boon. Marathon type, in the long run you will benefit the effect of alacrity because your skill can come up faster. If you just feel only 1-2 secs alacrity it won't change the cooldown much.

 

Ok let me ask you this then. Alacrity Renegade has been there for long time, let's say after the LWS4 episode 5 which give diviner status. Do you seriously think people has never been try to bring Alacrity Renegade into WvW?

I don't know your answer but IMO They tried but the result is not good enough, even Soulbeast which is not meta class still found a better success in roaming or pin snipping, in a zerg some commander ask to immobilize build.

Why do you think there is almost no one bringing Alacrity Renegade to WvW if you claim the alacrity is so powerful?

Anet just doesn't care about 10 man Alacrity because it's not making a show in WvW.

[Cyninja.2954]

1 hour ago, DKRathalos.9625 said:

It's your argument which can be easily shaken, Purity of purpose now has 2 secs internal CD which mean you can't choose what condi to be converted into what boon. The alacrity provided via that conversion is just a bonus for like a few secs, not a primary source or reliable method.

And Scourge f2 only convert 1 too among those condi spam which mean you can't choose which condi converted into boon either.

That change is literally not even 1 week old. Before that your argument did not apply, but let's move on.

Quote

Ok let me ask you this then. Alacrity Renegade has been there for long time, let's say after the LWS4 episode 5 which give diviner status. Do you seriously think people has never been try to bring Alacrity Renegade into WvW?

Alacrity renegade was run in some GvG setups with 2 scourge in same subgroup.

 

The main issue here being the off timer resulting from not all scourges/dps having the same access to alacrity. The other issue being the big amount of corrupts in larger fights again not guaranteeing  this boons uptime will be equal beyond access to it. It has nothing to do with the boon its self or how powerful it is but rather the inconsistency and dependence on coordinated bombs. At least in better organized squads.

 

Alacrity is a very powerful boon and if one could guarantee it is up the entire time to synchronize large scale bombs, it would see more use in WvW. Given that is not the case, the tradeoff is not worth it since the slowest cool-down dictates the bomb timing. It has nothing to do with how powerful the boon its self is but rather the "rules" of the game mode. In smaller scale it certainly saw/sees use because there the modes design is more manageable.

 

Think resistance, the boon is mildly useful in PvE, yet is of essential use in WvW (both pre and post change). The boon is neither more or less powerful between modes. It provides the same benefits, yet the unique aspects which are important to each mode shift its value tremendously.

Edited June 17, 2021 by Cyninja.2954

[DKRathalos.9625]

8 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

The main issue here being the off timer resulting from not all scourges/dps having the same access to alacrity. The other issue being the big amount of corrupts in larger fights again not guaranteeing  this boons uptime will be equal beyond access to it. It has nothing to do with the boon its self or how powerful it is but rather the inconsistency and dependence on coordinated bombs. At least in better organized squads.

This is what I am saying in few post above, Too much strip and corrupt to let Alacrity perform efficiently.

Edited June 17, 2021 by DKRathalos.9625